The AN Update and a (re)Design Proposal
by rebus on Mar 3, 2007 5:27 PM PST
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PrintWhen Blez informed us there would be a redesign of AN, I was stoked. I already like the user experience, and it's still improving. That said, I'm a little disappointed with the newest incarnation of our beloved site. Here's my feedback as a graphic designer– I'll try to keep it succinct and constructive.
What I like about the update...
Loading times. Threads with 100+ comments used to load quite slowly for me. Now they're much faster, even though my connection is the same. We'll see if it holds up for regular season game threads, but so far, it's a big improvement.
Coding shortcuts for replies. Bold, italic, blockquote, and link shortcuts are great. I'm okay with the preview button, but, as someone else stated, a post button should be added to bypass this optional step. Preview is really only necessary to ensure images and links work. I'm skeptical that it will help prevent spelling errors.
Shrinking posts dynamically. My favorite addition because it gives us a more fluid use of the vertical space, but I think it could be better utilized (I'll explain later).
What I think could be improved...
The unanchored page. This isn't about the update, but I think it's AN's biggest flaw. Please stop stretching the page. It messes with the line lengths and creates an overall sense of instability. Most well designed blogs are anchored to the middle of the page, preserving the layout of their text. I can't stress the importance of this enough.
Use shrinking menus on the navigation. Content in the margins is nice, but there's way too much of it. The page is quickly becoming too busy. I think you should make all sections except Recommended Diaries and Recent Diaries like posts are now with the update. I mean, do we really need a list of every AN interview as a viewable link on the front page?
Take back the header. I know advertising revenue is important to keep this great site going, but committing the whole banner at the top to sponsors is too much. It's a critical space for most web pages, a place where identity is formed. The first thing I see on the page should be AN related. I think I'd rather have ad redirect pages than this constantly at the top of the page, but really, there's no need for either. The page could be redesigned to work ad space into the margins.
Here is what AN might look like if I had my druthers (linked here). It might seem drastic, but really all I did was pull the left column next to the right, allowing the main content to breathe a little, and added what shrinking menus might look like. Ad space is there on the right margin, and buttons and comments would be nearly identical. I did change the masthead around a bit (not a big fan of gradients and drop shadows) and dull the sidebar yellow (I know it's further from team colors, but the current version is so bright), but very little needs to be done in order to rearrange a page this way.
I did this during today's game, so it's a little piecemeal, but I think you get the idea. Options for the number of recent diaries viewable is a crucial feature, and would still be there, but I forgot those icons.
Any thoughts?
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I'm weighing in only as
That being said, I think your critiques are mostly in line with my own thoughts--as best as I can tell because I can't even get AN to look normal anymore (given my outdated Mac Operating System). I think a lot of that has to do with the "stretching" you're talking about, so I am crossing my fingers big-time that this is successfully addressed at some point.
As with a baseball game itself, all that matters is how things are at the end. Hopefully, over the next few days, those happy mediums will be reached...I know the "powers that be" are working hard at it right now trying to make it work well for techies like you, and dinosaur-tapping ignorami like me, alike.
I only disagree with the issue about the banner ads, simply because I think Blez has to do whatever he needs to do in order to generate revenue. I'll accept those ads, as is, to ensure the existence of AN, any day.
I just think there's an alternative place for the
ads, that's all. If that's really where they've got to go, then I would accept that, but I don't believe that's the case.
I recall Blez saying that
banner ads make dramatically more money. And it doesn't really bother me much anyway.
I love your redesign
I think you're on to something.
And I really agree on the preview thing: it should be optional, not mandatory.
Although there is a potential flaw that I just realized. Images that are too large, and long comment strings will become a problem with that layout, and with the static layout you proposed. Could it be possible to either
a) anchor the right side to the right side of the screen and make it so that the page expands left the bigger the browser is set?
b) Visa Versa, and put the bars on the left side.
I have a widescreen monitor, and a high resolution, so this is important to me. Even now when long threat comments pile up (especially in the DLD's) they get squashed into a small pile. That would be very annoying in a static desgin like you proposed. The reason why other blogs work like that is because few seem to allow replies directly to individual posts within a thread like AN does.
On the subject of indented replies:
Maybe there's a better way to indicate a reply than an indentation? Off the top of my head, I'm not sure, but I do know I could get by without them. I use the 'new' tags a lot more than I follow indentation.
might be possible to limit the number of indentations before a returned line. Maybe 3-5? I agree that the indents are useful on some level, but they can definitely get out of hand too.
What if there were two icons that separated posts? [new post] and [new reply]?
I think the best solution would be to only indent the first reply. Then whatever follows is on its own. Over five indents is annoying to me, but that's only a personal preference.
Hey Rebus, I can give you some druthers...
..I've got a rather large site that needs a redesign - stat. But because it's largely run by volunteers and only one of them knows coding (and is shaky on design), it's looked the same (busy) way for the last five years.
You interested in knocking together a design for us?
hey, i recognize that e-mail address
Good doing business with you in fantasy baseball...nothing like a trade within 24 hours of the draft. Fills a need for both teams. I just made about 5 posts saying just that on the site, in fact.
(note to xbx: participating in another AN league does not mean I'm going to pull an NSJ and drop out of yours. I just couldn't pass up an opportunity to join a league with 21 (!) categories...including fielding pct and GIDP-induced. And to think we spent all that time debating about the merits of 12 vs 14...)
Plus, as a bonus for you guys (xbx, devo, grover, etc), my rankings are all fucked up from that league now.
