Hindsight Is 20/20—But Sometimes So Is Foresight
Disclaimer: I really don’t mean to be negative these days—I just try to “call ‘em as I see ‘em,” and what I’ve seen lately hasn’t inspired a lot of positivity. Sorry.
So I ran into Nostradamus sometime in late March and took the opportunity to ask him whether Milton Bradley and Rich Harden would be healthy this season. “I don’t time for this!” he snapped. “I’m too busy predicting the things you can’t figure out for yourself.” Point is, Billy Beane’s big blunder in 2007 wasn’t the Milton Bradley DFA. The blunder occurred far earlier, when the A’s constructed a 2007 team that was so reliant on the impossibly improbable, it would have taken a complete moron—like a blindly passionate fan, like me—to hold out any hope for success.
Start with Harden and Bradley, arguably the A’s ace and #3 hitter going into the season. Had Oakland cut ties with these guys in the off-season, perhaps Beane would have been compelled to find suitable replacements. Instead, we spent most of the season’s first three months eagerly waiting for Godot and Godoter—while trotting out Kennedy and DiNardo, Langerhans and Kielty, because help was “on the way soon”. That’s just a dumb way to build a team, folks, especially if you’re a low payroll team that can’t afford to book 6 quality starters and 4 quality starting outfielders.
When was the last time Esteban Loaiza pitched effectively two years in a row? Despite the fact that this is Loiaza’s 13th major league season, the correct answer is, in fact, never. This is less surprising if you realize that ELo’s career ERA is 4.62, that he has only won more than 12 games in a season once, that 4 of 7 times he has won in double figures he has also lost in double figures, that 4 of his season ERAs since 2001 have been 4.89, 5.70, 5.71, and 5.02, and that what he has been best known for in his career is his inconsistency. Obviously, the A’s thought Loaiza would be healthy, but actually history suggests that if healthy ELo would likely be underwhelming us with his performance one way or the other.
Beane is fond of saying that you need to build the team you believe in and then don’t panic halfway through, because players tend to find their career norms by the end. Does Billy realize that Bobby Crosby’s career norm is to be a very poor hitter? The sample is now 19 months and Crosby’s average has been below .250 in 12 of the 19 months, while his OBP, currently a whopping .309 for his career, has been at .316 or below for 11 of the 19 months (and .333 or below for 14 of the 19 months). Chavez, in his current state of body and mind, is no better than a league average hitter at 3B, but the bigger problem is that he joins Ellis, Crosby, Kendall, Kotsay, and ultimately probably Stewart and Johnson, as players who aren’t really “plus hitters” for their position. You can’t have seven of those, and this team can’t really afford to trot Johnny LeMaster’s ghost out there day after day.
So the A’s, who believe strongly that players, over time, will find their career norms, decided to rely heavily on two starting pitchers, an OFer, and a SS, who have given the A’s exactly what they should have expected: absence and disappointment.
Sadly, as much as I’d like to see the glass as “half full” (“How amazing that with all the injuries, the A’s have still managed to play .500 ball!”), in fact to me the glass looks very much “half empty”: Despite the amazing levels of emergence of Chad Gaudin, Santiago Casilla, Travis Buck, and Jack Cust, the A’s have still managed to be no better than a .500 club. How do you build a team without the sub-3.00 ERA starter, the 0.45 ERA reliever, the 5-tool OFer, or the .400 OBP/30 HR DH in mind, and still find yourself only at .500 when these pieces unexpectedly come together? Bad planning, that’s how.
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203 comments
Comments
Nico.
by Poppy on Jul 10, 2007 9:06 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Poppy?
Or did you just want to say my name?
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're making me cry again.
by Poppy on Jul 10, 2007 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A's are lucky
If Cust hadn't just been sitting there waiting to be picked up for nothing, this team would be looking VERY bad right now.
by chri5 on Jul 10, 2007 9:16 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Cust, yes the A's
were "brilliant" to acquire him but they also let him go last year! Brilliant on Gaudin, more lucky on Cust?
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carpal Tunnel
Cust had surgery on his wrist after his season in Sacramento. He's raked since.
by Danny on Jul 10, 2007 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Injuries even worse than expected
I think you are being somewhat unfair - while all of us knew the injury risks, I say the injuries have been much worse than anticipated. In just about every case, the worst possible result has come up.
Even the replacement players that come up get injured in freak accidents. (not counting the Snellingstein.)
I suppose we should have figured out about Harden when he couldn't even make it out of Spring Training - or am I confusing one injured pitcher with another?
by MobiusKlein on Jul 10, 2007 9:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I would argue that Harden's and Bradley's
health have been right about what could have been anticipated; same for Crosby's performance (and Duke's back). Yes, the injuries to Loaiza, Street, and Piazza were unanticipated, but Cust has outperformed Piazza and Casilla has been unhittable--so without the heavy reliance on Harden and Bradley, and a reliable Loaiza (and Crosby's always-awaited breakout year), might those injuries have been blips rather than crises?
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harden & Bradly about what you anticipated?
I find that hard to believe. I did not expect 19 games in the first half of the year for Bradley.
4 Games started for Harden. (including the 2 1/3, and another 4 inning mini game.)
18 IP by Houston so far.
16 IP by Duke
Even Buck, our best rookie, has been injured more than we could anticipate. (54 games out of 88?)
Piazza - 26 Games.
And yes, some of the losses have been balanced by surprising performances - but the injuries have been legion.
by MobiusKlein on Jul 10, 2007 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some of the games Buck didn't play
were NOT due to injury. They were manager's decision. Both Kielty and the aforementioned Bradley played in front of him at times. Buck has been on the DL ONCE, so I don't think his health is really in question, considering he wouldn't even be on the DL if he had an athletic training degree and had tried Swisher's thumb guard three weeks ago.
by IndianaAsfan on Jul 10, 2007 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Had forearm / wrist issues
He had many days he did not play because of it.
by MobiusKlein on Jul 10, 2007 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most of those days
Geren said he could have played, but since there were other options they would sit Buck out. Most of those games were DNP coach's decision.
by IndianaAsfan on Jul 10, 2007 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure about that--
I recall a fairly long stretch (2-3 weeks) when Bradley was out and others were hobbling where Buck was always "day to day" and we really could have used him, but he only played about 1/3 of the time. I don't think that means he's injury prone, just that his "sore wrist/elbow" injury was not insignificant.
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bradley averaged 100 played
Milton averaged 100 games played a year in each of the last 4 seasons. If he plays ever game the rest of the season with San Diego he may just make it....
.....sorry this is Milton we are talking about, 75 games in a row? No way, he will be way under his norm, which in itself is only 65 percent.
Dougald
by dougald1 on Jul 10, 2007 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Xactly
by MobiusKlein on Jul 10, 2007 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is the point
the organization has gone after injured/injury-prone players the last 3-4 seasons, with no contingencies.
Not to mention the point made a couple days ago that if the A's want these types of players (undervalued?), then they should at least try and counter with a top-notch medical/conditioning plan/staff, which they have neither.
This is self-evident as the team's main struggles have been injuries the last three seasons. You cant say the injuries were more than expected...that was the excuse last year. They know they are going to have injuries...all teams do. The way to remain succesful and competitive is to have a plan in place that will counteract against injuries: a solid hitting club w/good OBP and a staff that educates its players and implements top-quality regimens to stay healthy.
I'm personally sick of this team right now: Harden is a joke (or at least a non-issue), we have no back-end rotation and we have basically a AAA line-up. The team sucks...have you been watching them play baseball? BLEAH...
Its even more frustrating that our pitching is so good yeay after year.
by tdwclark on Jul 10, 2007 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No contingencies? That's flatly false
What was Shannon Stewart if not a contingency? (The pre-season predicted starters were Bradley, Kotsay and Swisher.) Marco Scutaro? Lenny DiNardo? Todd Walker?
You give Beane far too little credit. The problem this year wasn't the lack of contingency players, it was that all the contingency players got hurt too.
by PaulThomas on Jul 10, 2007 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that in and of itself
is the main point...TOO MANY HURT PLAYERS. and stewart was a 4th outfilder, hardly a contingency. walker? really? he was picked up after someone else was hurt. Lets face facts: the organization is getting FAR TOO MANY INJURIES...period. its abnormal and has happened far too frequently for the past 3-4 seasons.
by tdwclark on Jul 10, 2007 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow....
And if the players in question had been healthy, it'd be a stroke of genius, right? "...it would have taken a complete moron—like a blindly passionate fan, like me—to hold out any hope for success"??? Wow. I realize you are sort of being self-depricating there, but there are quite a few other "morons" out there. The chances for us to win a playoff spot are still very attainable. I find it amusing that Kennedy and DiNardo get trashed and bad motuhed even though they are two of the best 4th and 5th starters in the league (statistically, you can even look it up for yourselves BEFORE trashing them next time), with Haren, Gaudin and Blanton being an extremely solid 1-2-3. I'm sorry, but these kind of diaries remind me of when national sportswriters have no news for the day so they go and construct a poorly thought out and put together piece just to say they wrote something (self-)important that day. All apologies, as usually I think Nico and the gang do good, nay GREAT stuff, but to me, this is just frustration being spouted off into trash. Sorry, and I hope there is better material up later for us A's fans to read.
by PosterNutbag44 on Jul 10, 2007 9:29 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If you honestly believe that
a rotation with Kennedy and DiNardo behind the league's second worst offense can compete with LAA, DET, and CLE, more power to you. If you were stunned by the "bad luck" of Harden's and Bradley's inability to stay healthy, or by Crosby's .229 batting average, then...well, hmm.
Sure I'm frustrated; more than that, I'm very concerned about the direction the team seems to be going in, spinning its wheels with broken down cars maintained by clueless mechanics. Methinks you may be shooting the messenger?
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aren't you the same messenger who wrote
"The A's do know what they're doing--even if we don't know what they're doing" and "Bring on the second half of the season! So far I like July just fine" in the last 3 weeks?
by Reg on Jul 10, 2007 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"So far I like July just fine"
was written on July 1st after the A's won, and referred to the A's being undefeated so far in July. And I do think the A's know what they're doing; it just may not be what we want them to do. I think Beane knows 2007 is not the A's year; he gambled on Harden's and Bradley's health and lost, and now will try to reload for 2008. Nice try, though, Reg.
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You wrote those things, not me.
In this diary you criticize the A's for bad planning but before the A's know what they're doing? Nice waffling and smug defensiveness. Let's all be glad that Beane is making the decisions.
by Reg on Jul 10, 2007 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The A's have been one of the most
successful teams in the decade; they know what they're doing. They messed up one year, 2007, with bad planning, and that while that is unusual for them the fact that it is unusual does not make it impossible. Good planners sometimes plan badly; they're "good planners" because usually they plan well. To users who don't only comment on my threads just to find some reason to rag on me, this should hopefully make sense?
