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Calling B*llsh*t on Billy Beane

The demands of real life have kept me from AN for about a week, and now I've spent the better part of this evening reading the zillion hot warm stove diaries I missed during that time. Most of them are too old to reply to, but I see that I made NSJ's list of posters who need to write more diaries, so here you go.

Nearly all of the discussions of the team's future are centered around the idea that the team has come to a point of major decision: either we can contend in 2008, or we can't so we may as well "blow up" the team. Here at AN, the debates rage on about how much to blow up, whether we can contend after all, how various moves by the Angels affect our decision, etc, etc. It's all we talk about now.

Star-divide

It's no mystery where this idea came from. It's straight from Billy Beane himself. As quoted by Tom Verducci in Sports Illustrated, Beane said,

We're at a fork in the road. ... We're either going forward and going for it or cutting it down and rebuilding. There is no middle ground in our market. When we hit the bottom, small market teams like us don't bounce."

Now, wait a minute. Since when is there no middle ground in our market? That's not what Beane has said before. Just last year he was telling us exactly the opposite.  He said he believes in reloading, not rebuilding. For as long as he's been the GM he's always said he believes that the A's need to be competitive year after year. Indeed, he has even cited the team's particular market situation as a reason for that.

So why has he suddenly changed his tune? Why are the A's now a candidate for a Marlins style fire sale? Is it just because of one losing season? In the SI article, all Beane offers for a reason is that he's "monitoring the health and rehabilitation status of several key players". The article names Chavez, Duchscherer, Harden, and Kotsay. How does that make any sense?  I'm not saying the health of these guys won't make a big difference to the team's success in 2008 (well, the first three anyway...), but what exactly does Beane expect to learn about Rich Harden between Nov 7 and Dec 3 that's going to tell him whether he needs to blow up the team?

It's remarkable to me how quickly and thoroughly we've all bought this line, both the fans here on AN and all commentators throughout the sports media. Has no one noticed that this is a complete 180-degree change in philosophy by Beane? Are we so enamored of the idea of rebuilding and "blowing up" the team when you can't contend, that when Beane -- for the first time ever -- shows accord with the idea we just push away his entire history and breathe a sigh of relief that he has returned to the fold of orthodoxy?

The more I think about this, the more fishy it seems. You know what? I don't think Beane has changed his philosophy at all. I think he still believes in reloading, not rebuilding. I think he still believes you make the team as competitive as you can year after year, rather than take your best shot at the World Series before breaking up the team for a new batch of prospects. I think this new line about a "fork in the road" and "no middle ground" is grade-A Billy Beane bullshit.

So why would Beane say such a thing?  Two reasons come quickly to mind.

First, the winter meetings. Beane loves to trade players, regardless of whether his team is "contending" or "rebuilding". He has always said no player is off the table and he's always open to any trade suggestion that will make his team better.

But Beane has a reputation, and it has gotten harder for him to make good trades. No GM wants to be caught having made a bad trade with Billy Beane. With another GM you might take a chance, but because of Billy's reputation, there's a stigma attached to being swindled by Beane that isn't suffered when one makes an equally bad trade with, say, Jim Hendry.

Beane's greatest successes have always been with the unfamiliar names -- minor players he's gotten as "throw-ins" in larger trades. But other GMs are wary of that now. If Beane is talking to some other GM about, say, Blanton, and he asks about two obscure minor leaguers that the GM has never even heard of, that GM is going to say "Whoa, who are those guys and why is Billy Beane so interested in them?" By the same token, if out of nowhere Beane starts showing a willingness to trade Dan Haren, GMs are going to ask themselves, "Why would he trade away his star pitcher? Is there something wrong with him? What does Billy Beane know that I don't know?"

I don't think there's anything wrong with Dan Haren. But maybe Beane senses the possibility that he's overvalued. He wants to see what offers are available and if one is good enough that it could improve the team, he'll go for it. Not because the team can't contend, but because he's always open to any trade that might make the team better.

Beane's new line about rebuilding gives him valuable cover in these conversations. If he asks about some obscure low-level prospects, it's just because he needs to restock his depleted farm system. If he offers up a good player like Haren, Blanton, Ellis or Street, it's because he's blowing up the team. If Kenny Williams or Omar Minaya is on the verge of making a big trade with Beane, instead of worrying that he's about to be swindled, he can take smug satisfaction in the idea that Beane's team is in the dumps so it's time to cash in on the fire sale.

