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Time for Another Top 10 -- All-Time Greatest MLB Position Players, #10

#10 Mickey Mantle

Mickey Mantle, born during the heart of the Great Depression was named for one of baseball's most popular players in a difficult time -- the A's great catcher, Gordon Cochran. Lucky for the Mick, his father didn't know that Mickey wasn't Cochran's real name. It was the first of many things Mutt Mantle did right as a father.

Before his Major League career started, though, his health put everything in doubt. On January 10, 1951 the 18 year old prized prospect went in for a routine doctor's visit. In that visit, Mantle learned that the Osteomyelitis he suffered from that resulted from a high school football injury and almost caused him to have his leg amputed was causing problems in his ankle. The Yankees issued an optimistic, but foreboding statement, "Mickey's locomotion is hampered only slightly, but we can't tell now what effect this condition will have on his baseball future." It, unfortunately, proved to have far too profound of an effect on his career, leading to persistent health problems.

Star-divide

Later that year, Mantle supplied a solid rookie campaign, playing right field beside the great Joe DiMaggio in his farewell tour. The Yankees weren't entirely please with his play, though. He spent a portion of it in AAA with the Kansas City Blues, but he still posted a .792 OPS, knocking 13 home runs and stealing 8 bases in 96 games. It was one of the great Yankee teams, featuring Hall of Famers DiMaggio, Berra and Rizzuto along with Mantle. They cruised to 98 wins and cruised into the World Series. Game 2, however, changed Mantle's life. The game started well. Mantle bunted his way on and two singles later he crossed the plate to give the Yankees an early 1-0 lead. A 2nd inning home run would give the Yankees a 2-0 lead, which they would never give up. Mantle's season was almost over, though. He was injured in the fifth inning, while backing up DiMaggio on a Willie Mays fly ball. "I thought he had been shot," DiMaggio answered when asked what he thought had happened. The Yankees went on to win the game and the series, without Mantle. Baseball, though would soon be the farthest thing from Mantle's mind. When arriving at the hospital with his father, he recalled, "I leaned on him for support when I got out of the cab, and he just crumpled to the ground. That's how we found out." Both Mantles were admitted to the hospital. Mickey was diagnosed with a sprained knee. Mutt was diagnosed with Hodgkin's Disease and died a year later at the age of 40.

Mutt with the help of Mickey's left handed grandfather taught him to switch hit in brilliant anticipation of the coming focus on platoon splits. "He foresaw the platooning that managers like Casey Stengel used years before it happened. He told me I had to be a switch-hitter if I was going to play," Mickey recalled.  Mantle regarded his father as the bravest man he had ever known and said that "no boy ever loved his father more." It was one of his great regrets, though, that he never told his father that.

The rest of the story, though, is one that we all know pretty well. Mantle quickly became arguably the best player in the game. With DiMaggio's retirement, Mantle took over Center Field batting .311, knocking 67 extra base hits and leading the league with a .924 OPS (162 OPS+), finishing third in the MVP voting, behind pitchers Bobby Shantz and Allie Reynolds. He also led the Yankees to their fourth consecutive World Series Championship, hitting 2 home runs and posting a 1.061 OPS as the Brooklyn Dodgers took the Yankees to seven games.

The next three years were rather ho-hum by Mantle's standards. He started every All-Star game and led the Yankees to their fifth consecutive title, as well as a loss to the Dodgers in the '55 series. He also finished in the top 5 in OPS each year, including leading the league in 1955.

And then 1956 happened.

Mickey Mantle had a pretty good season in 1956. You'll forgive me if that was among the greatest understatements of all-time:
He won the MVP award -- by a unanimous vote
He won the Triple Crown, with 52 Home Runs, 130 RBIs and a .353 batting average
He also led the league in slugging, OPS and Runs, finishing second in walks and OBP
Finally he led the Yankees to yet another championship, beating the Dodgers in 7 games, thanks in large part to 3 home runs and a 1.067 OPS from Mantle.

What's amazing is that Mantle sort of predicted the season he had, when asked if he could break Ruth's record that year, he responded, "This year I'd rather lead the league in home runs, runs batted in and hitting." His main competition for that triple crown was Ted Williams, who was a bit less than congratulatory after Mickey took the batting average race on the last day of the season, saying, "If I could run like Mantle I'd hit .400 every year!"