I think I have the best lineup in the league, perhaps...15 teams:
Posada
Delgado
Kinsler
Jeter
Gordon
Blalock (util IF)
Beltran
Ichiro
Drew
Bradley (4th OF)
Nick Johnson (util)
that's lethal in any format...esp in a deep league that favors AVG/OBP/speed over power.
Pitching is ok. Felix, Kazmir, Bedard, Sowers, Millwood, Livan, 4 horrible closers.
an idea on the banner ad
I think one way it could be fixed with the current layout that would make it much smoother would be to move the Banner ad to be centered in the middle of the page (sort of like it is now) but lower, on level with the AN Logo. This would remove the HUGE chunk of space at the top that is dedicated alone to a single, rahter small in comparison, banner ad.
blind feedback
Being blind and thus navigating this site with my screen reading software, I am finding the new layout to be more difficult than previously. I'm sure that it is parcially due to simple familiarity with the old structure, but that aside, it is harder and takes longer to get around the site and diaries for me right now.
Would an Eye Transplant help?
Dan Johnson's got Double Vision, I'm sure he can lend you a pair.
But yeah, one thing we learned in Web Architecture class is that you ALWAYS have to think from the perspective of someone with a disability before hand, because it will be a real pain for them to have to go back and fix anything if they left something out.
Is there anything specific that you are having trouble with?
I hope Cristobalm's software...
has problems reading him that comment.
Not that I'm immune to making controversial statements myself, but...maybe some sensitivity training should take precedence over the web architecture classes.
I'll take a look at the site with lynx.
Is that what you use, or at least reasonably close?
by ct on Mar 3, 2007 6:31 PM PST up reply actions
lynx seems to work
by ct on Mar 3, 2007 6:37 PM PST up reply actions
One big feature needed: Expand New
When I look at a diary with something like "100 comments, 5 new" I usually want to read the new comments. Make it easy for me! Have an option to Expand Only New Comments. It would definitely be my default.
by matthias on Mar 3, 2007 6:34 PM PST reply actions
i agree, i like that idea
that's a change...
I can support.
Small upgrades such as the one you mentioned are useful. Wholesale changes like the ones we're experiencing now are completely disorienting and disillusioning...were it not for the fact that I'm an addict, they might actually drive me away from the site for an extended period of time. They're incredibly aesthetically displeasing, and the practicality of many of the additions are questionable as well.
I hear you.
Or read you. And I'll be drawn to reading you over and over and over again because your comments' little red "new"s will never go away. I was just OFF the computer completely for the past two hours, yet half the comments that show as "new" in here are things I saw, repeatedly, for half an hour before I signed off. Two hours ago. I think next time I sign off, I'll just stay signed off for at least long enough for that glitch to be fixed.
I don't dislike change just for the sake of disliking change, and I don't complain about anything, ever, "just because it's new/different." But there was nothing wrong with AN before... at least, nothing that's been addressed by the (glaring, visually unfriendly) changes.
alright
the guerilla troops are being mobilized, haha
In the spirit of the other thread:
AN 3.0
(I want to keep that glitch, too)
by Cutthemullet on Mar 3, 2007 11:15 PM PST up reply actions
My thoughts
Bear in mind that I am not a professional graphic designer, nor do I explore web design as a hobby, so I have no suggestions that are as succinct as rebus'. These are my opinions as a regular ordinary USER; I possess an amount of computer literacy and comfort that is probably about the same as most people like me whose livelihood, education and hobbies do not require extensive knowledge of computer guts.
I'm also more than willing to accept correction if my dislike of something is simply a result of my own "user error"; if it seems that I might be misusing a function, or not fully understanding its purpose, please point that out to me.
What I like:
The ability to save a draft of a diary before posting it.
HTML shortcut buttons are a good idea, but my post keeps coming up with mysterious HTML errors when I try to use them -- so I didn't use them where I wanted to in this comment, and actually had to cut & paste my comment into here (a new window of AN) from the preview because I couldn't find whatever problem it kept telling me I had.
Tags, which would be even more helpful if they could be sorted alphabetically when viewing "all tags".
What I DON'T like:
The red "new" flags that don't go away when either manually refreshing the page, or when setting to Autorefresh. I think a lot of us rely on "new" flags quite a bit in busy threads.
"Expanded" comments take up too much vertical space for some reason; also, sig lines look like part of the comment. Could the blank space between the sig line and the user name be eliminated?
I'd like to use the "Shrink" option to alleviate the vertical space issues that "Expand" has, but the huge font in the subject lines of "shrunk" comments is really jarring, and the minimalist indentation makes threads/subthreads harder to follow.
I agree with rebus' assertion that it's important to have things anchored, but I'm not sure how or if that might be related to the fact (well, my opinion) that the yellow bar on the left side of the page is really intrusive and reduces usable comment space.
Probably an easy fix -- the "number of votes" that appears on poll results' graph bars is illegible.
Count me as another vote for having a "Preview" OPTION on comments. A button that says "Preview" and a button that says "Post", just like before. It should not be mandatory for all of us just because some people have complained that there's no way to edit comments. There's still no way to edit comments, so do what you should have been doing all along: Proofread your comment and make changes before you submit it. Just like I'm about to do.
A few thoughts
Generally, a positive change. A lot of the stuff that's bothering me seems to be glitches that will get fixed (i.e. text cut off on the right, erratic font sizes, mysterious html errors when I'm not using any html, the "new" signals (hopefully a glitch).
1. A "post" button is essential. One of the nice things about the changes is they give more options for different tastes. (I was worried that autorefresh would be automatic, but it is great the way it is because it can be used for game threads and turned off elsewhere.) This should apply to the decision of whether to preview your post. I don't proofread the vast majority of my posts, and I'm not going to start just because I have to preview.