The second reason is for the players. How must Joe Blanton have felt in the second half of the season, seeing his name thrown around in so many trade rumors? For that matter, how must the other guys on the team have felt, seeing that Beane was willing to give up one of their best starters? Was he giving up on the team?

This line about the "fork in the road" makes it possible for everyone to feel reassured. All the guys on the trading block are up there not because Beane doesn't value them, but because they're good players who shouldn't be wasted on a team that can't contend. More important, if it turns out Beane doesn't hear any offers he likes and all the players don't get traded, then the message will be that we've decided we can contend after all, so everyone can take that extra boost of confidence into the new season.

And what's the downside for Beane for pushing this line? None that I can think of. I think it's pure win-win bullshit. The fans are buying it, and the press is buying it. Will the other GMs buy it, too?  I hope so.

--

Three other thoughts about the diaries I read tonight. They're unrelated to the main topic, but it's my diary. You can think of them as special bonus topics.

One. Someone mentioned the idea that teams don't trade within the division. I think this is a canard. It's easy for us to believe it here in Oakland because it so happens that two of the other three in our division won't trade with us, but I don't think it has anything to do with being division rivals.

Some GMs just won't trade with Billy Beane. I believe Bavasi is one of them, and many sports journalists seem to agree. Bavasi made one trade with Beane, in 1999. In his last major trade as GM of the Angels, he sent Omar Olivares and Randy Velarde to the A's at the trading deadline. Since he took over in Seattle, Bavasi has done no trades with Beane, and as far as I know they've never even discussed any.

Some GMs trade a lot, some don't. Bavasi trades a little but not a lot. Bill Stoneman hardly traded at all with anyone, so it's no shock that he never traded with Beane. Maybe the new guy will be different. I don't know. But I don't think it has anything to do with being in the same division.

Two. I see that the debate about the team's budgetary process for player payroll rages on. The next time someone interviews Beane, can we please have some serious questions about this? Unlike so many topics we're tempted to ask Beane about, this is one where he could actually provide some meaningful information. Obviously he's not going to come out and say "I'm not allowed to spend more than $75 million this year," but he could shed a lot of light on the process that would make our discussions here more informed. How fixed is his budget? Is it directly tied to revenues? How separate are player salaries from other player development expenses? If there's a target budget for the year, how much flexibility does he have to exceed it if an opportunity warrants it? Conversely, if there is a target budget for the year but the opportunities really aren't there, does he still spend the money the best he can, or does he prefer put it back into the company, whether to retain as capital or distribute as dividends?

I'm not saying he's going to tell us all the details about how the company is run, nor give out any real financial figures, but it seems to me there's quite a bit he'd be happy to discuss if only someone were to ask the right questions.

Three. Our former interest in Lastings Milledge. Yeah, I wonder if that was bullshit, too. Since when is Beane interested in guys above the radar? He's notorious for expressing phony interest in popular names in order to better hide his interest in the under-the-radar guys he truly wants. Not just in trades, but in the draft, too. Remember Nick Swisher.

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A couple thoughts

First:  I don't know where you got the idea that Beane hasn't had any recent success with undervalued throw in players.  You can make an almost indefensible argument that Jack Cust was the second best DH in baseball last year and Chad Gaudin has better raw stuff the Danny Haren; both were under the radar cash buy outs or trades who could be considered the same type of throw in player that Ellis was.

Last: I just can't buy a conspiracy theory right now.  This isn't the '06 team like so many people on AN want to believe.  The A's have major offense and pitching holes and they just wont have any impact players to fill them besides Barton until '09 at the earliest.

Haren and Blanton are at their peak value right now.  Ether you trade them now and be competitive again as early as '09, or hope at a 85 win season next year (after Harden is injured again and all of AN has a massive annurism trying to figure out why Kotsay is still batting in the two-hole), and then be less competitive in two years when Haren and Blanton no longer have the value to trade for a pitcher like Kershaw.

There is no way this team is competitive next year without another pitcher to keep DiNardo out of the rotation, a new center fielder to keep Kotsay from hitting in the 2-hole, a new shortstop to keep Crosby from having a fourth rookie year in batting at the plate, and another right handed hitting power bat.

by Threepwood XX on Dec 3, 2007 1:59 AM PST   0 recs

Huh?

