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Future Athletic Roundup (Prospect Gambling Edition)

Future Athletic Roundup #1.6 – Prospect Gambling Edition

Sports writers are boring.  Every year we have to put up with a bunch of safe prospect lists, and by that I mean top 50, top 25, or top 10.  I really think Baseball Prospectus had it almost right when they went with a top eleven.  Eleven is an interesting number because it, for once, doesn’t go by the "must be divisible by five" rule most top prospect lists use, but I wanted to take it further.  More so then any sport, baseball prospects are a gamble (you can be the next Curt Schilling when you are drafted, and be organizational filler the next), and the number I felt best represented this "hit or miss" mentality was Black Jack’s own 21.

Star-divide

Future Athletic News (Prospect Reloading Edition):

Minor Trade:  In a small, almost under the radar trade, the A’s traded some unknown pitcher named Danny Haren for six scrubs.  None of them are any good and have crappy projections like hitting only 30 home runs a year, or doing useless things like striking people out.  If I feel omnipotent, I might stick a few of them in my top 21.

International Signings:  Billy Beane must not have been feeling well.  He went out and signed three international prospects to six figure signing bonuses.  Both Shortstop Omar Castillo and Pitcher Franklyn Contreras are from Venezuela and will most likely spend another year there.  Right handed pitcher Arnold Leon, from Mexico, not only will get a non-roster invite to spring training this year, but is also projected to start for A+ Stockton this year.  I’m happy to see Beane is finally opening up the pocket book to pump some depth into the A’s shallow development system.

Legacy of the Giants:  The A’s signed Todd Linden (OF) and Justin Knoedler (C), two ex-Giant minor leaguers.  Linden was an AAA MVP and Knoedler used to be considered the Giants catcher of the future.  Both these guys spent years being jerked around AAA and the majors by the Giants and if given a Jack Cust kind of chance, could be sleeper picks to make the team.  I’d like to see Linden be given a chance for the centerfielder job in spring training.

Minor Cuts and Scratches:  The A’s recently made five cuts to their minor league rosters.  Some were hopeless prospects, and others had some potential...just not much potential.  The biggest names were 27 year old reliever Shawn Kohn, who struggled in AAA Sacramento after a strong start in AA Midland, and 24 year old T.J. Franco Jr. who had a 2.67era in A- Kane County but struggled in A+ Stockton.  With the increased relief depth in the system, my take is these guys were just too low on the totem pole to be babied along with only a slim hope of ever getting a cup of coffee.  

Future Athletic Power Rankings:  Top 21 prospects

When I wrote this list I didn’t want to have to same 21 people everyone else has, so I tried to make a few interesting choices at the expense of some safe picks.  If you will, take notice of the lack of any 2B/SS/3B prospects and pray that Crosby has a healthy year and the A’s resign Ellis.  If you don’t like your favorite minor leaguer being left off...well...that’s what the comments are for; I can take a little criticism.