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It only seems like bad planning now
by Reg on Jul 10, 2007 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
did you actually read the "heavy handed piece"?
Nico's main point is that most of the injuries should have been expected, and that the planning should have anticipated them.
by monkeyball on Jul 10, 2007 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess *you* didn't read it then
It's not about your buddy's main point. The heavy handed comments include
"Billy Beane’s big blunder..."
"That’s just a dumb way to build a team, folks..."
"Does Billy realize that Bobby Crosby’s career norm..."
"...given the A’s exactly what they should have expected: absence and disappointment."
"Bad planning, that's how."
by Reg on Jul 10, 2007 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and those all follow from his central point
You said "It only seems like bad planning now because things aren't working out as expected due to injuries," as if the injuries dropped out of the sky unexpectedly. If you want to dispute his central point, dispute it.
You're also the one who broke out the insulting "waffling and smug defensiveness" prior to calling Nico's piece "heavy handed."
And I'm not defending Nico because of who he is. I'm defending him because I agree with his argument, and you're being unnecessarily insulting.
by monkeyball on Jul 10, 2007 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see your point
But I don't think you read his diary and posts carefully. It's one thing to say this is what I thought before and now I've changed my mind. It's another to ignore what was said previously, attack the team's practices and decision making, and dismiss challenges with sarcasm.
by Reg on Jul 10, 2007 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Before, I thought the A's were good planners
in general. I still do. This year, I think the A's made some serious miscalculations that were "reasonably foreseeable" (maybe they just got unlucky--that's possible too--but the point of today's post was to show how foreseeable the main problems were). These two statements simply aren't mutually exclusive, whether or not you want to see that. Frankly, I think if you were more objective towards my threads, you'd see this in a heartbeat. And again, I'm sorry I ran over your dog.
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The way you argue your point here
and the way you did it in the diary/story are completely different. Suggesting that I be more objective when reading your threads is a nice way of taking the attention away from your comments, which are easy to throw out in a blog, but would never be expressed to Beane face to face.
by Reg on Jul 10, 2007 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In that case
Nico should have written his comments on a blog, instead of saying them directly to Beane.
Oh, wait. He did...
by iglew on Jul 10, 2007 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL. Reg's last comment
is especially ridiculous since:
- There is nothing about my comment that would be hard to say it to someone's face - "You usually plan well; this year I think you didn't." Big wow.
- Those who know me know I wouldn't shy away from saying anything I've ever said on the blog to BB's face - especially considering that anyone who reads the blog can see that I basically think very highly of BB as a GM.
- BB has told Blez that he reads AN. Whether that's true or not, it's the only info I have to go on, and if it's true then I essentially am saying everything I say on the blog to his face.
But...other than at least three ways it's wrong, it's a darn good sentence!
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Nico's comment is especially ridiculous since
I copied down several of his heavy handed comments above and that's what I'm referring to. No way would you say "that's just a dumb way to build a team" to Beane. I would pay to see that.
Wink wink, nudge nudge, Saturday Night Live and Monty Python Internet school of comedy! Go Nico!
by Reg on Jul 10, 2007 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I knew mdl would be here to defend his hero, Nico
Couldn't resist the sarcasm, I see.
by Reg on Jul 10, 2007 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reg?
It's Nico's place on AN to write articles discussing the A's. To do that effectively he can't be a Beane "Yes man".
by IM4Oakgal on Jul 10, 2007 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I figured out a long time ago
that as a front-page writer, you're "damned if you do, damned if you don't." You're either being pollyanna and an In Beane We Trust guy, or you're sacrilegous, too negative, contrarian, subversive, etc. Or if you are a bit of both at different times, you're a "flip-flopper".
The only good solution? Write what you think and only worry about the opinions of those whose opinions you respect. Which is most of the AN community.
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
WRONG
Nico, as a front-page writer you have the duty to please all of the approximately 6500 registered users simultaneously. Why can't you satisfy all the 6500 disparate opinions at once? The next time I meet a diverse group of students who need to be mollified at once, I am going to send them to a teacher capable of uniting rather than dividing. You have failed AN, and I wish Beane had the guts to tell you to your face.
by BlameChannel53 on Jul 10, 2007 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
<hangs head>
Deep down I know you're right. :-(
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And stop making me cry.
by Poppy on Jul 10, 2007 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
by PosterNutbag44 on Jul 10, 2007 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where I think I have felt frustration
(and this is just my own weakness) is that three years running I have spent the off-season thinking about a team, and looking forward to a team, that has not actually taken the field. It's frustrating to anticipate a season with Harden-Haren-Blanton-Loaiza, or anticipate a lineup with Swisher-Bradley-Piazza-Chavez and then never get to see what could have been...3 years in a row...That has definitely taken its toll on my A's-mood this season.
But perhaps my semantic error is in saying "bad planning" where "unsuccessful planning" would be more fair.
As for players, I'm not really down on Kotsay yet--he's hitting .272 since his "extended spring training 2/27" and if he hits near .300 I'll say he did fine. The problem isn't Kotsay, it's putting 7 Kotsays on the field. And you may just think more of DiNardo than I do. I think he's a good long man and a passable #5 starter, and inadequate #4 starter. I feel the same about Kennedy. Starting pitching will keep you in the race, as it did for the A's the first 70 games. But being 3 deep out of 5 and 4 deep out of 5 are very different, and I'd say the A's are 3 deep.
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
complete agreement nico
with regard to the anticipation of the team that supposed to take the field vs. the team that actually plays. Very disheartening.
by tdwclark on Jul 10, 2007 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can dig that....
I just don't think you can fault them too much when a possible backup plan for MB (Buck) got injured himself and the A's pitching has been outstanding (also, didn't Beane make it clear at some point he wasn't really counting on too much from Harden this season? Or am I way off base there?).Also, some of the contingency plans have worked out quite well, like Gaudin in the rotation and Cust. I totally understand the frustration, though. Offensively, there should be more output from the collection of talent there. Also, it would be nice to see the plans go through for once without a seemingly endless amount of obstacles preventing that, forseeable or not.
by PosterNutbag44 on Jul 10, 2007 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Different persepective
I think I have a slightly different perspective on the whole Harden issue because I took a hiatus from following A's baseball a few years ago, about when Harden was developing. For the past two years everyone here has always been talking about his potential, his great stuff, perhaps the best we might ever see. But throughout all those comments I never really got it because I never saw him pitch for any significant amount of time. He has ALWAYS been injured. He doesn't last for very many innings and it hasn't just been this year. We didn't see him last year for a significant amount of time either. It is foolish to build a team around expecting him to start. Frankly I don't see why he has even got this far, how did he make it through the minors? college? high school? I guess it was always just potential with him. Luckily we have been very lucky with out other starters.
As far as Chavez goes, he is a hard one to sort out. I guess I'm not too upset him. He is a great defensive third baseman, which is offset by his inability to hit consistently. For the most part it seems people grade him harshly because he is overpaid for his offensive production, and because he never lived up to expectations. Like nico said, the problem isn't Chavez the problem is everyone around him. We can handle having a Chavez and an Ellis for their defense if we don't also have a Kotsay, Kendall, and Crosby for the same reason. We need somebody that can hit, and can hit well with power and invokes fear into the opponent. One hitter like that (like Big Hurt) changed everything.
by dbuzi123 on Jul 10, 2007 10:07 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Beane and his A's
This is an interesting topic, Nico, because I don't think the real answer to why the A's are underperforming this year is solely because of all the injuries.
Beane has been experimenting recently with the whole "high risk, high reward" thing, and its had mixed success. Thomas and Stewart on the positive side, Bradley and Loaiza on the negative. He clearly thinks these guys are the "undervalued" commodities for him to focus on at the current time.
The A's have always experimented with this undervalued thing--bringing in OBP guys like Hatteberg, trading for quality defense in Kotsay, etc. These players have been important in the A's success, but they aren't the reason for the A's success. They were complements.
The reasons the A's were so successful had far more to do with the young players drafted. The Big 3. Tejada. Chavez. Swisher. Giambi. The players that came up with the A's. I'm not saying Beane had no part in that happening, or that he was simply "lucky". Beane did a lot in turning that core into a championship-caliber team with his additions.
To me, the recent problems have had far more to do with below average drafting than risking it all on injury-prone players. The 2002 draft has been well documented (Swisher and Blanton, yay---the others, not so much). In 2004, only Street and Suzuki are successful out of 6 early picks. 2003 has no been a pretty much a disaster with the loss of Bonderman and Ethier. Also troubling to me was the loss of a high draft pick in order to sign Esteban Loaiza. And what about Latin America? How long has it been since the A's had a successful player come up that way? Miguel Tejada?
A lot hasn't really been Beane's fault. Looking at the 02 and 04 drafts--theres not a whole lot the A's missed. But the fundamental point--that you still have to have a solid core of players--is still true. You can add and tinker and complete a team that already has potential, but you can't really build a contender from spare parts.
by Alien on Jul 10, 2007 10:22 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Really good posts,
dbuzi123 and alien. While it's easy to say "it all begins with the starting rotation," perhaps a better mantra is "it all begins with the draft". The A's used to have a surplus of talent (Bonderman, Quinanilla, Lehr) they could trade to fill voids and now they don't even have enough to fill the existing voids on their own team.
I really hope the community won't misunderstand two things: that I admire Beane for all the good work he's done and that I desperately want the A's to succeed. And even recently, the A's have made some good calls. For example, I think Beane was right on to pass on Frank Thomas--Thomas insisted on a 3-year deal and could easily have become, in 2008-09, the Jason Giambi-Jason Kendall albatross we avoided once and didn't avoid once. Gaudin and Cust have been saviors from the scrap heap.
But if there's one thing Harden, Bradley, and Snelling (plus Duchscherer and Kotsay) should teach us it's that chronically injured players almost always stay chronically injured. And the A's just can't afford to rely on gambles that bad.
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why don't people understand
that zero risk players are zero risk? If you get ANYTHING out of Chris Snelling, it's a positive, because he's literally as cheap as you can get. The only price on Snelling is the price of the guy you give up to get him-- in this case, Ryan Langerhans, or, in other words, nothing.
Harden, of course, didn't show any signs of injury until 2005. He pitched a full season in 2004. It's the risk you take with arbitration-year contracts. I mean, would you rather the A's never locked up their guys and were looking at the prospect of paying $12 million to keep Danny Haren next year? That's WHY THEY SIGN THE CONTRACTS. They're essentially insurance policies for young players-- a cut in pay, but enough money to guarantee their future even if they flame out or get hurt.
Bradley... eh. Something of an argument here. He did sort of carry the team last year though.
Look, the A's can absolutely afford to rely on gambles. In fact, I'd venture to say that they HAVE to. Better to build a team with a 50% chance of winning 95 and a 50% chance of winning 80 than a team with a 100% chance of winning 88. It's just silly to say that they can't afford it when they have one of the 80-win seasons. That's like saying you were wrong to hit on 13 in blackjack because the top card was a jack.