Did I say Beane hasn't had any recent success with undervalued players recently?  I sure didn't mean to.

I also didn't mean to suggest any conspiracy theory.  I meant to suggest that Beane has fed a load of bull to the press, and not for the first time.  Conspiracy of one, I guess.

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 3, 2007 3:27 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

I agree

I agree with most of what your saying. Over the past couple of months I have watched many fans flip out about the idea of trading Haren/Blanton or any of the pitching. I have also listened to A's fans say how good the team could be if we just add Bonds or an Aaron Rowand or Andruw Jones.

the fact remains in this current free agent market there are little alternatives for any team. The trade market is as ripe and ready for the taken as its ever going to be. Haren/Blanton are definatly overrated and compared to Hudson/Mulder are nowhere near their talent at the same times in their career. Beane knows this and is ready to take advantage of the current market for them. If Billy traded Hudson/Mulder and knew we would still compete the next year or the year after, he must feel the same way about Haren/Blanton/Street. The fact is if all three are dealt and the A's get a combination of lets say eleven players of substantial talent he has achieved two major goals.

1.Replenish the farm system with star talent.
2.Build a current core that can compete with the Angels and is cheap enough to lay the next foundation ala 2000 style.

Lets say the eleven players are
1.Hughes
2.Tabata
3.Clippard
4.Betances
5.Kemp
6.Hu
7.Meloan
8.Elbert
9.Adam Miller
10.Brad Snyder
11.Ben Fransisco

The A's fill the minor leagues with Tabata, Clippard, Betances, Meloan, Elbert, Snyder and Fransisco. The big league club would look something like

Compare it to 2004 when everyone stated the team would not compete after trading Hudson/Mulder
C-Suzuki > Kendall
1B-Swisher > Johnson/Hatteberg
2B-Ellis < Ellis
3B-Chavez = Chavez
SS-Crosby/Hu > Crosby/Scutaro
LF-Cust > Kielty
CF-Kemp > Kotsay
RF-Buck > Swisher
DH-Barton > Durazo/Hatteberg

SP-Harden <Zito <br>SP-Hughes = Haren  
SP-Miller = Blanton
SP-Gaudin > Harden/Glynn/Yabu
SP-Duke > Saarloos

Closer-Brown = Dotel/Street

Much better overrall talent and what was a weak minor league system now becomes a plus.

by tankormike on Dec 3, 2007 5:34 AM PST   0 recs

ummmm....you have three RF's in that outfield

Kemp cannot play center---he doesn't even do a decent job in right! Basically, any ball hit into that outfield could theoretically become a triple...

by kitoko on Dec 3, 2007 7:05 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Okay

A)It is more of an example.
B)Kemp has played 45 games in CF out of 144.

by tankormike on Dec 3, 2007 7:55 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

i coulda sworn ellis got better, not worse

also, kielty wasn't a starter, if i remember right, hughes doesn't quite equal haren (yet), miller definitely doesn't equal blanton (more like harden, because of the arm injuries), and brown is nowhere near dotel or street (but i'm sure someone is gonna pull up some sort of obscure statistic to the contrary).

"He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Dec 3, 2007 2:03 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

He's actually a lot like Dotel

It's the Dotel/Street comparison which is the problem there, because right now Street is much, much better than either of them. I'm a big Andrew Brown booster, but there's no question about who the #1 reliever on the team is right now.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 3, 2007 3:00 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I also like Brown

He looks much thinner than when he was on "Amos 'n Andy" back in the 1950s.

I was at Safeco last summer when he pitched against the Mariners.  He had those fans muttering, so I was doubly impressed.  I also saw him (impressive) in home games.

Could he be a closer?  I think you have to "want it" to be a closer.

"I never predict anything, and I never will." Paul Gascoigne, English footballer

by One won lost won on Dec 3, 2007 3:57 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Its a comparison to 2005

Its a comparison to 2005.

Ellis had a monster year in 2005, I dont see him having another year batting 316 and an 816 ops.

In 2005 Kielty had the majority of the starts in LF.

line 2005 OAK 116 377 55 99 20 0 10 57 50 67 3 2 .263 .350 .395 .746  

Hughes could probably do better than Harens first year with the A's.