  1. Daric Barton (1B/DH) – Out of all the A’s prospects he’s the most likely to succeed.  Somewhere Dan Johnson is crying.
  1. Carlos Gonzalez (CF/RF) – One of the scrubs from the Danny Haren trade.  He can hit for average, punt 30 home runs a year, has the best outfield arm the A’s have seen since Mark Kotsay was healthy, and given a good spring training could be the A’s 2008 starting centerfielder.
  1. Trevor Cahill (SP/RHP) – The A’s organizational pitcher of the year throws in the low 90’s and will likely start the year in A+ Stockton.
  1. Brett Anderson (SP/LHP) – Another scrub from the Haren trade.  He’s been described as a left-handed Trevor Cahill and some people think his ceiling could be Mark Mulder.  He’ll likely start the year in Stockton’s rotation.
  1. Landon Powell (C) – I wanted to write more about Powell, but I tore my ACL while typing this and had to stop.
  1. Javier Herrera (CF) – The poster boy for the A’s injury plagued minor league system.  If he could stop injuring himself he would be the A’s center fielder by ’09 and has the tools to be an All Star.
  1. Corey Brown (OF) – He had the most home runs in short season Vancouver since Dan Johnson.  Let’s hope that’s not a sign of things to come.
  1. Chris Carter (DH) – Man, these "Danny Haren" prospects keep infesting my top 21.  You’d almost think this might have been a good trade.  Carter has the best power bat in the A’s system but he profiles as a future DH.
  1. Henry Rodriguez (SP/RHP) – He’s surpassed Craig Italiano as the best power arm in the system.  His control issues keep him from being on the same developmental level as Cahill and Anderson, but he should start in A+ Stockton anyway (I’m really starting to like this rotation.)
  1. Greg Smith (SP/LHP) – Soft tossing scrub from the Haren trade who’s known for his intelligent pitching tactics.  He could top out anywhere from Lenny DiNardo to Jamie Moyer.
  1. Vince Mazzaro (SP/RHP) – The only pitcher of the "little three" who managed to stay healthy last year.  He has the stuff to be good if he can fix some control problems.
  1. Sam Demel (RP/RHP) – The top relief prospect on this list throws in the low 90s and has the stuff to be a future closer.
  1. Jared Lansford (SP/RHP) – The son of A’s third baseman (and Giants hitting coach) Carney Lansford, went from pitching shut outs in 2006 to detaching a muscle from a bone in his chest and sitting out 2007.  Could start in A+ Stockton.
  1. Sean Doolittle (1B) – Could be a future gold glover at first.  The biggest knock on him was his lack of power for a first baseman, but after some adjustments to his stroke he showed more power in the instructional league.
  1. Craig Italiano (SP/RHP) – This 97 mile-an-hour right hander lost his 2007 season to a concussion after trying to catch a come-backer with his head.
  1. Jerry Belvins (RP/RHP) – Pitched well for team USA this year.  He is a candidate to start the year in the A’s bullpen.
  1. James Simmons (SP/RHP) – He has the best control of any pitcher in the A’s system, but the development of some plus off speed pitches will be the difference between developing into Joe Blanton or Jason Windsor.
  1. Mike Mitchell (RP/RHP) – Would have started 2007 in the A’s bullpen if it wasn’t for a season ending injury.
  1. Arnold Leon (SP/RHP) – Signed by the A’s for six figures in the Mexican League.  He’ll likely join a crowded but good rotation in A+ Stockton this year.
  1. Jermaine Mitchell (OF) – He’s the best 5-tool outfielder the A’s have this side of Javier Herrera.  Will finally escaping from the hitter’s purgatory that is Vancouver and Kane County help his bat?
  1. J.D. Pruitt (OF) – He broke all sorts of records for OBP (and being hit by pitches) in Vancouver last year.  He had two really good months in June and August where he posted a 1.055 and .895 ops, and two bad months in July and September where he posted a .605 and .222 ops.  Despite the inconsistent play he still ended the year with a .460obp.
Poll
Who Will Be the 2008 Starting Centerfielder?
Mark Kotsay
97 votes
Chris Denorfia
63 votes
Todd Linden
159 votes
Carlos Gonzalez
53 votes

372 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 113 comments

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Comments

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Not an Aaron Cunningham fan, I see

A couple of Andrews missing, too, I'd say-- Bailey is definitely in the top 10 somewhere, and Carignan was dominant in both college and the pros last season.

Guys I'm not a fan of:

Herrera-- eh. All hype and no substance.
Lansford-- got a free vacation in Hawaii, and rewarded the team by sucking pond water.
Pruitt-- might be the best carnival attraction on a baseball diamond since Eddie Gaedel, but unless Oakland is going the "publicity stunt" route, I can't see how he could possibly even make it to AA ball.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 27, 2007 4:00 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I like Cunningham, but I only had 21 spots.

Herrera - I'm giving him one more year, I keep hearing the words "possible future all-star" from people who've seen him play, and I tend to believe where there is smoke there is fire.

Lansford - Yea he stuck, but he hadn't pitched in a year and was recovering from a detached muscle in his chest.  It's painful to strain a muscle in your chest, so I can only imagine what recovering from a detached one must feel like.  He was pitching no-hitters before his injury, and I'm not ready to give up on him yet.

Pruitt - He actually hit well to go with the walks a HBP's in June and August.  He might be a longshot, but for a team build around "undervalued" players and prospects, I think he fits in.

by Threepwood XX on Dec 27, 2007 4:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Pruitt hit .211

with a .311 slugging percentage. In Low A ball.