Or to put it even more succinctly: a gamble is bad when the odds are against you. Whether or not a gamble succeeds is literally, totally irrelevant to whether it was a good gamble or not. You've demonstrated that his gambles this year were not successful. What you haven't done is demonstrate that the odds were bad in the first place.
by PaulThomas on Jul 10, 2007 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Words of Wisdom
I think you put it best -- re: the injuries, Beane took a good gamble and lost (is losing?). If we had infinite money, then it'd be easy to make low-risk high-reward decisions like signing the consistent 40 HR/ .900 OPS ballplayers. Instead, given our payroll, we're stuck with the Rich Harden's and Milton Bradley's of the world, trying to capture lightning in a bottle. We have no choice but to gamble. And while Harden and Bradley stick out as failures, some of Beane's gambles have paid off solidly: calling up Buck and Casilla, signing Cust (who was injured when he played with the Rivercats), not to mention whatever potential Denorfia and Snelling bring to the A's, and whomever we got from the Pads for Bradley.
On a related note, a bad gamble is hoping that the team improves its scoring output, since career norms and trends for most of our team are in the wrong direction. Good hitters are expensive and hard to come by though, so hopefully Beane can swing for some relievers so we can get by with scoring only a run or two a game, as was the plan before the bullpen imploded.
by sec119 on Jul 10, 2007 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent point
Especially the "you must always have to have a solid core of players" part. The thing that really hamstrung the team this year is relying way too much on unreliable players to be a core part of the team. In past years, the A's always had a solid core to rely on whether it be the Big Three or Tejada, Giambi, or Chavez. This year, the A's have relied way too much on Harden, Bradley, etc, to be part of the core and obviously, it hasn't paid off.
It's definitely okay to take risks on injured players as long as you don't expect them to be a crucial part of the team. Case in point, Frank Thomas was an excellent gamble last year because when Billy signed Frank, the core group of players in the offense was already established and whatever Frank provided was expected to be a bonus. Obviously this year is different as Beane took risks on players who were expected to be crucial to the team and since they haven't worked out, the team has essentially become screwed.
by lenscrafters on Jul 10, 2007 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I read Nico's post
on the way out to the gym and I wanted to reply, but I didn't have time. But this was essentially going to be my response.
A few other thoughts. Beane went into the season hoping that Harden could remain healthy, but he also believed (at least that's what he told me) that someone like Windsor or Braden might be ready in case we have the issues with Harden that we have had. At some point you've got to give those prospects that are knocking on the door a chance and I think that's what Beane believed could happen if something happened with Harden. It's the way he's done things the last few seasons. If someone gets hurt, then that creates an opening. Remember Aaron Harang? There has always been someone to take the spot. I mean it wasn't like the A's could keep Zito and even if they did, he might've been the disaster he's been across the Bay. I didn't see many other options. Then there's the whole, what if you trade Harden and he actually goes on to be healthy with another team and wins the Cy Young and dominates you? Then you wind up looking silly like in the Bonderman deal because chances are that you'll never get enough back for someone like Harden if he stays healthy. You know, maybe he would stay healthy if he was with a different medical/training staff.
As for Bradley, Bradley was healthy the second half of last season. And he was one of the A's better hitters. Even still, you had an apparent abundance of other guys who might be able to take his place if he went down. Buck was obviously ready judging his spring training. You had Stewart and Kielty (not the best options, but OK to fill in for a small stretch). And Cust has provided more than Bradley probably ever would've even if he was healthy. Cust is cut from the mold that Beane would probably have all of his hitters cut from if he could.
So the biggest issue right now is that the A's had so many players come up the last few years and the last few drafts haven't produced any true studs (at least ones that are anywhere close to contributing) to replace some of the players they've been losing to free agency. And even when they finally get someone who appears to be close to being an impact player at the higher levels, something happens to them, like Powell's knee injuries or Barton's elbow issues or Herrera's injury problems. The A's simply can't afford to have those issues happen. I don't think it's bad planning, I just think it's relying on what has worked for the team in the past and just has failed miserably for the first half of this season.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Jul 10, 2007 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the way
the funny thing was that Michael Lewis predicted this in one of our interviews a year or two back. He basically said that the advantages that the A's had in the market were diminishing because everyone else was hiring stat-minded guys to do a lot of the analysis. He said the one place where the A's could retain an advantage was in the draft, but that hasn't happened the last couple of years which is why things seem to be sliding in the direction they are.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Jul 10, 2007 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember Lewis' quote
Questions from a Crosby-non believer:
- Is Pennington considered a bust, or is there hope he might still be major league material?
- And is there any potential for Melillo to play SS, or is he strictly 2B material?
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question for Nico
If Street had not been hurt this year, but the A's still had as many injuries and everything else was the same. How many more wins do you think the A's would have?
My thought is that the season and the A's can live with out Kotsay, Bradley and Harden and still win the west. Hell, they did it last year.
But add to that Street, Piazza, Kielty, Johnson Duch, Calero...no team can overcome this. Look at the Yankees. They have a A.Rod, Jeter and Posada have great years and yet they are under 500. And they do not even come near the A's in injuries.
Thanks
by dougald1 on Jul 10, 2007 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually don't think having just Street out
would have been bad at all if Duke had been healthy his usual 90% of the time. But if your question is what's the impact of both being out, I think replacing Street and Duke with Embree has cost us maybe 2-3 wins due to performance/depth; add in Calero and it's maybe 3-4 wins. The reason I don't say more is that our offense is so poor, and our #4-#5 starters so mediocre, that there aren't more winable games.
Probably (mostly because of Casilla's unexpected emergence) we still would have been fine had Harden and/or Loaiza been healthy--imagine if our rotation had been Haren, Harden, Blanton, Gaudin, Loaiza; I think Casilla and Embree (with Kennedy as LOOGY) could have handled the pen behind that awesome crew.
But you're right: Initially, Duke was only supposed to be out a short time and it was when we first heard "wait, Duke actually might not be back real soon" that I felt we were in deep trouble. No Street, ok. No Duke, ok. But neither for a long time, and no effective Calero either? Feggedabouddit.
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Street being out
has NOT considerably hurt their record. First, other than the Cleveland series Embree has been fine. Second, even when healthy, Street isn't perfect so probably would have blown one as well. On the whole I think Duke's and Calero's injuries have had a larger impact on the bullpen and the record.
by IndianaAsfan on Jul 10, 2007 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The math
Each inning you take from Duke / Street / Calero (when they are actually healthy that is.) is one you give to Marshall / Lewis / Flores / Lugo in the end.
Sure, Embree takes the innings directly, but it means somebody else is the setup man, and so on.
And Embree is no great shakes, for what it's worth. 4.15 ERA, 1.36 WIHP.
Uh, if I wasn't lazy, I'd estimate how many fewer runs would be scored against, and do a pythagorean calculation to ballpark the win difference. I'll pull 3 wins out of my .
by MobiusKlein on Jul 10, 2007 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your analysis
Any your set up man argument just goes to my point that Duke and Calero being hurt has had a greater impact because now Marshall/Lewis/Flores have, at various times, taken their set up roles. Embree was originally signed to be a LOOGY, so moving him to the closer hasn't impacted the set up roles as greatly as the Duke/Calero injuries have. Casilla has mitigated the impact to a degree, but their injuries have had a bigger impact on the team's record.
Now, I'd rather have Street as closer than Embree any day. I'm not trying to say otherwise. But the fact that Embree's numbers aren't that good doesn't change the fact he has only two blown saves during his fill in time. So while he may be heading towards destruction (and the Cleveland appearances certainly indicate that), there's no way having a healthy Street to date would have resulted in three more wins.
by IndianaAsfan on Jul 10, 2007 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My core analysis
Looking at the raw numbers, Huston is a better pitcher than Embree. ERA 2.5 vs 4.15, and the more ERA 2.5 innings pitched, the better.
And you point about roles adds on - having good pitchers who are not injured lets the manager choose who goes out, to maximize the leverage. With our injured staff, that avenue is closed.
(And I was looking at Street & Duke & Kiko all Healthy)
by MobiusKlein on Jul 10, 2007 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the flaw
when you're analyzing something that has happened in the past you can't just compare ERAs to say something would have happened differently. For example, if Embree saves a game (entered with a three run lead) in which he gave up a run in one inning of work he has a 9.00 ERA. Just because Street wouldn't have given up a run doesn't mean the game would have ended up any different. The A's still won either way. Having Street healthy in that situation doesn't change their record. And, for the record, your core question was how many more wins would the A's have had if Street was healthy, and the other injuries were the same. To claim a healthy Street would have resulted in more wins you have to be able to point to games lost by Embree. Games lost by ineffective set up men point to the Duke/Calero injuries being the cause and would not be affected by a healthy Street. My point remains, I don't think Street's absence has adversely affected the A's win total to date because Embree has only blown two saves, or roughly the same number as Street would have blown. Now, your analysis could more appropriately be applied to the second half, and Street's absence in the second half could negatively impact their second half record.
by IndianaAsfan on Jul 10, 2007 7:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
uh
Each inning you take from Duke / Street / Calero (when they are actually healthy that is.) is one you give to Marshall / Lewis / Flores / Lugo in the end.
Sure, Embree takes the innings directly, but it means somebody else is the setup man, and so on.And Embree is no great shakes, for what it's worth. 4.15 ERA, 1.36 WIHP.
Uh, if I wasn't lazy, I'd estimate how many fewer runs would be scored against, and do a pythagorean calculation to ballpark the win difference. I'll pull 3 wins out of my .
The core question he addressed was clearly how many more wins the A's would have if all three key 2006 bullpen members were healthy, not just Street.
by Cutthemullet on Jul 11, 2007 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Drafts are not so bad.
In the 2002 draft the A's got Teahan (traded to KC)and Murphy (traded to Florida).
When you write "the 2004 draft, only Street and Suzuki are successful out of 6 early picks." Which team had a better draft. Aside from the Tigers, 2nd pick in the draft (Verlander) there is not one player in that draft that has been even near to Street.
Matt Bush, with the number one pick
Adam Lind at pick 83, just got sent down
Dustin Pedroia to the Sox at 65, good so far but lets try to make a whole year in the bigs before we get to crazy about him.
Josh Fields at 18
Philip Hughes at 23 next(Harden) how long is this guy out for?
Sorry if I went to out there, but it is very had to right off a draft based on it being only 3 years ago .
BaseballAmerica graded the A's resent drafts 2003 B, 2004 A, 2005 C+. That seems to say, that drafting is not the problem.
