A cold perspective of the Oakland Athletics
by Brian Durack on Jul 31, 2007 8:33 PM PDT
81 comments
I figured the best time to post this would be after the trading dealine has passed, as that is the time it is most relevant. For quite some time I have had a way of looking at the Athletics that I suspect many of you don't and perhaps haven't even considered.
I don't care about a single member of the A's. To me they are simply an employee with a specific job to do. Their humanity is totally irrelvant to me and is just an unfortunate fact. All I care about is how much they contribute to the A's winning. I would trade every player on the 40-man roster for 40 different players if it meant a 1% upgrade.
I don't care what kind of horrible crimes an Athletic commits in his off-time, as long as it doesn't downgrade his ability, nor keep him from playing. I would accept Barry Bonds, A.J. Pierzynski or Elijah Dukes if it meant our team would become better.
This deadline I was hoping they would trade every single player whose contract is up with year, without exception. I don't care if we didn't win another game all year. In fact, I prefer it. If we don't make the playoffs, I would just prefer to lose as many games as possible to improve our draft picks.
I don't want to meet any of the players. Nick Swisher, Dan Haren, whatever. They aren't people, they are baseball players. I don't care what they have to say about anything, I only want them to hit or pitch as well as they can. Their opinions, charity work or whatever else that is good about them is irrelvant to me. Help us win games or get out.
My favorite players? Whoever contributed the most to our last win. My least favorite? You get the point.
Yeah, I don't have any feelings and am pretty much a bastard. But I wouldn't have it any other way.
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Do you care about compensation picks?
Because Shannon Stewart and possibly Mike Piazza will fetch one.
by PaulThomas on Jul 31, 2007 8:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well....
Last year Piazza was rated as a type A catcher. I'm not sure what he will be rated as this year, but he will be a borderline A/B as a 1B/DH/OF. With his injury time I would bet a type B.
As for Stewart, I'm not sure why everyone thinks he will bring picks. I think I heard Billy say he thought he would be a type A, but I don't buy it. Last year he was a low-type C. He would have to raise his rating from last year's 45.278 to somewhere around 60 just to be a type B. Even with a nice 2007 I don't see that happening.
Kotsay will likely drop from the mid-B he was last year.
Joe Kennedy was a low-B last year. He will have to raise his 50.00 last year to close to 70 this year to raise to type A, so I think he can be pegged as a B too.
From where I sit I see us getting two sandwhich picks between those 4.
by Brian Durack on Jul 31, 2007 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stewart
Last year he ranked as a high type C. The requirements for Type B have gotten tougher but I think he's got a shot if he doesn't slow down.
by grover on Aug 1, 2007 12:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stew
The problem is that his numbers last year were really poor (mostly due to a lack of ABs), and that his 2005 stats kept his rating up. Obviously I don't know the magic formula Elias uses, but I assume it is something like production X ABs. Probably something like runs, RBIs, XBHs multiplied times ABs. Obviously a horribly oversimplified method, but that is probably the gist of it.
The only place he has significantly increased his stats are in walks and home runs (at least he is in pace to). Yes these are hugely important to the A's, but I suspect walks are less important to Elias. His doubles will be down, his runs probably up, RBI unchanged. I'm just saying that I have trouble seeing that will generate a 33% improvement in his rating that he will likely need to make it to type-B. One thing that may prove me wrong would be if 2007 stats are weighted more heavily than 2006. I really don't know enough about the process to say with certainty.
Do I hope that he jumps to type B? Yes, but I'm not banking on it.
And doing a little more reading on it, Catfish Stew seems to think because Piazza had 99 games at catcher last season, the A's will try and keep him under 99 games at DH this year so he will qualify as a catcher and not DH/1B/OF. He ponders if the reason they had him try and get back into shape as a catcher was so his DH days would be below his catcher days. Interesting stuff. That is all assuming that whatever position you played the most of the past 2 seasons is where you qualify, which I don't think anyone knows with 100% certainty.