2005 OAK 34 34 14 12 0 3 0 217.0 212 101 90 26 53 163 3.73 1.22 .255

The comparison to Dotel/Street was because Dotel blew a ton of games before getting injured and leaving Street the closer.

by tankormike on Dec 3, 2007 3:44 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

didn't ellis

have his best power year this year though? what did he ops this year?

"He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Dec 3, 2007 9:45 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

His OPS was much better in 2005

777 and in 2005 861

by tankormike on Dec 4, 2007 3:53 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

aight
thanks for the clarification
"He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Dec 5, 2007 8:00 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Agree with your basic premise

I've been calling bullshit on Beane in the comments, so I'm glad you wrote this diary.  I believe Beane is using the health excuse as a cover to allow him to explore trade options while not really committing to actually make any trades.  It would not surprise me to see all three of Haren, Blanton, and Street traded, and it would not surprise me see to none of the three traded.  Beane has particular players in mind from each team, and he will not trade unless he gets them.

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Dec 3, 2007 6:38 AM PST   0 recs

+1
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Dec 3, 2007 7:43 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

While it's possible, I guess, that he's changed

his views, I've felt the whole "either/or" thing was more or less a load of hooey from the get-go. When did Billy Beane turn into George W. Bush? With us or against us? Contending or rebuilding? WTF?

I think you're quite right about the psychological impact of what he's saying. The key here is that by creating the perception that a firesale is on, he gives up a little negotiating leverage in return for getting a lot more offers to sift through. He may have concluded that the key to trading is not to swindle one GM in particular, but simply to take advantage of the natural effects of the "auction winners' curse."

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 3, 2007 8:17 AM PST   0 recs

I don't really take his public comments seriously

and the "wait and see how the injuries look" stuff is clearly bs. But, I also think that "go for it" or "blow it up" are much better options as the team stands than some middle road. So, I think it's pretty plausible that that's his mindset just because it makes sense to me, rather than because he said it.

I too would like to see the payroll Q answered.

by mikeA on Dec 3, 2007 9:26 AM PST   0 recs

some ESPN commenter?

dude, Kenny Mayne is not just "some ESPN commenter."  There is no better.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 10:25 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

I got it off

Hollinger's power rankings. Don't know anything about Kenny Mayne saying that.

The Warriors are so hot they set the KeyArena scoreboard on FIRE!-some espn commenter

by mikeA on Dec 4, 2007 10:26 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

ah

On the Sunday night SC he made several hilarious connections between the Warriors-Sonics game and the fire at Key Arena.  He's from Washington, so he referenced some Seattle fire from the 19th century, among other things....

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 10:32 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

I come to a different conclusion

Like you and BC53 and mikeA and many others, I think Billy's winter words have been disinformation pure and simple.  But I conclude that he's already decided to tear things down, with one eye on the Angels and the other on Fremont circa 2011.  To the extent there's any truth in the "wait and see what the health fairy brings" line, I think it's only about whether the dominoes fall now, or in June.  But fall they will.

You are groovy flowers in a garden where I am privileged to stand and share a few moments with you. --Lord Buckley

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Dec 3, 2007 9:47 AM PST   0 recs

Stark's latest

Since we're talking about public statements...

Reportedly Beane has asked for 2 of the Yankees big 3, 2 of Boston's big 3 and both Gomez and Mertainez from the Mets in a deal for Haren. Then take a piece by Slusser last week that says Beane expects as much for Blanton as he does for Haren.

When teams balk at Beane's asking price for Haren he can then slip in Blanton, offer a "concession" that Blanton isn't quite as good as Haren and therefore lower his price at the top end of the deal and clean up on the backside of the deal.

Stark link

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 3, 2007 9:51 AM PST   0 recs

Anyone who still thinks the A's should be working

the free agent market, take a gander at that "all-free-agent team" list.

What a pile. That team would win like 60 games.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 3, 2007 10:14 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Hopefully

you wouldn't have to sign everyone on that list to field your team.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 3, 2007 10:30 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Hm
"Hopefully you wouldn't have to sign ANYone on that list to field your team."