I'm not giving up on Lansford, I just don't think he's a top 21 prospect... might be top 30, I don't know.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 27, 2007 4:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Pruitt

I'll give you that Pruitt had a low slugging percentage, but OBP is mathematically worth 4x more then SLG%.  Also Vancouver is a pitchers park and can sap power numbers for players.  He does have a good eye, and even if he doesn't develop power and only hits for average with a .380slg% he could still make it to AA and put up an ops in the high .700 range.

by Threepwood XX on Dec 27, 2007 5:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree

I don't think SLG is worth 1/4 of OBP. I think you really underestimate SLG.

by Zonis on Dec 27, 2007 6:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I've always heard ...

OBP is worth about 1.4x Slg.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 27, 2007 8:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Moneyball

In the book Moneyball Michael Lewis, the author, said 4.  He used the reasoning that a OBP of 1.00 will make an inning go on forever, but for slg% you'd need a s 4.00slg% to do the same thing.

Therefore, every point of slg% is worth 1/4 of a point of obp.

by Threepwood XX on Dec 27, 2007 9:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

that's just theoretical math

In the reality, what we have seen, is most decent pitchers will go along with the A's not giving their hitters any decent strikes to hit, gambling that they will get their three outs before the leadoff walker gets home.
Aided by a weak Crosby ground out and a Chavez popup.

by connie mack on Dec 28, 2007 12:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't recall that in Moneyball ...

but it's flat out wrong.

You'd only need to slug 1.000 (an endless string of singles/walks) in order for the inning to last forever.

But aside from this ridiculous, extreme hypothetical -- lets think about what that would mean in real life.

If OBP was worth 4x Slg, that would mean that a walk was exactly equally valuable to a home run ... now that doesn't seem quite right, does it?

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 28, 2007 1:20 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i thought it was either 2 or 3 x

according to depo in moneyball.
i hope he said 2 and not 3, because that just seems totally off.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Dec 28, 2007 1:40 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's 1.8
It starts with rule No. 1 from coach Don Nelson: Shoot the ball.

by mikeA on Dec 27, 2007 11:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

1.8 is my BAC
Believe it or not, it felt wonderful when blood spurted out. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 28, 2007 5:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I used the Google to do some research.

First, I misread Moneyball, and the actual ratio is 3:1 obp vs. slg%.  It's my mistake and I take responsibility for being wrong.

From what I gathered, every team is different but the actual value of obp to slg% can go from 1.2:1 to 3:1 depending on the team with the league average changing over time, but the current league average being near 2:1.

So in conclusion, everyone was right but me.  Drat!

by Threepwood XX on Dec 28, 2007 8:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No, not everyone but you -

Everyone but you and Cindi. Though where she got "19:3 ratio" is beyond me.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 28, 2007 8:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

19:3

I think that's the alcohol to mix ratio of a well made Long Island Ice Tea

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 28, 2007 9:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Or was it

"black hair with blonde highlights" conditioner? Or maybe farm animals to humans --

Never mind.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 28, 2007 9:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Proverbs

A man's own folly ruins his life,
yet his heart rages against the Lord.

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 28, 2007 10:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There's no way it's 4

If Moneyball said 4, then that's a reason not to take Moneyball seriously.

How much OBP is worth relative to SLG, depends on the context / offensive environment.

In the modern environment, ~1.8 is commonly used.

Baseball Prospectus uses 1.5 for their EQA / EQR / BRAA calculations; their reasoning is that 1.5 is more applicable across all eras.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Dec 28, 2007 4:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ladies and Gentleman, I think we have Ketih Law

posting with us.

Andre GA: But, is it fair to hold OBP against all the other accomplishments that Dawson made. Would that be anywhere near holding strikeouts against Reggie Jackson?

Keith Law: (1:16 PM ET ) Of course it's fair. Of all the mainstream stats, none is as important when telling us about a hitter's performance as OBP is. Strikeouts, for a hitter, are largely irrelevant in evaluations of his past performance.

by theblackpearl on Dec 28, 2007 10:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I <3 Keith Law

An ESPN writer with a brain.  

Juan Pierre: 44 Million Dollars, Juan Pierre's 3.4 WARP3: Priceless

by Travis Buck Nuckin on Dec 29, 2007 11:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Um... Pruitt hits leadoff.

