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Calling B*llsh*t on Billy Beane

The demands of real life have kept me from AN for about a week, and now I've spent the better part of this evening reading the zillion hot warm stove diaries I missed during that time. Most of them are too old to reply to, but I see that I made NSJ's list of posters who need to write more diaries, so here you go.

Nearly all of the discussions of the team's future are centered around the idea that the team has come to a point of major decision: either we can contend in 2008, or we can't so we may as well "blow up" the team. Here at AN, the debates rage on about how much to blow up, whether we can contend after all, how various moves by the Angels affect our decision, etc, etc. It's all we talk about now.

Star-divide

It's no mystery where this idea came from. It's straight from Billy Beane himself. As quoted by Tom Verducci in Sports Illustrated, Beane said,

We're at a fork in the road. ... We're either going forward and going for it or cutting it down and rebuilding. There is no middle ground in our market. When we hit the bottom, small market teams like us don't bounce."

Now, wait a minute. Since when is there no middle ground in our market? That's not what Beane has said before. Just last year he was telling us exactly the opposite.  He said he believes in reloading, not rebuilding. For as long as he's been the GM he's always said he believes that the A's need to be competitive year after year. Indeed, he has even cited the team's particular market situation as a reason for that.

So why has he suddenly changed his tune? Why are the A's now a candidate for a Marlins style fire sale? Is it just because of one losing season? In the SI article, all Beane offers for a reason is that he's "monitoring the health and rehabilitation status of several key players". The article names Chavez, Duchscherer, Harden, and Kotsay. How does that make any sense?  I'm not saying the health of these guys won't make a big difference to the team's success in 2008 (well, the first three anyway...), but what exactly does Beane expect to learn about Rich Harden between Nov 7 and Dec 3 that's going to tell him whether he needs to blow up the team?

It's remarkable to me how quickly and thoroughly we've all bought this line, both the fans here on AN and all commentators throughout the sports media. Has no one noticed that this is a complete 180-degree change in philosophy by Beane? Are we so enamored of the idea of rebuilding and "blowing up" the team when you can't contend, that when Beane -- for the first time ever -- shows accord with the idea we just push away his entire history and breathe a sigh of relief that he has returned to the fold of orthodoxy?

The more I think about this, the more fishy it seems. You know what? I don't think Beane has changed his philosophy at all. I think he still believes in reloading, not rebuilding. I think he still believes you make the team as competitive as you can year after year, rather than take your best shot at the World Series before breaking up the team for a new batch of prospects. I think this new line about a "fork in the road" and "no middle ground" is grade-A Billy Beane bullshit.

So why would Beane say such a thing?  Two reasons come quickly to mind.

First, the winter meetings. Beane loves to trade players, regardless of whether his team is "contending" or "rebuilding". He has always said no player is off the table and he's always open to any trade suggestion that will make his team better.

But Beane has a reputation, and it has gotten harder for him to make good trades. No GM wants to be caught having made a bad trade with Billy Beane. With another GM you might take a chance, but because of Billy's reputation, there's a stigma attached to being swindled by Beane that isn't suffered when one makes an equally bad trade with, say, Jim Hendry.

Beane's greatest successes have always been with the unfamiliar names -- minor players he's gotten as "throw-ins" in larger trades. But other GMs are wary of that now. If Beane is talking to some other GM about, say, Blanton, and he asks about two obscure minor leaguers that the GM has never even heard of, that GM is going to say "Whoa, who are those guys and why is Billy Beane so interested in them?" By the same token, if out of nowhere Beane starts showing a willingness to trade Dan Haren, GMs are going to ask themselves, "Why would he trade away his star pitcher? Is there something wrong with him? What does Billy Beane know that I don't know?"

I don't think there's anything wrong with Dan Haren. But maybe Beane senses the possibility that he's overvalued. He wants to see what offers are available and if one is good enough that it could improve the team, he'll go for it. Not because the team can't contend, but because he's always open to any trade that might make the team better.

Beane's new line about rebuilding gives him valuable cover in these conversations. If he asks about some obscure low-level prospects, it's just because he needs to restock his depleted farm system. If he offers up a good player like Haren, Blanton, Ellis or Street, it's because he's blowing up the team. If Kenny Williams or Omar Minaya is on the verge of making a big trade with Beane, instead of worrying that he's about to be swindled, he can take smug satisfaction in the idea that Beane's team is in the dumps so it's time to cash in on the fire sale.

The second reason is for the players. How must Joe Blanton have felt in the second half of the season, seeing his name thrown around in so many trade rumors? For that matter, how must the other guys on the team have felt, seeing that Beane was willing to give up one of their best starters? Was he giving up on the team?

This line about the "fork in the road" makes it possible for everyone to feel reassured. All the guys on the trading block are up there not because Beane doesn't value them, but because they're good players who shouldn't be wasted on a team that can't contend. More important, if it turns out Beane doesn't hear any offers he likes and all the players don't get traded, then the message will be that we've decided we can contend after all, so everyone can take that extra boost of confidence into the new season.

And what's the downside for Beane for pushing this line? None that I can think of. I think it's pure win-win bullshit. The fans are buying it, and the press is buying it. Will the other GMs buy it, too?  I hope so.

--

Three other thoughts about the diaries I read tonight. They're unrelated to the main topic, but it's my diary. You can think of them as special bonus topics.

One. Someone mentioned the idea that teams don't trade within the division. I think this is a canard. It's easy for us to believe it here in Oakland because it so happens that two of the other three in our division won't trade with us, but I don't think it has anything to do with being division rivals.

Some GMs just won't trade with Billy Beane. I believe Bavasi is one of them, and many sports journalists seem to agree. Bavasi made one trade with Beane, in 1999. In his last major trade as GM of the Angels, he sent Omar Olivares and Randy Velarde to the A's at the trading deadline. Since he took over in Seattle, Bavasi has done no trades with Beane, and as far as I know they've never even discussed any.

Some GMs trade a lot, some don't. Bavasi trades a little but not a lot. Bill Stoneman hardly traded at all with anyone, so it's no shock that he never traded with Beane. Maybe the new guy will be different. I don't know. But I don't think it has anything to do with being in the same division.

Two. I see that the debate about the team's budgetary process for player payroll rages on. The next time someone interviews Beane, can we please have some serious questions about this? Unlike so many topics we're tempted to ask Beane about, this is one where he could actually provide some meaningful information. Obviously he's not going to come out and say "I'm not allowed to spend more than $75 million this year," but he could shed a lot of light on the process that would make our discussions here more informed. How fixed is his budget? Is it directly tied to revenues? How separate are player salaries from other player development expenses? If there's a target budget for the year, how much flexibility does he have to exceed it if an opportunity warrants it? Conversely, if there is a target budget for the year but the opportunities really aren't there, does he still spend the money the best he can, or does he prefer put it back into the company, whether to retain as capital or distribute as dividends?

I'm not saying he's going to tell us all the details about how the company is run, nor give out any real financial figures, but it seems to me there's quite a bit he'd be happy to discuss if only someone were to ask the right questions.

Three. Our former interest in Lastings Milledge. Yeah, I wonder if that was bullshit, too. Since when is Beane interested in guys above the radar? He's notorious for expressing phony interest in popular names in order to better hide his interest in the under-the-radar guys he truly wants. Not just in trades, but in the draft, too. Remember Nick Swisher.

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A couple thoughts

First:  I don't know where you got the idea that Beane hasn't had any recent success with undervalued throw in players.  You can make an almost indefensible argument that Jack Cust was the second best DH in baseball last year and Chad Gaudin has better raw stuff the Danny Haren; both were under the radar cash buy outs or trades who could be considered the same type of throw in player that Ellis was.

Last: I just can't buy a conspiracy theory right now.  This isn't the '06 team like so many people on AN want to believe.  The A's have major offense and pitching holes and they just wont have any impact players to fill them besides Barton until '09 at the earliest.