2. I think the whole design needs to be more compact, especially the comments. The diary font is too large, and I notice on dkos that the front page stories and the comments are the same (reasonable) font, while the diaries have a large font, which doesn't make much sense to me.
3. I would like to see the comment-ranking system replace the current CGV system in some fashion, so that you could click on a CG-offending comment to give a warning. However, I don't like that the dkos system seems to be public (probably necessary there as I imagine they have much bigger trolling problems) and "recommending" individual comments is sort of asinine.
4. I support narrower margins.
<preview>Why does the preview screen erase things I have in brackets? baffling.
<preview> <post>
Glitch alert
This comment got an html error ("tag li"), and I to cut-and-paste to windows notepad and then cut-and-paste back to here to make it work. Sorry about misusing tag "li".
(I really do like the changes for the most part)
That "tag li" error...
Exactly what happened to me. I spent half an hour hunting for stray brackets & such, and finally started screaming & throwing chairs, which seemed to fix the problem. No... wait, that's not it. I cut & pasted.
See, I don't think the margins are troublesome
but, with the current stretching, they can feel confining. I practically get claustrophobia resizing...it's like an Indiana Jones trap.
If you want the type smaller, you should be able to do it in you browser, ctrl/minus for a PC, cmnd/minus. If not, check your internet prefs in your browser.
I think it's because the old way...
...didn't used to have the column on the left in the comment area. Comments went all the way over to the left. Didn't they?
Exactly right, Poppy
Here a random LL thread in SBN "Classic".
Also, if you open this AN thread and the LL thread in separate tabs, you'll see that the right margin actually is a bit wider now.
After putting those LL comments beside these...
There is definitely something wrong about the vertical size of the sig line. The LL comments' subject lines and text lines line-up perfectly with ours, but our sigs waste a lot of space. Also, our new username & dateline font size is a little bigger, but that's fine. It's the sig lines and wide margins that are wasting so much space. I don't want to eliminate sig lines, though, because they're fun.
i'm confused by this
i can see all the comments just fine, but it sounds like they're going too far to the right for some people.
what browser are you using?
i don't think it's a problem with the most recent IE or firefox...
Ahhh that's it.
OK, the left-hand column needs to go! Or (looking at dkos) needs to be much narrower!
dkos
we need to steal their comment rating system as well
This comment has said "new" for a long time
I think you're trying to hog attention.
i don't remember
i agree, the left yellow bar is totally useless, there's nothing in it. at least the right one has stuff (diaries, etc.)
I notice...
when you expand a comment, the subject text is smaller now. I like that.
Overall, I'm not having any problems.... of course, I haven't been in a very busy thread to see how that feels yet.
Early in the game thread wasn't exactly busy
But it was busy enough that I could see how the redesign could get unpleasant.
I am having the same problem
as you... the NEW button doesn't go away for a bit. But I love the auto refresh so far.
I don't think Autorefresh will be useful...
...in real game threads. It seems to take too long.
I don't know how long it takes for
your computer to show new comments, but mine appeared in less than 30 seconds. And I'm on 2.5k dial up.
LOL
I'm mildly dyslexic, so I already read pretty damn slowly!
Your comment that I'm replying to right now gave me the autorefreshment popup while I was typing my reply to Soaker, above. Then when I posted my reply to Soaker, the popup showed only me (even though I hadn't yet read yours). That's why I want the "new" flags to be reliable -- I won't always go right to what the popup tells me about right away (especially if I'm at work and I'm actually... you know... working).
I have a little red * next to some comments
Are those the newest comments, I assume?
I'm not having that problem, I guess. I have the new comment things popping up all the time.
Where to put the Sigs?
How about putting the signatures UNDER the name line. So it would look like this instead:
by rebus on Sat Mar 03, 2007 at 06:59:08 PM PST
"The future's like, who cares?" ~Eric Chavez
[ Parent | Reply to This ]
Does it only autorefresh...
...when there are actual new comments posted? Or should it periodically autorefresh regardless of activity?
I had the game thread on auto-refresh
and I was doing stuff in other windows. When I opened the AN window, it updated everything.
Also, when I had it open for awhile, it did something that seemed like it was refreshing, but with no new comments and no change to the "new" labels. It will eventually be different I think.
I think it refreshes every few seconds.
My little green bars on the Status bar pop up every so often.
I don't like Autorefresh,
but I'm leaving it on to give it a fair chance.
While I was typing my reply to Nico's comment, below, the little popup popped up and said "new comment from mikeA". As soon as I finished, previewed and posted my reply, though, the popup said "new comment from Poppy"... so it didn't help me navigate right to that vaunted new comment from mikeA, I had to go scrolling for it. That's why it's going to be unhelpful in busy threads.
Feh.
I laughed, I cried, I got a migraine...
see my post above
it's the one that will be marked [new] the next eight times you refresh this page...
Only eight?
Lucky.
OK
here I am in Netscape and there is no problem. I've only used my oooooooooooold desktop since the change, but I update firefox frequently and it has that problem, but netscape (which I downloaded this afternoon onto the same computer) does not.
I downloaded the new version of firefox like two months ago, and it's always automatically upgrading...
Leave your love life out of this
No problem
Most of what I say or write is left-leaning, anyway.
Good, because nothing
Good idea: Here are my comments
"We rock!"
"WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!"
"FIRE GEREN NOW!"
"Woo-hoo!!!!!!"
"Oh God, not ANOTHER injury."
Except your Sig
which seems to lean to the right with quote by "Dar".
Conclusion:
That could be your screen resolution
I'm at 1280 x 1024 and I have way too much white space to the right of each comment. I temporarily changed to 800 x 600 and then, yeah, the comments ran off to the right.