He may have been even better in 1957. He didn't have as sexy of triple crown stats -- and because of that he won his second MVP award over Ted Williams by the slimmest of margins. Mantle only slugged 34 home runs -- but he posted an OBP of .512 and slugged .665. That's pretty incredible and he was only twenty five years old.

Lets fast forward now to 1960. Mantle had another great season, second in the MVP voting, behind teammate Roger Maris, led the league in home runs with 40 and OPS with a .957. But it was the World Series that he would remember. The Yankees, led by Mantle, Maris, Berra and Ford rolled into the series as heavy favorites over Roberto Clemente's Pittsburgh Pirates. The Yankees had a rough start in game one, as starter Art Ditmar was chased in the first inning and the Pirates took a 1-0 lead, by a score of 6-4. Order was quickly restored to the world, though, as Mantle slugged two home runs in game 2 and another in game 3 as the Yankees cruised to 16-3 and 10-0 victories to put the Yankees up 2 games to 1. Pitching dominated game 4 and the Pirates got just enough in a 3 run fifth inning to tie up the series and won game 5 5-2 to head home with a 3-2 lead. The Yankees got their offense going in game six, as Whitey Ford recorded his second shutout, 12-0.

This set up a game seven show-down that could only disappoint the most ardent fans of pitcher's duels. Pittsburgh's Vern Law squared off with Bob Turley. Both pitchers gave up three runs before being chased. Law made it into the sixth -- Turley only the second, as the Pirates took an early 4-0 lead. The Yankee bullpen managed 5+ innings of scoreless baseball, though, allowing the offense, led by Mantle's RBI single followed by Berra's three-run jimmy jack, to take a 5-4 lead in the 6th. The Yankees would score 2 more in the top of the eighth to give them a three run lead, a lead that was not long for this world. RBI singles by Groat and Clemente were followed by a three run Hal Smith homer to give the Pirates a 2 run lead. No lead was safe on this night, though, as Mantle and Berra knocked in a run each in the top of the ninth to tie it up. Bill Mazeroski led of the bottom of the ninth. Moments later, the slick fielding second baseman was celebrating with his teammates after his game winning walk-off home run to deep left field. Mickey's wife tried to console him, saying, "Mickey, it's only a game." It wasn't only a game to the Mick, though, who recalled, "In 1960 when Pittsburgh beat us in the World Series, we outscored them 55-27. It was the only time I think the better team lost. I was so disappointed I cried on the plane ride home."

But, as is the beauty of baseball, every spring it begins anew. 1961 was a pretty big year in the career of Mickey Mantle. Lets skip the trivial stuff, yada yada yada ... the team won 109 games and cruised through the World Series, four games to one over the Reds.

We all know the story and Billy Crystal did it better justice than I could, anyway, so lets just see what Mantle had to say:
"The best team I ever saw, and I really mean this, was the '61 Yankees."
"I never got to see the '27 Yankees. Everyone says that was the greatest team ever. But I think it would've been a great series if we'd have had the chance to play them."
"Well, I beat my man. Now it's up to you to beat yours."  (After Maris topped Gehrig's 1927 HR total)
"The strain on Roger (Maris) was unbelievable. After I dropped out the reporters only had one guy to go to. They surrounded him everywhere he went. He had big clumps of hair falling out. That he went ahead and did it was unbelievable."
"It was the single greatest feat I ever saw."
"Roger Maris was as good a man and as good a ballplayer as there ever was."
"I don't know why Roger (Maris) isn't in the hall of fame. To me, he was as good as there ever was."

Mick won his third MVP the next year, in 1962, but at 30, his body was starting to seriously break down. He played only 123 games that year, a number he would only top once in the next four years before finishing his career at first base. When he was healthy, he was still among the best in the game and he managed to play another six seasons and went to two more World Series before he retired in 1968 at the age of 36. At the time, he was third on the all-time home run list at 536. How much have things changed?

In retirement, he was a first ballot Hall of Famer -- but was a poor business man and was having significant financial trouble until the memorabilia craze of the 1980s restored his wealth.