Anyway, just some thoughts. I certainly reserve the right to be 100% wrong.
by Brian Durack on Aug 1, 2007 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'm the same way, or at least try to be
except for travis buck, he's dreamy. kidding.
i mean, i still hate barry bonds, but i stated all winter that i wanted the a's to sign him. i prefer to root for players i like, but i'd still want to trade them for better players that i dislike.
by xbhaskarx on Jul 31, 2007 9:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
They may well have the chance next season
I gather that Bonds is the sticking point there, not the A's FO.
by PaulThomas on Jul 31, 2007 10:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In that case
why do you root for them to win at all?
Isn't the real objective to make money?
Let's all root for Lew Wolff's pockets to enlargen!
or better yet, what makes the A's any different from any other company?
How about we search the internet for business news every morning instead of the boxscores, and we can all root for AT&T to make more money!
by King Richard on Jul 31, 2007 10:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Count me in!
I'm also up for tracking the Billboard Top 40 and formulating algorithms for counting jellybeans in a jar.
by Ray of Lite on Aug 1, 2007 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ooh, and chants
We could have chants:
Let's go Halliburton! (duh duh duh duh duh)
Let's go Halliburton! (duh duh duh duh duh)
by King Richard on Jul 31, 2007 10:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This is the logical way to look at all of this...
...but it's not the realistic way to do it.
I may feel detached from the team right now, but it is impossible for me not to develop a stronger rooting interest for some people over others, impossible for me not to care too much when things are going great or going awfully, impossible for me to just shut down all of my interest and think of players as parts of a machine.
It just doesn't work like that.
by Flashfire on Jul 31, 2007 10:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I was just in Portland, OR
The NBA's TrailBlazers were once one of the most successful small-market teams in all of major league sports. In recent years there has been a litany of transgressions involving various players which have completely turned off the community. The quality of the team has collapsed, attendance has plummeted and people talk of the need for the franchise to reconnect with the community.
I don't follow the NBA that closely, so I don't know many of the details that have led to the team becoming known as the "JailBlazers". But as a fan of other sports spending some time in a city where the NBA is the only big-league show in town, that appears to be a classic case of why character should and does count.
by Soaker on Jul 31, 2007 10:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Portland's not going to suck for long
Brandon Roy and Greg Oden are incredible players already. You
by PaulThomas on Jul 31, 2007 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
can thank the "random" draft lottery for that
I don't know why it posted midsentence.
by PaulThomas on Jul 31, 2007 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
suck?
by Flashfire on Jul 31, 2007 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, their ownership has figured it out
Huge billboard of Roy and Oden outside the Rose Garden. "Time to return to Rip City" or something like that is the slogan.
I'm using the Blazers as a case history of why I don't think Brian's disregard of character is appropriate in sports. Now in investing, his approach is wonderful. When I hire a mutual fund manager I do not care whether he or she is investing in tobacco companies, oil companies, defense contractors, whatever. I want them to make money for me and it's up to the manager I hire to determine how best to do that. If a manager invests in a bunch of "politically correct" stocks and underperforms, I fire them. So I think Brian's approach is right in some circumstances...but it's not right for a sports fan.
by Soaker on Jul 31, 2007 10:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmm...
If I were to hire a mutual fund mananager, I would care explicitly what companies they were investing in. I would market my fund as one that invests in only the greenest and most progressive companies, and is willing to take smaller returns, knowing that we're good corporate citizens.
I think that in sports, if you don't care about the players, and you only care about the team winning, it's inefficient to pick a team and root for them, specifically. It would be much easier and more efficient to just be a fair weather fan of whoever is winning. Red Sox one year, Yanks another, A's if they're healthy, etc... You'll never be disappointed, and your team will always win.
by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Aug 1, 2007 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I enjoy the game more when I
feel attached to the people, and their personalities, and not just the outcome. In seasons like this, it becomes all the more important, because the outcome sucks no matter how I look at it.
by Nico on Jul 31, 2007 10:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I usually wnjoy diaries by you, B.