Yes!
My only complains so far about the changes:
The indent isn't big enough to tell the difference between the start of a comment and their replies.
And worse, is that the only way to see anything around the last 5-10 characters on the right is to use the mouse and highlight and force scroll to the right. The result is losing the left side. I can handle having a bar that forces me to do that, but it's annoying that I have to enter the frame itself and go to that trouble. And if I don't do it, half the comments here don't make any sense.
I hate to break it to you,
I resemble that remark, oops
I meant I resent that remark
by theblackpearl on Mar 3, 2007 8:42 PM PST up reply actions
Don't worry: Statistically,
Here's a random question: Why does everyone else have spacing between their "subject" line and the rest of the comment, but I don't? Or am I only one seeing it that way? (Which means that far from "seeing double" I'm actually "seeing half," which means I'm incredibly sober.)
Whoa
That's bizarre. You really are the only one to not have spacing between the subject line and the rest of the comment. Chaos!
<preview><post>
But...
When his comment consists of two paragraphs, there is a second line between the first and second paragraph.
Huh, that's weird
I made the "extra line" comment about Nico's posts while I was viewing with IE7. Back in Firefox, the extra line does not exist.
But, the no-space between Nico's subject line and text exists in both browsers.
Here's an experiment:
I am intentionally hitting return before typing "I am intentionally hitting return before typing"...Let's see what happens...
Hey, it worked!
Now I just have to remember to do that every time I comment for the rest of my life, while no one else has to. That seems fair.
Sorry
but your not one of the people on the up and up, otherwise you'd have known I was referring to the .01% of the comments that do make sense. You're just too tall to understand. Talk to Cindi, she can explain.
Cindi's very busy at the moment--
Once she gets an idea in her head, there's no stopping her. Luckily, this rarely happens.
All I heard was ...
She heard about "autorefresh" and she's sure there must be that function.
Once she gets an idea in her head, there's no stopping her.
happens.
question for apricot
how do i get the greasemonkey killfile thing to work on new AN?
Question for plum
My sentence isn't really any weirder, y'know!
Question for Strawberry
How do I get the greaseelephant jaywalkfile thing to work on new BY?
Too fruity?
Hey, I know plenty of gay people
Maybe it's just me
but if I have to wait for the light, I'm not happy.
it's only compatible with
barry bonds buttplug version 3.1
Hey now
that's totally inapprioriate. How dare you bring that here. Seriously, what has a buttplug ever done to you for you make such an offensive statement like that?
For the record:
For the Record
while I'm all him not telling us, I'd prefer that over hearing anything about Bonds. Unless we're talking about bail bonds, in which case, I'm all Korn... er ears.
darn it
I'll talk to the killfile maintainer after the site changes have settled down. It looks to me that the HTML/CSS now puts comment text into a div class="ct", which I think his killfile stuff can easily identify.
But I'll wait a bit until all the changes are rolled in.
A minor complaint
I miss the vertical rule between each comment. In general, they make everything easier to read. Some of the comments (particularly the consecutive non-indented ones) seem to run together without them.
yeah, that's really missed
We've traded that in for the line that runs vertically along the length of the post on the lefthand side...that's a fucking A trade, and we're on the losing side of it. For me that constitutes more than a minor complaint.
For the last day
I'd been trying to figure out what was different (besides all of the other stuff that's also different). (And of course I meant the horizontal line, but you get me.)
for the first day...
it was fighting off PTSD. That's only slightly melodramatic, heh. Anyway, only now have I finally decided to actually check out the individual changes that were made.
And I really didn't know if you made a mistake by saying vertically there, heh. Made me think of lines of latitude, which run horizontally but measure distance N/S...so yeah, I knew what you meant.
by Cutthemullet on Mar 3, 2007 11:04 PM PST up reply actions
I don't know if this is temporary...
but "recent" posts are remaining tagged as "new" for quite a while.
For the record
This is basically a stop-gap reworking and adding extra functionality to AN. There will be a much different re-design of the site coming later in 2007 as we get several tech people and designs working on the new look and feel for SB Nation blogs.
I know this is far from perfect, but the goal of reworking things here was just to give ANers the extra functionality of ajax comments and to act as a temporary solution while we work laboriously away on the bigger picture.
Give the changes some time as people inevitably always hate change. But I can guarantee you're going to like it once you get more used to it.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Mar 3, 2007 9:52 PM PST reply actions
how about...
being able to choose between the old and new settings? Is that even possible? I mean, sure, I can currently offset the downgrade a bit by saving the indented, enlarged comments that I prefer as my default setting...but that doesn't make everything else go away. How about...the option of choosing between the new and old design, especially if this look isn't really all that close to being the finished product (which you say will be ready in late 2007)?
Also, Blez, I hate to...be such a hater, but...why couldn't this have been worked out over the offseason? Doing this now is akin to an athlete opting to wait until 2 weeks before the season begins to undergo major surgery that could've been done at any point over the offseason.
by Cutthemullet on Mar 3, 2007 10:05 PM PST up reply actions
Do you mean like if
well
I wasn't going to name any names (or maybe...I just didn't think of any besides Shaq) but yeah, Kotsay's a perfect example.
Now if only you'd have hit enter before you typed "Kotsay has surgery now", I'd futilely try to give your comment a good rating.
by Cutthemullet on Mar 3, 2007 10:52 PM PST up reply actions
Give it time
Everyone hates anything new at first. And it makes more sense than ever to do this right now. New season, new functionality. Why upgrade when fewer people are there? I like to try and make a splash.