Corrected.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 3, 2007 10:47 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

I fully agree...

and with regards to health, guys like Chavez, Crosby, Harden, and Kotsay have little to no value now but rest assured if they play healthy and with some productivty Beane will look to deal them by end of July.  Perhaps a guy like Kotsay could dealt in a package with Blanton/Street/Haren to free up salary for boosting the scouting department.

by Miggy on Dec 3, 2007 9:53 AM PST   0 recs

I think you've call sm*rtsh*t.
The meaning of life is not so much 'found,' as it is 'made.' --Opus

by The Dogfather on Dec 3, 2007 12:02 PM PST   0 recs

I disagree ...

I think, just as you do and should take what BB is saying now with a grain of salt, you should also take his past comments with a grain of salt.

Things ARE different now -- in at least two very important ways.

  1. This team as assembled and stocked in the farm system is going to get worse before it gets better. Aside from any hopes of Chavvy and Harden getting healthy, there's really only one significant player on the MLB roster that I think there is a good chance of meaningful improvement over 2007.

That player is Chad Gaudin. Other than that, I think we've seen more or less the best we're going to see from the rest of our roster.

Travis Buck and Nick Swisher are good players -- but they don't really have any upside beyond that. They could improve a little, but not a whole lot. Furthermore, as they age, any small improvements will likely be offset by defensive declines.

Haren is a very good pitcher, an average #1 or a high end #2, I'm not taking anything away from him, but 2007 was likely his career year.

Blanton could continue doing what he's been doing for a long time -- eating a ton of slightly above average innings every year. I don't think anyone really expects anything more than that out of him.

I think Ellis can maintain his 2007 performance for a couple more years -- but only one of them is contracted to be with the A's and while resigning him would probably be a good deal in the first year or two, after that, well how many FA deals ever look good after the first couple?

Suzuki actually posted the second highest IsoP at any level of his career in the Majors last year ... I think that's due for a correction -- though his BA and OBP should come up a bit over the years.

Jack Cust was a great story and a great player last year. He should continue to be a solid contributor. By any metric, though Cust had an aberrational year. He's a unique player -- but not unique enough to sustain that BABIP.

Barton, of course, is going to continue to be a good player -- but he's also very much in the Swisher/Buck low risk, limited upside mold.

Beyond that, we don't have a single prospect with the realistic potential to be an impact player above Kane County -- meaning they are at least two years off.

Any improvements over the next couple of years will have to come from outside the organization and, unless Chavvy and/or Harden get healthy, there are plenty of reasons to doubt whether the team can contend without those improvements.

  1. Which brings me to my second point, the market has changed. Teams have gotten smarter. There are still undervalued players out there -- but they come with more risk and less reward than they used to. Large external improvements are not going to be available without breaking the bank. I wouldn't count on the team breaking the bank anytime soon.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 12:09 PM PST   0 recs

Formatting... wow

I agree with the calls on Haren, Buck, Barton and Swisher. I think you were a little harsh on Suzuki (he just turned 24 after all).

And I'm curious to know how you're defining "impact" player. Better than good?

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 3, 2007 12:27 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Maybe I am being a bit harsh to Zooks ...

but scouts don't like him and he outperformed statistical expectations this year, so I can't feel too optimistic about it ... but who knows ... hopefully ...

I don't think the definition matters that much ... by impact player I probably meant better than good ... but I don't think changing the definition to simply good would change anything ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 1:01 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Definitions

Just that some folks think "impact" = star player.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 3, 2007 1:22 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Harsh?

Barton has an IsoP of .157 in the minors. That augurs well for him continuing to develop additional home-run power, which is really the only thing between him and genuine offensive excellence. He started to show it this year, with 18 jacks.

Buck doesn't have the same harbingers, but he's still pretty young himself. He seems like a guy who could easily be a .300/.400/.400-type hitter, which is pretty excellent even for a corner outfielder, and great if he learns to play CF.

Swisher's had two seasons such that if he combines the high points of each (power hitting in '06, OBP in '07), he's an All-Star. He's also already an excellent defender at two positions.

None of them is at an age where defensive decline is at all likely. Typically defense skills start to erode around the early thirties.

I see a lot of room for improvement among those guys.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 3, 2007 12:36 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I like Barton ...

don't get me wrong. I think he can be a .900 OPS player. In fact, I think he already is a .900 OPS player.

Defensive decline tends to correlate pretty well with increased power -- which is certainly where Buck and Barton have the most room for growth. BTW, you're also not disagreeing with me on Buck. He's a good player and you're not arguing that he's going to get any better -- which was my point. I also don't think there's any reason, whatsoever, to believe he can be a good enough center fielder to matter.