Mantle had lived a hard life, figuring he was destined for an early exit, as had happened with most of the men in his family. In 1994 he checked himself into the Betty Ford Clinic to finally treat the alcoholism that had hurt his playing career, his personal life and was destroying his liver. Despite family tragedies, Mantle managed to stay sober for the rest of his days. Sadly, they were far too few, he had quit too late.

A year later, Mantle was diagnosed with liver cancer and received a liver transplant to treat it. It was too late, though. The cancer had spread throughout his body and he died two months later, on August 13, 1995. "This is a role model: Don't be like me," he warned fans everywhere. He had become a hero, though, establishing the Mickey Mantle Foundation to raise awareness for organ donations, raising money with former teammate Bobby Murcer after the Oklahoma City bombing and living the last years of his life in a very public way.

"Somebody once asked me if I ever went up to the plate trying to hit a home run. I said, 'Sure, every time.'"

Of course a recommend is always appreciated.

All-Time Greatest Position Players
#10 Mickey Mantle
#9 Rogers Hornsby
#8 Hank Aaron
#7 Lou Gehrig
#6
#5
#4
#3
#2
#1

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Great diary.

I love baseball history.  Mantle seemed to be a humble man at the end of his life.  I remember the interview he did shortly before his death.  A touching story tinged with sadness at what could have been.  He's the classic American hero, complete with all the flaws that we seem to love so much.

I take it your list will be by position?  As much an American icon as Mantle turned out to be, how can you rate him a better CF than the Georgia Peach?  Of course Mantel wins the title of better human being hands down.  Easy to do when you're just an alcoholic hero instead of a raging psychopath.  

"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Dec 3, 2007 8:53 PM PST reply actions  

It's not by position ...

Outfielders make up most of the list.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 9:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Oooh...a hint!

Gotta have the Babe, already got Mantle, gotta have Cobb, Mays, Charleston(?), Dimag.  Can't think of any more OF's off hand.  Shit, Bonds probably, too.  Maybe Josh Gibson, Foxx, and I'm stuck on who else.  Snider?  Can't be Rickey, Mickey, or Eddie (top A's).  I'm guessing  maybe Hornsby or Wagner.  Duh, probably Gehrig.

C'mon, the suspense is killing me.  Am I close?

It's Rhodes Scholar Night at the Coliseum tonight.

by Scottbass on Dec 4, 2007 1:28 AM PST up reply actions  

I'd love to see Clemente

but that's some pretty good company already, Scotbass.

"Baseball- like movies, newspapers, and magazines- has fallen into the hands of rich, vulgar people who neither love or understand it." - Hal Crowther

by 67MARQUEZ on Dec 4, 2007 4:57 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah ... some of those guys are on the list ...

you've named too many guys at this point, though and you have missed some.

The list shouldn't be too controversial, though ... I used a three part methodology (that I will get to describing at some point) and all three parts ended up agreeing on eight of the top-10.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 9:25 AM PST up reply actions  

I know that's more than 10

I just was throwing a bunch of names that had to be close.  I can't help it, I love a good puzzle.

Here's my final guess, in no particular order:

Mantle
Mays
Ruth
Bonds
Gehrig
Williams
Cobb
Joe D
Foxx
Wagner

So, are NLers (that's Negro Leaguers) eligible?  I assumed not, and left out Oscar Charleston and Josh Gibson.  You've got my rapt attention all the way to #1 now, devo.

It's Rhodes Scholar Night at the Coliseum tonight.

by Scottbass on Dec 4, 2007 2:53 PM PST up reply actions  

You've got most of'em ...

the ones you're missing, probably not surprisingly, are coming soon ... until then, I'd be interested to know how you'd rank the ten in your list ...

Nope, no NLers ... no disrespect intended -- I just don't think I could do a worthwhile job of comparing them, having never seen them play and lacking any really meaningful statistical comparison.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 3:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Without looking at any stats...

just off the top of my head, I'd go:

  1. The Bambino
  1. Say Hey
  1. Begrudgingly Bonds
  1. The Bigot
  1. Joe D.
  1. The Splendid Splinter
  1. ALS
  1. The Baseball Card
  1. Double X
  1. Mick

Remember though, it's not my top 10.  This is what I think your list will be.  After your last comment, I've gotta assume Foxx and Wagner are off, since I think we can agree on the top seven.  At least that they are on the list, not that I have the correct order.  And, of course, #10 is a given.