Thanks
Dougald
by dougald1 on Jul 10, 2007 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Draft
I also do not feel the Drafts have been bad, On the other hand it would be nice if they had more of a presence in South America. It seems the A's rely totally on the draft and not any other methods of bringing in prospects. I wonder why? I have always heard that is a cheap source of talent. BUt look at our teams best for the last 5 years you do not see a lot of South American players. (Street, Crosby, Harden, Bondermen, Teahen, Blanton, ...
by ogallalabob on Jul 10, 2007 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so, you're saying ...
it's not just Chavez who isn't South/Central American enough -- it's the entire team!
by monkeyball on Jul 10, 2007 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
South America
Is there significant baseball anywhere in South America besides Venezuela? There's a handful of players from Colombia, all of whom seem to be from the north coast (ie, Cartagena, Barranquilla). I can't think of any players at all from Brazil, Argentina, Peru, Chile, etc. I always assumed baseball in South America was strictly a Caribbean thing, with no real interest in the Andean region or further south.
by iglew on Jul 10, 2007 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
South of the Caribbean, it's all about soccer
For the same reason that most of the best athletes from Texas become football players, most of the best athletes from Argentina become, uh, football players.
by PaulThomas on Jul 10, 2007 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the best athletes from America's inner cities
become basketball players.
cc: Dave Del Grande
by iglew on Jul 10, 2007 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wherever Dominica is
They have a virtual all-star team. Pujols, Ortiz, Soriano, Santana, Vlad, .....
by ogallalabob on Jul 11, 2007 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Santana...
assuming you mean Johan, Santana's from Venezuela. And the DR is in the Caribbean, on the same island as Haiti, not in South America.
by Cutthemullet on Jul 11, 2007 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and...
"Dominica" is actually a separate Caribbean country from the Dominican Republic, by the way.
by Cutthemullet on Jul 11, 2007 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly right
2003 is the only below average draft the A's have had with Beane as GM, though it's still early.
by Danny on Jul 10, 2007 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
c'mon, second half push!
Actually Nico, I am right there with you, but with different reasoning.
With Crosby, I think you hit the nail on the head. I know everyone think Scutaro is only good as a backup IF, but quite frankly I think his 'clutchiness' would be more valuable than his occasional multi-error game at 3rd. What if Scutaro gets consistent ABs and a regular position - I think he would do as well as Crosby. But BoCro was heir apparent, and until Beane figures out who would be better there, he will remain.
With Harden, well, ... he's sort of been terminally designated as the Big Fourth of our Big Three. While he could easily have been our #1 starter when healthy, now we don't even know if he can start at all. I remember picking up my pocket A's schedule at the corner store during Spring Training and thinking, "Why is Haren and not Harden on the cover of this thing?" Well, now I know.
With Bradley, the only 'mistake' I see here is that Beane clearly made a rebuilding move, and forgot his own belief that "there's no such thing as rebuilding". I feel like the season was given up on when Bradley was DFA'd (or D'dFA for you linguistic types). Sure, it was a sound business decision, what with Buck's emergence. But for remaining competitive this season? Our #3 hitter? The fire in the belly? I don't think so. (Of note, Bradley's swing is featured on the magnetic calendar giveaway from Opening Day this year.)
And don't forget Piazza. Piazza was filling in nicely for Big Hurt until his injury. With getting Cust back, we all saw what he's capable of at the plate, but have no idea what to expect in the field. Now that it seems pitchers have made their adjustments to Cust, can he return the favor and adjust at the plate? I've seen more Ks than BBs lately. But the biggest thing here is that Beane had a DH role figured out, and even if Piazza can swing now, he's going with Cust.
Then there's Kendall and Suzuki. I don't think it's fair to drag Kielty into this, he hardly played the first half. Then there's Ellis, Johnson, Chavez, Swisher.. all under-performing. We need a bus speech from Chavez or a Menechino-Mini-Giambi-style set of demotions to light the fire that left the dugout with Bradley.
The only way 2007 happens for the A's is if the 2nd half push happens, and I'm not very optimistic either. Fortunately, at .500 now, the glass can be half full OR half empty - neither one of us will be wrong.
by popcornjames on Jul 10, 2007 10:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The "half full" part of me
expects the A's to pull their usual second half magic, reason or no reason, and I'll be there watching and rooting my arse off for it. Trouble is, only the bullpen really figures to get better. When Street returns, the bullpen, with Street and Casilla backed by Embree and Calero, will be fine.
But Loaiza won't be back in July and when he does return he'll be on a pitch limit and will still be building arm strength. It will be August 15th before we really have an upgrade at the #4 spot in the rotation.
And only Buck will improve the lineup because there is no place for Piazza. Heck, the A's are limping offensively right now, Piazza is ripping the ball in batting practice, and the A's can't find a spot for Piazza on the roster (even while Buck is on the DL? what's up with that?). No way can Piazza be a starting catcher this year; that's just insane.
So the team we have now is scarily close to the team we'll have, at least for rotation and lineup. And it's just not good enough to compete with solid Angels, Indians, and Tigers teams.
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not only that...
...Beane could have drafted Prince Fielder in '02!
by AlamedaAphid on Jul 10, 2007 11:01 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wrong
With the 7th pick in the 2002 draft Brewers pick Prince Fielder. 9 picks later Beane picks his 1st guy in Swisher at number 16.
by dougald1 on Jul 10, 2007 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
I believe it was reported in moneyball the A's did like Swisher a lot more then Fielder. Hard to tell how that one is going to play out
by ogallalabob on Jul 10, 2007 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd go even further, Nico
I'd argue that not only should the chronic injury status of many players have been anticipated, and that better preventitive programs and fallback options should have been in place, but that Beane, in constructing the roster as he did with disproportionate salaries doled out to unproductive and/or unreliable players (Kotsay, Kendall, Chavez, Loaiza, Bradley, Piazza), essentially hamstrung his own capacity to protect against those eventualities he should have foreseen. With so much salary tied up in chronic injuries, subpar bats, and overpaying for declining defense, Beane didn't leave himself any budgetary room to stock up on replacements.
It's fine to say that OPS and offensive skills in general are now overvalued; but it's another thing entirely to say that, and then go out and wildly overpay for chronic injuries and declining defense.
by monkeyball on Jul 10, 2007 11:06 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Kendall, Piazza, Chavez
Kendall hit .295 last year, Piazza averaged 120 game catching, Chavez was a great 3b.
I am not sure what you mean, Beane should have seen that Piazza as a DH would get hurt, Kendall would be hard pressed to get to .220. Loiza has not startd less than 26 games in a season over the last 6 years, would not start a game this year? Bradley, who averaged 100 games a season (while not great) played 19 out of the first 85 (ok, you could have seen that one coming)
I think you are being a little unkind to Beane and when he got each of these playes signed. I do not recall to many fans being mad at Chavez signing.
"he should have foreseen"
By the way, what is next weeks powerball?
Sorry, but I could not help myself.
Dougald1
by dougald1 on Jul 10, 2007 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
l've never criticized the Chavez signing,
precisely because I don't think his injuries were especially foreseeable at the time of the extension (and it was a relief to see the A's actually keep one of their homegrown players!). I agree the Piazza injury was a pure fluke, no blame to anyone. I never liked the Loaiza signing, not due to health but because I never thought he was a very good pitcher--I actually wanted the A's to sign Matt Morris instead. As for Kendall, that's an awful lot of money for an awful lot of years to pay a catcher in his 30s--catchers generally don't age well. It would have made great sense to have Kendall in 2005 to nurture Haren, Blanton et al, but these last two years? There's a reason no one else would take that contract off Pittsburgh's hands.
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're willfully misreading me ...
I wrote: disproportionate salaries doled out to unproductive and/or unreliable players (Kotsay, Kendall, Chavez, Loaiza, Bradley, Piazza)
Notice the "and/or" in there? That means that some of the guys in the parentheses were unproductive, some were unreliable, and some were both.
Yeah, Kendall's AVG was .295 -- and his OBP was .367 and his SLG was .342. That ain't "productive," especially considering his high GIDP total.
Sure, Piazza caught 120 games -- providing lousy defense and a .283/.342/.501 line. Which is good for a lousy defensive catcher, and would have been good for league-average as a DH, if he'd been able to maintain it and '06 wasn't a predictably against-trend uptick in his hitting decline and he didn't have to contend with switching leagues and seeing a fair amount more offspeed stuff. Where have I ever mentioned Piazza's injury as something Beane should have predicted?
Loaiza, as others have mentioned, has had a hard tme staying healthy in consecutive years throughout his career -- and has never been consistently effective.
Chavez' defense has been in decline the last couple years (evidenced by both first-person and statistical indications), likely due to his chronic forearm and shoulder conditions.
So, to make it clear:
- Kendall: on a steep offensive decline for 3 years
- Piazza: on a steep offensive decline for 6 years
- Loaiza: established career trend of inconsistent performance and health
- Chavez: steeply declining offensive numbers, chronic injuries, modestly declining defense
I think you're being a little unkind to the facts. They resent it when you make up fantasies to displace them.
by monkeyball on Jul 10, 2007 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You and Beane
Do you think that You or Beane could have perdicted that so many problems could occure in just half a season?
Steep offensive decline, I think Beane would take...nit the cliff he got.
Fine Kendalls's .295 is a very weak .295, but it is way better than .220 with the same DP's
Piazza is no Thomas, but 1 homer? and then hurt.
Loaiza....not one game?
Chavez is what he is, and not the player of 3 years ago.
If Kendall was batting .290 (hell .265), Piazza was at .270 with 10 homers, Loiaza was in the 4th stater mix and Street was closing games, Allowing Embree and Calero to pitch the 7 and 8th the A's are likely much nearer to LA.
You should cut the Team and Beane some slack. You put 15 players on the DL in half a season, life is not good.
Dougald
by dougald1 on Jul 10, 2007 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
paging mikeA
THIS is where you need to direct your innumeracy argument.
I'm done.
by monkeyball on Jul 10, 2007 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sound premise, weak conclusions
It's certainly true that the injuries and subsequent mediocre record shouldn't be a surprise. There were just too many key players who were known health risks to expect all of them - or even most of them - to stay healthy. When Beane told Blez that the A's were "due" for some better luck with health this year, I really wondered if he was 1) joking 2) trying to put one over on us 3) much, much stupider than we all thought.
But I have a couple of problems with the subsequent analysis. Nico's main point here seems to be that Beane should have simply gotten rid of Bradley and Harden (and perhaps Crosby) and would then have been "compelled to find suitable replacements." But that seems like pure wishful thinking. Neither of those players makes so much money that we could have had a worthwhile free agent instead, and their trade values in March - though certainly higher than they are now - probably still weren't high enough to fetch a good everyday player or a top prospect. So instead of Bradley and Harden at best we could have had a couple more "non-plus" players of the Shannon Stewart type. As it turns out, that would have been a little better, but not enough to make a difference, or to make the move a good idea. Think of it this way: while a lottery ticket is a very poor retirement plan, if you reach retirement age and all you have is a couple of lottery tickets, ripping them up before the drawing or selling them each for $1 isn't going to improve your life. And in the case of Crosby, it's easy to rag on his hitting, but much harder than people think to find a reasonable alternative. (Hint: Marco Scutaro is not the answer. Neither is Julio Lugo.)
