Halsey not hurt after all, just sore
by andyinfremont on May 8, 2007 3:33 PM PDT
43 comments
Given Brad Halsey's biting comments recently about the A's organization (see part of the quote and the primary AN diary here), some people may have expected him to be diagnosed with a serious arm problem. As it turns out, not so much:
Left-hander Brad Halsey, who has been out of action at Triple-A Sacramento with shoulder soreness, has been given a clean bill of health by both Dr. Lewis Yocum and Dr. James Andrews (whom he saw Monday). Neither diagnosed any structural damage, and Halsey is expected to begin a rehab program.
Not that we're likely to see Halsey apologize for wrongly accusing the A's of mishandling his "condition", but hopefully this will serve as a wakeup call for him to think before venting to reporters.
It might also serve as a wakeup call to some AN posters looking for any excuse to bag on the A's medical staff.
Regardless, this is good news for the A's and good news for Halsey. It'll be interesting to see who goes back to AA once Halsey's done with his rehab (or if one of the pending PTBNL trades makes a move unnecessary).
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Wuss
The one player we could afford to be hurt, and he's not? What is up with that?
Halsey is such a Wuss. :)
by Colorado Fan on May 8, 2007 3:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Remember this
Prior got a "clean bill of health" from the same doctors, and Cubs fans spent two years calling him a worthless pussy for faking an injury. When he finally had surgery, it was revealed that his shoulder had been largely destroyed for two years. I don't know whether Halsey is actually hurt or not, but a "clean bill of health" is not always what it seems with arm injuries. As brilliant as those doctors are, they can't really be sure unless they actually operate.
by BlameChannel53 on May 8, 2007 3:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The major difference with Prior
...is that he had a history of significant injury problems regardless of what the fans thought. Prior's been on the DL at least once every year he's been in pro ball (except possibly for 2002).
In contrast, Halsey's had no history of significant injuries.
by andyinfremont on May 8, 2007 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And his shoulder
wasn't "largely destroyed." No tears, no significant damage. He does have genetic looseness in the joint, and cleaned up some scar tissue common in pitchers. They did minor clean up of the shoulder. Many people are still calling Prior a "wuss" and many in the Cubs organization don't believe he has the mental toughness needed to pitch in the majors.
by IndianaAsfan on May 9, 2007 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do hope halsey is OK ..
.. We may need him down the stretch ..
by Randy Bell on May 8, 2007 4:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Uh huh. He's 'just sore'.
Where have I heard that one before?
Esteban? Rich? Nick? Eric? Milton? Anyone?
The A's medical staff can shampoo my crotch.
by Ozzz on May 8, 2007 4:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow Oz,
You are a braver man then I to let the A's medical staff take a go at that sort of shampooing.
No telling what sort of injury could result from that.
by AsFanInLA on May 8, 2007 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they're injuring my pecker...
by Ozzz on May 9, 2007 1:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm impressed
You're a real team player!
by oblique on May 9, 2007 7:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stick that m'f'ng thing out there!
by Englishmajor on May 9, 2007 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It has indeed been known to MF.
by Ozzz on May 9, 2007 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Milton Friedman?
by monkeyball on May 9, 2007 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Miguel Ferrer.
by Ozzz on May 9, 2007 11:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yocum and Andrews don't work for the A's
...and the A's medical staff says you'll need a "special" shampoo to deal with that condition.
by andyinfremont on May 8, 2007 4:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but...
what does Dwight Yocum have to say, hmmmmmm?
Band-aid .50
Crutches $50
Lift flight to hospital $3000
Being treated by the A's medical staff...worthless
by since72 on May 8, 2007 6:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think you may have missed the point.
I think Halsey is in the proces of engineering a trade out of Oakland. He wants to play in the show. He knows he's good enough but he is path is blocked by a stable of quality pitchers within the Oakland system. By going public he let in be known that he wants out of Oakland, and considering the dearth of pitching available on the market, I'm positive 29 sets of ears perked right up. Now not only do the other 29 GM's know that he wants out, the now know that he has been examined by two of the best doctors in MLB. Brad may not be amoung our best pitchers, but I he certainly might be one of the most clever.
by alox on May 8, 2007 9:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, it looks like he'll get his chance.
We'll need a 5th starter over the next few weeks. Barring a promotion of Colby Lewis (which would be a surprise) or Dan Meyer (which would be an even bigger surprise) or Rich Harden coming back early (now you're just kidding yourself), he'll have 2-3 starts to make his case to other teams.
by Nate on May 8, 2007 11:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Little chance, not that clever
I didn't overlook the near-certainty that Halsey was trying to force a trade, but I doubt he'll be traded anytime soon given the delicate nature of the A's rotation (specifically Harden and Loaiza). The A's want the SP depth right now, he has zero leverage to force a trade, and unless they get an offer that gives them very good value in return he's going nowhere.
On the other hand, he's unlikely to be starting for the A's anytime soon. He still has to rehab from his tendinitis/soreness, get some starts under his belt and re-build his arm strength (he's missed at least 3 starts already), and beat out Dallas Braden who's looked great in AAA and decent in Oakland (one very good start, and one poor start).
