Rotation No Longer Has To Be A JoKe
by Nico on Jul 6, 2007 9:10 AM PDT
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PrintWho knows whether Rich Harden will be good for one, two, or three starts (more than three? c’mon!), but he could be around long enough to get us to Loaiza’s return—meaning the days of Kennedy and DiNardo could finally be over. This is good, as I believe the A’s simply, truly, absolutely cannot compete as long as the rotation is only three deep with pitchers that don’t make you hide under the bed until you hear the name “Casilla”.
Assuming that Harden, Loaiza, and the All-Star Break can at least combine to stop the A’s from having to start both Kennedy and DiNardo any more, the question becomes what to do with the two lefties after the All-Star Break.
I would like to see DiNardo stay in the rotation and Kennedy moved to the bullpen, simply because DiNardo can be a mediocre starter or a mediocre reliever, while Kennedy can be a mediocre starter or a good reliever. It doesn’t really matter which one starts because everyone has a mediocre 5th starter and no matter which way the A’s go they will be neither the exception nor alone. However, if used judiciously Kennedy could supplement a weakened bullpen most nicely in one of two possible roles:
- Kennedy could be used as a LOOGY, where there is reason to believe he would be every bit as reliable as Embree and Casilla. For the season, even after Kennedy’s recent series of rocky starts, left-handers are batting all of .130 against Kennedy and there aren’t too many LOOGYs doing better than that.
- Kennedy could be used as Harden’s “middle innings,” where he would inherit a lineup that was not stacked with right-handed batters—one which, in fact, would more likely be stacked with left-handed batters—and where he would be pitching early enough in the game to discourage pinch-hitting against him. In fact, given his short outing Wednesday why not have Kennedy follow Harden tomorrow?
Heck, if you really like “out of the box” thinking, how about this scenario, beginning on Saturday: On the days Harden pitches, Kennedy throws two innings or so following Harden’s exit. On the days before and after Harden pitches, Kennedy is not available, but for two days in between Harden’s starts, Kennedy is available for LOOGY duty.
A rotation of Haren, Blanton, Gaudin, Harden or Loaiza, and DiNardo, with a bullpen that has Casilla, Embree, and a legitimate lefty-killer, with Calero back healthy and Street on the way? Now you’re in a pennant race.
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Straight Outta Left Field
Meyer is being considered as a 5th starter, which I find very interesting. I know he hasn't been great lately but he at least has some big-league stuff. I believe that he has a "future" with the A's unlike the Braden, Komine, Windsor-types we discussed yesterday.
I will still go with my unpopular opinion. JoKe is the best option we have right now and I really believe it's by a wide margin. Throw stones everyone...
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jul 6, 2007 9:09 AM PDT reply actions
I think Meyer needs a full season
at AAA to get to know his stuff post-surgery, build up arm strength, etc. The Zitoesque pitch counts and inconsistent performances (few Ks, lots of Ks, am I pitching to contact or missing bats?) suggest to me that he needs all of 2007 to figure out how to be a successful major league pitcher in 2008. I'd see him as a leading candidate for the #5 spot out of spring training next year, but suspect he's not ready for the show at this moment.
KME
Meyer can benefit from learning from the great, wise, and omniscient Kendall if he comes up now. Let's face facts; Kendall can embrace a young pitcher with one arm while simultaneously smiting a dragon with his other arm. Not having Meyer in MLB while KME is emanating from behind the Coliseum home plate area could be the difference between Meyer becoming a Hall-of-Famer or a left-handed Jimmy Haynes. Just look at what Kendall has done for Windsor, Komine, Kennedy, DiNardo and Glynn. I say bring Meyer up now.
by BlameChannel53 on Jul 6, 2007 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Better yet
send Kendall to the Rivercats to work with the youngsters there :-)
by green star oakland on Jul 6, 2007 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Hey! I've been sig lined!
By no less than the highest simian authority on AN! Cool.
No way to disagree on Meyer
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jul 6, 2007 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Whoa... I mean if it ain't MEYER or someone
better than why not leave JoKe in there?
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jul 6, 2007 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Haven't I offered several reasons
in this very post? Geez, ohtobe21likehuston, someone's a bit distracted this morning by his shiny new Build A Bear!
My tix or bear haven't arrived. F'n Huston Street
I include his name in my sig and all I get are these lousy Nico suggestions.
Hey at least you offered up some options and they remind me of early Tony LaRussa.
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jul 6, 2007 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Nico, you're really creepy.