Haren and Blanton are at their peak value right now.  Ether you trade them now and be competitive again as early as '09, or hope at a 85 win season next year (after Harden is injured again and all of AN has a massive annurism trying to figure out why Kotsay is still batting in the two-hole), and then be less competitive in two years when Haren and Blanton no longer have the value to trade for a pitcher like Kershaw.

There is no way this team is competitive next year without another pitcher to keep DiNardo out of the rotation, a new center fielder to keep Kotsay from hitting in the 2-hole, a new shortstop to keep Crosby from having a fourth rookie year in batting at the plate, and another right handed hitting power bat.

by Threepwood XX on Dec 3, 2007 1:59 AM PST reply actions  

Huh?

Did I say Beane hasn't had any recent success with undervalued players recently?  I sure didn't mean to.

I also didn't mean to suggest any conspiracy theory.  I meant to suggest that Beane has fed a load of bull to the press, and not for the first time.  Conspiracy of one, I guess.

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 3, 2007 3:27 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree

I agree with most of what your saying. Over the past couple of months I have watched many fans flip out about the idea of trading Haren/Blanton or any of the pitching. I have also listened to A's fans say how good the team could be if we just add Bonds or an Aaron Rowand or Andruw Jones.

the fact remains in this current free agent market there are little alternatives for any team. The trade market is as ripe and ready for the taken as its ever going to be. Haren/Blanton are definatly overrated and compared to Hudson/Mulder are nowhere near their talent at the same times in their career. Beane knows this and is ready to take advantage of the current market for them. If Billy traded Hudson/Mulder and knew we would still compete the next year or the year after, he must feel the same way about Haren/Blanton/Street. The fact is if all three are dealt and the A's get a combination of lets say eleven players of substantial talent he has achieved two major goals.

1.Replenish the farm system with star talent.
2.Build a current core that can compete with the Angels and is cheap enough to lay the next foundation ala 2000 style.

Lets say the eleven players are
1.Hughes
2.Tabata
3.Clippard
4.Betances
5.Kemp
6.Hu
7.Meloan
8.Elbert
9.Adam Miller
10.Brad Snyder
11.Ben Fransisco

The A's fill the minor leagues with Tabata, Clippard, Betances, Meloan, Elbert, Snyder and Fransisco. The big league club would look something like

Compare it to 2004 when everyone stated the team would not compete after trading Hudson/Mulder
C-Suzuki > Kendall
1B-Swisher > Johnson/Hatteberg
2B-Ellis < Ellis
3B-Chavez = Chavez
SS-Crosby/Hu > Crosby/Scutaro
LF-Cust > Kielty
CF-Kemp > Kotsay
RF-Buck > Swisher
DH-Barton > Durazo/Hatteberg

SP-Harden <Zito <br>SP-Hughes = Haren  
SP-Miller = Blanton
SP-Gaudin > Harden/Glynn/Yabu
SP-Duke > Saarloos

Closer-Brown = Dotel/Street

Much better overrall talent and what was a weak minor league system now becomes a plus.

by tankormike on Dec 3, 2007 5:34 AM PST reply actions  

ummmm....you have three RF's in that outfield

Kemp cannot play center---he doesn't even do a decent job in right! Basically, any ball hit into that outfield could theoretically become a triple...

by kitoko on Dec 3, 2007 7:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Okay

A)It is more of an example.
B)Kemp has played 45 games in CF out of 144.

by tankormike on Dec 3, 2007 7:55 AM PST up reply actions  

i coulda sworn ellis got better, not worse

also, kielty wasn't a starter, if i remember right, hughes doesn't quite equal haren (yet), miller definitely doesn't equal blanton (more like harden, because of the arm injuries), and brown is nowhere near dotel or street (but i'm sure someone is gonna pull up some sort of obscure statistic to the contrary).

"He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Dec 3, 2007 2:03 PM PST up reply actions  

He's actually a lot like Dotel

It's the Dotel/Street comparison which is the problem there, because right now Street is much, much better than either of them. I'm a big Andrew Brown booster, but there's no question about who the #1 reliever on the team is right now.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 3, 2007 3:00 PM PST up reply actions  

I also like Brown

He looks much thinner than when he was on "Amos 'n Andy" back in the 1950s.

I was at Safeco last summer when he pitched against the Mariners.  He had those fans muttering, so I was doubly impressed.  I also saw him (impressive) in home games.

Could he be a closer?  I think you have to "want it" to be a closer.

"I never predict anything, and I never will." Paul Gascoigne, English footballer

by One won lost won on Dec 3, 2007 3:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Its a comparison to 2005

Its a comparison to 2005.

Ellis had a monster year in 2005, I dont see him having another year batting 316 and an 816 ops.

In 2005 Kielty had the majority of the starts in LF.

line 2005 OAK 116 377 55 99 20 0 10 57 50 67 3 2 .263 .350 .395 .746  

Hughes could probably do better than Harens first year with the A's.

2005 OAK 34 34 14 12 0 3 0 217.0 212 101 90 26 53 163 3.73 1.22 .255

The comparison to Dotel/Street was because Dotel blew a ton of games before getting injured and leaving Street the closer.

by tankormike on Dec 3, 2007 3:44 PM PST up reply actions  

didn't ellis

have his best power year this year though? what did he ops this year?

"He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Dec 3, 2007 9:45 PM PST up reply actions  

aight
thanks for the clarification
"He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Dec 5, 2007 8:00 AM PST up reply actions  

Agree with your basic premise

I've been calling bullshit on Beane in the comments, so I'm glad you wrote this diary.  I believe Beane is using the health excuse as a cover to allow him to explore trade options while not really committing to actually make any trades.  It would not surprise me to see all three of Haren, Blanton, and Street traded, and it would not surprise me see to none of the three traded.  Beane has particular players in mind from each team, and he will not trade unless he gets them.

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Dec 3, 2007 6:38 AM PST reply actions  

+1
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Dec 3, 2007 7:43 AM PST up reply actions  

While it's possible, I guess, that he's changed

his views, I've felt the whole "either/or" thing was more or less a load of hooey from the get-go. When did Billy Beane turn into George W. Bush? With us or against us? Contending or rebuilding? WTF?

I think you're quite right about the psychological impact of what he's saying. The key here is that by creating the perception that a firesale is on, he gives up a little negotiating leverage in return for getting a lot more offers to sift through. He may have concluded that the key to trading is not to swindle one GM in particular, but simply to take advantage of the natural effects of the "auction winners' curse."

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 3, 2007 8:17 AM PST reply actions  

I don't really take his public comments seriously

and the "wait and see how the injuries look" stuff is clearly bs. But, I also think that "go for it" or "blow it up" are much better options as the team stands than some middle road. So, I think it's pretty plausible that that's his mindset just because it makes sense to me, rather than because he said it.

I too would like to see the payroll Q answered.

by mikeA on Dec 3, 2007 9:26 AM PST reply actions  

some ESPN commenter?

dude, Kenny Mayne is not just "some ESPN commenter."  There is no better.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 10:25 AM PST up reply actions  

I got it off

Hollinger's power rankings. Don't know anything about Kenny Mayne saying that.

The Warriors are so hot they set the KeyArena scoreboard on FIRE!-some espn commenter

by mikeA on Dec 4, 2007 10:26 AM PST up reply actions  

ah

On the Sunday night SC he made several hilarious connections between the Warriors-Sonics game and the fire at Key Arena.  He's from Washington, so he referenced some Seattle fire from the 19th century, among other things....

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 10:32 AM PST up reply actions  

I come to a different conclusion

Like you and BC53 and mikeA and many others, I think Billy's winter words have been disinformation pure and simple.  But I conclude that he's already decided to tear things down, with one eye on the Angels and the other on Fremont circa 2011.  To the extent there's any truth in the "wait and see what the health fairy brings" line, I think it's only about whether the dominoes fall now, or in June.  But fall they will.