The other big problem is that the focus is on a few players that Nico dislikes for one reason or another, but it could equally be applied to a few of his favorites, who get only a passing mention - Kotsay, Chavez, and Piazza. All three are making significant free-agent salaries - thus representing, more than the other players, huge wasted opportunity costs - and all have also been predictably injured and/or mediocre, with only Chavez contributing even a shred of positive value to the team. These are the real (You can add Kendall to that list as well, of course, but he was already 100% sunk cost coming into the season, and his total awfulness is not worth dwelling on.)
by andeux on Jul 10, 2007 11:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Harden had a lot of trade value
in March. If Beane would have put him on the market there would have been a few teams interested and offering top prospects for him. The Mets being at the forefront.
by IndianaAsfan on Jul 10, 2007 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You go into the season with the team
by ak_A on Jul 10, 2007 11:46 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
love the one you're with?
ah, the immortal wisdom of Stephen Stills.
by jubjub on Jul 10, 2007 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmm... I prefer the wisdom of David Crosby
I think that Swisher plays better with a hangover. Maybe they should let the Budweiser back into the clubhouse...
by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Jul 10, 2007 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
was trying mimic rumsfield's quote...but
maybe some of our lyricists could put words to CS&Nash's sweet judy blue eyes....but make it...for our Crosby...sweet bunny popups.
by ak_A on Jul 10, 2007 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or for us Broadway types,
by iglew on Jul 10, 2007 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Second Half Prediction:
Jason Perry gets called up and goes on a Cust-like tear following a Snelling-like tear to Cust's knee.
Seriously, Perry looks like he's ready (18HR's, ~.950OPS), but having him in the same outfield as Cust might resemble some of our former softball teams of past, which were at least fun to watch. At this point, that should be our goal for the second half - have some fun with the team.
by jubjub on Jul 10, 2007 11:53 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Bring. Back. Rickey.
by monkeyball on Jul 10, 2007 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean, that kid from Mendudo?
by kaweahkaweah on Jul 10, 2007 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mendudo?
Is that like a masculine version of Menudo?
by Poppy on Jul 10, 2007 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
That's Bill and Ted's name of their band in the Spanish version of "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" instead of Wyld Stallions.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Jul 10, 2007 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nico
Obviously, this is the low point of the season. So, yes, right now the glass is about 1/4 full. It's difficult to imagine the A's being over .500 the rest of the season. Very difficult. A big part of that, though, is because all their awfulness is in full relief. At this moment, there are maybe 7-8 players fans would rally around keeping (Buck, Cust, Ellis, Haren, Blanton, Gaudin, Casilla, Street). Everybody else seems mediocre or worse.
But if we just let this year go a bit, we can feel better about '08 or even '09. Much of what has been plaguing us is likely to go away. Bradley is already gone. Kendall will be. I can't imagine they'll go into another season with Harden counted on in the rotation (we've all been disabused of that illusion, finally). They now know unequivically who Crosby is. What they can do, I'm not sure, but they do know.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the last 2-3 have been characterized by excessive uncertainty, and I think that next year won't feel so much like that. I'm not saying we'll be a playoff team. I'm not even saying we'll be that good--though there've been some very positive developments for the future (Buck, Barton, Suzuki, Cust, Gaudin, Casilla, Haren, Blanton).
I'm just saying that next year I don't think as A's fans we'll have to deal with all this shit about injuries and false promise, at least not as much as we've had to deal with it the past couple of years.
by RLangford on Jul 10, 2007 12:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If possible, probably the best approach
is to spend the available money on a new SS and then trade Crosby--who I do believe still has some trade value--to shore up another area of concern (be it strengthening the back end of the rotation, deepening the bullpen, or adding a decent hitting platoon player, etc.). Whether the A's can afford to bring in a good SS is the question...
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to Cots, this year's FA SSs are:
David Eckstein STL
Cesar Izturis * CHC
Ramon E Martinez* LAD
John McDonald TOR
Neifi Perez DET
Juan Uribe * CHW
Omar Vizquel SF
So... yeah. Seems like a new SS would have to come by trade.
by mikeA on Jul 10, 2007 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Inspiring group there, huh?
by BlameChannel53 on Jul 10, 2007 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll take Eckstein--
Ellis would give him some added UnIcOrN PoWeR fo' shizzle.
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Pluckiest Middle Infield In The League
by Poppy on Jul 10, 2007 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Poppy stopped crying!!!! :-}
Pluck you.
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eckstein
is 32, and has a career OPS of .712. Crosby is 27 and has a career OPS of .701 (an awful .613 this year, though).
Aside from Uribe (.723, age 27), everyone else on the list is older than Crosby and a worse hitter. This just reinforces the fact that finding a good-hitting shortstop is a lot harder than people seem to think, and explains why Beane is willing to give Crosby so many chances (even if AN isn't).
by andeux on Jul 10, 2007 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Piazza vs Cust
If you believe "players tend to find their career norms by the end" then the A's should be playing Piazza as DH. I personally have not yet jumped on the "Cust the Savior" bandwagon. I would much rather see a future hall-of-famer Piazza batting clean-up than Cust swinging for the fences. I'm very surprised that Piazza isn't complaining loudly to the media about the way the A's are sitting him. He has said publically for several weeks that his shoulder is ok for hitting. The only explanation is there is no room on the roster for both Cust and Piazza and since Cust can't be sent down Piazza's DL is extended. When he can throw he'll be the backup catcher and Suzuki will be sent down (and at that time the A's will be paying nearly $20mil for their two catchers!). Piazza has also got to be pissed about what this is doing to his value as a free agent for 2008.
No doubt Cust will be the DH in 2008. I'm fine with that but not as the clean-up hitter. He's got too many holes in his swing and strikes out too often to bat cleanup. Typically a high HR/strikeout hitter bats 5th or 6th in the line-up.
by bolt on Jul 10, 2007 12:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I want them both in
Bring Piazza back as DH, and suffer Cust in the outfield for the rest of the season.
Next year Cust is the regular DH.
I can't believe they really want Piazza to catch. I've always assumed it was a stall tactic for some sort of roster deal, but at this point I can't figure out what they're stalling for any more.
(Maybe there's an insurance clause that pays better if Piazza stays longer on the DL and Beane is exploiting a loophole? If so, we'll probably never know.)
by iglew on Jul 10, 2007 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't figure this one out either
The one problem with playing Cust in the OF is it means sitting two of Buck, Stewart, Kotsay, Swisher, and Johnson--and there you have some of the few positive contributors offensively and the only really good defensive OFer to offset Cust.
But what they ARE thinking is beyond me. I can't think Piazza will ever actually catch for the A's and lord knows they need his bat in there NOW (even if they have no place to put it).
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the only way this gets done
is to move DJ via a trade. Swisher goes to 1B and then we have Kotsay, Buck, Stewart and Cust in the OF with Cust getting the occasional start at DH. And assuming Piazza's shoulder gets well in August, we have more options and roster flexibility with Piazza potentially catching Loaiza and whoever steps in for Harden.
by oak1 on Jul 10, 2007 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But they need a need a bat
at C, SS, and CF, so it really only helps if they put Cust in the OF and Piazza at DH. And if we're going to bench Kotsay, Cust/DJ/Swisher/Stewart/Buck seems like a better avenue.
by mikeA on Jul 10, 2007 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
benching Kotsay
isnt going to work. he's already pulled fits in the past with Macha for sitting him when he had his back problems. Unless Billy decides to trade Kotsay but i dont think that would be selling high and Billy may not want to disrupt the "clubhouse chemistry" by doing this.
by oak1 on Jul 10, 2007 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think they will actually bench him
and that's a big reason Piazza isn't back.
by mikeA on Jul 10, 2007 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The question is, what WILL they do?
They won't play him at DH, they won't play him at C, they aren't trading him now--so one could conclude they'll trade him to a National League team that wants him as soon as he can catch. There's a team that stupid out there that they'll put Piazza behind the plate? Doubt it.
Meanwhile, when Buck went on the DL, why didn't we activate Piazza to DH (Cust to the OF) in Buck's absence? Coulda used him and actually had a spot for him.
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd say it's to trade him
I don't think they'll get anything much, but an NL team would at least take him, whereas an AL team (except maybe Minnesota) would not.
Even with Buck out, they may have preferred Cust/DJ/Stewart/Kotsay/Swisher, which also avoids the problem of having to bench him when Buck returns.
by mikeA on Jul 10, 2007 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No trade before July 21?
What to do with the investment in 15,000 Piazza bobbleheads?
by Steve in Napa on Jul 10, 2007 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
that's the only route that improves the offense without a major trade. and i dont think a major trade gets done because the a's just dont have much to sell in return without mortgaging the future.
by oak1 on Jul 10, 2007 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bradley DFA Was A Disaster
This post is well-argued, but I still think the A's were in the hunt ... until the Bradley DFA. I'm not speaking from hindsight - I said at the time it was an unmitigated disaster that had better have a really good explanation.
According to Peter Gammons today, there really isn't a very good explanation:
"As for Bradley, when A's manager Bob Geren told him his playing time would be limited, with Nick Swisher, Mark Kotsay and Travis Buck in the outfield and Jack Cust crushing at DH, he says he asked to be traded. "They were frustrated by my injuries, and I don't blame them," says Bradley. "I was frustrated, too. I want to play. I want to win. I'm a free agent at the end of the season, and I'd like to play.
"The A's were good about this. The original trade was to Kansas City, and I told Dayton Moore that I had an oblique problem and might not be able to play for a few days. So the deal was off. But as it turned out, San Diego might be the perfect place. We really have a chance to win here."