But there is only one word for this one. JOYLESS.
by IM4Oakgal on Jul 31, 2007 11:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I tried this approach once
But my irrational man-love for Lance Blankenship brought me back to a place of caring.
by grover on Aug 1, 2007 12:35 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That's your best. post. ever.
by McFood on Aug 1, 2007 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats a video game
The chemistry and personality has a lot to do with a baseball team. I mean who wants to root for a bunch of nameless scrubs.
by panamanianexpress on Aug 1, 2007 2:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
"video game" =
perfect description of what Brian seems to want.
by Poppy on Aug 1, 2007 8:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
MVP 2005 is still out there.
by Flashfire on Aug 1, 2007 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I actually played video games,
I might get the reference... LOL
Not that this has to do with video games, but... I did try fantasy baseball this year (and yes, my selections were numbers-based, not personality-based, and I've even made trades & adjustments... as best I can). It didn't even take half the season for me to get bored with it, and not just because I was persistently in 8th or 9th place. It's just boring for me to try caring only about stats. I actually forgot all about it for a couple of weeks, didn't make moves to compensate for guys slumping, serving suspensions, going on the DL... and my "team" dropped to 11th. Oh well. I'll take the rollercoaster ride of live games played by an actual live team, thanks... popups, strikeouts, errors and all.
by Poppy on Aug 1, 2007 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
MVP 2005 might be the best baseball video...
...game ever, that's all.
There are a few others here who swear by that.
by Flashfire on Aug 1, 2007 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay.
And FWIW, I don't see anything wrong with people who do enjoy video games, fantasy, stats-tracking, etc. I just don't get it, personally, much as they don't get why anyone should "care" about players that are truly just strangers to fans. But to each his/her own entertainment... makes no difference in the big picture.
by Poppy on Aug 1, 2007 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love video games.
I used to play fantasy sports but burnt out on keeping up with them.
I don't expect real life to mirror a video game, though.
by Flashfire on Aug 1, 2007 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, that is a rather
cold perspective on the A's. When it comes to trading players, I can agree with you in taking on anyone who can improve the team, even Bonds, LOL.
Hopefully some of the first year drafted players will come around and improve the team rather quickly... And the A's hopefully will keep their players who could net them some extra draft picks. Certainly they could use some opportunities to get better talent, assuming they use them properly.
And like others, I like Buck and some of the kids and find myself rooting for them to improve and help the team even more.
Always enjoy your articles, Brian...
by Charlie Brown on Aug 1, 2007 6:49 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Brian
Excellent stuff ... I couldn't agree more ... like you, I don't want bad stuff to happen to anyone, but I always figured "hey, they don't know me, and I don't know them, so do what you're paid to do and help the team win!"
I've always been amazed at how attached some fans get ... I figure once you're 16 or so, you ought to realize that the players could care less what you think, how cute you think they are, how nice or how mean you think they are, etc. They care about cashing their paycheck and going home ... like us, it's not like they want anything bad to happen to you, but they don't really care because they don't know you!
Just win ballgames -- what you do off the field is none of my business -- if you hit .300 and help the team win, but you're a jerk ... great. It's not like I want to talk to you anyway. Especially if you're hittin' two-forty.
by Vacafan on Aug 1, 2007 8:38 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
hmm...
yeah, a lot of players just do their time and cash their checks and get by, always giving their 85%, just like a lot of workers just slack through and wait for their weekends and their checks.
On the other hand, there are some players who love the game, and even if they weren't in the pros, would be stars on their beer league team weeknights and Sundays. They have a passion for what they do.
Our two newest HOFers are great examples. Mr. Gwynn and Mr. Ripken didn't retire and leave the game. They still work just as hard on baseball as they ever did, it's just that they're teachers now instead of players... Ripken isn't making any money running his youth baseball foundation, and Gwynn isn't making big bucks as a college coach, but they still do it.
by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Aug 1, 2007 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Comments
I have enjoyed reading the comments to this, both positive and negative.
I just want to point out that this isn't the fan style that I chose. It probably was shaped by my personality, but it just is what it is. I don't think it makes me any less of a fan because this is the way I look at things. Trust me, a failed season falls really hard on me, but I just want to muscle through it and move on as quick as possible to prepare for next year.
by Brian Durack on Aug 1, 2007 9:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, I think it's an "age thing" too -
I've been following the team since the early-70's, and when I was a kid, I really cared about Campy, and Vida, and Blue Moon, et al.