You are groovy flowers in a garden where I am privileged to stand and share a few moments with you. --Lord Buckley

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Dec 3, 2007 9:47 AM PST reply actions  

Stark's latest

Since we're talking about public statements...

Reportedly Beane has asked for 2 of the Yankees big 3, 2 of Boston's big 3 and both Gomez and Mertainez from the Mets in a deal for Haren. Then take a piece by Slusser last week that says Beane expects as much for Blanton as he does for Haren.

When teams balk at Beane's asking price for Haren he can then slip in Blanton, offer a "concession" that Blanton isn't quite as good as Haren and therefore lower his price at the top end of the deal and clean up on the backside of the deal.

Stark link

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 3, 2007 9:51 AM PST reply actions  

Anyone who still thinks the A's should be working

the free agent market, take a gander at that "all-free-agent team" list.

What a pile. That team would win like 60 games.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 3, 2007 10:14 AM PST up reply actions  

Hopefully

you wouldn't have to sign everyone on that list to field your team.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 3, 2007 10:30 AM PST up reply actions  

Hm
"Hopefully you wouldn't have to sign ANYone on that list to field your team."

Corrected.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 3, 2007 10:47 AM PST up reply actions  

I fully agree...

and with regards to health, guys like Chavez, Crosby, Harden, and Kotsay have little to no value now but rest assured if they play healthy and with some productivty Beane will look to deal them by end of July.  Perhaps a guy like Kotsay could dealt in a package with Blanton/Street/Haren to free up salary for boosting the scouting department.

by Miggy on Dec 3, 2007 9:53 AM PST reply actions  

I disagree ...

I think, just as you do and should take what BB is saying now with a grain of salt, you should also take his past comments with a grain of salt.

Things ARE different now -- in at least two very important ways.

  1. This team as assembled and stocked in the farm system is going to get worse before it gets better. Aside from any hopes of Chavvy and Harden getting healthy, there's really only one significant player on the MLB roster that I think there is a good chance of meaningful improvement over 2007.

That player is Chad Gaudin. Other than that, I think we've seen more or less the best we're going to see from the rest of our roster.

Travis Buck and Nick Swisher are good players -- but they don't really have any upside beyond that. They could improve a little, but not a whole lot. Furthermore, as they age, any small improvements will likely be offset by defensive declines.

Haren is a very good pitcher, an average #1 or a high end #2, I'm not taking anything away from him, but 2007 was likely his career year.

Blanton could continue doing what he's been doing for a long time -- eating a ton of slightly above average innings every year. I don't think anyone really expects anything more than that out of him.

I think Ellis can maintain his 2007 performance for a couple more years -- but only one of them is contracted to be with the A's and while resigning him would probably be a good deal in the first year or two, after that, well how many FA deals ever look good after the first couple?

Suzuki actually posted the second highest IsoP at any level of his career in the Majors last year ... I think that's due for a correction -- though his BA and OBP should come up a bit over the years.

Jack Cust was a great story and a great player last year. He should continue to be a solid contributor. By any metric, though Cust had an aberrational year. He's a unique player -- but not unique enough to sustain that BABIP.

Barton, of course, is going to continue to be a good player -- but he's also very much in the Swisher/Buck low risk, limited upside mold.

Beyond that, we don't have a single prospect with the realistic potential to be an impact player above Kane County -- meaning they are at least two years off.

Any improvements over the next couple of years will have to come from outside the organization and, unless Chavvy and/or Harden get healthy, there are plenty of reasons to doubt whether the team can contend without those improvements.

  1. Which brings me to my second point, the market has changed. Teams have gotten smarter. There are still undervalued players out there -- but they come with more risk and less reward than they used to. Large external improvements are not going to be available without breaking the bank. I wouldn't count on the team breaking the bank anytime soon.
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 12:09 PM PST reply actions  

Formatting... wow

I agree with the calls on Haren, Buck, Barton and Swisher. I think you were a little harsh on Suzuki (he just turned 24 after all).

And I'm curious to know how you're defining "impact" player. Better than good?

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 3, 2007 12:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Maybe I am being a bit harsh to Zooks ...

but scouts don't like him and he outperformed statistical expectations this year, so I can't feel too optimistic about it ... but who knows ... hopefully ...

I don't think the definition matters that much ... by impact player I probably meant better than good ... but I don't think changing the definition to simply good would change anything ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 1:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Definitions

Just that some folks think "impact" = star player.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 3, 2007 1:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Harsh?

Barton has an IsoP of .157 in the minors. That augurs well for him continuing to develop additional home-run power, which is really the only thing between him and genuine offensive excellence. He started to show it this year, with 18 jacks.

Buck doesn't have the same harbingers, but he's still pretty young himself. He seems like a guy who could easily be a .300/.400/.400-type hitter, which is pretty excellent even for a corner outfielder, and great if he learns to play CF.

Swisher's had two seasons such that if he combines the high points of each (power hitting in '06, OBP in '07), he's an All-Star. He's also already an excellent defender at two positions.

None of them is at an age where defensive decline is at all likely. Typically defense skills start to erode around the early thirties.

I see a lot of room for improvement among those guys.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 3, 2007 12:36 PM PST up reply actions  

I like Barton ...

don't get me wrong. I think he can be a .900 OPS player. In fact, I think he already is a .900 OPS player.

Defensive decline tends to correlate pretty well with increased power -- which is certainly where Buck and Barton have the most room for growth. BTW, you're also not disagreeing with me on Buck. He's a good player and you're not arguing that he's going to get any better -- which was my point. I also don't think there's any reason, whatsoever, to believe he can be a good enough center fielder to matter.

Swisher's improved OBP in 2007 was almost entirely tied to his improved BA ... I wouldn't be surprised if he improved slightly, bouncing back to his 2006 levels ... but that's about it.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 12:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Hm... I'm unconvinced

Defensive decline tends to correlate pretty well with increased power

Link?

This sounds like a serious correlation/causation issue here. I'm sorry, but I just find it totally implausible that an improvement in Barton's power, at the age of 22, is somehow inextricably linked to a decline in his ability to play first.

Re: Swish, I know the numbers are not fully going to bear me out here, but... he was so visibly not hitting at his full potential last year. There were times when he was "on," and there were other times when he was falling over from swinging so hard. I mean, maybe he is what he is, but I'd like to think he could improve that aspect of his game a little as he gets older and wiser.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 3, 2007 1:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Probably guilty as charged ...

though changing one's physical makeup is usually an important aspect of adding power ... those changes in body makeup usually result in a loss of speed ...

Swish could certainly improve a bit ... I know you've got a man crush on him and that's cool.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 2:00 PM PST up reply actions  

focus on one tool

it's not explainable in a stat...if someone is trying to get better at hitting, they will focus more on that than fielding. it happens. it could be part of the reason, but more likely a coincidence.

"He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Dec 3, 2007 2:07 PM PST up reply actions  

harbingers

So long as none of our players exhibit hardengers (or would that be hardangers?), I'll feel fine.

People here actually know what a trireme is. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 3, 2007 1:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Swisher

Honestly, I'm content with Swisher even if he doesn't improve much. Right now he's a good player, general all-around skills, flexible defensively, great personality, signed at a good price for several years.  That works for me.

Give me a team full of Swishers and I don't need any stars.

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 3, 2007 1:38 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't disagree ...

but unless you think this is already a 92-95 win team ... we need improvement somewhere ... I don't see it happening internally is the point.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 1:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Improvement somewhere

Replace all the non-Swishers with Swishers.  I want to see a lineup of nine Nick Swishers.

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 3, 2007 1:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Any room for a Hatteberg or two in your lineup?
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 1:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Cincy's shopping him!
Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 3, 2007 1:58 PM PST up reply actions  

my god, that would be a loud team
People here actually know what a trireme is. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 3, 2007 2:04 PM PST up reply actions  

YEEEEEHAAA!
"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 3, 2007 2:06 PM PST up reply actions  

aka

The Oaktoon Method of Political Success.