So there's the potential real answer: there was no room for Bradley because the A's needed space for Kotsay and Buck in the outfield, and, presumably, DJ at first
Can you find the small problem with this thinking?
by solotar on Jul 10, 2007 12:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Bradley
That sounds pretty sugar coated and PR spinned regarding his behavior. I think it was a little more severe and gave the A's more of a ultimatum.
by ogallalabob on Jul 10, 2007 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would have too
Bradley healthy sitting in favor of Kotsay or Buck (I love the rookie, but not more than a healthy Bradley), or because Cust has to play in the outfield sometimes?
by OaklandSi on Jul 10, 2007 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why would you
prefer Bradley to Buck. Buck's numbers are significantly better than Bradley's.
by IndianaAsfan on Jul 10, 2007 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's been significantly healthier too
but that's not my point. Buck is an exciting rookie who will get better. Bradley when healthy can carry a team...as we saw in the postseason.
by OaklandSi on Jul 10, 2007 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Last year in the postseason
I agree - Bradley was the team's best player. However, it is the only time he has "carried" a team. It seems to me to be the exception rather than the rule. His career numbers are rather pedestrian to be saying he can carry a team when healthy. Buck, IMO, has a far greater upside than Bradley. With Bradley what you see is what you'll continue to get.
by IndianaAsfan on Jul 10, 2007 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The A's are usually good at "selling high"
Lately it seems they've done too much "selling low" (as will be the case with Harden, and BoCro, if dealt)
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
W/ Bradley
It should have been:
LF: Buck/Stewart (platoon)
CF1: Bradley CF2: Kotsay
RF: Cust/Kielty (DFA Kielty if you need room)
1B: Swisher
DH: Piazza/DJ/Cust
There's plenty of flexibility in the Outfield to get everyone their AB's...alas, Jay Payton last season.
by Colorado Fan on Jul 10, 2007 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alas Jay Payton
by IndianaAsfan on Jul 10, 2007 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kotsay
After seeing Kotsay the last month or so, I don't think there's much of a difference between Kotsay & Bradley.
by Colorado Fan on Jul 10, 2007 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm confused
Are you referring to the 1-13 Bradley put up as the A's were sweeping the Twins, or the 9-18 while the A's were getting clobbered by the Tigers?
by grover on Jul 10, 2007 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with
Alien, andeux, and Blez, to the extent anyone cares.
by mikeA on Jul 10, 2007 1:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If more people care, you'll agree with them more?
by monkeyball on Jul 10, 2007 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll agree with the people who care,
in light of their excellent judgment.
by mikeA on Jul 10, 2007 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do too, especially Alien's point
that when the nucleus came from the farm system everything else fell into place much better. Right now, we're relying on Harden and Crosby, not 2003-04 versions of Hudson and Tejada--beeeg difference.
PaulThomas' point about gambles is well taken too. One year of unsuccessful gambles out of 5 doesn't mean the strategy is wrong, just unsuccessful. I just wish the A's would find a different strategy than relying on players this chronically injured or, in Crosby's case, this chronically mediocre. But sadly, as many have pointed out, alternatives do not always abound.
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Something to this
One thing I-- and perhaps the front office-- didn't account for is the frustration factor of injuries. We're all feeling it, and I think it's natural (if unfair) to get down on backup players for not being as good as the starters, even when they were more or less expected to see a lot of playing time because of injuries. (Remember when Steve Young used to back up Joe Montana? Everyone hated seeing Montana get hurt, even though Young was an exceptional backup who later became an exceptional starter. The 49ers might have been better off letting Montana go sooner than they did, for precisely this reason. Then again, maybe not.)
This may be an unusual case where adopting the correct strategy in terms of winning games may nonetheless be the wrong business move because it aggravates the fanbase. Not having a market research study in hand, I'll have to leave it as a "posed problem."
by PaulThomas on Jul 10, 2007 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Going into the season
To some degree there is limited things a GM can do from season to season. To some degree your stuck playing the hand your dealt or dealt yourself the 3 years prior .
Harden is too cheap and talented to give up on you have commited yourself to Crosby and Chavez. The free agent market and especially SP pretty much exploded. Once Meche set the market price the A's were done with bringing in a free agent pitcher.
The bottom line is that the A's built the team to get a average SP to go 5-6 innings give up 3 runs and maybe give the pen a break on Harren and if healthy Harden's starts, then have the bullpen to come in a shut teams down. (personally I think this setup was why Zito excelled go 5-6 give up 3) But what was supposed to be a strength has turned into a weakness with Calero's ineffectiveness, Dukes and Street. which has caused Embree to be used out of position.
by ogallalabob on Jul 10, 2007 1:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
The pen at the beginning of the season was fantastic. Then everyone caught Hardenitis and got hurt.
by 3Chavy3 on Jul 10, 2007 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
senior players
one of my worries with the a's team is that billy and the a's management cut a little too much slack for the "senior players". i'm talking about kendall, kotsay, chavez, crosby. these players get a bye for non-performance on the field for the "intangibles" that they bring whether it is "leadership in the clubhouse" or "calling a good game". in the past, the a's have been able to get the right mix of seniors with a positive work ethic and a winning attitude.
i dont mind cutting a little more slack for past performance and prior track record of success but there comes a limit when the seniors should step up and earn their right to lead this team. i dont know what's happening behind the scenes but i sure do hope that billy and geren set the tone as they have in past seasons and light a fire under some of these senior players who earn a fat paycheck and just dont produce in key situations and lead by example on the field.
by oak1 on Jul 10, 2007 1:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wish I could be a BoCro booster...
but he's making it very difficult. I don't know if he's still getting over injuries, or if the long rash of injuries is messing with his head or what his mental state is that's preventing him from getting to his potential, but he's a black hole on that team. I do think he has huge potential, and maybe it's right to be patient with him. It's not like he's bringing down a first place team (ala Lugo), so there's not as much pressure to turn it around. But I can't help but shake my head whenever I watch the guy. His body language has "head case" all over it...maybe the non-english speaking pitchers won't be able to read it written all over him.
With Chavy we always hear the line "30 homers, 100rbis every year", and I love the guy, but is he gonna produce like that again? Maybe his glove is enough to offset that.
First base probably needs to get figured out, and I would imagine that's gonna be a DJ trade. By the way, for those of us that are too lazy, how are Barton's AAA stats comparing to DJs AAA stats? Is he projecting to be better than DJ? I seem to remember DJ tearing up AAA for a long time, and we all thought he was the next coming of Mattingly...
I thought Kotsay was gonna go on a tear once he got back. I'm still waiting. It could still happen, but maybe he does need to be a bench player now.
The surprises this year have been wonderful, and keep me watching. I don't know if I've rooted for a guy as much as I root for Cust. Suzuki, Buck, Casilla, gaudin, all have been great to watch. I wish I could say the same of Braden and Komine and Ryan Glenn, oh, I mean Colby Lewis. That's about 50/50 which is a pretty good percentage.
If anything, I think the A's should really go with the youngsters for the rest of the season (not like they aren't already I guess), and find someone to play SS to put some pressure on Croz. Hey I went to Long Beach State, I want the guy to do well. Largely I'm looking at outfield spots (Kotsay) and catcher (Kendall) to get more time from youngsters to see how they perform.
I think it's very odd that the A's continually get bitten with the injury bug along with the no offense bug no matter who is on the team. Kotsay used to hit the hell out of the ball, so did Kendall...no matter who comes to this team (Johnny Damon, I'm looking in your direction now) they stop hitting. Big hurt being a nice exception, at least for 2/3 of the season.
wow, what a rant...did I even make a point?
by giambizombie on Jul 10, 2007 2:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Dan Johnson
has had consistently better stats than Barton in AAA. Johnson averaged around .310 with an OPS around .950 while in AAA.(rough averages) Barton has hit .320 with an OPS of 885 this year.
by dbuzi123 on Jul 10, 2007 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The main difference, though,
is that Barton is at the same stage 5 years younger.
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
we have too many players like DJ
on this team. who on the a's would you pick to break up a no hitter by a tough pitcher? -- probably Stewart, Ellis and Buck: hitters who have a sweet swing and show consistency at the plate. DJ crushes lower quality pitching but i dont see him coming through consistently in the clutch or keeping a rally going. his overall stats. are probably going to be league average but at 1B/DH we really need more consistency and run production.
by oak1 on Jul 10, 2007 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm seriously just waiting for the A's
to sign a hitter named Lee Gaverage.
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I rather suspect that we will actually sign
a hitter named Joe Gavin as he would be just below Lee Gaverage
by AsFanInLA on Jul 10, 2007 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So are you saying
that Chad Gaudin is just above Lee Gaverage
by iglew on Jul 10, 2007 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is really too true
I think this is also why so many people are missing Bradely, even though his career numbers may not be extraordinary. We seem to have a lot of guys that can hit bad pitching and take walks, but not so many guys that are truly great hitters.
by dbuzi123 on Jul 10, 2007 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come to Oakland and stop hitting
Part of that is the home park. It's well documented that the Coliseum favors pitchers over hitters, even if there's some disagreement about exactly why (ie, how much of it is due to the large foul territory).
For the same reason, there's a tendency for our pitchers to get worse when they leave here for somewhere else.
The rest of the difference, I suspect, is coincidence plus the bias of our selective memories.
by iglew on Jul 10, 2007 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm curious...
since everyone seems to be putting Ellis on their hypothetical 2008 rosters... How many times have the Beane A's picked up a player's option year?
I don't know if my gut feeling has any factual basis, but any time I see "team option" I automatically decide that player will be gone to free agency that year.
by Poppy on Jul 10, 2007 2:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It's also interesting that Melillo
is touted by many scouts as being one of the few "plus hitters" in the A's farm system, and he's a 2Bman.
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who knows?
I find it increasingly difficult to guess what Beane might do in any given situation. I guess the decision depends on whether Beane thinks Murphy or Melillo are ready to play every day at 2B, and whether Beane would rather use the $5 million to acquire/sign someone else or resign one of his free agents (Stewart? Kendall?).
by BlameChannel53 on Jul 10, 2007 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just because someone suggests
that Kendall might be resigned doesn't make it remotely likely.
by mikeA on Jul 10, 2007 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was kidding about Kendall
I've said before that Kendall was gone after this season, and even used "book it" after my comment. As much as I've been mystified by some of Beane's moves, I find it very hard to believe that Beane would step on the same mine twice.
by BlameChannel53 on Jul 10, 2007 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty much always
With the home-grown players signed through their arbitration years, Beane has always either kept them until they were eligible for free agency (Zito, Tejada, Giambi, Chavez) or traded them (Long, Hernandez, Hudson, Mulder).
There's no chance he'll decline Ellis' option and let him leave for nothing when he can keep him at below-market cost for another year.
by andeux on Jul 10, 2007 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Pretty much always"? Really?
Geez.
{kicks self in stupid gut}
by Poppy on Jul 10, 2007 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has a cheaper-than-is-typical
option and is well worth the money for next year. That said, Melillo would not be too steep of a downgrade, and would obviously be a lot cheaper.
So it's hard to say.
by mikeA on Jul 10, 2007 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even if we want to start Melillo
I think it's probably more efficient to pick up Ellis's option and then trade him. Ellis has trade value.
by iglew on Jul 10, 2007 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's true
Ok, they will pick up his option.
by mikeA on Jul 10, 2007 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Ellis on a one-year contract for $5 million would definitely have trade value. The option will get picked up; the real question is whether Ellis actually plays for the A's under that option.
by BlameChannel53 on Jul 10, 2007 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I'm wondering--
Ellis could be one of the team's few trade chips; maybe Melillo steps in and Ellis is used to get us...Well, probably Lee Gaverage, but it doesn't matter because Gaverage will get hurt.
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course.
Gaverage is totally fragile.
by Poppy on Jul 10, 2007 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good Question
Did we pick up options w/ Hudson, Mulder, and/or Zito.