But as you get older, things just change. It makes me feel kind of silly to really get wrapped up in a kid half my age, who'll sleep just fine tonight in spite of how the team is doing ... while I'm tossing and turning over another heart-breaking loss.
Nope, I root for the laundry. If it says "Athletics" on the front then I cheer for you ... if it doesn't, then I don't. The persons inside the jersey come and go ... since I always "stay" it makes it easier to separate myself from the actual player. (Although I will always have a "soft spot" for Stewart, Tejada, Rickey, and, dare I say it, #33.)
by Vacafan on Aug 1, 2007 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Swisher?
And Shannon Stewart hasn't even been here a full season yet. But you're right, they're both really nice.
by Poppy on Aug 1, 2007 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it makes you feel any better...
I don't start rooting for whatever team my favorite players go to when they leave Oakland. I still check on the player and hope he does well in ways that won't hurt the A's... and if his team comes to the Coliseum, I give him some applause when he's introduced in the lineup and maybe 1st AB, but that's all. Don't worry, no actual laundry-allegiance-shifting takes place. I just mourn my loss and move on to love again. ;)
by Poppy on Aug 2, 2007 6:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
#33?
I'm not sure if you meant Andy Tomberlin, Damon Mashore, TJ Mathews, Marcus Jones, Mike Venafro, Jeremy Fikac or maybe Nick Swisher.
by Flashfire on Aug 1, 2007 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't care about the players personally either
I have no need to meet any of them and agree with what you said in your diary except for the 3rd and 4th paragraphs (and trading 40 for 40 in the 2nd paragraph). I have a difficult time rooting for somebody who's a terrible citizen off the field and I don't want the A's to lose every game the rest of the year and deal every player whose contract is up. I like year to year continuity and a positive finish to the season builds good feelings going into the offseason.
As I said above I think your philosophy is extremely well suited to the world of investing and I bet you have a real aptitude for that.
by Soaker on Aug 1, 2007 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For mine, you're missing the best part of ball.
In 2004, I saw every single game of the Vancouver Canadians minor league season. I met the vast majority of the players a bunch of times, got to know them, heard them tell their stories, met their parents, went out on the town with them (heck, I nearly got on the team bus for a road trip), and rode the highs and lows right alongside them.
That season took me from Brian (a guy who was there for the wins and wins only) to an enthusiast for the team - a guy who takes the time to not just see a bunch of games every season, but follow those former players through the system, and blog the heck out of the team.
In 2005, I saw most of the team's games and met some of the players, and the same effect took hold.
But in 2006, real life interfered (baby and growing business) and I didn't have time to see many games, nor meet many players. This season there are new owners in place, the old staff are largely gone, a few ballpark friends have moved on, the players no longer sign autographs after every game so conversation opportunities are reduced, and because most of the players from those earlier seasons are now elsewhere, I've struggled to connect with the team emotionally. I've been to maybe 10 games as a result.
I still follow the team, still care about the wins, but admittedly the passion isn't what it once was. I have to look up whether a player is a lefty or righty. I couldn't tell you where the lead-off hitter went to school. I don't know any clubhouse nicknames. I still love the team, but the lack of a bond with the players as people means I'm not getting nearly as much out of it as I once did.
So in short, I understand where you're coming from because I started out there, but I'll tell you with no doubt in my mind, it's when you really do connect with those players as people that you get the most out of watching baseball.
And until you get past the business aspect of the baseball experience and realize that our guys are actually guys that are worth getting to know (unlike your Carl Everett's or Barry Bonds's or Kenny Rogers's), you'll never know how much you're short-changing yourself by ignoring that side of the team.
That said, I'm pissed off Billy didn't trade Chavez at the deadline. Fuck that guy, seriously.
by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2007 10:01 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep. Especially when you get to know someone...
...down at the lower levels, you're probably never going to merely think of them as just another cog in the machine.
by Flashfire on Aug 1, 2007 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Key point of your story ....
a minor-league team. Totally different.
by Vacafan on Aug 1, 2007 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except for the fact that some of those...
...minor leaguers eventually end up with the big club.