The Warriors are so hot they set the KeyArena scoreboard on FIRE!-some espn commenter

by mikeA on Dec 3, 2007 2:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Can you imagine a dugout of nine Swishers

after one of them hit a home run?

It would take like half an inning for all the strange dances to die down.

Not to mention they'd be hitting home runs pretty frequently.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 3, 2007 3:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Yes, I can

That would be friggin' awesome!

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 3, 2007 3:58 PM PST up reply actions  

That's the Swisher that doesn't go into

a 'swing for the hills' approach when he gets in a slump, right?

by OldhamA on Dec 4, 2007 12:45 AM PST up reply actions  

very harsh imo

I agree that Gaudin is likely to get better, and that Haren/Blanton/Swisher will be stable, but likely will not see more than marginal improvement beyond 2007 numbers. I also agree that Cust should see some regression (maybe OPS 850 instead of over 900)

I disagree with you about Barton and Buck. It's very difficult to look at a 22 year old like Barton and project into his 27/28/29 year old seasons (likely his peak with the A's). Buck probably has 1-2 seasons of development in him as well, seeing as he skipped all the way up from AA and is only 6 months older than Gaudin.

Actually, the nicest thing about Buck and Barton is that their biggest weaknesses are on the defensive side. If they can work to the point where they're league average at their positions, they'll be very valuable to the future of the club.

You're also very hard on Blanton's year– "eating a ton of slightly above average innings." He had as good a season, if not slightly better, than Haren. He was 11th in FIP in all of baseball (Haren was 17th).

Omar Minaya is Jim Bowden's beeatch.

by rebus on Dec 3, 2007 1:41 PM PST up reply actions  

It's difficult, sure ....

but unless we're going to throw up our hands and declare the regular season a crap shoot too, we have to make projections, believe in them and plan based on them. I think Barton is a good player and will continue to be ... I expect him to post an OPS right around 900 every season he is healthy for the next six years. That's an optimistic projection.

I like a lot of our players. We have a lot of good players -- Swish, Buck, Cust, Barton, Ellis, Chavez, Haren, Blanton and Gaudin are all good players. Haren is a very good player and I think Barton will be too.

My comments should not be taken as an insult to any of these guys.

I'm just not sure that the team as a whole is really good enough to compete, despite these guys being good players and I don't see it improving on its own over the next 2-3 years.

I also don't see any real value in fielding a team that's just good enough to win the NL Central ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 1:53 PM PST up reply actions  

I would be very surprised if Barton

opsed .900 this year.

The Warriors are so hot they set the KeyArena scoreboard on FIRE!-some espn commenter

by mikeA on Dec 3, 2007 1:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks!!!!

Now I don't have to feel like some horrible pessimist!

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 2:00 PM PST up reply actions  

I would be too, actually

In terms of "component OPS," Barton would probably need more or less the following:

300 points of batting average, times two
200 points of isolated slugging
100 points of isolated OBP

to OPS .900.

I don't see that happening before he grows into his full power and has a thorough understanding of MLB pitching; i.e. around age 24 or so (2010).

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 3, 2007 2:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, the A's won the AL West in 2006

Chavez was his same disappointing, yet OK self. Crosby sucked, as usual. Kendall was better than in 2007, obviously, but he wasn't so good that he is irreplaceable by Suzuki. Kotsay was also better than in 2007, but again, like Kendall, he was already well on the path to being crap.

Kendall has already been replaced. Kotsay should be replaceable too, as long as Beane is willing to admit that Kotsay was a mistake, and a sunk cost.

Harden was pretty much a non-factor in 2006.

The key is for everyone else on the team not to get injured like they did in 2007.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Dec 3, 2007 2:27 PM PST up reply actions  

yeah, but the Angels are vastly better in 2008...

and if the get Cabrera they are really loaded for the next couple of seasons.  I would rather they save up $$ to improve scouting, replenish the famr, and get ready to contend in Fremont.

by Miggy on Dec 3, 2007 2:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Chavez was better in 2006 ...

and, more importantly, there was 52% more of him.

I'll agree that Suzuki behind the dish and whoever we play in Center will adequately replace Kotsay and Kendall, circa 2006.

Ignoring everything else that has changed (Frank Thomas, Barry Zito, a depleted bullpen), we'd still be left with a team that sported a Pythagorean record of 85-77. Don't get me wrong -- I think this team is a bit better than that -- but it won't matter if the Angels win 95+ games ... which they are a pretty decent bet to do.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 3:35 PM PST up reply actions  

I suppose I'm in the minority on this

but I'd be happy with an 85-77 team.  I just like to win as many games as we can.  Last season was a failure because we had a lousy record, not because the Angels had a better one.  I'd rather lose the division with 90-72 than win it with 80-82.

I don't want to throw in the towel on the 2008 season just because we expect the Angels to win 95 games.

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 3, 2007 3:57 PM PST up reply actions  

In an ideal world, I wouldn't want to either ...

but if we throw in the towel for 2008, we could end up having some pretty sick teams come 2010 and 2011 ... if we don't we'll likely be able to pull together decent but descending teams for the next 2-3 years before we have to start over from scratch -- which will leave us a much deeper hole to climb out of.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 4:02 PM PST up reply actions  

I think Beane's more conservative than believed

I'm calling Oakeshott on Billy Beane.

People here actually know what a trireme is. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 3, 2007 2:06 PM PST reply actions  

I'm calling balls hat

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 3, 2007 2:11 PM PST up reply actions  

I sometimes wonder if BB is really Asian...

his affinity for cheapness and bait and switch tactics....maybe he was a car salesman in College?

At any rate, much of what mdl posted makes sense. I wonder if Beane is drawing out everyong to peruse Blanton and Haren as to gauge what other GM's perceived assessment of their own roster values. From their Beane can then do a dog and pony show, only to ask for his real interested trade with something he perceives as similar trade value, all the while not really wanting to trade Haren or Blanton unless some ridiculous offer a la Mulder trade comes up.

"how do you strain your oblique while staring at strike 3?" by slyrus

by ST on Dec 3, 2007 4:20 PM PST reply actions  

???

Well, if that's the logic, let's ask the question that naturally follows:

Is Beane a lousy driver?

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 3, 2007 5:06 PM PST up reply actions  

"CGV, party of one;

CGV, party of one, your table is ready."

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 3, 2007 5:48 PM PST up reply actions  

ST = Asian

This was a tongue in cheek joke, by an admitted cheap Asian as myself....sorry if it came across wrong. Please don't make this another Nico "jungle" event...:X

"how do you strain your oblique while staring at strike 3?" by slyrus

by ST on Dec 4, 2007 12:31 AM PST up reply actions  

Lol

Nico, as far as I can tell, did not intend the connotations of that "jungle" remark.

Whereas you made an explicitly racist (if self-deprecating, which really doesn't make any difference) joke.

If your friends like to crack racial jokes of whatever sort, knock yourself out. But on a public website? No one can even glean your tone, much less your own race. It just makes you look like a jackass.

I'd suggest to the moderators that they just delete this entire section of the thread. It's probably best forgotten.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 4, 2007 12:43 AM PST up reply actions  

My apologies again...

While I may not see any racial epiteths in my remark with frugality, i do know where to draw the line between it and distinct racial slurs. I think that this little offshoot has too much of a Monte Poole feel to it, so again I apologize...  

"how do you strain your oblique while staring at strike 3?" by slyrus

by ST on Dec 4, 2007 2:35 AM PST up reply actions  

FWIW ...