You were hiding in the back of our car last night, weren't you? We talked about something very much like this on the way home.
HEEZ IN UR KAR KBTZING ON UR CHAT
After reading the first paragraph,
I thought maybe but no way in heck A's mgmt goes with DiNardo over Kennedy in the starting rotation. Seems like they have had a stiffy for Kennedy since before Spring Training.
However, after reading your entire story, I like the idea even more. At least since he has been in Oakland, Kennedy has been much better out of the pen. I do not have stats in front of me but he seems quite a bit better against righties out of the pen (not sure about last year but seemed that way I think in '05).
And I think were you really sold me was bringing in Kennedy early after Harden starts (the first few anyway) against lefties which are not likely to be pinch hit for so early.
in a pennant race?
How will moving Kennedy to the bullpen improve the offense?
Snark aside, excellent argument, Nico.
But as for the pennant race -- the A's were hanging on by their fingernails when JoKe and iNardo were pitching above their talent levels, and we slipped back when they fell to earth. With the deficit we have to overcome, it'll take a lot more than the performances we were getting in the first third of the season.
Where is Brad Halsey? Foot in mouth disease?
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jul 6, 2007 9:42 AM PDT reply actions
reverse racism, to make up for Milton
I think the official word is,
"Sore left arm from reaching to place foot in mouth."
Outside the Box Thinking - Everyone Stays Healthy
5th Starter is needed on July 16th, July 24th and July 29th. Throw Kennedy in those starts. Heck, Loaiza might be ready by July 29th.
Then, it's going to be...
- Haren
- Blanton
- Gaudin
- Harden
- Loaiza
Bullpen (July 29th): Kennedy or Dinardo, Embree, Marshall, Casilla, Robertson/Lewis, Calero, Street
I think there's a 50/50 chance that Kennedy is dealt to another team. If Kennedy isn't traded, Dinardo will be sent to AAA.
(Side Bar: I'm not talking about injuries anymore)
That just made me a little uncomfortable
in the pants.
by methodrampage on Jul 6, 2007 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions
I like this except for Marshall. I'd keep Lenny
over him. I also don't see the need for Robertson or Lewis. I'd rather have Braden, or even Meyer in relief.
by WaddellCanseco on Jul 6, 2007 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions
The A's can't keep Marshall in the organization
without keeping him on the major league roster all of 2007. Remember, he's a AA pitcher pitching not one but two levels up. I assume he'll be at AA or AAA next year. To have kept him all season while the staff is so beat up, the A's must think highly of him as an asset two years down the road.
Robertson has to be the happiest injured guy
around. Doesn't he make MLB salary while on the DL?? That is what Brad Halsey was trying to accomplish but Robertson came in the back door and swept the idea right out of his tinker.
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jul 6, 2007 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Got sarcasm?
by ohtobe21likehuston on Jul 6, 2007 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions
I thought I was helping
This is why most days I'm not nice to people.
Sheesh, I must be dyslexic--
I read that as "LOL"!
Good argument,
hadn't thought about it in those terms. I think Kennedy is a bit better than DiNardo as a starter, but not by too much, and Kennedy could be pretty valuable in a thin bullpen. I'm sold.
I guess I have a hard time believing
despite what the Chron is reporting that the A's will move Kennedy to the bullpen. As a starter:
-he has more value in a trade
-bigger potential to be a B (or A?) type free agent
Even if he would serve the A's better out of the bullpen, I have to believe the front office is thinking about these things
I dunno 'bout that
It seems to me that Kennedy will perform much better as a LOOGY, and that any team trading for him would likely be using him in the 'pen anyway -- it ain't as if other teams don't have scouts who can tell them that Kennedy can't get righties out. Or as if they can't look up his splits on the web and discern the same thing.
Remember, Kennedy was inserted into the rotation not to increase his trade value, but because of injuries (mostly foreseeable, if not preventable, injuries, but anyway ...). I think if Beane had simply wanted to maximize Kennedy's trade value, he'd have just left him in the 'pen.
The more Kennedy is exposed as a starter, the lower his trade value dips.
Most of that is true, but Kennedy was given the
5th starter job, before ST started. He was slated as a starter from the start.
by theblackpearl on Jul 6, 2007 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree
Kennedy is likely to have a much better ERA as a reliever, and relievers have great trade value given that many of the contenders are in need. I think Billy has Kennedy in the rotation because he doesn't like the alternatives.
by BlameChannel53 on Jul 6, 2007 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions
I think if Beane had wanted to
maximize Kennedy's trade value, he would have shipped him off at the end of May. Now that Kennedy's mediocrity has been re-exposed, he'll have more value pitching well out of the bullpen than poorly in the rotation, IMO.