Current Club Options:
Swisher 2012 - 10.5M
Chavez 2011 - 12.5M
Haren 2010 - 6.75M
Loaiza 2009 - 7.5M
Embree 2009 - 3M
Harden 2009 - 7M
Ellis 2008 - 5M
- Harden's Contract surprises me. We're only on the hook w/ him thru next season, and he doesn't have a buy-out.
- Too bad we don't have a club option for Crosby. Looks like we're stuck w/ his contract thru 2009
by Colorado Fan on Jul 10, 2007 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't think there was an option on Hudson...
and wasn't Mulder's last contract year 2005 (not option)?
by Poppy on Jul 10, 2007 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jay Payton
We picked up the option on Payton before the 2006 season. I can't think of any others in recent years. I think maybe the last one before that was Mike Magnante for the 2002 season.
Typically if we intend to keep a guy we do a contract extension before the option year comes up.
by iglew on Jul 10, 2007 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He won't be a free agent yet
If the A's decline the option and refuse to offer arbitration, they get no compensation picks. If they refuse the option and offer arbitration, he has to accept and they likely end up paying him more.
Besides, Beane loves Ellis. Everyone loves Mark Ellis. Even Terry Francona.
They'll pick up the option.
by PaulThomas on Jul 10, 2007 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The very simple
and oft repeated remark is closer to it IMO. It's the combination of some poor planning and a great deal of bad luck. Yes, some guys were sure to get injured. But we have guys getting DLed that were a surprise. But I won't go on. This thought has been posted by the many ,many,many a time before.
by IM4Oakgal on Jul 10, 2007 4:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
We need an open thread for the game.
by Jennifer on Jul 10, 2007 5:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
DERE'S WUN OPIN YU FUUL!!!!
GEEZ WADDUZ IT TAKE TU PLEAZE U PEEPLE??????
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
some comments
Start with Harden and Bradley, arguably the A’s ace and #3 hitter going into the season. Had Oakland cut ties with these guys in the off-season, perhaps Beane would have been compelled to find suitable replacements. Instead, we spent most of the season’s first three months eagerly waiting for Godot and Godoter—while trotting out Kennedy and DiNardo, Langerhans and Kielty, because help was "on the way soon". That’s just a dumb way to build a team, folks, especially if you’re a low payroll team that can’t afford to book 6 quality starters and 4 quality starting outfielders.
One should have expected Bradley to play around 100 games. Harden was a wild card, but what he's done since spring training is pretty much worst case scenario. What would you have done with these two players?
Kennedy was likely to be in the rotation whether or not Harden was. Anyway, Kennedy and DiNardo have put up a 3.95 ERA as starters this year. That's excellent work from the back of the rotation.
Langerhans played one game for the A's, and Kielty hasn't played all that much either. Yes, it sucks that they had to play Putnam and such so much. They had Kotsay, Bradley, Swisher, Stewart, and Kielty as OF to start the year with Buck and Bocachica available in AAA. The should have expected injuries, especially with Kotsay and Bradley, but they couldn't really have expected Kotsay and Johnson to both be out in April causing Swisher to move to 1B.
When was the last time Esteban Loaiza pitched effectively two years in a row? Despite the fact that this is Loiaza’s 13th major league season, the correct answer is, in fact, never. This is less surprising if you realize that ELo’s career ERA is 4.62, that he has only won more than 12 games in a season once, that 4 of 7 times he has won in double figures he has also lost in double figures, that 4 of his season ERAs since 2001 have been 4.89, 5.70, 5.71, and 5.02, and that what he has been best known for in his career is his inconsistency. Obviously, the A’s thought Loaiza would be healthy, but actually history suggests that if healthy ELo would likely be underwhelming us with his performance one way or the other.
I don't know what trotting out double figure wins totals and cherry picking poor seasons is supposed to prove. Loaiza had a pretty good injury history when he came to Oakland. He also projected to be a better than average SP (an excellent 2003, a mediocre 2004, and a very good 2005). Expecting him to suck or be injured for all of 2007 was very far from a given. Yes, you may have thought that Loaiza would suck, but you also thought Johnson would suck. The numbers suggest otherwise.
But the A's had a ton of SP options should Loaiza--or any pitcher--get hurt. They had Halsey, Gaudin, DiNardo, Windsor, Braden...
Yes, many of these crapped out, but the A's have gotten very good work out of all of their SP outside of 5 starts from Braden/Lewis. I don't really see what you're complaining about.
Beane is fond of saying that you need to build the team you believe in and then don’t panic halfway through, because players tend to find their career norms by the end. Does Billy realize that Bobby Crosby’s career norm is to be a very poor hitter?
Entering 2007, here's what we knew about Crosby's hitting: Excellent 2003 in AAA, averagish (for a SS) rookie year in 2004, very good shortened season in 2005, and an awful 2006. He has hit like 2006 again, but that wasn't his career norm.
The sample is now 19 months and Crosby’s average has been below .250 in 12 of the 19 months, while his OBP, currently a whopping .309 for his career, has been at .316 or below for 11 of the 19 months (and .333 or below for 14 of the 19 months).
What is the point of splitting a player's career up into months? Is it simply to devalue his excellent month in 2005? Do you think this gives a better overall view of a player than his stats as a whole, or do you think it just emphasizes your point better?
So the A’s, who believe strongly that players, over time, will find their career norms, decided to rely heavily on two starting pitchers, an OFer, and a SS, who have given the A’s exactly what they should have expected: absence and disappointment.
Can you please point out what career norms suggested Loaiza wouldn't pitch at all? Or that Bradley would have his most injury-riddled year yet? Or how Crosby's pre-2006 somehow no longer exists?
Just to be clear, what would have been "good planning" to you? Buying average players to be backups at every position? Do you know how much an average player costs on the open market?
The A's are far from a perfect team, and Beane has made many mistakes, but this mostly isn't valid criticism.
by Danny on Jul 10, 2007 5:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The reason Nico (and others) split via month
Is that the numbers are readily available and they give a more accurate picture than looking at season totals. If a player has an incredible month during the year but posts average or below numbers the rest of the year then his overall total will look better than his actual performance during the year. For example, in 2005 Baltimore Orioles 2B Brian Roberts hit 18 HR, that's well above average power for a 2B. And if that's all you looked at, you'd conclude that Roberts showed above average power through the course of the season. But if you looked at his monthly splits you'd notice that Roberts hit 8 of his HR in 95 April AB. He hit the other 10 HR over the course of 466 AB through the rest of the season. 1 HR in 46.6 AB is not the ratio of a player with consistent above average power. He had a fluke April in terms of his power hitting.
That's not a criticism, just illustrating that relying on season totals can give you a false image of the player.
by grover on Jul 10, 2007 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
If Roberts hit 3 HR each month or all 18 of his HR in one month, would that alter his projection going forward? If so, why?
From everything I've read, it shouldn't matter at all.
by Danny on Jul 10, 2007 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry Danny, next time I'll look for a site
that splits the season by astrological signs. I use Yahoo, which insists on using months. If you want full seasons, fine: Crosby has batted less than .240 in three of his four seasons. My point is that if you zoom in further, he is still terrible, on a regular basis, over time.
K, hang on...Just did some more research, and Crosby also sucks during periods of Gemini, Cancer...
Remind me again, when were the two seasons in a row where Loiaza was effective?
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL, that's Loaiza
Loiaza rocks!
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about
trying to use statistics in ways that are meaningful, rather than manipulating them to fit your preconceived notions.
by andeux on Jul 10, 2007 6:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But why?
You can joke about astrology, but that doesn't make your point legitimate. Why not look at a player's whole record instead of saying he's hit worse than .240 in X of Y units?
It's obvious that the reason you chose .240, and did it by month, was to prove your point--not to actually analyze anything. It can be fun and interesting to cherry pick stats (like you did with Loaiza and double digit wins), but it's not useful analysis.
by Danny on Jul 10, 2007 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, the reason I broke down Crosby and Loaiza
further was because people tend to obsess over Crosby's two good months and Loiaza's one great season--bits of a career that help the overall numbers look better (though ironically, still not good). When you look month by month, you see that Crosby USUALLY sucks as much as his career ledger. When you look at Loiaza year by year, you see that any year he's not bad he follows it up by being bad.
If you just want to look at the two careers as wholes, my point is hardly disproven. Over his career, Crosby is a very poor hitter (.243/.309) and Loaiza is a very mediocre pitcher (4.62 career ERA).
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Breakdowns
people tend to obsess over Crosby's two good months and Loiaza's one great season--bits of a career that help the overall numbers look better (though ironically, still not good).
Better than what? Not better than his actual numbers. Better than they would look if you excluded his best months? Sure, but how is ignoring a player's good months a good way to project them?
If people are overvaluing Crosby's two good months (as opposed to just counting them as they would any two months), that's still not a reason to completely ignore them.
When you look at Loiaza year by year, you see that any year he's not bad he follows it up by being bad.
What is your point with the alternating years? Are you suggesting Loaiza is likely to have a bad year because he had a good second half of 2006? If his 2006 season was worse, would he have a better chance of a good 2007 because it wouldn't make two consecutive good years?
It's an interesting observation, but it doesn't really speak to his overall ability.
If you just want to look at the two careers as wholes, my point is hardly disproven. Over his career, Crosby is a very poor hitter (.243/.309) and Loaiza is a very mediocre pitcher (4.62 career ERA).
You said Crosby's career norm was a very bad hitter entering the season. He had a .244/.319/.405 career line entering 2006. The average AL SS has a .269/.323/.389 line this year. So Crosby entered the season with an averagish career batting line for a SS, with good defense, yet it was poor planning to think he'd be OK?
Now, Crosby has an career OPS+ of 83. The average SS has an OPS+ of 89. He makes up most of that with his glove, but, yeah, he still probably comes out as a bit below average for his position. But he's not very bad, and he certainly wasn't before the year.
Loaiza has a 98 career ERA+, while the average starting pitcher is at 95 or 96. So your point about how he wouldn't even be helping if he were healthy doesn't make much sense, unless you think DiNardo is the answer at the back of the rotation (and you seem to think he's not).
by Danny on Jul 10, 2007 11:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the way
Whoever was using SP Wins as a measuring device should know better. Wins are one of the worst thing to use when trying to evaluate pitchers.
by grover on Jul 11, 2007 7:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's keep it simple
Lets pretend a player hits .250 for the year. That pretty much marks him as average.
In the 1st half of the season he hit .300.
In the 2nd half of the season he hit .200.
Same number of AB each half season.
Now, the overall number says he was an average hitter. But the reality is he was a good hitter in the 1st half and a bad hitter in the second.
Looking at his overall season number does not tell an accurate story.
by grover on Jul 11, 2007 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, this was for Danny
In case there's any confusion.
by grover on Jul 11, 2007 7:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Accuracy
Looking at his overall season number does not tell an accurate story.