I think where it got problematic is when you compared Billy Beane, the Asian to a car salesman, based on his bait and switch tactics (ie dishonesty) ... the cheap part, perhaps a little tasteless ... but not a huge deal on its own ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 9:29 AM PST up reply actions  

btw, devo

I found your assessment of the 2008 A's to be the most realistic here.  Good point also about the A's overachieving in 2006 according to their pythagorean record--that tends to be forgotten by people like me who'd rather remember Milton Bradley as the best player in the playoffs that year, as Peter Gammons did (which isn't really true, but y'all know how I feel about Bradley).

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 11:49 AM PST up reply actions  

Wow!

I was born in another country, immigrated via boat and plane to the good ol' US of A, moved from white suburbia of my family's sponsorship in Oregon to the ghetto's of Latinoville in East San Jose where I grew up, and learned 3 languages in the process. I have been discriminated, harassed, ridiculed, profiled, stereotyped and falsely accused of many things based on my ethnicity, but getting preached by those that cannot fathom what a minority goes through is just incomprehensible.

While it was probably politically incorrect for the light hearted innocent joke, some of the comments afterwards are even worse and very ignorant. Being cheap seems somehow derogatory in nature for some, on the par of using the N bomb, it's a way of life for me, my family and relatives and we're proud of it actually.

Yes, I was an internet noob, by not caveating the remark with my own background, and I did apologize for that. But the rest of this...was this necessary for such an innocent mistake? (thanks CTM for understanding btw).

(Jots down notes never to cite Asians as smart either =/)

"how do you strain your oblique while staring at strike 3?" by slyrus

by ST on Dec 4, 2007 6:04 PM PST up reply actions  

self-deprecation makes all the difference...

Once he in fact identified himself as Asian, you're going to chastise him for taking shots at himself?  I know you're probably the person who's least familiar with self-deprecation on this site, but even you should be able to understand how much the context changed when ST revealed that he was Asian (which he admittedly should've done in the first post, heh).  You may have noticed that mdl made a similar comment, also.  

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 11:45 AM PST up reply actions  

Speaking as a white person

white people have very small penises.*

*Not to be construed as taking sides in this discussion.

The Warriors are so hot they set the KeyArena scoreboard on FIRE!-some espn commenter

by mikeA on Dec 4, 2007 11:46 AM PST up reply actions  

lol

White people tend to take themselves too seriously.  Thank the Protestant work ethic for that.  Speaking as a white person who is taking a side here (not a WASP, though, heh).

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 11:51 AM PST up reply actions  

Speaking as a white person ...

I don't have a small penis ... (well, unless you're comparing me to a black person ... but that just wouldn't be fair -- and that's scientific fact, I'm not stereotyping ... and who would take offense to that anyway?)

but I can't jump, nor can I dance ... and I like country music ... but I don't vote Republican (As a white male who attends church regularly the odds are pretty strong) ... or use Meth (wow, not cool, I apologize) ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 12:10 PM PST up reply actions  

meth

I remember knowing that I made a good overcaffeinated rant on here once when saint responded, "lay off the meth, dude."

Can't jump, can't dance...tell me about that.  Country music on the other hand, I'll defy my race's demographics on that one.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 12:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Funny stuff ...

but what do you have against country music? I'll grant you for the most part it's nothing too terribly sophisticated, but it's just good, fun music that doesn't take itself too seriously.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 12:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Just can't tolerate the sound

It all sounds the same, and that's a sound I don't like.  I like some obscure country-rock stuff like the Meat Puppets, or I guess the closest that I like would be southern rock, Skynyrd and the Allman Brothers.  And Johnny Cash did a good job covering Nine Inch Nails, at least.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 4:37 PM PST up reply actions  

mike?

We now know too much information about you.

by IM4Oakgal on Dec 4, 2007 10:33 PM PST up reply actions  

White people as a class, not me...
The Warriors are so hot they set the KeyArena scoreboard on FIRE!-some espn commenter

by mikeA on Dec 4, 2007 10:42 PM PST up reply actions  

QOTM

I know you're probably the person who's least familiar with self-deprecation on this site ...

And I agree ... the first post would have been much better if ST had given us some context ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 12:04 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't know

I think Grover would give PT some competition in the non-self-deprecating category.

They're both among the top five, I should think....

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 4, 2007 12:07 PM PST up reply actions  

I think I came up with a fair compomise ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 12:12 PM PST up reply actions  

OK, but pomise me

that you'll remember the r next time.

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 4, 2007 12:17 PM PST up reply actions  

my bad ...

I pomise ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 12:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Added thing I forgot to mention:

when the joke is actually funny, it excuses a lot.

Like this.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 4, 2007 12:25 PM PST up reply actions  

oh, ok

So if you personally find a joke funny, that's the most important criterion for whether or not it's acceptable.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 12:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Let me give you an example here

Bill James once wrote of a player that he was to catching what Thurman Munson was to aviation.

Crude? Yup. Incredibly tasteless? Absolutely. But also hilarious.

It was still cut out by the editors.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 4, 2007 12:59 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm sure the family of Munson or Lidle

wouldn't agree.

Humor is subjective.  There's a fine line.  I personally find self-deprecation to be the safest form of humor that exists.  The last time I was in a comedy club, I got into an argument with the feature act.  He was pissed off that a woman had interrupted his monologue to take a cell phone call.  He made jokes at her expense the entire time she was out of the room.  When she stepped back in, he almost confronted her about this perceived violation of comedy club etiquette.  She informed him that the call had been from her husband, calling from Iraq.  The comic scoffed, mimicked someone holding a phone, started making sound effects that were intended to sound like gunfire, and said "hi honey, just wondering how you were enjoying the comedy show" in the most mocking way possible.  I stood up from near the stage and told the guy to shut the fuck up (those were my exact words).  Afterwards, he wanted to fight me outside the club, but I calmly approached him (i was with three females, and I'm 6'1, a buck fifty, so I was screwed if a fight broke out) and said I thought he crossed the line.  We proceeded to debate for about 15 minutes, the product of which was a hug (lol...extended by him, this alpha male to the max...believe it or not) and an offer to do 10 minutes of standup the following night opening for him.  I could not accept the offer, unfortunately, as I already had other plans, but...

Point is, ultimately, it's subjective.      

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 1:17 PM PST up reply actions  

The problem here

is that deprecating one's own race in a stereotypical fashion is not merely deprecating oneself. It's deprecating everyone else of that race, too. THAT's what I have a problem with. If he was a race of one, I wouldn't have any issue with it at all.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 4, 2007 1:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Is it up to you to judge...

as a third party who may not be familiar with what the race's standards for self-deprecation are?

Listen...this is the best example I can give of a comparable situation.  It's treading some controversial water just for me to bring it up, probably, but here goes.  Bill Cosby and others aside, black people are accustomed to addressing each other as "nigga."  This is perhaps not only self-deprecating but degrading, but it's acceptable within the black community, recent efforts to change that arrangement aside.  Now, not only would you or I offend a black person by referring to them that way, but we'd also probably offend them by offering our opinions on whether or not it's acceptable for them to address each other that way.  It's an issue for the black community to address; that's the consensus.  

So who are you to impose your outside values in a quite similar situation?

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 2:13 PM PST up reply actions  

See, I think that position is nonsense

There's no issue that I, you, or anybody shouldn't have a right to express (hopefully informed and thoughtful) opinions on. Saying that only "the black community" (whatever that means) should be allowed to think or talk about black issues is a guaranteed recipe for preserving racial solipsism.

You're stereotyping people every time you refer to things like "the race's standards for self-deprecation." I mean, what? Everyone of a certain race has exactly the same standards? That's ludicrous.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 4, 2007 2:58 PM PST up reply actions  

so being of a particular race gives one free

license to disparage or have prejudice against said race? i think that's flat out wrong.

in fact, i often find racial prejudice and anger prevalent amongst those of the same race. stereotypes can be damaging to internal racial relations and perspectives.

then again, i won't pretend my views are near universal. i was surprised to read the initial comment in this thread, but attempts at humor don't offend me based on subject matter, they offend me if they're not funny.