A .460 OBP is a .460 OBP.

I'll take it. Lots of folks have hit .220 or worse in Vancouver on their way to the bigs.

We should play Jack Cust at shortstop for a week, just so we can feel good about Crosby again.

by Ozzz on Dec 27, 2007 11:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Really?

I don't mean that in a sarcastic way, BTW. Can you think of someone?

(Also, shouldn't you be anti-Pruitt? A guy who gets hit by 35 pitches in 70 games or so is clearly at least badly warping, if not outright shattering, the rule about trying to get out of the way of pitches.)

I can't help thinking that at some point the umps are going to get tired of his "act" and start calling things like failure to avoid the pitch or batter in the strike zone.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 28, 2007 9:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I can think of many who floated around there.
Vancouver's only been in short season ball since 2001, so the sample size is small, but Landon Powell hit in the .230's his first season. Frank Martinez is considered a prospect by many, he hit .167.

Anthony Recker hit .233. Christian Vitters only hit .240 or so. Nick Swisher - .250. John Baker - .235. Mark Kiger - .244.

As for his 'cheating', I've sat behind him for dozens of games and while he does indeed squeeze the inside of the plate, he also gets buzzed a lot because of it - HBPs ensue.

But it would be careless to assume that entire .460 OBP is down to getting beaned 40 or 50 times. He knows the zone and swings when he needs to - and only when he needs to.

Do I think he's a top 25 prospect? No, not at all. But he's got a tool that few have, and he's got balls the size of grapefruits, which few have.

So assuming he learns a little about contact hitting, maybe develops some power to go with his frame, I think he'll be a damn fine piece of equipment going forward.

We should play Jack Cust at shortstop for a week, just so we can feel good about Crosby again.

by Ozzz on Dec 28, 2007 2:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

they might explain all the HBPs
Believe it or not, it felt wonderful when blood spurted out. @('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 28, 2007 5:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

But they get to first base
before the rest of him does.

<teabag's 1st base>

"SAFE!"

We should play Jack Cust at shortstop for a week, just so we can feel good about Crosby again.

by Ozzz on Dec 29, 2007 10:57 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I just can't see how

a guy can get HBP 34 times and have it all be because of pitchers lacking control (be it physical or emotional).

I know that umps are traditionally reluctant to call guys back to the box for failure to avoid a pitch (I'm remembering a particularly blatant example of this which Mark Ellis got away with in one of the games against the Red Sox earlier this season) but don't they have to start keeping a close eye on a guy when other teams start complaining about it?

He could always develop as a player, but right now he's not even a top 50 prospect. Somewhere along the way you have to be able to actually hit, or pitchers will just throw you gas down the middle and wait for you to make out on it.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 28, 2007 4:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well it was his first year, and they can only

learn one skill at a time, last year it was getting hit by the ball, this year it will be hitting the ball.

by theblackpearl on Dec 28, 2007 4:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Other teams did complain about it.
He broke the league record for HBPs so quickly, and had such an insane OBP so early, that other coaches did approach umps and demand they pay attention to whether he tries to avoid or not.

But the kid understands how to play it. He crowds, a pitch comes at him, he turns away from it and gets hit on the shoulder - what's the ump going to do? He turned and still got hit.

Trust me - he got nailed a few times and DIDN'T get the call too - but he's not only not afraid to get hit, but he also knows how to make it look like he's getting out of the way when he's kinda not so much trying so hard maybe so much.

The other thing that his game brings is unease from the pitcher. If he's crowding and you know he'll take a hit, sure, you can rock it down the center, but he's a BIG guy - if he turns on it, it's going a long way.

So maybe you pitch him outside - but because he's crowding, that's right in his wheelhouse.

His contact stats aren't great, admittedly, but as a lead-off man, he needs to get on base, no matter how it's done, and he does that. For mine, the more worrying thing than his lack of contact stats is his lack of steals.

If you're going to get on the bags that much, you have to do something with it.

We should play Jack Cust at shortstop for a week, just so we can feel good about Crosby again.

by Ozzz on Dec 29, 2007 11:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

sounds like how I played in little league

I got on base all the time because while I couldn't hit worth crap, I was small and walked all the time, and also crowded the plate and never bailed out.

