Chavez, just keep your mouth shut
So Chavez sinks to new lows offensively last night, and now I hear "his forearms are hurting."
I'm sorry, but that's crap. Plain and simple. Maybe not the claim that he's hurting -- that may very well be true -- but the timing of it leaves much to be desired.
If Chavez is injured, than he should have "mentioned" this some time ago. Don't wait until you manage to even embarass yourself (finally) at the plate before you "reveal an injury." I just find the timing of the announcement awfully convenient. I'd have a lot more respect for him if he simply said the truth, something like,
"You know what? I'm not getting the job done ... and I haven't gotten the job done for quite some time now. I've gotten better defensively, but I've digressed ... BIG TIME ...offensively. Now I'm a liability and I need to get better."
That's the kind of "honesty" I need to hear ... but please, don't strand seven baserunners (in one game !? That is HARD to do) and "oh, by the way, my forearms are hurting." That is such garbage.
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128 comments
Comments
Im tired of chavez
I would be so happy too see him not on the A's. He might be injured but its not like he was performing before that.
by bballfanr33 on May 22, 2007 6:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
before what?
As far as we know,he's been injured since before last year. In fact, we could say it goes back to last year, when he had the best April of his life (hit 9 homers), then fell down as his hamstring and arms/elbows began to deteriorate.
by ohad on May 22, 2007 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude
lets be real, why would he play for over a year injured. Just does not make sense. Hes never been able to hit in the clutch , that is the main reason I dont like him and would be happy if he was not on the A's.
by bballfanr33 on May 22, 2007 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
injuries
Why would he play over a year injured? Cuz he's still better than the alternative. And that's not a good question because the fact is he has, starting with the torn labrum in his shoulder. Then there is the partially torn hamstring or whatever it is, which as far as I know has not just disappeared. And the forearms have been a reoccuring theme for the last year as well.
I don't see why you would be happy to have CHavez on another team. Maybe it' sbecause you expect too much out of him, so you hate him because he's not living up to those expectations. If you lowered them a little bit, and if he didn't have to hit 4th in our lineup, then you could accept him as he is.
by ohad on May 22, 2007 8:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no
you know how much money the A's paid for him. Tejada would have been the better choice.
by bballfanr33 on May 22, 2007 8:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you keep changing your stance
Now they should have kept Tejada. Aside from the fact that i don't think there is a point to rehashing such old arguments, there is another point to be made. You don't invest big bucks in somebody for hitting in RISP. The A's paid money to have him be the best third baseman in the game on defense, hit 30 HR's and 100 Rbi's every year, and have his peripheral stats be somewhere around 270/370/500. Clearly he is struggling on the third part, and i think that is in large part due to his injuries, and also in part to his approach at the plate.
Again i don't see how you wouldn't want him on your team. I'd take him over most 3B.
by ohad on May 22, 2007 8:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fielding
fielding wise he is probabbly the best in the majors. I guess I take it back that I would be happy too see him leave but I still think he should be hitting better in the clutch for sure.
by bballfanr33 on May 22, 2007 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed on that
His approach in the box sometimes brings a tear to my eye (and not from joy). It's sad to think that just a few years ago he looked like the man we'd been waiting for, for the whole year.
by ohad on May 22, 2007 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd also like to point out
Chavez's clutchness apparently correlates with his overall production.
- Overall OPS-898 RISP OPS: 928
- Overall OPS- 794 RISP OPS: 727
It gets worse, as his RISP OPS remains much below his overall OPS. But the point is, the year that he was actually really good, he was really good with his overall approach along with his runners on approach.
Basically what i've just said points out that when Chavez is going good, then his approach remained consistent in all situations, while when he is not going, good, it appears that he DOES press even harder with RISP. I bet that if we looked at his situational stats from last April and September (when his OPS' were 1.079 and .920 respectively), we'd find that his RISP OPS' were somewhere around there as well.
by ohad on May 22, 2007 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm no Chavez fan, but...
...Kotsay has played for about five years injured.
That said, if we can find someone to give us prospects for Chavy, I'd take it. Dude's so non-en fuego, it's absurd.
by Ozzz on May 22, 2007 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you ever think you would l-o-n-g for Kots?
by ohtobe21likehuston on May 23, 2007 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I called it in a pre-season post
by Nico on May 23, 2007 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh sure. I bet you thought Gaudin would be a good
by ohtobe21likehuston on May 25, 2007 7:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In my opinion
YOu are just looking to pile blame on him for the offensive woes, since he is supposed to be the main guy. Can you provide a link though?
by ohad on May 22, 2007 6:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No,
I don't want to "pile" anything on him -- he is not the only reason the team is struggling, and I don't want to imply that he is ... I'm simply saying that his comments/timing are horrible. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR BEING BAD. Period. No excuses.
by Vacafan on May 22, 2007 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
uh ...
... by saying that he was "bad," wouldn't Chavez then be guilty of his other supposed cardinal sin, that of not being a cocky Swisheresque S.O.B.?
by monkeyball on May 22, 2007 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
All that matters are results
Why do you think Giants fans root for Bonds?
Chavez could be the biggest jerk but if he had say 18 HR right now, would we care? Of course not.
by pickinmachine on May 22, 2007 7:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely disagree.