His season stats tell the story of what he actually did that season. What could be more accurate that that? You could be more detailed, but breaking down a season into smaller chunks of time doesn't necessarily lead to more clarity or a more accurate projection.
by Danny on Jul 11, 2007 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know you're not an idiot
I've explained this as simply as I know how. I'm sure you understand the concept by now, if you choose to believe/follow/idolize a less detailed way of looking at performance that's your business. Only using full season stats leaves you more prone to make mistakes when evaluating a player unless your only interest is in historical comparison.
by grover on Jul 11, 2007 9:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Curious
I would love to see you explain how to use monthly or weekly or whetever splits to get a more accurate projection going forward. What are the general rules of this process? Are good events bunched together less likely to be repeated than good events spaced out?
I'd also love to read why you think that's true.
by Danny on Jul 11, 2007 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've done exactly that
.300 hitter = GOOD
.200 hitter = BAD
I created a player who had only two possible settings: GOOD or BAD. In 1 half of the season he was good and in the other half he was bad. At the end of the year his batting = .250... which we're saying is average.
BUT AT NO POINT WAS HIS PERFORMANCE AVERAGE!
When he was going good, he was performing like someone worthy of HOF discussion. When he was going bad, he was performing like someone who is likely to lose his job. Yet you continue to insist on using season totals, you want to call this player "average". But that's a performance level he never exhibited during games.
Let's call the player Bobby Kielty.
He hits .300 vs LH pitching.
He hits .200 vs RH pitching.
His overall BA = .250. Does this mean that Bobby Kielty is an average hitter? Sure, you could say that but it doesn't really tell the story. Kielty MURDERS left handed pitching but he should never be allowed to face right handers. That's the real story and your year-end total misses it.
As for hard and fast rules... weekly splits will rarely show you anything other than who's hot or not. Monthly stats are used because the data is easily accessible, folks don't have to go through the boxscores and tally all the data. Monthly stats can show trends: does a young pitcher cut his BB total as the year goes on, does a vet see his numbers decline in the second half, and so on. When you look at a player's monthly numbers you get a better idea of how (and maybe why) he put up his season total.
But most importantly, you start asking more questions. Hmmm... Brian Roberts hit 8 of his 18 HR in the 1st month of the season, could his power numbers be a little fluke? Some other guy tanked in August, could he have been hurt? More questions generally means more answers and if you're really good (and/or lucky) that can lead to better answers. If you're just using someone's season totals, you see he hit .270 and that's pretty much as for as you can go with asking questions.
As for your last question, you're essentially asking about streakiness. But if you're still rejecting what I've already given you then there isn't much reason to carry on.
by grover on Jul 12, 2007 12:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Loaiza is another good example,
by Nico on Jul 12, 2007 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Loiaza is an example
But he's your example and I didn't want to steal your thunder. Besides, I'm busy creating fictional baseball players, I don't have time to think about the real ones!
by grover on Jul 12, 2007 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It does matter
Because Brian Roberts had never shown that type of power before. So if you were projecting forward (say for 2006) you'd have to at least ask yourself if some of that power production wasn't a fluke. In 2006, in almost the same number of overall AB, Roberts hit 10 HR. He's hit hit 5 HR thus far in 2007.
At this point, it seems pretty clear that his April '05 HR surge was a fluke, and to project him for 15-18 HR a season would be unrealistic.
Now, I picked Roberts for this discussion because I doubt many on this site have an emotional attachment to him like they do to players on the A's roster. You start looking at a player like Crosby, who has been so streaky over the course of his career, and the ties that bind can hamper an objective analysis.
Not that I think that's happening here.
You say Crosby had a very good 2005. I look at his numbers and say he had an incredible month of June and the rest of his '05 season falls well below the very good mark. Crosby finished with an 802 OPS that year, in June his OPS was 962. I'd do the math to show his 2005 OPS for all his non-June AB but I don't have the time. Safe to say though, it was a lot less than 962.
by grover on Jul 11, 2007 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Evidence
You have a hunch that a player who hits 18 HR in a month and none in the other 5 months will have less power going forward than a guy who hits 3 HR each of the 6 months. Do you have any evidence this is true, or is it just a gut feeling?
A player's stats are a sample of his true talent. If a player hits a HR on Saturday, why is it less impressive than if he had already hit 5 that week? Why does spacing out good performances indicate a better projection going forward? Couldn't one also argue that hitting so many HR in a short period of time is evidence of great power potential?
You seem to value consistency, but I don't see why of two similar overall performances the consistent one should be valued more or or why the consistent player should have a better projection going forward.
by Danny on Jul 11, 2007 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stats have very little to do with talent
They have everything to do with performance. There are plenty of talented players who produce next to nothing in the Show. Crosby has talent, what he struggles with is production. He can lay off the slider but he doesn't. He could go the other way more often but he doesn't. He has the talent to be a better hitter than he's generally shown but he isn't.
You have a hunch that a player who hits 18 HR in a month and none in the other 5 months will have less power going forward than a guy who hits 3 HR each of the 6 months.
The first guy has never existed, so yes, I believe that the guy who hits 3 HR a month for 6 months will produce better power than your baseball version of Santa Claus.
by grover on Jul 11, 2007 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong again
by andeux on Jul 10, 2007 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure who you're addressing, but
here are a couple simple stats if you don't like to zoom in because it feels "manipulated":
- Loaiza, in 12 seasons, has never had two seasons in a row in which his ERA was under 4.50. Ever.
- Bobby Crosby's career batting average is .243 with a .309 OBP.
You don't need to manipulate some guys' stats, because the stats speak for themselves.
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
...
Loaiza, in 12 seasons, has never had two seasons in a row in which his ERA was under 4.50. Ever.
Why do you think this is relevant? If pitcher A had a 4.40 ERA every year and pitcher B alternated between a 4.20 and 4.60 ERA, would you like one more than the other? Would you project them differently?
Bobby Crosby's career batting average is .243 with a .309 OBP.
And what was it entering 2007, when his "career norm" was so terrible?
by Danny on Jul 10, 2007 7:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get it, Danny
Your hypothetical pitchers A and B are both not very good, just like Loaiza over his career. You don't like the "cherry picking" that Loiaza has had a terrible ERA (over 5.00) 4 of the last 7 years, nor do you like the broader stat that over 12 years he has never had a decent (sub 4.50) ERA twice in a row. How do you refute that he has "not been consistently good"? He hasn't. Half the time he's terrible, and he's never not-bad two years in a row.
Before 2007, Crosby's career batting average was .244 with an OBP (IIRC) of about .311. In other words, he is currently hitting to his norm--not very good--except that he appears to be getting just a little worse.
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cherry picking
You don't like the "cherry picking" that Loiaza has had a terrible ERA (over 5.00) 4 of the last 7 years, nor do you like the broader stat that over 12 years he has never had a decent (sub 4.50) ERA twice in a row.
Those stats don't tell me much about how good of a pitcher Loaiza is; they tell me you're trying to convince me Loaiza's not good. They're very clearly cherry picked to reinforce a point you've already made.
You're using stats like a drunkard uses a lamp post--for support rather than illumination.
by Danny on Jul 11, 2007 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Using stats for support,
Loaiza's career ERA: 4.62. Crosby's career BA and OBP: .243/.309. What could be more broad, and less cherry-picking, than that?
The reason you keep taking issue with my methodology is that no matter how you slice it, those two guys have not put up successful numbers throughout their careers--so rather than arguing that they're any good you're taking issue with any way I present the data, even when I merely show their entire career stats, which I've now done multiple times.
Face it: You haven't argued that those two guys are any good because they aren't.
by Nico on Jul 11, 2007 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Faced
there's a novelty!
Perhaps it's not that novel, but at least realize you're arguing like an advocate rather than an analyst.
Loaiza's career ERA: 4.62.
Which is better than the average starting pitcher (once adjusted for park and league).
Crosby's career BA and OBP: .243/.309.
Which is below average for a SS, but not "very poor." He has an 83 career OPS+. This year, of the 28 SS with at least 200 PA, 16 are above that. So it's the bottom half, but also the middle third. And his defense makes up for that, bringing him close to average for his "career mark"
So your claims that a healthy Loaiza wouldn't help and that Crosby's career mark sucks aren't really true. And the cherry-picked stats you used to try to show that cloud the picture more than they clarify it.
by Danny on Jul 11, 2007 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I'm "more
Peace out.
by Nico on Jul 11, 2007 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, you obviously don't like reality, so
why not play a full season of MLB '07 on the PS2 as Crosby and use those stats to extropolate the rest of his "actual" '07 and beyond.
Personally, given reality, I'd also rather use video game stats for my favorite team.
by Bacon on Jul 10, 2007 8:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, has Beane gone nuts??!
I just saw this..true!
Crosby signs 5-year, $43.5 million extension
Why in the heck would Beane do that??!!
Here's even more on it!
Crosby's deal includes a signing bonus of more than $5 million and is front-loaded. That means he'll make more in the early years, though a yearly breakdown was not immediately available.
Crosby's value each year of the deal is $8.7 million.
by One won lost won on Jul 10, 2007 10:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Little do A's fans know
how brilliant a hockey player Bobby Crosby is in his spare time. Rich Harden has taught him well.
by PaulThomas on Jul 10, 2007 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They can trade Stewart
Sell high when he's hot, plus they were counting on having Stewart for long term anyway.
Time it when Buck comes back from the DL, they'll be just right in # of OF's. They can play Kotsay, Swish, Buck in OF, DJ at 1B, and DH Cust.
If they can trade Stewart for a backup SS, even sweeter.
by asfansince1989 on Jul 10, 2007 8:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If they can package Stewie and Croz
for a startable SS, sweeter yet. Throw in Kennedy to get the right guy, as Kennedy is fact not appreciably better than DiNardo, and Loaiza's return will make him expendable.
by Nico on Jul 10, 2007 8:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
startable SS
Given how Crosby is hitting, I think there are a lot of mediocre shortstops who would be an upgrade (Loretta!), but I'm curious: Who do you think is "the right guy"? Seriously, excluding guys who clearly are no-way-in-hell going to be traded this season, who do you think is the best shortstop out there?
by iglew on Jul 11, 2007 2:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My dream--totally doable except possibly for $$--
is to re-acquire Tejada, whom the O's would like to move. We have Harden, Kennedy, Johnson, and Crosby to offer, all of whom play position where the O's could use an addition (if Miggy is traded). Tejada is not only a middle of the order hitter, but he's a righty, and he offers the spirit/intensity the A's need too. So that's my fantasy.
Otherwise, among attainables, hmm...Jack Wilson? (I'd take him in a heartbeat.) Or, aiming at players who would cost more in talent...Felipe Lopez? Tulowitzki? Wonder what they would cost.
by Nico on Jul 11, 2007 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs





