Like I said, we've kept the same basic layout but gave the comments a big upgrade and added a bunch of shortcuts. I love the new functionality.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Mar 3, 2007 10:28 PM PST up reply actions
Functionality is great,
but I feel like the layout makes it difficult to take full advantage of its benefits. I'm glad it's not permanent, because it's manageable, just not preferable.
And I really think the whole "Everyone hates change" deal is a bit of a lame argument. These are legitimate gripes that have reason behind them, not an ignorant dislike. I think it's wiser to keep an open ear toward criticism (and I think you do), but a comment like that makes it seem like you're just discounting some rational opinions.
I'm not discounting opinions
and trust me, we're working on making it look as good as possible. That's why I'm sending numerous emails to our tech guys at 11 p.m. on a Sat. night with suggested changes.
Also, I'm not a designer but I really like the changes. I think it makes the site look much better. But like I said, I'm not a designer.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Mar 3, 2007 10:47 PM PST up reply actions
Thanks, I know you're working hard on it.
I just think it's more accurate to say that any update, no matter how good, will not please everyone; not that everyone will hate any update.
Know what I mean?
Yeah
That's definitely true. I was just saying that people in general don't like change, as humans are creatures of habit. That's all.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Mar 3, 2007 10:57 PM PST up reply actions
Thats not totally true
Change is needed, and can pump a lot of life into things.
For example, one of the most popular video games ever is Counter-Strike, a mod of Half Life. One of the reasons why it was so popular was, especially during the Betas, every new version would be different from the previous, usually in small but signifigant ways. The end result was that it never got boring because it was as if you were playing a new game every few months.
I think change is good, and I generally like it, as long as it improves the product and does not take away from it. But if you need an example where change is bad, and in a forum as well, check out the ESPN message boards, which have gotten exponentially worse every time they try to update it (and buggier too!).
That's why I said
in general. I'm loving the fact that I can just sit here with this thread open and click on any new comment that comes up without having to do anything.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Mar 3, 2007 11:12 PM PST up reply actions
I think I speak for many
when I say that we really appreciate the hard work you do on AN, both content-wise and delivery-wise. But I'd like to make a suggestion, and that's not to take the grumblings personally. People have legitimate complaints and they're not directed at you, or your efforts, just the end-user interface. I know it's natural to want to defend your efforts, but it's not fair to say that "people hate change."
Keep up the good work!
<preview><post>
Hear, Hear.
I realize that some posters may not sound constructive with their criticism, but this is often because they're frightened -- not of change per se, but of the possibility that they'll no longer be able to effectively participate in this community you have built, and which they greatly enjoy. Reassure them that the glitches are glitches and are being repaired, and that their other concerns are at least being heard, and you'll find they're on your side, as in fact they always were.
by Loon from Left on Mar 4, 2007 11:18 PM PST up reply actions
overall, good post, but...
I think the last paragraph actually comes across as more patronizing than a blanket statement that "humans hate change, therefore they resent the new AN." Words such as "frightened" and "reassure" leave that impression, which I don't think was entirely intentional...but it is subtly patronizing to take on the instructive tone that you did in that paragraph "just pat those frightened critics on the head and tell them it will all be ok in the end...", so I don't think it's entirely due to the usage of those specific words.
by Cutthemullet on Mar 4, 2007 11:29 PM PST up reply actions
give me my three dots back
"in that paragraph...(just..."
by Cutthemullet on Mar 4, 2007 11:31 PM PST up reply actions
Erk! Sorry!
I think it was just bad word choice on my part though. My point was just that Blez and the redesign's critics are really on the same side, trying to make AN as good as it can be, and that even seemingly non-constructive criticism actually comes from that very desire to help improve AN; obviously, I shouldn't have referred to it as any kind of fear.
Likewise, my point about "reassurance" and "letting people know they're being heard," though poorly worded, was intended as the opposite of "pats on the head." My underlying assumption was that Blez and the tech folks really are listening to input from the community, and trying to find ways to fix the glitches and implement popular changes (including popular changes-back, e.g. the return of the post button). If this is true, telling critics things like, "Got that; we'll see what we can do" would help make things smoother (it seems to me) than things like, "You're going to like it when you get used to it," which implies (falsely, I assume) that all the changes are permanent and not themselves open to change.
by Loon from Left on Mar 5, 2007 1:07 PM PST up reply actions
eh
creatures of habit, yes, but just as much resistant to rather drastic change that's forced upon them. I mean, it's only a website, but...it's one I visit daily. Same goes for a lot of people. I like democrats (small d) over technocrats, heh.
I like that you're sending the e-mails though...there's certainly been quite a bit of decent feedback in this thread worth taking into account.
by Cutthemullet on Mar 3, 2007 11:11 PM PST up reply actions
We're trying to address some of the issues
We'll see what we can get done.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Mar 3, 2007 11:13 PM PST up reply actions
cool
I suppose I'll give it sometime before I doth protest too strongly again (see, now there's a positive change, in language...being able to use "doth" only as a luxury, and incorrectly too.)
by Cutthemullet on Mar 3, 2007 11:20 PM PST up reply actions
As long as something more permanent is in the
works, that's cool. I love change, just good change.
So then why not wait to debut the new
AN all at once? New versions are a pain to get used to when it happens every few months. Get all the bugs worked out and do it all at once.
For one thing ...
it's hard to get the bugs worked out of something before it goes live.
While one might argue that it'd be a good idea to let a few of the lesser sites be guinea pigs, they wouldn't have the experience and insight that we do and that wouldn't tell us much about how it would work when diaries regularly get 300 comments or when CTM replies to himself 17 consecutive times.