To me, though, the larger point is that our supposed best player in the team hasn't hit dick for two seasons now.
At some point, wouldn't it be best to stick him on the DL and tell him to come back when he's not an amputee?
by Ozzz on May 22, 2007 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not going to get in the middle of all this
But that was the best freakin' suggestion I've heard in this matter. Can we pretty please stop asking hurt players to keep trudging out onto the field? Playing won't make them better. Rest might. Surgery might. Grinding out game after game won't.
by grover on May 22, 2007 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then what did he do...
...during the off-season? Wouldn't that have been sufficient time to rest and heal? If he couldn't heal from November thru February, why would we think he can for a few weeks now?
by UncleLeo on May 22, 2007 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know
Chavez actually had a pretty decent April (by his traditional standards... outstanding!) after having a full offseason of rest.
He just got his 1st day off the other day.
So maybe more frequent rest would help. Maybe it wouldn't. Maybe he needs a 15 day trip to the DL. Maybe he needs surgery.
My point remains... could we please not try and kill guys by playing them when they're hurting.
by grover on May 22, 2007 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To some extent...
...with injuries as extensive as they are now, it's going to put more physical strain on everybody else. Both literally and figuratively. From that standpoint, I'd say it's somewhat understandable.
Personally, I think Chavez' problems go deeper and further back. I think he lacks the necessary mental toughness, and I think it's been confirmed with some statements he's made every now and then. I think he's a perfect #6 or #7 hitter to compliment a good lineup, but I think he's not equipped to be "the man", and even in a weak lineup should never hit higher than 6th.
As "good" as his numbers look, he seems the master at getting the HR and/or RBI when the game is either completely lost or safely won, but if it's close or critical at all he's NOT the one I want to see coming to bat.
Even if Chavez is legitimately hurt, that still does not explain his constantly chasing pitches out of the strike zone.
by UncleLeo on May 22, 2007 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds more like a double standard
Duke says he's hurting and its affecting his performance and he doesn't get ragged on, but Chavez comes out and says he's hurting and instead of believing him you think his struggles have a deeper meaning.
Well bullshit.
Kotsay, Bradley, Harden, Street, Duke and Piazza are all on the DL or have spent a considerable amount of time on the DL. All are considered "critical" to the success of the 2007 Oakland A's. Eric Chavez is the franchise cornerstone. There are only two reasons to explain why the A's keep running their franchise cornerstone out onto the field while he's hurting:
- The Oakland A's HATE Eric Chavez... which would be an unusual attitude to have towards such an important player.
- Chavez looks around the clubhouse and tells Geren that he can play if the A's needs him.
You want to say that Chavez struggles with RISP or when facing LH pitching? Fine.
You want to stand there and say that Chavez lacks mental toughness? I question your ability to recognize mental toughness.
by grover on May 23, 2007 6:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
amen, brother
by monkeyball on May 23, 2007 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow!
You couldn't have made more baseless assumptions if you tried. It's clear that you're a blind Chavez apologist, and that's fine, but I've been down on Chavez' approach for alot longer than his forearms hae been hurting, so your assumptions about some double-standard are simply flat-out wrong.
by UncleLeo on May 23, 2007 6:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, you beat me in the battle for the most
baseless assumption.
A Chavez apologist? Me?
At the end of the day your claim that Chavez lacks, and I quote, "the necessary mental toughness" (I'm hoping I don't have to provide a link to your own quote, let me know if I'm wrong on that) will have been disproven by the universal support Chavez gets from his teammates as a team leader and the fact that he goes out and plays whenever he can.
You've got a much better arguement if you stick to complaining about his numbers.
by grover on May 23, 2007 7:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
EXACTLY!!!
I'm beginning to realize that that is the biggest problem with our Oakland A's. NOT that they are a walking MASH unit but that they are consistently being asked to play hurt. I was watching the pre-game interview tonight with Ray Fosse and Curt Young. They were talking about putting the Duke on the DL. When pressed about it Young kind of grimaced, then shrugged, the said "I guess if you can't make all your pitches the way you're used to making them then you might feel that you're hurting (pause)....the team. Duke's hip is preventing him from performing at the level he'd like". Something about that statement sat very badly with me. Young seemed to be indicating that the A's would be happy trudging an unhealthy Duke out there because even injured, he's better than his replacement. Sound familiar. I really wonder if Chavez is being trudged out there for exactly the same reason--and that he really should be shut down for a while?
And while I'm thinking about it--let's advise Octavio Dotel not to have surgery. Let's continue to pitch Mulder with a stress fracture, let's continue to try to run Crosby out there with a fracture in his back. Let's always downplay the extent of any injury to the press and the fans. Damn.
by Steve in Napa on May 22, 2007 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
on the other hand ...
... the team did advise/has been advising Chavez to have surgery for years, and he keeps refusing.
What has it come to that I'm now the one defending the A's medical/training staff?
by monkeyball on May 23, 2007 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Always the contrarian.
Honestly, just because a player wants to play, doesn't absolve the A's from their responsibility to say "you can't."
I once played half a season of semi-pro soccer on a chipped ankle, refusing to take myself out because there was another guy, younger than me, on the bench ready to play my position.
After half a season with a continually swollen ankle, eventually I took myself out of the lineup. It never got back to 100% and I haven't played since.