Add to that the fact that Loaiza is about ready to start his own rehab assignment, with the prospect that he could be set to pitch in Oakland in early-to-mid June.
[Colby Lewis is an unlikely call-up because he's not on the 40-man roster, and Dan Meyer needs to do a lot more to prove he's healthy and major league ready.]
by andyinfremont on May 9, 2007 12:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's exactly what I'm attempting to say.
He has no leverage to force a trade through traditional chanels. So he goes public in his bid to make it to another team.
I don't think he will force Billy's hand either. BB holds all the cards and is much to schrewd to allow emotion to influence a trade decision. I can't blame Brad for trying though. He also has placed himself in a position where the organization may feel that they should make "ammends" and give him a call up at the first opportunity. Who knows?
by alox on May 9, 2007 8:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right,
because there is no better way to stire up market interest than hollering in the National Media "I am in injured pitcher with already iffy velocity...SIGN ME!"
by mikedaviswhereareyou on May 9, 2007 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right.
Did you miss the part where two of the foremost doctors in baseball stated that he is in fact....not injured?
by alox on May 9, 2007 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
At the time he sounded off
He was still demanding an MRI, but had not yet received any medical diagnosis. Are you implying that he had been demanding an MRI since spring training as part of a plan of later complaining that he did not get one to get his name on the market and his chance with another club? What if the A's had just given him an MRI at the time and it came back fine, he could not have complained to the papers then.
I believe the kid thought he was hurt. I dont give him the credit you do about being clever enough to orchestrate his own escape intentionally, though he may get that result anyway.
by mikedaviswhereareyou on May 9, 2007 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think we will ever know
You could be right and I am giving him to much credit though. It was just a thought...
by alox on May 10, 2007 1:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Halsey's trade value...
is greatest in the minor leagues, where he can flash a K per inning and keep his ERA under three. Some team will bite on that, eventually, especially if Beane continues to keep Halsey's cost at $400K for his future team by keeping him in the minor leagues.
Although neither one is as quite as good of a pitcher, it's the same reason that Beane keeps Komine and Windsor in the minors.
What Beane knows is that none of those three guys are good enough to start in the AL; certainly not for his team, a team that intends to contend.
Therefore, those three guys - and Halsey especially, since he's the best of the three - have greater value to someone other than Beane and the A's. That's why Beane keeps them down there. If someone bowls Beane over with an offer - and most likely, it'll be an NL team, because that's where Halsey could be an effective 4ish/5 starter - of course he will take it.
Halsey looks a hell of lot more attractive with a sub-3 era and a K per inning in AAA than he would if he got called up and exposed in a start or two against a good AL offense.
This is another subtle market inefficiency Beane exploits - the better his AAA team is, the better his guys' numbers look in potential trades. That's part of why Sacto has a lights out bullpen (keeps the starters' ERA down, and makes them look more attractive). A good offense/defense with few holes like the Rivercats have also ensures that the pitchers are more likely to get wins.
In short, every aspect of Sacramento is designed to inflate guys' value and make them look good in trades.
by notsellingjeans on May 9, 2007 8:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You paint a picture of Bean
as a ruthless barricuda who is more than willing to exploit the hopes and dreams of another human being for his own benefit. The humanist in me is compelled to object. The realist in me is compelled to agree.
by alox on May 9, 2007 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can either one of you
(humanist or realist) email me at the address in my profile?
by FreeSeatUpgrade on May 9, 2007 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure thing,
by alox on May 10, 2007 12:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So why has no GM been conned
into trading for Windson or Komine yet?
You're assuming other GMs are incompetent and cannot properly evaluate minor league stats.
by rfloh on May 9, 2007 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not assuming they're incompetent
Just assuming they don't know as much about what's going on in Sacramento as Beane does. A reasonable assumption.
As for their incompetence...hey, it only takes one GM to bite on a trade. There's a few less-than-sterling ones out there.
And certainly there is a dearth of pitching, which will only get worse as attrition continues later in the year. That's when his leverage will increase, and when a deal is more likely to happen.
But again, if he doesn't get blown away with an offer, it doesn't NEED to happen.
Halsey still has value as an emergency starter; he just has less value when he's in the big leagues than he does down in AAA, for the reasons described above.
by notsellingjeans on May 9, 2007 9:29 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
They might not be as familar with Sacto
as Beane, but any reasonably competent front office should be able to properly judge and evaluate minor league stats.
Halsey definitely has value as trade bait, but many teams have guys like Windsor and Komine doing time in the minors.
by rfloh on May 9, 2007 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
they don't just evaluate stats. They actually go and watch guys play. You are greatly inflating Beane's knowledge compared to other GM's.
Another thing - Beane doesn't trade minor leaguers that often. He mostly trades guys off the major league roster so I'm not sure what Beane gains by "inflating" minor league stats.
by IndianaAsfan on May 9, 2007 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yep
Agree on all three of your points:
- The A's use scouting much more than most people realize despite their reputation, and other teams use scouting even more than the A's. Scouts are smart enough to know that Windsor, Komine, and Halsey don't have out pitches, whether they win 5 or 15 games at Sacramento.