Swisher's improved OBP in 2007 was almost entirely tied to his improved BA ... I wouldn't be surprised if he improved slightly, bouncing back to his 2006 levels ... but that's about it.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 12:58 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Hm... I'm unconvinced

Defensive decline tends to correlate pretty well with increased power

Link?

This sounds like a serious correlation/causation issue here. I'm sorry, but I just find it totally implausible that an improvement in Barton's power, at the age of 22, is somehow inextricably linked to a decline in his ability to play first.

Re: Swish, I know the numbers are not fully going to bear me out here, but... he was so visibly not hitting at his full potential last year. There were times when he was "on," and there were other times when he was falling over from swinging so hard. I mean, maybe he is what he is, but I'd like to think he could improve that aspect of his game a little as he gets older and wiser.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 3, 2007 1:43 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Probably guilty as charged ...

though changing one's physical makeup is usually an important aspect of adding power ... those changes in body makeup usually result in a loss of speed ...

Swish could certainly improve a bit ... I know you've got a man crush on him and that's cool.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 2:00 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

focus on one tool

it's not explainable in a stat...if someone is trying to get better at hitting, they will focus more on that than fielding. it happens. it could be part of the reason, but more likely a coincidence.

"He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Dec 3, 2007 2:07 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

harbingers

So long as none of our players exhibit hardengers (or would that be hardangers?), I'll feel fine.

People here actually know what a trireme is. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 3, 2007 1:11 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Swisher

Honestly, I'm content with Swisher even if he doesn't improve much. Right now he's a good player, general all-around skills, flexible defensively, great personality, signed at a good price for several years.  That works for me.

Give me a team full of Swishers and I don't need any stars.

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 3, 2007 1:38 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I don't disagree ...

but unless you think this is already a 92-95 win team ... we need improvement somewhere ... I don't see it happening internally is the point.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 1:43 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Improvement somewhere

Replace all the non-Swishers with Swishers.  I want to see a lineup of nine Nick Swishers.

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 3, 2007 1:48 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Any room for a Hatteberg or two in your lineup?
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 1:53 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Cincy's shopping him!
Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 3, 2007 1:58 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

my god, that would be a loud team
People here actually know what a trireme is. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 3, 2007 2:04 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

YEEEEEHAAA!
"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 3, 2007 2:06 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

aka

The Oaktoon Method of Political Success.

The Warriors are so hot they set the KeyArena scoreboard on FIRE!-some espn commenter

by mikeA on Dec 3, 2007 2:28 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Can you imagine a dugout of nine Swishers

after one of them hit a home run?

It would take like half an inning for all the strange dances to die down.

Not to mention they'd be hitting home runs pretty frequently.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 3, 2007 3:01 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Yes, I can

That would be friggin' awesome!

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 3, 2007 3:58 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

That's the Swisher that doesn't go into

a 'swing for the hills' approach when he gets in a slump, right?

by OldhamA on Dec 4, 2007 12:45 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

very harsh imo

I agree that Gaudin is likely to get better, and that Haren/Blanton/Swisher will be stable, but likely will not see more than marginal improvement beyond 2007 numbers. I also agree that Cust should see some regression (maybe OPS 850 instead of over 900)

I disagree with you about Barton and Buck. It's very difficult to look at a 22 year old like Barton and project into his 27/28/29 year old seasons (likely his peak with the A's). Buck probably has 1-2 seasons of development in him as well, seeing as he skipped all the way up from AA and is only 6 months older than Gaudin.

Actually, the nicest thing about Buck and Barton is that their biggest weaknesses are on the defensive side. If they can work to the point where they're league average at their positions, they'll be very valuable to the future of the club.

You're also very hard on Blanton's year– "eating a ton of slightly above average innings." He had as good a season, if not slightly better, than Haren. He was 11th in FIP in all of baseball (Haren was 17th).

Omar Minaya is Jim Bowden's beeatch.

by rebus on Dec 3, 2007 1:41 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

It's difficult, sure ....

but unless we're going to throw up our hands and declare the regular season a crap shoot too, we have to make projections, believe in them and plan based on them. I think Barton is a good player and will continue to be ... I expect him to post an OPS right around 900 every season he is healthy for the next six years. That's an optimistic projection.