It's my fault for being an idiot. But it's also the team's fault for letting me be one.
by Ozzz on May 23, 2007 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
am not!
In the sense of what the A's ought to do, I agree entirely.
But when, in Beane's entire tenure, has he failed to wring every last drop of subpar performance from an injured/hurting player?
by monkeyball on May 23, 2007 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What bothers me about Chavez is this:
he's been playing hurt the last 2 seasons. I don't mind him playing because his 'forearm injury' obviously isn't hurting him on defense, but what puzzles me is how Macha & now Geren refuses to bat him lower in the order?
by sf drift king on May 22, 2007 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chavez does not write the line-up card
He does not set the batting order.
So what bothers you about Chavez really has nothing to do with anything Eric Chavez can control.
by grover on May 23, 2007 6:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For once I agree with Hollywood Oz...
You hit the nail on the head right there man. Point well taken and much appreciated.
by SwisherSweet33 on May 23, 2007 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't realize
that Swisher was an "SOB" -- didn't know he was "cocky" either ... confident yes, cocky? Well, I guess so ... anyways, what's your "supposed" point?
by Vacafan on May 22, 2007 7:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who's ripping on Swisher?
Whoever it is is a complete moron. Me and a bunch of buddies had beers with him last Spring Training for about 2 hours. He's probably the coolest guy on the Planet!
by SwisherSweet33 on May 23, 2007 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough
You said that you would rather have him say something like this:
"You know what? I'm not getting the job done ... and I haven't gotten the job done for quite some time now. I've gotten better defensively, but I've digressed ... BIG TIME ...offensively. Now I'm a liability and I need to get better."
Didn't he do that last year when he admitted he should be batting eighth?
My next point is that it is unfair to just say that he is outright blaming his suckiness on his injuries. Please. Since there is no link i don't even have a context to judge this by, but i do know that A's announcers frequently talk about his ailments and how he refuses to blame his struggles on them. So give me a break, i think him saying this is coincidentally bad timing, and i'm not even sure he didn't say that in response to a question from the media.
And again, you make him out to be this pussy the way he "blames his struggles on his injuries". And also there is the part about players not being allowed to disclose injuries under some stupid agreement.
Finally, i agree about his failure to adjust. I did not pay attention close enough to be able to identify any particular reason that he has digressed so much from last April to now, but i do know this: He added 15 pounds of muscle last offseason and it showed in April, and since then it seems he has lost bat speed. He swings and misses at fastballs frequently it seems, and he also waves out outside fastballs. He should be taking those the other way, and i can't help but think his forearms/weight loss have something to do with that. Once he starts taking balls opposite field (because we all know he can) he'll be a different hitter.
by ohad on May 22, 2007 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ya know...
..last year it took him hitting about .215 for most of the year before he decided to hit 8th.
Maybe, rather than simply hitting somewhere where he gets less pressure to perform, he should have instead gone to the DL.
Then maybe Antonio Perez might have had more than 8 at bats all year, and might be a functioning player on the roster about now.
by Ozzz on May 22, 2007 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What does this even mean, take responsibility?
Why would it be better for Chavez to spout some cliche like "I'm not getting the job done"? If he did, I'm sure you'd want an explanation as to WHY he isn't getting the job done, and perhaps you'd even criticize him for not figuring out the problem. But he's given a plausible explanation for his offensive struggles. And from his comments during the off-season, it sounded like he was very optimistic about the effectiveness of the treatment he was receiving. Apparently, it hasn't worked out so well over the long run, but I can certainly understand why he would want to try that first, before undergoing surgery.
by Ray of Lite on May 23, 2007 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In his defense
For a while now he's been taking responsibility for his failures at the plate. For the longest time it's been the broadcasters bring up his injury problems in his defense while anytime he's been asked, he's refused to use that as an excuse.
Point of fact though. For the last 2 years he's been playing hurt. Last year he asked to be moved down in the lineup because he was hurting the team offensively and Macha refused to move him. And yes, he was hurt all season. He wasn't DLed because they didn't trust Perez defensively nor offensively and they had no other decent alternatives. Odds are, the same thing is going on this year too and considering all the DLed players, he's doing his best to avoid that.
He's given you everything you want except the one thing you're expecting of him which is to be an offensive juggernaut, which he'll never be and I doubt very many people ever really expected him to be.
by DMOAS on May 22, 2007 6:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
agree mostly
but disagree about the last part, a lot of people did and still do expect him to "put it all together", but we're definitely starting to realize that the odds are against him on that one.
by Helloooo 1st on May 22, 2007 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What?
"He's given you everything you want except the one thing you've expected of him ..." WHAT?! Please define "offensive juggernaut." No, I expect him to routinely drive in runners from third with less than two outs, I expect him to have solid at-bats regardless of the outcome, I expect him to get better offensively, not get worse, I expect him to hit at least .270, which a person with his athletic ability ought to do routinely ... I could go on and on.
And who are the "very many people" who didn't expect above-average offensive numbers from Chavez?! You're kidding me, right?
by Vacafan on May 22, 2007 7:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When Chavez is healthy
he can be a 30 hr 270 BA 100 RBI guy. There was an expectation when he signed his deal that he'd produce more and from what I've read of people's comments about him, those numbers aren't good enough. Partly this has to do with the "We should have kept Tejada Syndrome" which you thankfully aren't rehashing. But the 30/270/100 guy is really all we can ever expect out of Chavez, which, if I'm reading what you're saying, you'd accept.