- I am a huge Beane fan, but this mythical idea that Billy has some hidden bank of knowledge that other GMs don't have is growing tiresome. Billy is a great GM because he is relentless, ruthless, and is not afraid to try something that is different than conventional wisdom.
- Billy rarely trades minor leaguers anymore (he used to quite a bit in deadline trades), and there is a very good reason for it. Billy drafted players for a few years that scouts don't like, the types of players that other teams don't place a great deal of value on. Guys like Windsor, Komine, Dan Johnson, etc. are guys that other teams don't really want to trade for, because their scouts look at them and say "meh." Those kinds of players have to succeed in the majors before any team really wants them. It is one of the downsides to the A's draft philosophy, even if you are smarter than every one else, you lose trade value because the other teams don't want your prospects.
by BlameChannel53 on May 9, 2007 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not convinced
on point number 3.
Yes, our exporting of minor leaguers has declined a bit from the boom time when our farm system was so overflowing with talent we couldn't find room for them all, but that time was an aberration. Now we're back to normal, and we still trade plenty of them.
This year we've already traded three -- Charles Thomas, Marcus McBeth, and John Baker. Plus the second PTBNL for Denorfia, the PTBNL for Langerhans, and the possible PTBNL for Cust are all likely to be minor leaguers. (Also, there was supposed to be a PTBNL going in each direction along with the Saarloos trade. Did we ever hear who that was?)
Last season we traded Dustin Majewski (who was the PTBNL for Gaudin) and Ramon Alvarado (for Tadano). Juan Cruz in spite of some time in the bigs was essentially a minor-leaguer when we traded him for Halsey. And Ethier, of course.
by iglew on May 9, 2007 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except that
both the Cust and Langerhans deals are expected to be settled for cash (along with completing the Denorfia trade), so there won't be more players leaving. Juan Cruz was a well-known major league pitcher, not some guy Beane was able to "boost" the AAA stats of so he could trade him for greater value. And I would argue that Ethier for Bradley gave the Dodgers greater value. So, again, I'm questioning the so-called advantage Beane gets from allegedly building up the AAA stats of players.
by IndianaAsfan on May 9, 2007 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Notice what we've got in those trades
It's not that we can't make trades, it's that we don't get players that other teams value in return. Gaudin was a giveaway because Toronto would have had to release him to clear 40 man roster space, Tadano was a nobody, Cruz was not a minor leaguer so you can't count him (he had significant MLB experience), Bradley was very talented, but L.A. traded him for clubhouse peace rather than baseball reasons, and our acquisitions this year are of the "we like them more than other teams do" variety.
I stand by my original point, one of the reasons Beane is making less prospect trades is that teams don't really want our prospects. I think there are a number of guys Billy would be willing to trade in our minor league system, but other teams scouts don't want them.
by BlameChannel53 on May 9, 2007 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it's more that
our minor league players aren't very good than that they're good but other teams don't want them.
by mikeA on May 9, 2007 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My original point...
Was just that Brad Halsey has more trade value with 2 years of service time, and very good AAA stats, than he does with 3 years of service time, getting an arby increase to 1 million or more, and having an AL-inflated Major League era of, say, 5.00.
And I don't think it's insignificant that the A's trot out a future major leaguer or a fringe major leaguer at nearly, if not every, spot on the diamond for the Rivercats. That makes a pitcher feel more confident on the mound and probably helps them perform a little bit better.
I'm not saying Halsey's the holy grail, or that other teams are knocking down our door. But I do know that he has more value to an N.L. team (where he can be a starter), than he does to us (where he can't be a starter, because we already have five better starters, and we play in a better offensive league). We did the same thing with Saarloos. He didn't have value to us, and since he did have some value to someone else, we acquired something that could potentially be valuable, someday, at the price of 400K instead of Saarloos' 1.2 million.
PARTIALLY FOR THOSE REASONS, Halsey is not in the big leagues, and he will continue to not be in the big leagues as long as possible.
I don't think that Beane is perfect or dancing circles around other GMs. I do think it would be naive to think that the issues described above don't play into Beane's decision-making.
by notsellingjeans on May 9, 2007 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I happen to
it's naive to think it DOES play into Beane's decisions. GM's just don't think in those terms. And a future Major Leaguer at every position? Nobody has a AAA that good, and if you think every starting Rivercat will be a major leaguer, then the A's are in trouble.
Halsey's value to a NL team is unaffected by pitching in the AL. You reference the Saarloos trade as getting something of value, yet he had the "AL-inflated" ERA that you're concerned Halsey might get. Once again, major league teams make decisions after watching players play, not based upon stats. That's one reason why statheads and scouts don't get along.
by IndianaAsfan on May 9, 2007 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To those suggesting Halsey
by Nico on May 9, 2007 9:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No, it's not that simple
Lenny DiNardo doesn't have any options left. He has to be on our major league team, or we lose him.
The best/most talented 25 players in an organization are not always on the major league roster.
by notsellingjeans on May 9, 2007 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he's opting...
for the old, "I'm the only pitcher you have left with his arm still attatched" option?
by alox on May 10, 2007 4:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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