Michael "Mad Dog" Madsen
Anyone know why he only pitched 3 innings last night?
Jul 05 @FRE
3.0 Innings
2 Hits
1 ER
2 BB
3 K's
mad dog? really?!?
i'm entirely uncomfortable with this 'mad dog' nickname. you guys know that's mark madsen's nickname as well right?
i'll never get that image out of my head of madsen dancing with shaq in LA after they won the NBA championship. i feel dirty just thinking about it...
He was on a pitch count, so he can pitch in the
All-star game, I think.
FRESNO -- Before River Cats starting pitcher Michael Madsen heads to the All-Star Futures Game on Sunday at AT&T Park in San Francisco, he had some work to do Thursday night, albeit on a 50-60 pitch count.
by theblackpearl on Jul 6, 2007 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Amen!
I agree, put Kennedy in the bullpen! Also, if I may dare to dream, maybe with a little luck we can have a rotation of Haren, Blanton, Gaudin, Harden and Loiaza! "Bazooka" Joe can come out of the pen to face lefties, Di Nardo can go into long relief on the rare occasions that one of these starters flops, Huston Street is in the pen, Casilla steps in for Duke and our long pitching nightmare will be over!!
They did one heck of a job holding down
the starting spots. They do belong in the bullpen though and when they go down there they should hopefully help us there. This has been a crazy season with ups and downs I think all of our questions were answered. For instance we now know that Harden can't stay healthy, we also know that Bobby Crosby can (unfortunatly he sucks though). Chad Guadin has emerged as a very good starting pitcher maybe a poor mans "Huddy", although I believe he has better numbers than Huddy right now.
by 3Chavy3 on Jul 6, 2007 11:49 AM PDT reply actions
Bobby Crosby better get hot now...
Or I'm going to make a BoCro voodoo doll and stick pins in the kneecaps and put him on the DL.
Then Scutaro can play SS every day, hit .260 and be his bad-ass clutch self
by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Jul 6, 2007 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Glad to see
at least one other person considered the possibility that Harden and Loaiza can get healthy and stay that way for half a season.
Loaiza can Harden can't!
by 3Chavy3 on Jul 6, 2007 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions
For most of the year
I was saying we don't really even want Loaiza back.
I think I'm ready for him now.
Hopefully the Loaiza who can hit the low 90s
on his pitches and not the guy that was tossing 81 MPH Jamie Moyer fastballs up there at the beginning of last year. I want to see a healthy Loaiza.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Jul 6, 2007 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions
How about...
We just leave Kennedy on the side of the road in MIN. That would make me happy!
I know that isn't going to happen, but the reality is, I just don't trust him. I don't trust him to start, I don't trust him to releave, I don't even trust him as a Loogy! He always looks like he is struggling and he seems to get "lucky" outs. So I personally would prefer we just give Kennedy a big salute and say "See Ya!"
by BobbyCrosbysGirl on Jul 6, 2007 12:27 PM PDT reply actions
Fortunately, he always manages
to look like he either doesn't understand or doesn't care, which really helps!
Kennedy
When he was a Relief Pitcher last season, his fastball was in the 91-93 MPH range consistently. When he starts, he paces himself, and loses about 5 MPH's.
Kennedy the Reliever, and Kennedy the Starter are two totally different pitchers. I really liked JoKe has a reliever last season (when healthy). If he's not traded, then put him back in the bully where he belongs for the rest of his career (unless Tampa Bay wants to try him again as a Starter)
I love this idea.
Kennedy is a good pitcher when he is facing lefties and I have always felt a very valuable pitcher out of the pen. He's just not starter material. Of course, as you said it all hinges on Rich and his health...but it was nice to see you( Nico) come back with a fighting spirit instead of the defeatist posts of recent days. The Halos are in a slump and if our guys get hot? We can make up some ground here in July!
Don't get me wrong, IM4 and y'all
I think the A's may still make a run at the WC or division--this team is never to be counted out entirely. My main feeling was that the team, as is (minus Harden, Loaiza, Duke, and Street) cannot compete, and my fear was that these guys were not coming back soon enough to give the A's the chance for a good run. I don't know if two months with them is enough, or whether we might get 2.5 out of Street and 2 out of Loaiza...(Not really waiting up for Harden, but again who knows?...)
first off
kennedy is garbage. Dinardo is worse. They both cant throw strikes.