But why hasn't he reached that this year and last? Simple. Injuries. Is it his an excuse? No. It's simply the truth. It's hard to catch up to a fastball when you're forearms hurt like hell when swinging a bat. When you're doing things you don't normally do... when you're, yes I'll admit it, a head case at times and you're not producing the way you know you should regardless of the reasons, he presses and gives really bad at bats.
But now we're rehashing the "clutch" hitter issue. Against the Indians he had a homerun and a huge hit before Bradley. Does he do it everytime, no. But no hitter does. But people like to focus more on his failures and tend to ignore his successes.
There's nothing wrong with expecting above average offensive numbers from him. I expect the same from Kendall and am pissed he makes as much as he does and sucks as much as he does. But if you're expecting a 300 BA 40+ HR, clean up hitter who can carry a team offensively, that simply never was Chavez nor will it ever be. Could he do it at some point in his career, sure. Will he, probably not.
by DMOAS on May 22, 2007 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he'll never be that anchor-dominant guy...
..then we need to get what we can for him, before he becomes someone that nobody will trade for.
Sorry to the believers, but Chavy is a guy who can't hit well unless he has two more Chavy's hitting around him. We don't have that, so we need him to cajone up and do some damage.
So he's injured? DL him.
So he's underperforming for two seasons? Trade him.
by Ozzz on May 22, 2007 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree for the most part
I was having a conversation about the idea that Chavez his a good number 2 guy. Eventually Swish will be the number one. Hopefully Barton will be a 1/2 guy. But Chavez isn't the lead guy nor ever will be.
As to the hurt/DL thing. Agree 100%. We have so many guys down, one more isn't going to break us at this point. Especially when he's not contributing in a way even he believes he should.
Trading him? I'm not there... yet. I have hope that when Swish steps up and Barton reaches the majors they'll take the "pressure" Chavez puts on himself off him and he'll perform. BUT, if a good deal showed up and we could get something that would make us a better team now and in the future (perferrably netting us a comparable 3rd baseman) then I'd be for it.) Trading him for the sake of getting rid of him (i.e. "before he gets worse", I'm not.
by DMOAS on May 22, 2007 9:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A-Rod
If A-Rod leaves the Yankees, I would love for Cashman & Beane to have a long hard talk about Eric Chavez. Maybe Beane can convine Cashman that Chavez needs a change of scenery, and that the right field porch is the perfect recipe.
Chavez & Ellis for Cano & Hughes
by Colorado Fan on May 23, 2007 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And who plays third? Scutaro?
by DMOAS on May 23, 2007 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Daric Barton
Another option: Sign Joe Crede next season with the money you save by unloading Chavvy & Ellis.
by Colorado Fan on May 24, 2007 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crede might be having back surgery soon
Why can't we get someone who's still healthy instead?
That way Larry Davis can have the fun of breaking him all to himself.
by grover on May 24, 2007 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously, he needs a psychologist
He knows his swing better than anyone, but it looks fine. I think his confidence is just shot, and he's far too willing to give himself an out. People lauded him last year for being willing to bat eighth. Personally, that set off warning bells all over the place for me. He's supposed to be the Man on this team, and the Man should be the most competitive player on the team. I want him to want to bat third even if both his arms are broken.
by 31Boots on May 22, 2007 6:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
doc, you need an ophthalmologist
by monkeyball on May 22, 2007 7:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I need an eroticist.
by Ozzz on May 22, 2007 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
but sadly, you have to settle for ...
... an erotic wrist.
by monkeyball on May 23, 2007 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Settle?
I was the best I ever had!
by kaweahkaweah on May 23, 2007 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
An obvious case of small sample size
by grover on May 23, 2007 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No it isn't
I've used both wrists: both are great!
by kaweahkaweah on May 23, 2007 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well with that logic
Kendall should be batting clean up because he fits that description and is the grittiest and most competitive on the team. He makes more money than Chavez too and it could be argued that when Beane traded for him he thought he would be "The man". But I haven't ever found the position of "the man" on the roster and I don't think he is the official or unofficial captain of the team. I think it is a huge leap of logic to blame Chavez for not firing up the team or making them perform.
As for the whole premise of this diary I think it is way of base to be upset and slag off someone for being hurt and being a team player and toughing it out and trying to contribute. It is pure rubbish to think he was hiding anything from the team. It has been the A’s policy to keep the specifics of a player’s health somewhat private for so many valid reasons that it overrides the fans nosey need to know everything about another person’s private business.
by Athletics Fan In London on May 22, 2007 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
re
I'm not talking anybody but he himself, that's not in anything I wrote. I don't think he has any particular influence on any other player, good or bad. You're right that there isn't a position of "the man", but it's intellectually dishonest, imo, to claim that any player other than Chavez is designed to be the centerpiece of this team. It's why out of all the players Beane could have kept, he kept Chavez. He's the most talented player on the team, at the bat and on the field. And we're now in the third consecutive year of Chavez not performing commensurate with his talent. So, what's the problem here?