Getting hit by pitches never bothered me for some reason.

by Zonis on Dec 29, 2007 10:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So it's more important for a hitter

to run fast than to actually be able to, you know, hit a baseball with a bat.

You've just summarized everything that's wrong with "traditional" baseball analysis in like two sentences.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 30, 2007 12:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Like I said

he sounds like ME playing little league, but somehow getting to pro ball.

In other words, he sucks.

by Zonis on Dec 30, 2007 3:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not really ...

it would be useful if he could steal bases at a high success rate -- and, while it may be a problem as he moves up in levels, if he can maintain his play, getting on base via BB and HBP, he could still be a useful player, despite poor contact skills.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 30, 2007 6:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Though, certainly ...

it would add more to his game to improve his contact rate than to improve his baserunning.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 30, 2007 6:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

In my book,

worrying more about something that's less important is wrong.

Somewhat apropos: I continue to find it bizarre to hear people (not talking about Oz here, at least not specifically-- it just came to mind) referring to things like bunts and steals as "fundamentals." What could be more fundamental than hitting the ball and pitching it so that it can't be hit?

It's the things like bunts, steals, hitting behind the runner, etc. that are gaudy extras. Sure, they're nice abilities to have-- once in a while they're useful, either because you have someone who's exceptionally talented at them or the situation calls for it-- but they're hardly indispensable, or fundamental in any sense. Hearing them called fundamentals is like some kind of bizarre Orwellian inversion.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 30, 2007 6:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

They're fundamentals ...

because they are fundamental skills taught to every little leaguer and anyone who is even remotely athletic enough to play at any given level should be able to do it effectively.

Hitting a baseball actually takes talent.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 30, 2007 7:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gaudy extras?
That's like saying speed is a gaudy extra for a wide receiver because his job is to catch the ball.

Bunts, hitting behind the runner, fouling balls off, sac flies, etc is all a PART of what makes good hitting.

Ask a coach if those are fundamentals or not. Hell, Matt Sulentic got held back in 2006 because "his fundamentals need work" (according to Liepmann), and he was hitting .330 at the time.

We should play Jack Cust at shortstop for a week, just so we can feel good about Crosby again.

by Ozzz on Dec 31, 2007 12:30 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No, they aren't

Look, I don't question that those tactics make some guys better hitters. I don't even question the wisdom of holding guys back to work on them. (If you think you can teach a guy something, that it will improve him as a hitter in a meaningful way, and that holding him back won't affect him adversely otherwise, then I'm not typically going to question the decision.) What I question is the reference to them as "fundamental" when, in fact, they are not necessary at all.

If a significant number of people can make a good career out of hitting without certain skills (such as base-stealing, or bunting, or what have you) then they are not, in any sense, fundamental. To my way of thinking, the fundamentals of hitting basically add up to the ability to make contact in a somewhat controlled fashion (which would, incidentally, cover something like fouling balls off).

Speed is not a fundamental skill of being a wide receiver. Jerry Rice had average speed, if that. Running precise routes (which Rice did) is a far more useful skill than raw speed.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 31, 2007 9:43 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

OK, so you're just obsessing on semantics ...

Fundamentals, in baseball, is a commonly understood term. It means the stuff players should have learned in Little League. It is understood to be the stuff in the game that does not necessarily require real talent or athletic ability.

Your definition is certainly more correct, based on any standard dictionary -- but the baseball definition is not incorrect.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 31, 2007 11:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So with that in mind:
The fact that JD Pruitt can get on base at a .460 OBP clip makes him a good player to have, even if he can't hit the ball. He's not fast, but he runs a precise route to 1st.

Got it. Thanks for proving my point.

We should play Jack Cust at shortstop for a week, just so we can feel good about Crosby again.

by Ozzz on Dec 31, 2007 12:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not exactly sure what your point is

If it's that he'll be valuable if he OPSes .460 at the major league level... well, yeah. Duh.

There's just no reason whatsoever to expect that he will actually do so. Players with high OBPs at low levels who don't actually display the (fundamental) ability to hit have a disturbing tendency to turn into Brant Colamarino.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 31, 2007 1:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd think that if he turns out
to be another Colamarino, considering his draft spot, that'd be considered a damn fine success.
We should play Jack Cust at shortstop for a week, just so we can feel good about Crosby again.

by Ozzz on Dec 31, 2007 4:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He's a role player.
Some guys are power hitters, some guys are utility infielders, some guys are basestealers.