You can't just expect someone to suddenly stop having more of a vested interest in that player he knows because they're at the highest level now.
by Flashfire on Aug 1, 2007 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's not a problem if you're a giants fan
by xbhaskarx on Aug 2, 2007 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, it makes my point.
But the connection you make with those guys as people is what makes you give a damn enough about them to care what they do in full season ball, be it in Stockton, Sacramento or Oakland.
I haven't spoken to Nick Blasi since 2004 - he's not on any top prospects list, he's rarely mentioned by anyone here, but I check his box scores in AAA every night because he's a good guy, he has a good approach to the game, and I want him to keep up his run at the bigs - not because he's a Robnett-like high upside-guy, but because I'm rooting for him to keep the dream going.
Dallas Braden may only ever end up being league average as a relief pitcher in the majors, but I know where he came from, and how he got there, and what every game in the bigs means to him, so I want him to succeed more than any random other pitcher you could throw out there. More than wanting a win, I want that guy to succeed, because when he does, it's another chapter in a great story that is his life thus far.
Kurt Suzuki was one of those guys I got to know in 2004, so I can enjoy his exploits in the majors on a whole other level from most. Travis Buck was one of those guys in 2005. Jason Windsor, Danny Putnam, Robnett, Herrera, Petit, Baisley, Everidge, Mitchell, Sulentic - they all have stories that make them worth rooting for.
I'm glad I know those stories, because if I was just rooting for laundry... well, then I'd be an Angels fan, wouldn't I?
by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2007 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand
if you actually "know" a person ... I mean, know him like he would have you over for dinner "know" him ... I certainly don't expect anyone to be "neutral" if there is an existing relationship ... but knowing "someone's story" is a little shaky -- don't get me wrong, you're entitled to feel however you'd like -- but this isn't "knowing" someone.
Everyone's got a story ... everyone who's ever played baseball has a story ... everyone who sits in the stands has a story ...what you don't know is the other side of it.
I guess what I'm saying is, a player "is worth rooting for" because he plays for my team. If he plays for the A's, that means "he's worth rooting for." But someone who plays baseball isn't more special or worth rooting for than anyone else -- on the field or in the stands. Again, it isn't as if I dislike anyone, it's just that these guys are going to be playing somewhere else eventually, and there will be new guys wearing the uniform ... that's why I root for laundry ... I'm loyal to the A's, not to anyone individual.
I hate the Giants with a passion -- not anyone personally -- just the Giants. But if tonight all the A's became Giants, and all the Giants became A's, I'd still love the A's and hate the Giants. It has nothing to do with the players. Hell, they're here today, gone tomorrow -- right along with their "stories."
by Vacafan on Aug 1, 2007 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You really love bunny ears, don't you?
by Flashfire on Aug 1, 2007 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Explain that to me
sorry, I don't get it. Bunny ears?
by Vacafan on Aug 1, 2007 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ahhhhhh
you know I didn't realize that ... that is kinda "weak." :-)
by Vacafan on Aug 1, 2007 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, so maybe it's known more as "finger quotes"
;-)
by Flashfire on Aug 1, 2007 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
AIR quotes
But I like "bunny ears" better because... you know... it's cute.
by Poppy on Aug 2, 2007 6:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless they're evil vorpal bunny ear quotes
by Flashfire on Aug 2, 2007 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
See, that's where we differ.
I like the A's, but I REALLY like the guys who play for the A's (and run the A's), and that makes the difference for me.
If they swapped rosters with the Giants, I'd be a Giants fan. I could not, would not, ever, root for Bonds.
And before anyone says 'Canseco' and 'McGwire', I didn't root for the A's back then. Wouldn't. Couldn't.
by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2007 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
Yup, you're right ... everyone's different, I guess ... it's kind of interesting what makes a fan ... we're all different. My first reaction was to say (in regards to Canseco and McGwire,) "well, you haven't been a fan long enough, that's why you could switch like that," but I know that wouldn't be fair, either.
One of the first basketball players I ever heard of was Walt Frazier -- so when I was 7, I became a Knicks fan -- I was telling someone just a couple months ago, how, for the first time in my life, I wanted to stop being a Knicks fan and switch my loyalty to the Warriors. But I knew I couldn't. Even if I tried, I could not stop being a Knicks fan. And I mean that sincerely ... the way I look at it is "I'm stuck," I'm an A's fan for the rest of my life, no matter what. It has absolutely nothing to do with the players -- it has everything to do with the uniform.