Maybe it is all just a physical thing. But it doesn't look like that when he's batting, imo. And it doesn't sound like it when he makes his excuses to the media. I could be entirely wrong, but I really do believe his confidence is shot. And, please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying that makes him a bad guy. I'm saying that his lack of competitiveness is one of the reasons I think his confidence is shot.
I don't know if therapy would actually help him. That wasn't entirely a serious suggestion. Finely tuned athlete with a snakepit for a mind, probably needs to come out of it more than go deeper in it. I do think, at the very least, as the author of the diary said, he should shut up about his issues in the media. Building more outs and excuses for him doesn't help the situation.
by 31Boots on May 22, 2007 8:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if anyone should take one for the team
and sit himself Kendall should. If Billy or
Bob won't make the descision, Kendall should step up and do it himself. Chavez should be batting 7th but needs the protection of a 4 hitter so he will do even worse than when he was batting third.
by Hawaii FO on May 23, 2007 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with your frustration
but I'm sure he knows he isnt getting it done. In fact I bet he is more frustrated than anyone here. Seriously though, what good does it do for him to beat himself up to the media? I dont think that would help motivate the situation at all. Maybe I could see this helping Swisher out.
We just have to accept that he is never going to be what we all want him to be. He is a fine 3B and still can be productive throughout the rest of his contract.
He needs to be moved to a lesser role offensively. I think he should bat 6th in the "ideal" A's lineup in which they have 3 more potent bats then his.
by pickinmachine on May 22, 2007 7:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't question his "heart"
My comments about what "he really should have said" were in response to what I consider excuse-making on his part. I don't think it would do him or anyone else much good to "beat himself up in the media."
I also think people are getting too caught up in numbers here, as well. Look, I'm not demanding 40 HR's and 120 RBI every season -- I've long ago realized that Chavez is never going to be that player, and it's silly to expect that. (Although I do believe he has the physical ability to accomplish it.)
The problem I have with Chavez is his absolutely horrible approach to his at-bats. I mean, he is a far worse hitter now than he was even 4 years ago. How long has he played in the league now? Nine years? He ought to be better fundamentally ... he still routinely fishes for pitches well out of the strike zone ... I mean c'mon you guys -- ALL of you know he's one of the last guys you want up with a man on third with less than two outs ...you can defend him all you want, but you know it's true. He has completely digressed as a hitter these last several years, and it's a shame, because he's better than that.
I've never said he "sucks." He doesn't suck. He's got unbelievable talent. But he doesn't make adjustments, and worst of all, he doesn't think he can get the job done at the plate. My opinion, but I really think he's mentally over-matched most of the time.
by Vacafan on May 22, 2007 7:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said...
Putting it this way changes your whole diary.
I think this sums it up for me as well. He is one of the last guys I want up there in RBI situations, especially with 2 outs.
Your right, he has been in the league 9 years and he doesnt ever look comfortable at the plate. Its almost like he admits defeat when he goes down 0-2. Its a constant guessing game with him also. Like he makes up his mind in the on deck circle, "Im swinging at the first pitch now so I dont get into a hole". Or "I need to take a couple pitches early this AB that are most likely off the plate". Obviously these statements are a little silly, but we have all seen so much of him over the years that we have come to know that he can be quite lost up there mentally.
by pickinmachine on May 22, 2007 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with Pickinmachine
in that this is a much better argument to make. My only question is whether he really has been "making excuses" in the media. From everything I've heard he's accepted responsbility for his struggles and doesn't blame his injuries. My only issue with the fact that he doesn't get good at bats is that, without using it as an excuse, it's hard to swing the bat affectively when you're arms are hurting. If you want to argue that he should take himself out of the lineup and maybe go to the DL if it's affected him this much, I'd back that idea. Slamming him for not living up to the most basic expectation b/c of his injuries I can't .
by DMOAS on May 22, 2007 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't quite get the premise
There's reason to be frustrated with Chavez, because except when he's really hot (i.e., second halves his early seasons) he's maddeningly inconsistent in his ability to step up and in his approach against LHP.
But what he was, his first several seasons, was a healthy guy who would be inconsistent but would put up 30/100 stats with a gold glove. Right now he's a guy whose injuries have reduced him to a guy who is inconsistent and will put up 20/80 stats with a gold glove. And if he doesn't play, he'll become a guy who hits .240 with 10 HR and no gold glove, and wears "Scutaro" on his back.
by Nico on May 22, 2007 8:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You don't get the premise?
You pretty much made the case:
Mediocre, inconsistent, and honest to an absolute fault. That's Eric.
by RLangford on May 22, 2007 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the premise is
I see him already having been "maddening but statistically 30/100" and now being physically unable to be more than "maddening but statistically 20/80," and answering honestly when asked if his forearms hurt--something we can all guess anyway because he can't catch up to the fastball he used to pull.
by Nico on May 22, 2007 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think it's his forearms
I think he accidentally shot mustard in his eye @ dollar dog Wednesdays. It's clear he's got double vision like DJ had last yr...
by sf drift king on May 22, 2007 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is who he is
I have zero faith that he will ever get much better than the player he's been the past two years. And that guy--defense or not--isn't very good. Certainly isn't what he's being paid.
And, of course, Chavez will never change the things he says, will never say what you're hoping for above.
The most revealing quotes this year came in a Mercury News article in which he talked about being satisfied with his career and with the player he is. Fair enough, I know. Good for him, I know.