I don't quite understand why you have a problem with that. Isn't a relief pitcher a role player? Would you prefer the starter has to pitch through nine?

If I'm setting a Major League roster, and you can point me to a guy who'll take walks, take beanballs, drop bunts and get on base at a .460 OBP tilt AND steal a base once he's there, well I'll be more than happy to say "you're leading off" to the next Rickey Henderson, thanks very much.

We should play Jack Cust at shortstop for a week, just so we can feel good about Crosby again.

by Ozzz on Dec 31, 2007 12:25 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Rickey Henderson knew how to hit the ball ...

If Pruitt doesn't learn to hit the ball from time to time, there's no chance that Major League pitchers will feel any need to throw him pitches that will allow him to trot down to first base.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 31, 2007 1:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And yet pitchers in college and his rookie season
...did exactly that.
We should play Jack Cust at shortstop for a week, just so we can feel good about Crosby again.

by Ozzz on Dec 31, 2007 12:50 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Pitchers in Low-A and the Gulf South Conference

tend to throw strikes more or less on accident.

Fun fact, there were exactly eighty seven called strikes against the Falcons in conference play during Pruitt's senior season.

(Okay, I made that up ...)

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 31, 2007 1:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I've never even heard

of the Gulf South Conference.

Considering that I'm a pretty big fan of college sports, that's impressive.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 31, 2007 1:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

It's D-II
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Dec 31, 2007 1:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree about Pruitt

keep promoting him until his act doesn't work.

by connie mack on Dec 27, 2007 8:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm pretty sure Herrera has substance

In fact, wasn't he busted for it?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 28, 2007 8:25 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Trying to be controversial... but..

some of the people placed where they are on the list is kinda...

First, Javier Herrera might likely fall off the list if he continues to fail to do anything. He's almost out of options!

Powell might not get back till July, and might not be able to catch again, making him a DH/1B. Not that great a prospect anymore. I like him, but even hope goes so far.

No Cunningham? Mitchell so low? And if you can still be so high on Herrera, you have to still be high on Sulentic, right?

by Zonis on Dec 27, 2007 4:01 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

There is no try.

Powell - I made the assumption he will still be able to catch when I placed him that high.  But you're right, if he can't come back as a catcher he goes from a blue chip catching prospect (when thin) with great defense and and very very good bat for the position, to a league average first baseman/DH.  If that were to happen he would immediately drop below Carter, Doolittle, and maybe even Hamblin on the depth chart.

Cunningham would have been where Pruitt was, but Pruitt had such an interesting year I really wanted to include him.

The reason I'm high on Herrera and not Sulentic is that Sulentic is a bat who can play in the outfield, while Herrera is an outfielder who also has a great bat.  Herrera can also hit above short season ball.

by Threepwood XX on Dec 27, 2007 4:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh yeah, a few mistakes

A- is not Midland, thats double A. A- is Kane County.

I thought Carney Lansford was a 3B. Infact his fielding stats say he played 2 games at 2B for the Oakland A's.

by Zonis on Dec 27, 2007 4:03 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

*cough* What mistakes? *cough*

I have no idea what you are talking about?  I don't see those two errors in my post.

by Threepwood XX on Dec 27, 2007 4:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Blah Blah Blah

Since we're making our own top prospect lists, I will go with my own, seeing as I am on a roll...

  1. 1B Daric Barton
  1. OF Carlos Gomez
  1. SP Trevor Cahill
  1. SP Brett Anderson
  1. 1B Chris Carter
  1. SP Henry Rodriguez
  1. SP James Simmons
  1. OF Corey Brown
  1. OF Jermaine Mitchell
  1. SP Arnold Leon
  1. RP Andrew Bailey
  1. RP Jeremey Blevins
  1. 1B Sean Doolittle
  1. OF Grant Desme
  1. SS Joshua Horton
  1. SP Craig Italiano
  1. OF Matt Sulentic
  1. RP Sam Demel
  1. OF Javier Herrera
  1. SP Jared Lansford
  1. SS Gregorio Petit

by Zonis on Dec 27, 2007 4:10 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I see you've already traded Joe Blanton

to the Mets.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 27, 2007 4:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

hahaha

sorry, I keep getting toosly outfielders with high "upside" that are generally considered overrated confused.

by Zonis on Dec 27, 2007 5:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I like this list better than the one in the diary

Though I think I'd have Petit higher. Not because he necessarily has a ton of upside, but he seems like a great bet to be a quality MLB utility guy at this point. There's value in that.