Personally, here's my off-the-top-of-my-head top 10:

  1. Ruth
  1. Gibson (that of the Josh variety)
  1. Mays
  1. Cobb
  1. DiMaggio
  1. Charleston
  1. Williams
  1. Gehrig
  1. Collins (tough one, probably won't get alot of agreement on it)
  1. Foxx

My list is based solely on my drug-addled brain, so be sure it's not perfect.  I really just tried to think of who I'd want to start a team with.  From what I've read of Eddie Collins, he not only was a tremendous player, but was a team-leader for about 20 solid years, albeit with different teams.  

With Foxx, I just couldn't think of someone else, and I didn't want to get a book for any help.  Josh Gibson was apparently the real deal.  Oscar Charleston may have been the greatest centerfielder of all time, though not to be confused with Oscar Robertson (Mr. Triple-Double for a season).  I'm just not sold on Mantle as top 10.  Although, take out the NLers and he may well be.

And devo, I hope I'm not spoiling your list.  Like I said, I just like a good puzzle.

It's Rhodes Scholar Night at the Coliseum tonight.

by Scottbass on Dec 4, 2007 4:08 PM PST up reply actions  

At least one of those guys in the next two ...

is on the list ... and, actually, in the top 5 ...

and at least one of the guys you have in the top 5 didn't make it ...

I don't want to give away too much ... so I probably won't say any more ...

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 4:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Ted Williams

should be up there somewhere (maybe third after Ruth and Bonds).

Urban drives a taxi.

by andeux on Dec 4, 2007 10:02 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, that was a tough one...

I just subbed him for some Negro Leaguers, although Williams has probably got to be before Foxx.  For my final list, well, my final list of devo's top 10, see below.

It's Rhodes Scholar Night at the Coliseum tonight.

by Scottbass on Dec 4, 2007 2:56 PM PST up reply actions  

right up my alley

As intriguing and enlightening and riveting as the posts where so many ANer's play GM (and do it so very well, and always with an eloquence and a wittiness that makes me envious), this post on The Mick is my kind of story.

Great read, devo. I honestly didn't know enough to know you had this in you. Keep up with it. There might be a place here for nostalgia after all.

P.S. Loved 61*

"Baseball- like movies, newspapers, and magazines- has fallen into the hands of rich, vulgar people who neither love or understand it." - Hal Crowther

by 67MARQUEZ on Dec 3, 2007 9:02 PM PST reply actions  

Glad you enjoyed it ...

You might also enjoy this.

I enjoy playing GM ... but I love the history of the game even more.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 9:22 PM PST up reply actions  

yep, good stuff

I had started putting together an All-Oakland team by position, but there didn't seem to be much interest. Can hardly blame them. Especially the new crop of fans. How can they rightly choose between Eric Chavez and Sal Bando? You go with what you know.

"Baseball- like movies, newspapers, and magazines- has fallen into the hands of rich, vulgar people who neither love or understand it." - Hal Crowther

by 67MARQUEZ on Dec 3, 2007 9:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah ... I enjoyed what I read ...

I've got to admit, though ... I'm not that interested in 70s and early 80s players ... they were before my time ... but don't yet have the same glean that the older guys have.

The other problem is when you limit yourself to positions and the Oakland years, you're limiting the amount of controversy (and, thus, interest) you can create. No one is going to be that passionate about Mark Ellis v Dick Green, you know? McGwire v Giambi would have been interesting, though ... starting pitcher too ... as great of pitching as the team has boasted, all of the candidates are fairly well flawed.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 3, 2007 10:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Too bad...

I remember you writing about that and had hoped to see more.  I'm all for history, but I always think Athletics franchise players rather than Oakland players.  After all, if they make it to Fremont, the first game they play will most likely feature the "greatest" players in Athletics of Fremont history.  