Omar Minaya is Jim Bowden's beeatch.

by rebus on Dec 4, 2007 3:01 PM PST up reply actions  

it was Dane Cook, wasn't it?
People here actually know what a trireme is. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 4, 2007 2:31 PM PST up reply actions  

kind of a third-rate Dane Cook
This is Buffalo that we're talking about, so the smallish comedy clubs don't usually attract names like that.  This guy had apparently gotten some Comedy Central airtime, but I had never heard of him (and I can;t remember his name--he kind of reminded me of Tucker Max, appearance-wise and material-wise, if you've ever seen him/read his stuff).  

Speaking of Dane Cook though...a friend of mine recently saw him at the Verizon Center in DC (see, that's more the typical venue he's appearing in now), and heckled him repeatedly with shouts of "There's only one October!"  I wish I was there to witness that.  Those commercials were incredibly lame, the kind of commercials that I would think Dane himself would make fun of.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 2:45 PM PST up reply actions  

One is top 5 ...

the other is top 8 ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 12:10 PM PST up reply actions  

I think I'd be #8

I've at least shown a sense of humor.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 4, 2007 12:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Top 8 ...

unless you can think of 6 other folks to put above you ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 12:32 PM PST up reply actions  

lol

unfortunately, zero, I would say...he's departed.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 12:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Let's see...

1, 2, 3, 4

That's four. Did I miss any?

Urban drives a taxi.

by andeux on Dec 4, 2007 12:43 PM PST up reply actions  

wow

I wasn't aware of numbers one and four.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 12:46 PM PST up reply actions  

oaktoon was the man with the umbrella ...

... and the man behind the fence.

People here actually know what a trireme is. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 4, 2007 1:15 PM PST up reply actions  

lol

Hey, your counsel is needed below.  And not as moderator, but resident grammar expert.  There are many posts clogging up this area now, but I sought your advice somewhere here.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 1:20 PM PST up reply actions  

I'd have said two ...

one for each of his overarching personalities ("the sky is falling, the team is doomed" and "this team is the greatest thing since sliced bread ... sliced bread having been invented the previous winter last time I changed my opinion") ... but since he has departed ... lets say one, in his memory ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 12:46 PM PST up reply actions  

I've decided this entire premise to be false

You can't get more self-depreciating than this my friend. I mean, I'd have to come on here and tell folks I was a male model before I'd undo all that goodwill.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 4, 2007 2:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Is that a thinly veiled personal attack?

on my brief career as a male model?

You can be self deprecating, it's true ... what I really think he was getting at would probably be more aptly described as "in love with your opinions" ... which isn't necessarily a bad thing ... I might not be top 8 ... but I'd be up there as well ... what can I say, who doesn't love a correct opinion?

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 2:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Was that thinly veiled?

I thought it was just obscure enough for only those who've been around for a while to know what I was talking about.

As for being in love with my own opinions... if I didn't love them, how could I expect anyone else to love them?

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 4, 2007 2:20 PM PST up reply actions  

That's true ...

I hung'em up in the early days of AN ... back before 4 digit UIDs existed ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 3:31 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not buying it

When you call yourself "one of the biggest assholes" that's not self-deprecation, that's boasting!

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 4, 2007 2:35 PM PST up reply actions  

It's being honest

The rest is up to your interpretation.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 4, 2007 2:44 PM PST up reply actions  

A very good point ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 3:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Honesty never pays

Nor is it appreciated appearently.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 4, 2007 4:21 PM PST up reply actions  

You do

regularly reference your alleged warmth and fuzziness.  That's sort of self-deprecating.

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 4, 2007 12:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Spell my name correctly scum

or I shall have the fire gods strike you down with righteous fury.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 4, 2007 12:28 PM PST up reply actions  

How about if I just call you Rover?
"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 4, 2007 12:42 PM PST up reply actions  

That would lead to stereotypical comments

about your eyesight and pronounciation skills.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 4, 2007 2:08 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't think it makes any difference at all

How do you know what will or won't be offensive to someone else? Just the mere fact that you happen to look sort of like them? Does it give you a telepathic connection to their mind?

It's presumptuous to assume that your joke won't offend anyone else of your own (or other) race(s) based strictly on the fact that it doesn't offend you.

And get over the childish insults. This is the second time in a week that you've taken an unprovoked personal shot at me, and it's becoming pretty obnoxious.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 4, 2007 12:13 PM PST up reply actions  

I apologize ...

if you are at all offended by my facetious insinuation that white people, like you or I, cannot dance or jump, but vote Republican and use meth ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 12:17 PM PST up reply actions  

what the fuck

"look sort of like them?"  He identifies himself with that racial group, which is a socially defined construct, anyway (read: arbitrarily defined).  I mean, has anyone here proclaimed to be offended?  No, yet ST apologized (unnecessarily, in my opinion...the clarification was enough) anyway.  

That may have been a personal shot, but it certainly isn't/wasn't unprovoked.  This response is evidence in and of itself.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 12:21 PM PST up reply actions  

"This response is evidence in and of itself"?

I have no idea what that means. The fact that I responded to you makes your original insult "provoked"?

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 4, 2007 12:29 PM PST up reply actions  

the melodramatic content of your response

not the FACT that you responded, supports my contention that you're overly uptight.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 12:34 PM PST up reply actions  

It's overly uptight to be offended by an overtly

racist joke?

Well, golly gee. I guess that makes me "overly uptight" then. I'm sorry for spoiling your idyll of a time when racist jokes were a commonplace part of public discourse. You'll have to pardon me. I was having some kind of delusion that we were living in the 21st century.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to head back to the plantation.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 4, 2007 12:54 PM PST up reply actions  

god

Thanks for deliberately misrepresenting what I'm saying.  It's overly uptight...to stridently argue over minutia to the extent that you do.  I hate to break it to you, but it's consensus, man.  Other people have made similar remarks.  As for myself, I don't make snap judgments based on one post.  Obviously, you post enough on here to provide a "body of work" for me to draw some reasonable conclusions about your posting tendencies.  It is too far for me to generalize about your character, though.  

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 1:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Ah, how noble of you

Just judging my "body of work". It's no reflection on me-- honest!

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 4, 2007 1:10 PM PST up reply actions  

MDL (who is half Asian) ...

seemed to not entirely appreciate the comments in his initial reaction ...

PT and Nico (who are both white -- at least I assume, Nico looks white, though he has never admitted to me that he is ...) also did not seem to appreciate the comments ...

I'm not sure if the race of the person actually matters, though ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 12:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Nico said it was a CGV

which is not the same as saying he was offended.  mdl may or may not have been offended, he's around, I'll let him speak for himself here.  But I wouldn't assume that he was...he was quick to make a joke himself.  

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 12:40 PM PST up reply actions  

I was not offended,

but very little offends me.  I can see how others might have been, Asian or not.

I would agree that it was a poor choice for ST to make the reference without adding anything to make it sound like a joke. The first time I read it, I honestly didn't know if he was being serious.  I also agree with PT that the fact that the person making the joke is himself Asian does not make it any less offensive (though some sort of self-reference might have accomplished the task of making it seem more like a joke).

No big deal, though.  We all have occasional minor lapses in judgment. No harm done.

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 4, 2007 1:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Cool, glad you weren't offended

I'll agree to disagree about whether or not a racial reference is more acceptable by a member of the race (ask African-Americans about this issue, and I'm sure the vast majority would side with my argument)...with you, anyway.  The argument with PT probably won't die down anytime soon.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 1:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Seriously, Cutthemullet,

the "unprovoked shot" at Paul was when you said "I know you're probably the person who's least familiar with self-deprecation on this site."

The discussion, up to that point, was whether ST's race-stereotyping comment was inappropriate. The discussion had nothing to do with Paul's capacity for self-deprecation until you chose to bring it up.

