Harden as closer? I'm taking the idea seriously
by bear88 on Jun 13, 2007 11:28 PM PDT
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PrintWith Street and Duchscherer out for the forseeable future, the A's will need bullpen reinforcements at some point this season. I've been pleasantly surprised by just about everyone in the bullpen lately, but it is not realistic to expect this sort of outperformance to continue.
Meanwhile, Rich Harden is getting close to being ready to pitch.
The A's have already talked about starting Harden's "rehab" in the bullpen. It's unclear to me why Harden would be any less injury-prone as a reliever than as a starter, but several factors are making me seriously consider the idea.
1) The A's starting rotation is outstanding. Weirdly enough, the A's don't actually need Harden in the rotation right now, and Loaiza will be back later in the summer in case of injury or a falling back to earth by Lenny DiNardo or Joe Kennedy.
2) The bullpen, meanwhile, is populated by guys who are pitching out of their heads. Maybe some of them are for real, but it's not realistic to think that all of them are.
3) Dan Haren is the best pitcher in the league. The A's do not need to hope that Harden gets healthy so he can be the ace of the staff. The team already has its ace.
4) Harden's chronic injury troubles render him useless. Shoot, the A's wouldn't get anything close to good value if they tried to trade him. In the past, I have hoped he would get past his injuries (none of which ever seem extraordinarily serious at first) and have been concerned about the impact of relief work on a brittle guy who hasn't ever done it consistently. Now I don't care, at least not as much. I want Harden on the mound, pitching if he can.
5) Harden's stuff is so dominant, when on, that he wouldn't need to use all of his pitches in a relief role. Maybe that's for the best. Taj Adib makes a specific argument, that Harden's changeup is what causes him problems, in his own diary. I don't know about that, but it is true that relievers don't need as many pitches. It's possible that Harden would not be well-suited, physically or temperamentally, to closer work. But you never know until you try.
In an ideal situation, I wouldn't be too enthused about this Harden-in-the-bullpen idea. The A's would have Street and/or Duchscherer and I would be happy to get what we can out of Harden in his starting role. But Street and Duchscherer are non-factors, and that is unlikely to change. The A's may already be thinking that Harden-as-closer is a risk worth taking. If they're not, though, I think they should be.
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Whenever this idea has come up before..
...I've laughed it out of here as being silliness.
But you're right, with the A's rotation performing like rock stars right now, if you were ever going to get a chance to experiment with Harden The Closer, this is that time.
And it'll give him a slightly less arduous return from injury.
I'm in.
Harden as a closer
wouldn't have to throw the changeup.
Harden the starter gets hurt throwing the changeup, and has trouble getting through the lineup the second time without it.
That's enough to convince me.
by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Jun 14, 2007 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Count me in, also.
Can't get any better than #1 in ERA in the MLB for the starting rotation.
If he can stay healthy as a closer, that moves a guy (Embree) who, I have to admit, I was wrong about, into a role he's probably more comfortable with.
And, if Harden performs as I suspect he will in the closer role, it'll make us almost unbeatable with a lead after 7 innnings. I doubt Geren will hesitate to bring him into the game in the 8th to get a 4 or 5 out save, if trouble develops. Unlike Street (and, even the latter-day Rivera), Harden would breeze through 4 or 5 batters without workin' up a sweat.
I don't think you were wrong
well, my mea culpa regarding Embree...
was not regarding his performance as closer, about which I didn't express an opinion, because I never considered it a possibility before this season started.
But, I had previously categorized him with Witasick as a worthless gas can waiting to explode. Clearly, I was mistaken in that characterization. At least, judging by his performance thusfar.
by FoolshGame22 on Jun 15, 2007 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions
I doubt Harden will be used as a closer at first.
Because he will need to work himself back into shape, and who knows when and how much he will need and be allowed to throw. But after he works himself into better shape, if he’s to stay in the bullpen, I’d prefer him not to be limited to the closer role. I actually would prefer Embree hold on to that spot, and simply use Harden to get the opposing team’s best hitters out in late game situations, and also in the highest leverage situations. Harden could be used very successfully to shut down any potential rallies opponents begin. Then when the game gets to the ninth for the easy mop up save, bring in Embree for that inning. However, if Harden is not given his change as a weapon to use, his effectiveness could be hurt significantly. I personally believe his change to be his best pitch, and it seems that he can control the movement on it much better than his split/fork ball. Often times he gets crazy downward movement on the split, but many times it doesn’t react as he would like and he hangs it. The change however, is thrown at about the same speed as his split and has a bunch of downward movement on it (just not quite as much as the successfully thrown split); but he doesn’t seem to hang the change like he does his split, and he can control it better.