The fastest DiNardo can throw is 84 which is basically like a batting practice fastball. The guy is horrible. Did anyone watch the Blue Jays tee off on him? Vernon Wells was takin batting practice. Ridiculous.
I dont want to see these guys anymore.
by chavyizdamn3 on Jul 6, 2007 2:12 PM PDT reply actions
Moyer tops out at 84,
and he's done ok. I think that's a pretty simplistic reason to discard someone. And if Kennedy is garbage, why are lefties hitting .130 against him?
What I mean
is Kennedy is garbage as a starter. I have no problem with him coming out of the bullpen to pitch against a lefty.
And Jamie Moyer actually hits his spots. DiNardo does not at all. If opposing batter were patient with him, he would walk them all as we've seen in a few games already.
by chavyizdamn3 on Jul 6, 2007 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Did anyone else,
besides me, think that Dinardo was actually on for the first 2 innings of his last start? I got up at the end of the top of the second to go up to the kitchen to fix some food and as I get up I say to myself, "Wow I bet this is going to be Dinardo's best start yet." He was hitting that inside target with precision every time, and he was already racking up the K's. I come back to my room and I hit myself on the head for jinxing it.
However, I think Lenny should look at the first two innings of that last start, figure out what he was doing right, and then apply that to his next start because that was a great 2 innings to build on.
Yup--especially the 1st inning
After the 1st inning, I thought he was on his way to an above-average start, not on his way to allowing 7 straight hits. But it was the bobbled comebacker that caused me to heave my dinner, along with parts of lunch.
Playoff?
A's are 6 games out from the wild card (41/44, Detroit is 49/34), with 77 games left. They probably will need 95 wins just to have a chance at the wildcard. So they need to go at least 51 and 26 the rest of the way, basically 2/3.
Hope the 1-4 starters can win 75% of their decisions, so far Haren, Blanton, and Gaudin are averaging just under 75% (26/9 in 54 starts), and assuming Harden comes back and pitches like he can. Assume that the 1-4 starters get 64 starts out of the 77 games, and the #5 guy starts 13 games, the 1-4 starters could get about 31 wins in 41 decisions, and the other 23 game are ND and go to the pen. So after excluding the wins from our 1-4 starters (winning at a 80% clip), we still need to get another 20 wins out of the 13 games from the #5 starter, and the 23 ND games from the pen, this is a 56% winning percentage, looks hard. Right now Kennedy and DiNardo don't look like 0.500 pitchers.
The point is that our 1-3 starters has done as much as they can do. And to get in to the playoff, our offense have to score more runs so they can turn their ND into wins. And also they need more reliable pitching out of the 5th starter.
Is everyone as thoroughly disgusted with MLB.com
as I am?
Gawd, all the flashing crapola, the over-and-above overhype of ONE GAME (the all-star game). Now they're trying to sell lounge chairs on the site.
COMMERCE!
COMMERCE!
COMMERCE!
COMMERCE!
Thank goodness for AN and all who write here. Too bad the A's cannot separate themselves from the overbloated commercial travesty. Is MORE! MORE! MORE! always the "answer"??? As well as the question?
by One won lost won on Jul 6, 2007 4:10 PM PDT reply actions
I don't even pay attention to MLB.com
now that I have THE JETER CHANNEL! All Jeter, all day long!
Frankly, the only reason I ever watch the All-Star Game is that there isn't any other baseball game on. If there were a Royals-Devil Rays game competing with the it, I'd have to read about the ASG in the paper the next day.
I guess now would be the wrong time ...
... to try and sell you my hardcover book of poetry, eh?
(Blez, you might want to hold off on instituting the AN membership fee for another week.)
How close is Kennedy to being an A Free Agent?
Unless the A's make a serious run at the division, it would sure be nice to get Kennedy A status and net a first round draft pick for him.
Tough to say
Kennedy has split time between Starting and Relieving over the last 3 years and I'm not sure how his performance in those roles will be weighed. Elias will either rate him as a RP or a SP based on his work from 2005-2007. He earned a low B grade as a RP after 2006, but remember that JoKe spent all last season in the pen. If Elias grades him as a SP then he'd probably have to pitch as well as Haren did in the 1st half to have any chance at a Type A grade.
Maybe better than Haren's 1st half.
Well, that went well
Presenting Joe Kennedy-- Reliever!
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