For two thing -- major overhauls like Blez is discussing take months to design, build, test, rebuild, test some more, live test, etc ... I, for one, despite my posts (I do generally fear change ... just not in this instance) to the contrary appreciate getting the new functionality out there.
Blez: one slight adjustment that would be fantastic is if we could just expand the new comments.
Back to Sal, the previous suggestion would be an example of something that would not be an issue in a diary that only had a handful of comments. If we want a design that will work well for AN, its components have to be tested on a site like AN. Since there is only one site like AN in the sportsblog family, we'll just have to be our own guinea pigs. (Don't worry, I'm sure Blez will test all new designs on other sites first, making sure they aren't fatal to humans before rolling them out here ... sadly, the users at Halos Heaven are not sufficiently evolved to be a safe test case.)
But a network-wide redesign
shouldn't just work well for AN, it should be robust enough for all sites. And while AN is the logical test case for changes, it's not because of our uniqueness. BleedCubbieBlue, LookoutLanding, and Vivaelbirdos are three other very well-trafficked and commented blogs. The reason why AN is the logical test-case is because the man in charge (Blez) monitors it frequently. (And that's fine with me.)
The fact that working out the bugs is tough once something goes live is all the more reason to limit the number of major site redesigns. If we have another redesign coming soon, it might be easier (on the user) to just roll the two upgrades into one. While it may be more effort for the tech team, I think we can all agree that sites like this thrive on user-friendliness.
This is intended to be a pretty small change
compared to what we're going to be doing down the road. The essence of this upgrade was to add the new commenting system and tweak the overall look of the site so that the ad at the top blended more naturally.
We didn't really change all that much compared to what we're going to be doing down the road which will essentially be a complete and total overhaul of the layout, look and functionality. And while I'm optimistic it will happen by the end of the year, you never know with tech. It could be a lot longer.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Mar 5, 2007 9:46 AM PST up reply actions
way too much white...
The gold background that the comment page previously featured was much better...I have a rather cynical theory that the idea behind the repulsive whiteness may be to get you to divert your eyes to the enlarged left margin, which I'm sure will be filled with ads in short order...kind of like the idea behind the standard hideous carpeting that you find in casinos, the purpose of which is to keep your eyes fixed on the gaming tables.
If I'm right, that's pretty insidious.
the main question of course is whether secret
messages are still possible.
Doh! Initial experiments indicate no. You'll just have to manually make things invisible by putting your finger over the next centimeter of text.
(do not read)-----------------------------------
Man, you turn your back on AN for a few days and suddenly EVERYTHING'S DIFFERENT! I feel like a dog after a big thunderstorm. Where are my scent trails?
(okay to read now)-------------------------------
Admins, if there is no specific security concern, I'd love it if you re-allowed div style="" and span style-"" in comments. We used to have a lot of fun with that. Snuffle.
Woohoo!
The red [NEW]s went away!
I am not kissing blez' ass or anything, but I actually like the changes. All the comments are neatly collapsed until I want to read them, I can collapse any comments I have already read, I can keep any comments I don't want to read small so they don't take up space, and the autorefresh is awesome. My OCD approves!
I'm happy for you.
And I'm actually not being sarcastic -- I am glad that most people aren't as put off by the redesign as I am, and that they feel it's an improvement that will enhance their experience here. I'm not in that boat, though, unless some of the glitches can be fixed (maybe the red "new"s glitch has been fixed, I can't tell yet), and some of the spatial issues can be changed.
The 3 things that I put in my "what I like" list are not things that make me go "oooh" and improve my own experience. And a couple of the things in my "what I don't like" list will make AN significantly less usable for me. Not just less enjoyable, but less usable, and it's not simply a matter of "getting accustomed to it." I'm not that slow.
I'm going to keep giving Autorefresh chances to impress me, also will see whether the "new" problem has gone away by tomorrow's game thread (with and without Autorefresh).
I also just discovered something else I LIKE: I can see the whole thread while I'm replying to a comment, instead of just being able to see the comment that I'm replying to.
new posting trick needed: "n/t"
when a comment has no text, we need to start posting "n/t" in the title so people don't waste time opening the comment.
more blind feedback
Perhaps the ability to jump to certain sections of the page by using hot keys like headings? Maybe a text only version of the site? All I know is that it's quite laborious going through everything now and even trying to post these last two comments has been a bit of a challenge. all the buttons and links seem to be tagged properly, but sifting through them is another issue.
What browser does your screen reader use?
I've done some testing of the site with lynx (with a y), but if there's a better way for me to look, I'd be glad to hear it.
by ct on Mar 5, 2007 12:05 AM PST up reply actions
agreed
the site design probably ranks number 2 as my least favorite thing about this site (number 1 being blez's poor writing). the sad thing is, there are so many talented coders, designers, and writers out there these days there is no reason to put up with mediocrity. were it not for the interviews, i'd never drop by here.
rebus: my advice, just start your own site. your design looks infinitely better, and once you get some intelligent folk contributing, you'll be ready to kick some ass.
T T W I Y
Just a suggestion.
I don't know what that means
But it's probably a decent suggestion. Mentally I was looking at it as "WITT" with a stray Y, because I've read enough reviews/commentary online about NIN's double album "The Fragile", which contains the song "We're In This Together" (WITT), to automatically make that association.
The Twinkling Wanker Is Yours
Actually, they're just the capital letters that he forgot. I figured that if he was going to criticize Blez for bad writing...
comments on the layout
i think rebus' put the graphic up for a thought he /she had for an updated redesign, and I thought it was great. I like the web2.0 stuff, like what I'm assuming the menu's would do on the right?
i actually pre3fer the diaries / stories to end at the right, with everything else on the left, but that's just my deal.