I like a lot of our players. We have a lot of good players -- Swish, Buck, Cust, Barton, Ellis, Chavez, Haren, Blanton and Gaudin are all good players. Haren is a very good player and I think Barton will be too.

My comments should not be taken as an insult to any of these guys.

I'm just not sure that the team as a whole is really good enough to compete, despite these guys being good players and I don't see it improving on its own over the next 2-3 years.

I also don't see any real value in fielding a team that's just good enough to win the NL Central ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 1:53 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I would be very surprised if Barton

opsed .900 this year.

The Warriors are so hot they set the KeyArena scoreboard on FIRE!-some espn commenter

by mikeA on Dec 3, 2007 1:54 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Thanks!!!!

Now I don't have to feel like some horrible pessimist!

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 2:00 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I would be too, actually

In terms of "component OPS," Barton would probably need more or less the following:

300 points of batting average, times two
200 points of isolated slugging
100 points of isolated OBP

to OPS .900.

I don't see that happening before he grows into his full power and has a thorough understanding of MLB pitching; i.e. around age 24 or so (2010).

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 3, 2007 2:04 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Well, the A's won the AL West in 2006

Chavez was his same disappointing, yet OK self. Crosby sucked, as usual. Kendall was better than in 2007, obviously, but he wasn't so good that he is irreplaceable by Suzuki. Kotsay was also better than in 2007, but again, like Kendall, he was already well on the path to being crap.

Kendall has already been replaced. Kotsay should be replaceable too, as long as Beane is willing to admit that Kotsay was a mistake, and a sunk cost.

Harden was pretty much a non-factor in 2006.

The key is for everyone else on the team not to get injured like they did in 2007.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Dec 3, 2007 2:27 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

yeah, but the Angels are vastly better in 2008...

and if the get Cabrera they are really loaded for the next couple of seasons.  I would rather they save up $$ to improve scouting, replenish the famr, and get ready to contend in Fremont.

by Miggy on Dec 3, 2007 2:55 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Chavez was better in 2006 ...

and, more importantly, there was 52% more of him.

I'll agree that Suzuki behind the dish and whoever we play in Center will adequately replace Kotsay and Kendall, circa 2006.

Ignoring everything else that has changed (Frank Thomas, Barry Zito, a depleted bullpen), we'd still be left with a team that sported a Pythagorean record of 85-77. Don't get me wrong -- I think this team is a bit better than that -- but it won't matter if the Angels win 95+ games ... which they are a pretty decent bet to do.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 3:35 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I suppose I'm in the minority on this

but I'd be happy with an 85-77 team.  I just like to win as many games as we can.  Last season was a failure because we had a lousy record, not because the Angels had a better one.  I'd rather lose the division with 90-72 than win it with 80-82.

I don't want to throw in the towel on the 2008 season just because we expect the Angels to win 95 games.

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 3, 2007 3:57 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

In an ideal world, I wouldn't want to either ...

but if we throw in the towel for 2008, we could end up having some pretty sick teams come 2010 and 2011 ... if we don't we'll likely be able to pull together decent but descending teams for the next 2-3 years before we have to start over from scratch -- which will leave us a much deeper hole to climb out of.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 4:02 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I think Beane's more conservative than believed

I'm calling Oakeshott on Billy Beane.

People here actually know what a trireme is. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 3, 2007 2:06 PM PST   0 recs

I'm calling balls hat

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 3, 2007 2:11 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I sometimes wonder if BB is really Asian...

his affinity for cheapness and bait and switch tactics....maybe he was a car salesman in College?

At any rate, much of what mdl posted makes sense. I wonder if Beane is drawing out everyong to peruse Blanton and Haren as to gauge what other GM's perceived assessment of their own roster values. From their Beane can then do a dog and pony show, only to ask for his real interested trade with something he perceives as similar trade value, all the while not really wanting to trade Haren or Blanton unless some ridiculous offer a la Mulder trade comes up.

"how do you strain your oblique while staring at strike 3?" by slyrus

by ST on Dec 3, 2007 4:20 PM PST   0 recs

I... can't believe I just read that

WTF?

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 3, 2007 4:27 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

???

Well, if that's the logic, let's ask the question that naturally follows:

Is Beane a lousy driver?

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 3, 2007 5:06 PM PST to parent up   0 recs