I know this sounds "old," but when I was a kid, you picked your team, and that was it. That's your team. Forever. (That's why I hate it -- absolutely hate it -- when people say, "Well I like the A's and Giants and Mets," or, "I don't root for teams, I root for players." Or,and this is the worst, "I used to be a Tigers fan, now I like the Red Sox," which really means, "I go from team to team depending on who's winning." But now you've got me preachin' ....)
by Vacafan on Aug 1, 2007 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't hate that at all...
If you're a fan of victories, then you should be a fan of who's winning.
I've been an A's fan for 20+ seasons now, and that's not going to change, but I'll admit that I spend about 200% more time keeping track of them when they're winning than when they're losing. When they're on a hot streak, I'll change my plans so that I can see/listen to every game, but when they're stinking it up, I might watch one or two games a week...
by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Aug 1, 2007 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know, I've just gotta ask
You're not condoning rooting for whichever team is winning, are you? Like the Cardinals last year, the White Sox the year before that, the Red Sox the year before that ....
Because that is the most gutless, heartless, weakest bunch of bull**** I've ever heard ... IF that's what you mean ...
by Vacafan on Aug 1, 2007 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you, but I should preface that.
The Kirk Gibson one-legged homerun made me a Dodgers fan, because I had nothing else to go on when deciding my favorite team other than the feeling that moment brought about.
When I came to North America, the Dodgers feeling quickly subsided (by the 7th inning stretch, if you know what I mean), and I took some time to follow whatever team was near wherever I was living. Watched the Reds, the Mariners, the Jays, the Mets, but none stuck.
Oakland did, and you wanna know why?
Good guys I can root for. Assholes I can't.
by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2007 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am with you...
I like the human element of the players and enjoy your writeups on the players as they pass through Vancouver and move up the ladder... Keep posting those Notes from the Nat...
by Charlie Brown on Aug 2, 2007 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Minors
I've worked in minor league baseball for a few years now, so I understand where you are coming from. If you have a personal relationship with a player, that is totally separate from baseball. Of course you cheer the player on moreso than other players and hope for the best from them.
Would you want to keep that player whom you are friends with if they were a detriment to Oakland? If a trade involving this player would help the team, would you be against it? It may not be that black and white to you, but it is to me.
Another thing about the minors, winning isn't nearly as important to me. I would rather have the teams win, but I would be just as happy to see the prospects develop well. You know I follow the minors pretty closely, but I couldn't tell the records of any of the teams, and may not even come close if I were to guess. The team winning is just a bonus.
I would prefer that the players on Oakland are good people, but that is also separate from baseball. In life in general I apprecaite kind, charitable, compassionate people more than assholes, and that extends to baseball players as well, but when they are between the lines I couldn't care less.
by Brian Durack on Aug 1, 2007 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My feelings
I would prefer that the players on Oakland are good people, but that is also separate from baseball. In life in general I apprecaite kind, charitable, compassionate people more than assholes, and that extends to baseball players as well, but when they are between the lines I couldn't care less.
exactly. This sounds unbelievably selfish, I know, but when it comes to "my teams," the key word is MY. It's all about me and how much satisfaction I take from watching them win. It's all about bragging rights ... why else would I "root" for millionaires who care less about me or what I feel?
It all boils down to this ... DID MY TEAM BEAT YOUR TEAM?
by Vacafan on Aug 1, 2007 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you met Nick Swisher in a bar...
..do you honestly think he wouldn't want to hear you talking about how much you enjoy watching him play?
If you met Scoot, do you honestly think he wouldn't be happy to talk to a fan?
How about Travis Buck?
Haren? Street? Chavez? Suzuki?
The Yankees are 'a bunch of millionaires'.
The A's are a 'bunch of guys who play ball and don't struggle to pay the rent'.
by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2007 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wellllll,
I'm not so sure about that ... again, I don't mean to come across like I wouldn't talk to someone ... I say "hello" to just about anyone I make eye contact with -- I don't mean to imply that baseball players are all jerks, either -- I'm just saying that at the end of the day, fill-in-the-blank major leaguer doesn't much care what you think about him or his output.