Good idea...
rather than using Harden as a closer, use him as a "fireman," but with the modern caveat that he doesn't pitch more than maybe 30 or 40 pitches in an appearance.
Old School "firemen" sometimes would pitch much more than that.
by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Jun 14, 2007 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm in..."Harden for closer"
While I am happy at the job Embree has done so far I don't get the feeling he can keep it up.
He is not dominating out there.
Bottom line though is yes, he is getting it done.
But walks, a couple of hits etc. it looks like he might be getting a little tired from over use.
Harden has great stuff.
We all know that.
Why not give this a shot.
I remember another A's starter converted to closer and now he's in the HOF.
I think this a great idea
I like watching him pitch but I don't like seeing him hurt. Less innings pitched means less possibility of injury (in theory). But then again, Harden seems to get injured picking up a taco.
by mlleaimee on Jun 14, 2007 10:56 AM PDT reply actions
Those can be quite heavy
If filled with all that heavy cream and carmalized apples.
by mlleaimee on Jun 14, 2007 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Harden's sporadic control problems
gives me concern about seeing him in the bullpen at all, and more as a closer.
At times Harden takes about an inning or two to find his control - something any reliever cannot afford. It's not uncommon for him to throw 7 or 8 straight balls without a strike. For this reason, I can't agree with the "Harden as closer" contingent. I'm not saying he can't grow into the role sometime later in his career, but I think converting him to a closer anytime soon would be a mistake.
Don't go David Chase on me
But what's your point?
Do you mean this shows Harden shouldn't close, ever, based on the Nixon home run?
Do you mean this is evidence that Harden shouldn't close, because he doesn't have experience in the role, and may not be suited for it?
Was it just a throwaway line, signifying nothing more than your recollection of that game?
well, in the first place ...
... I'm with grover below (but even further down the road) -- I don't think Haren will ever be healthy enough to pitch in the majors.
Even if he is, though, I think having him close will be combustible. As oaktownmario mentioned above, Harden has trouble getting started and establishing his control early. And limiting his pitch selection will (a) render his fastball more hittable (due to both predictability and lack of speed variance), and (b) encourage the knucklehead to try and simply outmuscle hitters -- just as he did with Nixon.
Remember that Harden is still quite young and relatively inexperienced (especially in late-game/late-entering scenarios), and seems to be cut from the Crosby/Kendall "if I just play harder!" bolt.
In terms of results, I think Harden as closer would basically be Armando Benitez.
Warning: The next time I see
I don't think ...
... Nico will ever be healthy enough to post about the A's injuries.
Harden as closer...
is Eric Gagne. Canadian, injury-prone, best in the game if ever healthy.
by Cutthemullet on Jun 15, 2007 8:00 PM PDT up reply actions
and...wow
Kendall just hit another fucking double...I know this ain't the game thread, but it's where I'm at at the moment.
by Cutthemullet on Jun 15, 2007 8:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Harden for closer?
Sorry bear, I'm having a hard enough time picturing him as a pitcher for a professional baseball team.
just as long as they dont start him
i think he should start as a closer...then maybe become a new type of 2 inning closer, then he can start coming in some games in the 5th or 6th and finishing out a game
i just want to see SLOW and GRADUAL steps to him getting healthy
i dont want him to attempt anything over 70 pitches for a long long time
as a starter his era comes from the 3rd round of hitters more than most pitchers...he is pretty much a guaranteed first 3 scoreless innings, so why not see that in the later half of games...
by Mango on Jun 15, 2007 9:26 AM PDT reply actions
wait. should they start him as a closer ...
... or close him as a starter?
or maybe we could convert him to be a backup AAA catcher, and we could starrt him as a closser.
fireman fireman fireman fireman...
bring back the 2-3 inning stud reliever, like Rollie Fingers or Goose Gossage or Bruce Sutter or Joe Page or Dick Radatz...
Harden can be that guy...
by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on Jun 15, 2007 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't know where to put him
but you probably can't trade him now, because you wouldn't get enough value. You can't put him in a starter's spot, because the rotation is doing so well and because he is too fragile and doesn't have the arm strength yet. I don't necessarily trust him as a closer because he has fits of wildness and a tendency to try to overthrow, which will lose games in a closer's role.
I'd actually like to see him used as a middle relief guy that comes in and pitches for as long as he's effective. In this type of role, you could use him at any spot in the game and potentially close it. Not so much a long reliever, but more of a take-it-over-from-here type of guy. That way you get the full benefit of his abilities, but you don't have to count on him for anything in particular. It wouldn't really mess up anyone else's role, and hopefully it would keep the pen fresh. Also, more than anything, he could just be available when he says so, rather than sending him out when he doesn't feel perfect (which is presumably when he more prone to getting injured???)
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