Also I'd have Doolittle lower, but that's only because I irrationally dislike him because I think he was such an uninspired pick.

RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.

by walk off bunt on Dec 27, 2007 5:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Carlos Gomez?

is he the Jairo Garcia version of Carlos Gonzales?

by vk on Dec 27, 2007 5:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

lol, even after pointing him out, I forgot him

Slot Aaron Cunningham right above Chris Carter.

by Zonis on Dec 27, 2007 6:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Outfield

Should be interesting to see which outfielder between Mitchell, Brown and Desme rise to the top.

by asfaninpismo on Dec 27, 2007 7:12 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

What the hey

I'll make a list of my own.

  1. Barton
  1. Gonzalez
  1. Cahill

--break--

  1. Corey Brown (he's "one missing piece" away from potential stardom)
  1. Simmons
  1. Bailey
  1. Cunningham
  1. Blevins
  1. Anderson
  1. Carter
  1. Rodriguez
  1. Leon (I feel like he should be higher somehow.)

--break--

  1. Petit
  1. J. Mitchell
  1. Italiano
  1. Melillo
  1. Powell (moves way higher if he can stay at C or even learn 3B)
  1. Mazzaro
  1. Recker
  1. Doolittle

--break--

  1. Ziegler
  1. Kilby

Quite a train wreck at the bottom there; I can't sort out the guys I picked from Madsen, Carignan, Demel and Mike Mitchell.

Other "near miss/top 30" guys: Travis Banwart, Grant Desme, Lansford, Herrera, Sulentic.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 27, 2007 11:06 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Why Blevins ahead of Anderson?
Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 28, 2007 5:31 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Blevins is in AAA and has pitched in the majors

Anderson is in A and pre-injury nexus.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 28, 2007 9:13 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Figured as much

Still, it's a little unusual to see a bullpen arm ranked ahead a quality SP canidate so I thought I'd ask.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Dec 28, 2007 9:22 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

MadDog

Is Michael Madsen not on any Top-20 List?  Dude went from A+/AA/AAA in one season, and played in the futures game last season.  No love?

by Colorado Fan on Dec 29, 2007 11:30 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Dude

Mark Madsen is "Mad Dog." I must defend the honor of Stanford basketball and bad dancing by objecting to this use of terminology.

I hate it when nicknames are re-used. It's irritating and nonspecific. Hearing LaDainian Tomlinson called "LT" is another pet peeve of mine. "LT" is Lawrence Taylor. Period.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 30, 2007 12:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Arnold Leon

One thing I've noticed is that people are really hyped about Leon.  I had him at 19, but on the other two lists in this thread he was at 10 and 11.  Scout.com just updated their top 50 list and didn't have him on the list at all.  He also wasn't on the Baseball Prospectus lists.

Are we over hyping him based on the novelty that Beane thought he was good enough to spend six figures on?

by Threepwood XX on Dec 28, 2007 12:35 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Scout is either not paying attention or idiots

I suspect the former, but you never know.

He's pitched very well in the approximate equivalent of AA ball at age 18. That's huge.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 28, 2007 9:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Were you able to find Leon's states?

Is he listed as Alex Leon on BA?

by pinkfloyd on Dec 28, 2007 10:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

His full name is Alex Arnold Leon; I think he goes by Arnold.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 28, 2007 12:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

international signings

He went out and signed three international prospects to six figure signing bonuses.  Both Shortstop Omar Castillo and Pitcher Franklyn Contreras are from Venezuela and will most likely spend another year there.

i had not heard of these other two, that's good news.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Dec 28, 2007 1:37 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Anthony Recker

I'm still sold on this guy as being a legit prospect.  After seeing some of the bombs he hit in Stockton and then struggling the first part of AA, i still think he can be very good offensively.  He's huge and has the power to make it. One of the games i was at he nailed a shot over te 405 foot sign and it was out by alot more.  

by AsBeTheWay on Dec 28, 2007 7:52 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I agree

I love him, I even did a scouting report on him in one of my previous Future Athletic Roundup columns.  If we the A's hadn't picked up five very nice prospects I think he might be in a lot of people's top 21 lists right now.