I do like what's going on now, and haven't had many problems; 10.4.8, Firefox 2.
Would like to see those collapsible menus though, for sure.
what i don't get is
isn't most of the new stuff already used at dkos?
since they've had it for a while, why are there still so many problems?
stuff that still doesn't work:
-comment ratings (none / 0)
-hotlist (+)
-subscribe
-no "post" button option
design problems:
-yellow space to the left of the comments
-no horizontal line (gray dots) separating comments
-[new] stays on comments too long
-poll result bars are too dark
-comments take up too much vertical space
other suggestions:
-"expand new comments only" option
Some answers
I was gone much of the day doing daughter stuff -- the wifey's in a rather tired state right now.
Still looking for why the ratings thing isn't working right. As far as hotlist goes, that worked for me fine the other day when I tested it (oops, forgot to turn something on there). Subscriptions are part of the same mechanism. I feel your pain with the post button -- dkos doesn't have it either for comments. As soon as I figure out how to do it, it'll be there.
Design stuff: Keep in mind that when we were bringing this stuff over from dkos, we actually had to bring the whole dkos layout over, then make it look like the Sportsblogs sites already did. However, it wasn't a perfect fit, and we've been shaking the remaining problems out. Believe me, it wasn't nearly as trivial as one might imagine. There's stuff being done on the layout on the dev server to address some of these concerns. Blez volunteered AN as the second site to get this stuff, so it follows that more stuff might turn up.
I'd like to address the "new" thing: It only clears when you do a full refresh of the page. It's that way on dailykos too. The code that figures that out is surprisingly nasty and db intensive, but as I recall, it also would lead to the "new" tags clearing too early. I'll see if I can find another way around it, but the alternative was worse.
The "expand new comments only" thing is a pretty good idea. I didn't write the Ajax part of the new story and comment editors, just the server side of it, but I've been working on figuring out how it works. (I'd like that direct posting button too.) Hopefully an "expand all new" function turns out to be doable.
by ct on Mar 4, 2007 8:32 PM PST up reply actions
wow, thanks for the detailed response
i appreciate it, and i'm sure everyone else does as well.
i'm sure these changes aren't trivial. i'm just glad this stuff is being worked on now, and won't be put off until the late 2007 changes.
two more suggestions:
more search options on the search page.
would it be possible to have a second search thing that does a google search?
when you click on a username, the "next 15" diaries link at the bottom of the page doesn't work properly. that problem has been there all along.
When I read that comment
b/c of the cutting off the comment thing on the right, I read "I feel your pain button" and thought, what a nice feature. Not particularly useful, but nice. During the low points of the season I can see that getting used quite often.
lol
That one can be brought in as needed...like if Duke were to do an AN interview right now. Or in the middle of May, when AN switches gears from a "sports bar" blog to a support group.
re: comments running to the right
I'm using a different computer right now from the on I use 99% of the time I browse/post on AN...this one has both Mozilla and IE as browser options; on my home PC I'm too lazy to do anything but use AOL for browsing...curious to investigate these rumored problems with the right hand of the page, I tried out both Mozilla and IE...well, I'm on IE right now, because Mozilla was cutting off about the amount of text per line that would result in xbx calling for an "I feel your pain" button.
*one
here's a dirty little secret, guys: I never preview.
yes, thanks very much for those details
And it does seem like...
...the "new" problem has cleared up a little. It seems to hiccup a bit, but it did that in the old version sometimes, too. Hiccups are much, much more manageable than chunks of red false "new" hurl all over the page for hours on end.
when I clicked on both of your comments...
you had a -1 too. But now it's gone, which is how it works when I submit a response, then later check back for it. Glad I'm not being singled out with that treatment here.
by that I mean...
a "(-1)" replacing the "(none/0)".
actually I mean a 1
wow
If the strikethrough/cross-out glitch is ever corrected, I request that it is kept intact only for use on the number one. Look at how sweet that looks.
1 1 1 1 1 1 1, so pretty...should be a border design or something
actually...
It looks kind of like a calligraphic 7...which is what appears most often on my golf scorecard. It's always a psychological boost after a far-too-routine triple bogey to mark it down with a fancy seven...my score may be worse than yours, but it looks better. Kind of goes along with the "it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you look doing it" philosophy.
I am true to my word
I said initially the new format would not deter me from responding to myself...it's clear I haven't been slowed down any...yet. I don't know if "ct[not m]" has any tricks up his sleeve to combat my style, but if the pace at which the other glitches are being corrected is any indication, I'm pretty confident I won't be stopped (1/2 j/k...how's that for Internet shorthand, eh?).
I can't currently confirm this...
b/c this computer has been stripped of all fun accessories, like even the most basic Microsoft games, but it also kind of reminds me of the little flag you use in "Minesweeper" to designate squares that have mines hidden underneath.
by Cutthemullet on Mar 4, 2007 10:00 PM PST up reply actions
1?
none/1? Has someone figured out how to give one of my frivolous self-replies a positive rating? Now I'm extremely confused.
I'll save myself the next self-reply by saying that I predict the "1" will disappear by the time this post is, um, published (hey...if I have to even go through the motions of previewing a post, I reserve myself the right to say that I am "publishing" a post...the carpal-tunnel-inducing process of making that extra, especially arduous click grants me at least that privilege.
This one's going to have me down to "none/-2", I can feel it.
by Cutthemullet on Mar 4, 2007 10:13 PM PST up reply actions
I think maybe ct is testing?