And I really mean this in a good way -- this is not meant as an insult -- but perhaps your youth clouds your judgment a bit -- or perhaps my old age has made me a cynic ... I just find it easier to root for Oakland if I'm not emotionally attached to the individuals, that's all.
by Vacafan on Aug 1, 2007 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a 37-year-old, I thank you.
by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2007 7:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not either/or.
I consider myself to have as much attachment to Nick Swisher as I do to a guy I've met and liked as a person. Why? Because he's a goof, a good guy, he smiles through the game, he wears his heart on his sleeve and he gives a damn.
But if he sucks, I'm not going to say that he's untouchable just because he's a nice guy. If he sucks, sorry dude, but you've gotta go.
What I'm saying is not that personality is ALL that matters, I'm saying it matters a lot. Given the choice between a guy who hits .280 and is a hoot to watch on the field and another guy who hits .300 and is a prick to everyone around him, I'm cheering for the former.
I want my team to win as much as anyone does, but not out of civic pride - I want them to win because they're people I want to see succeed, and if they have to be pricks to win, then I'll take a second-place team or worse without blinking.
by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2007 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd trade every member of AN
for 6,000 new ones if it increased the quality of posts by 1%, wouldn't you?
by Nico on Aug 1, 2007 10:04 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
couldn't get equal value
given the inevitable decline in posting value due to the upcoming "winter" in August and September. You might be able to unload some veterans to free up salary for draft picks, but you certainly won't get snark-for-snark return on your trades.
by jubjub on Aug 1, 2007 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
nah, i'd only trade #s 4,000 - 6,000.
by xbhaskarx on Aug 1, 2007 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't like ranges. They're heartless.
Can we scattertrade?
by Poppy on Aug 1, 2007 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We do have
plenty of standard deviants on AN, so sure.
by Nico on Aug 1, 2007 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even me?
by grover on Aug 1, 2007 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
''warm and fuzzy'' are intangibles
by ArakSOT on Aug 1, 2007 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"A Bronx Tale"
No not the Yankees, the movie. The character played by Chazz Palmentieri tells kid, who is the son of the DeNiro character, that Mickey Mantle doesn't give a shit about you so why should you care about him. It is an epiphany for the kid, who shifts his admiration to the local neighborhood cappo, Palmentieri. While he may have picked a questionnable role model. It was someone whose actions he witnessed first hand. Most of what we know about player's character is based on 2nd hand media characterizations.
by NoeValley on Aug 1, 2007 4:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think you're right ...
We allow the media to determine who's "nice" and who's a "jerk." Great movie reference ... kind of my point, exactly.
by Vacafan on Aug 1, 2007 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As Tom Tolbert said,
"I don't root for laundry. I root for people."
by Scottbass on Aug 2, 2007 1:05 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, again, that's certainly one way
to look at it ... but how do you know which people to root for?
I'll give you an example ... you know what? I'm just gonna use his name because it's "out" now, anyway. Michael Jordan used to roll through Vacaville all the time back in the late 80's - early 90's ... he would play golf in Napa, and stop to play cards here before heading up to Tahoe. (There are a bunch of older country-club guys with money that he liked to play Gin and later Hold 'Em with.) Anyways, he'd often have a different -- shall we say, professional woman by his side -- it was very apparent that he was messing around on his wife. My point is this ... the majority of the country continued to idolize him because he's such a "nice guy" -- and you know what? He was a helluva nice guy, but he ran around on his wife like it was going out of style.
My point is, you don't really know someone unless you really know someone. All we have to go on is hearsay. So the great guy you may be rooting for might very well be a jerk, and the jerk may very well be an alright guy.
by Vacafan on Aug 2, 2007 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's an insider
Tolbert can make judgements based either his own 1:1 interaction or feedback from sources he knows well. (This is probably especially important to him because of his gambling Jones.) Sportswriters "covered" for their friends and disparaged players they didn't like.
by NoeValley on Aug 2, 2007 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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