And the younger fans can look up the stats they like regarding Bando and those guys.  I mean, I wasn't even alive when those 70's teams played, but I still love 'em.  Just like I love the '28 team that just mashed their way to the title.  Just like I love the '02 team that lost an MVP and still won 20 straight.  I think there's always room for nostalgia, as long as it's thought out and not fucking sappy.

I guess I like both aspects of baseball.  I gotta have Field of Dreams and Bill James.

It's Rhodes Scholar Night at the Coliseum tonight.

by Scottbass on Dec 4, 2007 1:15 AM PST up reply actions  

good points both

I may, in my spare time (hehe), have to start it up again, and include the Philly and KC players, too.

I am learning that nostalgia is best served thought out, but there are times the sappiness finds its way in. On occasion.

"Baseball- like movies, newspapers, and magazines- has fallen into the hands of rich, vulgar people who neither love or understand it." - Hal Crowther

by 67MARQUEZ on Dec 4, 2007 5:00 AM PST up reply actions  

Great offseason debate

Remember to consider defense.  And focus on 6-7 year periods of dominance, not career numbers.  (But who am I to tell you how to make your list?)  As for modern players, I would lobby hard for Ken Griffey Jr.  The guy was simply outstanding at the plate and in the field, and on the bases - what a star.  He was the Mantle or Mays of our time.

by sonomanate on Dec 4, 2007 9:50 AM PST reply actions  

It doesn't seem to have inspired much debate ...

so far ...

I take into account both career and their top 5 seasons. Defense is included, both in terms of Gold Gloves and the use of WARP3 (which, while imperfect, is the best measure we have to compare contemporary players to historical players).

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 10:02 AM PST up reply actions  

curious to know

how close A-Rod was to cracking it.

"Baseball- like movies, newspapers, and magazines- has fallen into the hands of rich, vulgar people who neither love or understand it." - Hal Crowther

by 67MARQUEZ on Dec 4, 2007 10:44 AM PST up reply actions  

Very ...
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 4, 2007 10:48 AM PST up reply actions  

guessing...

mantle
morgan
speaker
hornsby
mays
williams
cobb
wagner
bonds
ruth

by username on Dec 4, 2007 3:59 PM PST reply actions  

actually..

better change morgan to musial

by username on Dec 4, 2007 4:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Ugh - I forgot about Stan the Man

Killer list, though.  Tris Speaker?  Good call.  

It's Rhodes Scholar Night at the Coliseum tonight.

by Scottbass on Dec 4, 2007 4:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks Jogging My Memory

I grew up in New York in the era of Willie, Mickey and the Duke. Mantle or Mays became the raging debate, even though the Snider was no slouch. But Mickey and Willie were both rookies in 1951 and seemed to be on parallel career tracks. I was a die-hard Yankee fan and here are a few of my top of mind memories:

  • 2nd game 1960 WS -- Mantle hit a HR to right center, batting right handed, that was well in excess of 450 feet. I believe it was the 1st ball hit in the area of Forbes Field by a right handed batter.
  • 7th game 1960 WS: Mantle alerting dives back to 1B after Rocky Nelson fields a hot smash and steps on first. Mantle would have been an easy out at 2nd ending the inning.
  • 1964 WS: Mantle's walk-off HR off of Barney Schultz. Supposedly he told his teammates that he expected Schultz, a knuckelballer, to try and get ahead with a 1st pitch baseball. Schultz assume Mantle was taking and the inning lasted 1 pitch
  • The entire 1956 season. This was the year he fulfilled his promise. However, it wasn't until Maris arrival that the Yankee fans fully accepted Mantle as the heir to JoeD.
  • 4th game 1963 WS: HR off of Koufax. One of the great strength vs. strenght match-ups in my sports memory. Nothing cute just hardball
  • I never saw anyone hit the ball as far consistently as Mantle. Left center in the Yankee Stadium Mantle played in was called "death valley." I saw Mantle hit the "5" in the 457 FT sign in left center. I saw him hit a ball at least 30 rows beyond the 461FT sign in dead center.
  • Mantle laying down a drag bunt with 2 strikes when batting left handed. This was his slump buster move.

Enough for now.

by NoeValley on Dec 5, 2007 2:48 PM PST reply actions  

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