Or you're obsessing, or something... ;)
oh man
now they're ions or something...positive and negative charges AFTER the numbers...although they're a bit too centrally located in relation to the numbers, they should be superscripts...still, this is mind-blowing. ct clearly is exercising godlike powers on this site right now, and his efforts just might make a convert out of me.
by Cutthemullet on Mar 4, 2007 10:29 PM PST up reply actions
hey...
shouldn't "tunnel" have been crossed out there, due to the hyphens on either side (the first of which, upon reflection, shouldn't actually have been there)? Hmm...
<testing>
1
carpaltunnel
carpal-tunnel-inducing
interesting...also, my "<testing>" disappeared where that large space is.
ok, I'll try it again...my "testing in brackets" disappeared where that large space is.
by Cutthemullet on Mar 4, 2007 10:39 PM PST up reply actions
I assure you...
the <tests> disappeared...in the preview.
by Cutthemullet on Mar 4, 2007 10:40 PM PST up reply actions
Thanks very much...
...for all the details!
I'm not sure how/why this happened, by the way, but when I posted my long comment ("Hear, Hear!" to Sal) above, I got the old-fashioned comment screen, with options to Preview or Post (but not to blockquote/link/etc.) ... but now it's back to the new arrangement. One thing I really like about the new format is that it actually previews your post in context; you see your post properly indented instead of just sprawled across the screen -- from a compulsive previewer, thanks for that!
by Loon from Left on Mar 4, 2007 11:34 PM PST up reply actions
IE 7
I'm using IE 7 with screen reader JFW 8.0 if that helps any. I noticed that headings were inserted too. That already helps out a lot. Thanks to whoever did it.
...are people too scairt to post a new DLD?
I'm not sure about using this n/t convention...
[gasp]
The f'in autorefresh popup cuts my name off to JENNI on my non-widescreen monitor.
[throws chair]
Slightly crazy long-term idea:
At one point, in re: the Preview-Post concerns, Blez mentioned peoples' periodic interest in a way to edit their comments. Preview doesn't solve that now any more than it did when it was optional, but if we do want a way to solve it, it seems it could be done without the content-related problems. The code might be a bear, so I'm not even pretending it could be implemented now or soon, but: what if it were possible to do very limited editing of your own comments, e.g. changing format (you can change words you want to delete to "strike-through" for instance, so they'll still be there, but everyone can see you want to get rid of them) and adding content that would perhaps automatically show up in a special "changed" font. Thus, "I hurt Rich Harden" becomes "I hueart Rich Harden," thereby retaining the context for Nico's witty reply but preventing everyone on the entire site from descending on the poor poster's house and tearing him limb from limb. (The poster, not Harden).
How can I evaluate the format when it has a lot..
of bugs that will be fixed? I'll tell you one thing, I HATE buggy software, and that's what we have right now, so you draw your own conclusions.
What were the problems with the last version? I didn't seem to have any.
Damn kids are trampling your lawn, too, eh?
{waves cane}
Have another slug of BMSS. :)
It keeps ya regular.
I don't see that big of a difference
But why do you have to hit expand everytime you enter a new diary? Is there a way to leave it on permanently?
Should be a checkbox...
...labeled "(Always)" next to the radio buttons for "Expand" and "Shrink" and "Hide." Hit expand, then hit always, and that should turn it on forever. (But I do think expand should be the default.)
by Loon from Left on Mar 5, 2007 5:01 PM PST up reply actions
I might have the same question as IM4Oakgal
I already HAVE mine set to "Expand" and "Always"... but when I post a comment it first shows up as "shrunk" until I hit refresh.
I check always...
but when I go to the next diary it shows in the shrink format. It annoys me to have to keep clicking this and that. But I really like the easy Bold,italic, block quote buttons.
try going to your profile preferences
that what i had to do to make it stick.
good to know (t)
not. Ok, give me a strike, or a negative rating, or revoke the positive ones ct gave me above, whatever.
by Cutthemullet on Mar 5, 2007 11:35 PM PST up reply actions
but...
there actually WAS text, so I fucked up. On the bright side, I think I can save my treasured positive ratings because of it.
by Cutthemullet on Mar 5, 2007 11:37 PM PST up reply actions
Think it has anything to do...
with reaching a certain amount of replies in a subthread? That's what has seemed to cause my comments to collapse in the past few days.
by Cutthemullet on Mar 5, 2007 11:34 PM PST up reply actions
I have a greasemonkey script...
... that will reposition the comments block farther to the left, if there's someone willing to host it. It modifies the site CSS a bit, and it doesn't seem to have any catastrophic effects.
It doesn't seem to break the posting of this comment either, so that's good.
any other firefox users
wish the [new] was down by the username and not up by the subject?
when you do a "find" for [new], it takes you to the new comment, but you can only see the subject line, so you have to manually scroll down to see the rest of the comment. if the [new] was down by the username, you'd be able to read the entire comment without scrolling down...
Yeah...
That's been there since before the recent changes though.
Hehe, but this thread has been even more of a pain because everyone keeps typing [new] in their comments!
Yeah, who knew what my new gnu knew?
FYI...
the denizens of Lookout Landing are currently weighing in on whether or not they like the "new AN" (more precisely, whether or not they'd want LL to adopt it themselves). Well, at least some people are...out of the impressive 9 votes recorded s far, a resounding 55% have chosen "No", while a mere 22% say "yes". Out of the remaining 23%, 22% are ambivalent or indifferent...but what I'm most interested in is the 1% that has been forever lost to the inadequacies of estimating percentages. Or lost until the tenth person votes, you can decide for yourself.
No yellow bar in the left margin this morning!
Yay! :-D
Vertical spacing looks much better (maybe also because the horizontal rules are back?)...
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