Paul takes a lot of shit in this forum -- possibly more than anyone else on AN, and most of it undeserved in my opinion -- but he's usually pretty good about just letting it go. I figured he'd let this one go, and I still think he probably will.

Your comment was far from the worst that has been aimed at Paul, and it is further ameliorated by the fact that it was witty and not entirely untrue. Nevertheless, the fact remains that it was indeed an unprovoked insult.

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 4, 2007 1:17 PM PST up reply actions  

if it's "not entirely untrue"

then it's not entirely unprovoked, either.  It may not have been directly related to the discussion, but pointing out blatant biases and predilections of people involved in the discussion is defensible, in my opinion.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 1:37 PM PST up reply actions  

That's ridiculous

Suppose you're walking down the street and you pass by some poor girl who happens to be overweight and unattractive.  Suppose you stop and say, "Wow, girl, you sure are fat and ugly."  It's not entirely untrue, but it's most certainly unprovoked.

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 4, 2007 2:39 PM PST up reply actions  

ridiculous analogy

Physical traits cannot be helped; the way in which you conduct yourself can.  If you were to counter that personality cannot be helped, well, personality is nothing more than the sum of actions/speech.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 2:52 PM PST up reply actions  

arguable,

but that's not the point. i think the key is the 'unprovoked' part.

Omar Minaya is Jim Bowden's beeatch.

by rebus on Dec 4, 2007 3:04 PM PST up reply actions  

well

physical traits do not provoke; actions do...

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 3:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Physical traits do not provoke?

Exactly which society do you live in again?

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 4, 2007 3:55 PM PST up reply actions  

You're missing the point

I already explained in my earlier post why I think your attack on Paul was not unprovoked.

In response to that post, you've introduced a new argument: that if something is "not entirely untrue" then it must also be "not entirely unprovoked".  My example here demonstrates the falseness of that argument.

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 4, 2007 5:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Wow

Thanks, man. I mean, I wouldn't say I take nearly as much crap as some of the people who write more frequently (especially the mods, of course)-- any time you take a stand, you're going to get crap for it.

But I appreciate the sentiment. This hasn't been the best day for me.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 4, 2007 1:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, OK, maybe

it just seems like a lot to me as a side effect of which diaries I read.  I sure don't read everything on AN (who does?), but I always read all the grover diaries.

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 4, 2007 2:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Hah

Yeah, I can see how you might think that from the grover diaries...

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 4, 2007 2:59 PM PST up reply actions  

What do you expect when in a thread of mine?

Make inaccurate and/or under-informed comments in a diary I post and it's guaranteed I'll let you know.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 4, 2007 3:05 PM PST up reply actions  

That was actually a joke

based on the fact that we've had 2 or 3 extremely prominent arguments in the past few weeks.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 4, 2007 3:13 PM PST up reply actions  

I caught the joke

Next time I'll wink to indicate tone.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 4, 2007 3:16 PM PST up reply actions  

also

I would not consider the other post to which you are referring to be a personal shot, at all.  I attacked your condescending tone, not the person who may in fact be inclined to adopting such an anti-social tone.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 12:30 PM PST up reply actions  

correction

"habitually adopt"..."inclined to adopting" is pretty damn awkward, if not grammatically incorrect (it may be grammatically incorrect, I pondered but could not conclude if adopt or adopting would be better there, heh.  Fell free to step in, monkeyball).

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 12:43 PM PST up reply actions  

blame the keyboard

actually, blame the 30 word-per-minute typist...*Feel

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 12:44 PM PST up reply actions  

I, like grover, am always happy to step in sh*t

"inclined to adopt" is the most correct, but I think I can envision sentences (not yours) where "inclined to adopting" could be grammatically correct.

People here actually know what a trireme is. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 4, 2007 2:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Remember when I said that there was no such thing

as a personal attack?

This is exactly what I was talking about.

I mean, it's patently obvious that you think I'm a prick. Saying "Boy, your writing is awfully prickish" is identical to saying that I'm a prick. The point of your "comments" is so obvious even a Supreme Court jurist couldn't extract any other implication out of it.

And yet apparently, saying that I'm a prick is a Bad Thing, while merely saying that my writing style(which is obviously not intrinsically connected to me in any form) is asinine is A-Ok.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 4, 2007 1:07 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree with PT ...

CTM clearly thinks he's a prick ...

can we just leave it at that?

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 1:22 PM PST up reply actions  

I won't say that, devo...

because I'm trying to follow the rules here.  Check your CG, PT...criticism of posts is entirely allowable; criticism of posters is not.

I'm definitely abiding by the letter of the law if not the spirit.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 1:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Fair enough ...

legalese minutia is something that I'm fairly sure both PT and I can get behind ...

FWIW, I'd say the "even you should be able to understand ..." part clearly crosses that line ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 1:30 PM PST up reply actions  

hey

I didn't nominate myself for QOTM...

That part goes hand in hand with the other part.  I wouldn't have said one without saying the other.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 1:32 PM PST up reply actions  

See, I don't care ...

it amused me ... I wasn't offended ... but then, it wasn't directed at me.

You're just drawing some pretty fine lines here ... I, for one, wouldn't care if you did call PT a prick ... but I'm not on the CGV board ...

Personally, I like the guy, he amuses me ... but I can see how he's not everyone's cup of tea ... for now, I'm off to the gym ... but this post has inspired me ... I think I'll have a cup of tea when I get back ... it'll be a chilly motorcycle ride.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 1:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Gym? Motorcycle?

You weren't kidding about the male model stuff, I guess.

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 4, 2007 2:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Nope ...

I had a very brief career as a male model ... did a few shoots, including one paid job ...

Here are a couple of pics from one of those shoots:

It seems to be cutting off the full image, but click on it and it will show you the full thing ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 3:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Hey, not cool ....

I will take your mother out for a nice seafood dinner and then never call her again!

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 3:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Also ...

there's a difference between saying:
"I know you're probably the person who's least familiar with self-deprecation on this site" -- 'hey you're kind of full of yourself, there, bud ..."

and

"but even you should be able to understand how much the context changed when ST revealed that he was Asian" -- 'you're an idiot, but even you should be able to figure this out'

At that point I'd have to say, boy, that escalated quickly... I mean, that really got out of hand fast.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 1:52 PM PST up reply actions  

I only implied the former...

not the latter.  The second clause reinforced the first.  The guy's posts are pretty insightful, I certainly wouldn't call him an idiot.  I may have some serious disagreements with him on other things, but I'm not going to question his intelligence.  That would be pretty idiotic on my part.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 1:57 PM PST up reply actions  

I know you're abiding by the letter of the law

and my point here, identical to my point on the earlier thread (one of the threads relating to the Urban interview about 3 weeks ago) is that the letter of the law is, in this case, silly. Either just say people can't be insulting, period, or let people speak their minds. I'm certainly on the latter side of the fence.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 4, 2007 1:56 PM PST up reply actions  

It's hard to debate on a blog without...

having statements that can at least be interpreted as insults.  So you can't really bar people from criticizing others' comments in a way that could be considered offensive.  But there definitely is gray area, which is why they have the Community Guideline Panel or whatever it is, for instances where discretion is needed.  I'd rather not beat around the bush either (calling Cutthemullet on bullshit in these comments...), but I'll comply with the rules that have been established.  Or try, anyway.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 2:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Are you referring to the "Chavez Speaketh" thread

?

Because I'm pretty sure you asked for an ignore user function in response to vacafan.  I don't know how consistent that is with letting people speak their minds without censorship of any sort....

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 2:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Are you serious?

In what way does my ignoring someone inhibit their right to free speech?

That's like saying that we don't have a free press because I don't buy newspapers.

Saying that I would like to not have to waste my time on someone's posts is an entirely different kettle of fish than saying that they shouldn't be allowed to post at all.