But not very good for us.
If I were Billy Beane, I would try hard to move him to the Dodgers. Though if he's talking about his forearms again, there's no chance of moving him anywhere.
by RLangford on May 22, 2007 8:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think the kiss of death
by Nico on May 22, 2007 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought the kiss of death
was when Kendall kissed Chavez's bat before his first game in 2005.
by DMOAS on May 22, 2007 9:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did he also kiss Larry Davis?
Because, seriously, that'd explain a whole lot of shit.
by Ozzz on May 22, 2007 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Quite possibly.
And it was so good (or bad) that afterwards I imagine that Kendall went weak in the knees, thus his newfound hitting approach.
by DMOAS on May 22, 2007 9:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who cares what he says?
He was an excellent hitter for a long time, and he's been hurt for awhile and hasn't hit. Either the injuries will clear up at some point and he'll start hitting better or they won't and he'll continue to suck.
But really what the fuck does it matter what he says about it?
by mikeA on May 22, 2007 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i like this approach
At this point, i just don't give a crap anymore i just want to see the A's play. There is a point when the analysis just gets tiring, whether it's valid or not.
by ohad on May 22, 2007 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I buy that up to a point
When he speaks to his own health and performance I agree, I don't care much about the public face, just the production. When it gets into pronouncing doom on the team as a whole, though, that's where I want him to shut his f'in mouth. Because in the clubhouse perception is reality, whether it matters to us or not.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on May 22, 2007 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
- his comments before the playoffs last year were ill advised, but
- "perception becoming reality" makes a tangible difference way at the margins. They had a great year last year despite significant adversity, after all.
And if we're going to accuse him of ruining the clubhouse with those comments, why not credit him with the great run in '05 after the bus speech? (I don't think either thing is really that important, this being baseball, not football or basketball or other true "team" sports.)
by mikeA on May 23, 2007 12:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's what the fuck it matters, Mike
What he says about it has a lot to do with what's in his head. And what's in his head has something to do with how he performs.
Don't dismiss this like you might dismiss some paean to Derek Jeter's grit or something amorphous about clubhouse chemistry.
A player's attitude about his own skills matters. If he's internally comfortable with who he is as a player, it makes is less likely that he will become a better player.
Chavez just hasn't ever struck me as particularly hungry.
by RLangford on May 22, 2007 11:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's become a lot worse
That could be because a)he's injured (which he is) or b) he's not trying/happpy with being mediocre (based on comments to the media.
Option a is just much more logical. He could barely swing last year, and it happened suddenly after a great start! If he's never struck you as particularly hungry, then why did he have all that hitting success and then suddenly fall off? Becoming a better player isn't really the issue, it's returning the being the good player he was for many years.
Thinking his head is a problem anywhere near on par with the injuries just doesn't make sense.
by mikeA on May 23, 2007 12:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Take Duke as an example
Also injured, also has sucked thus far. His public comments were the opposite of Chavez's: "this is unacceptable, I have to do better, etc." That attitude got him precisely nowhere. His additional "hunger" to the extent that you can even infer that he has additional hunger doesn't make his cutter break or glue his hip back together.
Baseball is not football or basketball in that it's not really an effort sport. Pitchers and hitters are basically doing their best every time out. If Chavez wanted to improve his hitting, he could practice a lot more, except he stopped doing that because he injured.
by mikeA on May 23, 2007 12:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duke's a smart guy..
and he doesn't want to take any guff from you people, so he justs mouths the platitudes and gets on with his life...
Ideally, it would be great to give Mr. Chavez a year off to heal and then bring him back, and he'd probably go back to hitting .280 with 30 dingers ... but that's just not feasible right now. Who would play third? The club certainly can't afford to bring in a big and/or bad contract.
Nobody's as good on defense at third, with the possible exception of Joe Crede, but I don't think so...
It sucks that he's getting paid $12 million or so this year... but he's going to be getting paid whether he plays or not. The team might as well get something out of it, right? It's not as if the club can go out and get anyone comparable for an affordable price. .245 with 20 dingers and the best defense in the AL ain't cheap, you know?
by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on May 24, 2007 12:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Like Chavez
I admire him for trying to play through his injuries.
I don't understand the Chavie-bashing at all.
by kaweahkaweah on May 22, 2007 9:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Do you actually believe what you're saying here?
I don't even mean that harshly.
The bashing comes from him not being very good. Most players who aren't very good--especially highly paid ones--get bashed. This has always been, and will always be, true.
by RLangford on May 22, 2007 11:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
When the bashing
comes in the form of bizarre rants about his public commments such as this diary, featuring non sequiturs like "he needs to take responsibility for sucking" it is difficult to understand.
by mikeA on May 23, 2007 12:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Once again
I have never used the word "sucked" -- that's YOUR word, not mine. I don't think Chavez sucks. I think he has tremendous talent that he fails to tap into to.
I happen to think that injuries are not the primary reason for his decline ... sorry that offends some of you ... just my opinion. I don't know why he has gotten worse ... again, I'm not just talking numbers here -- he does things at the plate rookies do -- swinging at pitches he has no business swinging at, etc.