BTW, no, that's not the thread I was talking about.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 4, 2007 2:11 PM PST up reply actions  

No, see

Your silently ignoring someone does not inhibit their right to free speech.  Or even, if you were to inform them that you would no longer pay attention to their comments, that would not be a problem, either.

Your request for an ignore function, made publicly, does inhibit their right to free speech, however.  They would no longer be able to speak freely to you, and they may be discouraged from speaking as freely to others as a result of your request, thus inhibiting their free speech.  Slippery slope...if you're entitled to that function, then everyone is, and pretty soon we have a fractued "community."  That's a pretty big difference, there.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 2:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, I guess it makes sense that you hold that

opinion, since you seem to think it's your job to lecture and hector others on what is and isn't proper conduct.

I mean, if they could just flip a switch and shut you out, how could you fulfill your function of raising the discourse of the community? Just think of what might happen. People might-- I'm going out on a limb here-- actually incline toward talking with people who didn't irritate them! Man-- think of what that would do to the community!

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 4, 2007 3:05 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't have a problem with anyone here

except maybe you, and I don't think people have a problem with me, except for you.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 3:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Paul?
He said he was sorry that he made the comment. Presumably he has now figured out that most of us don't like reading racial stereotypes posted on the site. Let's not belabor the point.

by IM4Oakgal on Dec 4, 2007 10:31 PM PST up reply actions  

That was 22 hours ago

Since then the point has been belabored, bewildered, bedeviled, befeathered, bedazzled, bebothered and befuddled. I entirely agree with you that it's time to let it rest.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 4, 2007 10:47 PM PST up reply actions  

mdl = half Asian

who isn't a bad driver, but definitely drives slow.

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 4, 2007 2:27 AM PST up reply actions  

I think you're spot on...

...for the most part.  Beane does still come up with the good deal, but surely not as big nor as often as he used to.

This is also pretty much what I said in a thread several months ago... Beane's reputation is hindering him, and I tied that to Moneyball and the way it made some other GMs look bad.  I doubt that Kenny Williams or Brian Sabean will ever trade with Beane again, for example.  The book made them look like naive fools, IMHO.

It would not surprise me in the least if he is consciously positioning himself to be less threatening, and to his credit, he's always seemed to me to be more interested in the results over the image.

by UncleLeo on Dec 3, 2007 5:25 PM PST reply actions  

made Minaya look worse than either

And that's been reinforced within the last week.  What puzzles me about the Milledge trade is that Minaya is an avowed believer in "toolsy" players...Milledge seems to be a Bradley or Swisher-style player whom scouts and sabermatricians can both appreciate.  Whereas Church is clearly preferred by sabermetricians.  So that trade was curious on multiple levels.  I do give him credit for bringing in Oliver Perez, however.  That guy's stuff, the pitcher's equivalent of "tools", definitely would lend itself to a Minaya gamble.  And it was a smart gamble, anyway--he wasn't far removed from being the best pitcher in the second half of...2005, or was it 2004.  In any event, he was still young, available for nothing, somehow, and Minaya made a great move there to find his #2 starter.  

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 11:59 AM PST up reply actions  

mdl...I so hope that you are right.

And it does make sense for Billy to put on a selling face to see what kind of offers pop-up. It would be so great if he reloaded rather than rebuilt.

by IM4Oakgal on Dec 3, 2007 6:03 PM PST reply actions  

Retrospective

This post has proved an interesting Rorschach test.  More than a few have responded to "agree" with me on positions I never really meant to take.

I'll admit the title of the diary was intentionally provocative, but I'm not anti-Beane at all. I'm still very much a Kool-Aid drinker.  Nor did I mean to side with the anti-rebuilding faction.  I would be quite happy to see some of our better players traded this season, if we can get a good return on them. But for me that's not about dismantling the team, it's about making it better for now and the future.

What I did mean to counter is the all-or-nothing attitude which has dominated discussions in AN over the past week, that either we keep everyone and try to contend or we dump everyone and start thinking about 2009. And therefore I am specifically denying Beane's statement that there "is no middle ground".

Maybe my argument that this is BS from BB is wishful thinking on my part.  I certainly do believe there is a middle ground, so I like to think that he does too.

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 3, 2007 6:39 PM PST reply actions  

I agree with you, mdl:

Until Beane reloads the Kool-Aid, dismantling wishful thinking in the middle of the ground makes no sense for 2009. I also agree with your position that Rorschach is BS.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 3, 2007 6:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Really, a Nazi?

I'm glad that you finally understand mdl's diary.  And I agree with you: Horseshack was in the SS.

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Dec 3, 2007 7:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Wow, I did Nazi that coming.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 3, 2007 7:59 PM PST up reply actions  

new popular game:

Nahtzee.

Omar Minaya is Jim Bowden's beeatch.

by rebus on Dec 3, 2007 10:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Rorschach

The Rorschach Inkblot Test is one of the most commonly used instruments in personality testing. There is extensive research to support the psychometric properties of this test. Recent meta-analytic research suggests that the construct validity of the Rorschach is equivalent to that of the MMPI-2, the so-called gold standard of personality testing. Although the Rorschach does a poor job of predicting DSM-IV diagnoses (which is a frequently identified strength of the MMPI-2), Rorschach responses are reliably linked to traits and styles measured on dimensional (rather than categorical) scales. These characteristics include stimulus demands, coping resources, interpersonal perception, self-perception, information processing, ideation, and cognitive mediation. The data yielded by the Rorschach are extremely rich. The test is easy to administer but quite challenging to score and interpret. It is not uncommon for the Rorschach to take over an hour to administer, two hours to score, and one to two hours to interpret. With few exceptions, only advanced students in clinical psychology doctoral programs are trained to use this test. The responsible psychologist with extensive training will recognize that the Rorschach is one of the most important instruments to be used in personality evaluations, and the empirical data clearly support its use.

by Reg on Dec 4, 2007 5:23 PM PST up reply actions  

two hours to score

Are you sure you're not talking about Jeremy Brown?

People here actually know what a trireme is. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 4, 2007 6:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Speaking of Jeremy Brown

Where the heck has NotSellingJeans been?

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 4, 2007 7:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Slide Jeremy slide!

See, the great lines still work.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 4, 2007 8:42 PM PST up reply actions  

What data is this?

Most of the data on the Rorschach I've seen is crap. Also, the data on the MMPI-2 shows that it isn't that great a test either. Maybe there are looser standards in psychology than the field I'm used to, but I've been thoroughly unimpressed.

by MrIncognito on Dec 4, 2007 8:12 PM PST up reply actions  

< cough >

Oh, they're loose, a'ight.

People here actually know what a trireme is. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 4, 2007 10:25 PM PST up reply actions  

How much data have you seen?

And what are the sources? Wikipedia and other Internet sites? A quick search on PsycINFO will give you all the peer-reviewed, scientific references you need. Take a look at Exner's books for reviews of relevant literature. This is a complicated area of research that deserves a more thoughtful response than saying one test "is crap" or another "isn't that great a test either."

I'm not sure which field you are used to, but yes, in the behavioral sciences, the effect sizes will be weaker than those found in the physical sciences.

by Reg on Dec 5, 2007 2:14 AM PST up reply actions  

heh

"More than a few have responded to 'agree' with me on positions I never really meant to take."

I've made it this far down the thread, so I noticed that, as well.  I think the title created preconceptions of negativity for people that could not be undone by the content, which was supportive of the disinformation campaign that you perceive Beane to be engaged in...I mean, your position should've been made pretty clear in the line "it's pure win-win bullshit", or whatever it was.  And you didn't suggest which route you thought Beane would ultimately take, either...other people did that for you.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 12:07 PM PST up reply actions  

heh, maybe I should run for president
"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 4, 2007 12:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, really

People are now drinking the mdl Kool-Aid.

by Cutthemullet on Dec 4, 2007 12:25 PM PST up reply actions  

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