Sorry you find this diary "bizarre" -- I'm afraid some of you will rush to his defense in spite of the truth that he routinely underachieves at the plate, and that's fine -- you certainly have the right to do that. I don't dislike Chavez as a person -- I think he's a great guy from what I've seen, and his Christianity has absolutely nothing to do with his performance ... of all the potential "reasons" for his lack of production, that ranks right up there with possibly being abducted by aliens. Ridiculous.
I just think he's gotten worse and worse and worse, and the timing of his comments were horrible.
by Vacafan on May 23, 2007 3:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh for the love of Oakland.
You keep talking about his "comments" could you at least do us the favor of providing links or quotes to the specific comments that are irking you? This whole conversation about what he said here and there is absolute bull if he never actually said any of the things you're claiming he said. I'm not trying critizie you for your opinion because maybe he really did say something stupid like you're claiming. BUT at no point in time have you offered us anything but suggestions that he may or may not have said something to someone at some point and that's far from a concrete thing to make your stance on.
by DMOAS on May 23, 2007 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's playing through an injury
I had tendinitis.
Know what?
It fucking HURTS. I couldn't even move my shoulder.
So what is preferable?
That he sits it out while the likes of Antonio Perez gets playing time?
You guys would bitch about that too!
by kaweahkaweah on May 23, 2007 6:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not only have I had tendenitis
I've seen it improve over more than a year's time, but not go away only to come back in again in spurts. The doctors I've seen have not wanted to do anything about it. I can't imagine trying to be as fully active as he's been and be able to perform at the leave he's expected to. If I were him and put up the numbers he has while experiencing anything like I have, I, too, would be fairly content with those numbers.
by DMOAS on May 23, 2007 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh, I dunno
I might bee 2 stooopid to no wut I rite.
Can you smart fellers tell mee wut I mean?
You did mean it harshly.
by kaweahkaweah on May 23, 2007 7:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreeed
lets go A's!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by bballfanr33 on May 22, 2007 9:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i blame kendall
if he were sucking even more than he is sucking, nobody would notice that chavy is having his normal spring slump. how much lower does kendall have to take his batting average in order for you clowns to lay off of his teammates? .200? .150? .100? .050?.. does kendall have the toughness and grit to lower it further, so that he can take all the abuse rather than just his fair share? is he really that gritty?
i don't mind when chavy is honest; i prefer it to the usual robotic cliches. i don't think his honesty is what is affecting his production or the team's performance.
i do blame chavy for finding god. look what god did to napolean kaufman. i also think that maybe he (chavy, not god or napolean) is just trying to be too fine.
by danh on May 22, 2007 11:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
for all of our "political correctness"
on this site, I find the references to Chavez' faith completely inappropriate. I don't need to state the obvious ... I'm no big Chavez fan .... but to insinuate that a person's religious beliefs effect his play is to REALLY fish for absurd reasons for non-production.
I'll be the first guy to jump to his defense for his off-the-field choices, whatever they may be -- I thought that was what this site kind of prided itself on.
I'm getting the distinct impression that if those "choices" swing left we're much more apt to defend them, however. That's sad.
by Vacafan on May 23, 2007 3:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I pretty sure he forgot the sarcasm blocks.
by DMOAS on May 23, 2007 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
jeebers!
i'm as serious about blaming his beliefs as i am about blaming kendall for his production! i. was. joking.
i don't care if chavy believes in god, and i don't care if god believes in chavy. i like watching chavy play baseball and believe that he is trying his best and maybe even trying too hard sometimes. i appreciate that he answers questions honestly and have no need for him to give the usual robo-answers. i'm happy or don't care that you (or chavy) are a believer if it makes you a happier better person to other people on our planet. i'm unhappy if people use religion to make the planet a worse place, very happy if they use it to be inspired to make the world a better place, and i strongly believe religion is used both ways. when i see it used in a negative way, i think "a little less love for god, a little more common decency for your fellow man" to paraphrase vonnegut.
i bet you and i deep down agree on a lot more than we disagree on.
peace and love and stuff.
by danh on May 23, 2007 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
joke.bombed.
by grover on May 23, 2007 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
REALLY fish for absurd reasons for non-production
pot, kettle
by monkeyball on May 23, 2007 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it's not politically correct to say so...
...but to say that a person's religous conversion would never affect an individual's performance, as if everybody is the same, is naive. Fact is people are different, and how a particular event will affect performance will vary from one person to the next.
I am not familiar with Napoleon Kaufman's story, nor was I aware of Chavez' story until I read it in this thread, but I do remember when Gary Gaetti was Born Again, and I never felt that he was the same player afterward. He seemed to lack the fire and intensity, and especially leadership, that he had shown before. Some of his teamates said pretty much the same thing, and that he became something of a loner in the clubhouse and not the "leader by example" that he had been.
Keep in mind that I'm not saying this is a bad thing in Chavez' case. Not at all. Merely an explanation why he might seem more "accepting" than before.
by UncleLeo on May 23, 2007 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So your arguement is...
if Chavez was a lesser man he'd be a better baseball player.
Baseball's important but in the grand scheme of things I'll take the better man.
by grover on May 23, 2007 7:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grover
Why am I getting the feeling that you know that this season done? Your posts keep getting nicer and nicer. Is it the meds? If so, where can i get some?
by Colorado Fan on May 23, 2007 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess its 'cause I found Jesus
Or I'm getting more sex.
by grover on May 23, 2007 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or both... perhaps at the same time?
not that I'm judging you or anything.
by DMOAS on May 23, 2007 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only when my wife
uses the techniques she learned from Cosmo magazine.
by grover on May 23, 2007 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are my hero
for the next 5 minutes... or 30 seconds. Whichever's faster.
by DMOAS on May 23, 2007 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We haven't found a 30 sec technique
But the 5 minute one is called the Brazilian Twist.
Yowzers!
by grover on May 23, 2007 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Praise Jesus!!!
by DMOAS on May 23, 2007 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i find the references to your faith
completely inappropriate. or, like, whatever.
by danh on May 23, 2007 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No worries
We've already established that you have no sense of humor.
by grover on May 23, 2007 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
grover has gone soft!
loooooossssseeeeerrrrr!
by bigelephant on May 23, 2007 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
<checks price of ivory on black market>
Hey BigE, could I have a word with you in private?
by grover on May 23, 2007 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW
I thought this post was really funny.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on May 23, 2007 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Market ineffiencies
Moneyball is about how BB used market inefficiencies to win. Can someone explain to me how spending more that 25% of your 2007 salary on Kendall and Chavez (yes i know on the pirates are paying for some of kendall, i just cant easily find out how much so im left with on face numbers) is efficient? According to baseball prospectus if their current totals are projected over an entire season they will cost us 36 runs over their replacement players. Thats just unacceptable.
Also, just from watching games this year, Chavez seems to have a much different approach at the plate in years past. He seems to be flailing at pitches down and away that he use to lay off or take to left with authority.
I don't expect Chavy to hit 45 jacks while keeping his bating average above .300 and I know his defense saves runs and lots of them. But for about 1/9th of the teams payroll he should be producing more than what he is. Youre getting paid to be the man so stop complaining.
by designatedforassignment on May 23, 2007 12:05 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Consistently underperform
... is an oxymoron. Is this the level of performance expected when Chavez was signed to his long term deal? Of course not. This is the risk of multi-year contracts. Chavez will be 30 in December and it looks like he hasn't aged well. IMHO his willingness to play hurt refutes claims that he is soft. I find his public candor refreshing. In contrast Bradley has nothing to say and will appear in fewer games than Alan Embree.
by NoeValley on May 23, 2007 8:13 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
elbow or "forearms"
what is exactly hurting on my boy chavey? sf paper says elbow.
by bigelephant on May 23, 2007 10:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
chron also sez ...
... that Duke is DL'ed with a hip "strain" -- whereas previously the A's had been claiming it was merely arthritic.
I think the A's should hire Monica Goodling as Larry Davis's liaison to the front office.
by monkeyball on May 23, 2007 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I assume from this thread that
Chavvy would hire Ms. Goodling if in need of legal counsel.
by mikeA on May 23, 2007 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
< snerk >
Nicely riposted, D'Artagnan.
by monkeyball on May 23, 2007 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really Hurt Bad w/ RISP and 2 Out
but feel fine when up by 7 runs
by solotar on May 23, 2007 11:49 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He is the worst with less than two outs and
runner on third. I think he has like ONE SacFly this season. This is the main reason he pisses me off
by Hawaii FO on May 23, 2007 4:08 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Anyone bashing Chavez contract is a grade A moran
Here's Chavy's OPS+ from 00-04 (before the contract)
118
131
122
132
132
Combine that with his glove and the fact he was only 26 at the time and 6 years 66 mil is an awesome deal.
No one could have seen the offensive dropoff to the 106 OPS+ the past two years. I think injury is the reason for it, its really difficult to quantify what else it could be.
Way too much "What have you done for me lately" sentiment around here. I would think an A's site of all places would have some better ideas of things like sample sizes but I guess there are just going to be moran's everywhere.
by awesomer on May 23, 2007 4:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Too perfect

by FreeSeatUpgrade on May 23, 2007 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup, exactly where the word comes from
Greatest. Picture. Ever.
by awesomer on May 23, 2007 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think...
the Moran family will be too happy to see this one...
by The Pilots Dared Me To Die on May 24, 2007 12:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sample Size
2 years of sample size isn't enough to criticize Eric Chavez? Do we have to wait until we buy out is option in 2012?
I'm not too big of a Chavvy basher. But I would like for him to put together better PA's, and show more discipline at the plate. Didn't he walk a lot more in the past, too?
If you're going to get paid the big bucks, be prepared to take the most criticism. Chavvy's really lucky we're not Boston or Yankee fan. He would have been run out of town already. But I guess that's why Chavvy signed for less to stay in Oakland... less money, less pressure, less expectations, less criticism?
by Colorado Fan on May 24, 2007 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chavez, just keep your mouth shut (my 2 cents)
Ok, I am tired of the incessant Chavez bashing that is going on here. This is America, and you certainly have every right to say whatever you want, but your comments are a little out of line.
For one thing, even with the injuries the A's have had, Chavez has played in more games than most other people. Add to that, even though his offense may have suffered a little bit, his defense hasn't. He may not be hitting them out like A-ROD, but ain't many getting by him, either.
If you want to bash someone, go ahead. (Would you rather he take his 6 gold gloves and play in someone elses' back yard?"
LARRY
by larryh on May 29, 2007 11:26 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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