His poor performance in AA knocked him down a bit in my opinion, but if he can improve his AA numbers next year you'll start hearing his name again.

by Threepwood XX on Dec 28, 2007 4:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Lists are the zeitgeist

1.) 1B Daric Barton - His performance at AAA didn't overwhelm but given his age, excellent K/BB rate and superb finish there is reason to be very excited. Barton has managed more walks than strikeouts at just about every stop and has just enough pop.

2.) SP Trevor Cahill - I'm higher on him than most, given his excellent performance last season and his relative inexperience with pitching. His K and GB numbers at Kane County were absolutely phenomenal.

3.) OF Carlos Gonzalez - One of those rare toolsy guys that actually puts up the numbers. Eliminate his horrible April (210/250/346) and you get an excellent season in 07. If he can play center he's a godsend.

4.) SP Brett Anderson - The scouts may not drool over him, but his numbers are this past season (especially at South Bend) are most definitely drool worthy (59% GB rate, 8-1 K/BB ratio!)

5.) 1B Chris Carter - Excellent power and patience, only 20 years old this past season. Immediately becomes the teams best power prospect.

6.) OF Corey Brown - I worry about his high K rate but he has the power and patience combo to become a TTO star. He put up some great numbers in a carnivorous ballpark last season.

7.) SP James Simmons - I think he was vastly underrated in the original list. Many have a higher upside but Simmons is a virtual lock to be a member of the rotation in the near future. His performance at AA was exceptional for a pitcher fresh out of college.

8.) SP Henry Rodriguez - Based on his stuff, age and the fact that he struck out 25% of the batters he faced at Kane County last season.

9.) OF Aaron Cunningham - I think you guys are seriously underrating this guy. He's put up the numbers at EVERY stop including last season as a 21 yr old in AA. He hits a lot of line drives so I think BA will hold at higher levels.

10.) OF Grant Desme - We didn't get a good look at him this past season but he's a five tool guy who raked in college.

11.) SP Andrew Bailey - A personal favorite
12.) OF Jermaine Mitchell - Stop hitting groundballs!
13.) RP Jerry Blevins
14.) DH Landon Powell
15.) OF Matt Sulentic
16.) RP Sam Demel
17.) SP Arnold Leon
18.) RP Andrew Carignan - Could shoot up the list this season
19.) SP Craig Italiano
20.) SS Josh Horton - His K/BB numbers were absolutely absurd in college
21.) SP Greg Smith - He'll almost definitely be useful

by pinkfloyd on Dec 28, 2007 10:36 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Oops

Forgot Herrera. I'm not high on him despite all the hype, a lot of injuries and little in the way of tangible results. But I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and put him at 21, bumping Smith.

by pinkfloyd on Dec 28, 2007 10:38 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Can't see how you can put Horton over Petit

Petit's a legitimate glove whiz while Horton (I understand) may have trouble staying at short. He's also three levels ahead and only a year and a half older.

If he can learn to hit at the MLB level, he'll be a great player.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 28, 2007 12:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thats just it

I don't think he'll learn to hit at the MLB level. I do think he'll make a fine utility guy though. Maybe in hindsight he should have been included, given your point about age and level, but I'm one of the few who thinks Horton can eventually be an everyday player, even if it as a 2b.

by pinkfloyd on Dec 28, 2007 12:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

list

1 - Daric Barton
2 - Carlos Gonzalez
3 - Cahill/Anderson
4 - Anderson/Cahill
5 - James Simmons
6 - Henry Rodriguez
7 - Corey Brown
8 - Aaron Cunningham
9 - Chris Carter
10 - Andrew Bailey
11 - Jermaine Mitchell
12 - Sean Doolittle
13 - Landon Powell
14 - Vinnie Mazarro
15 - Arnold Leon

I LOVE the P in the system right now. Cahill is legit and one of the more under rated prospects in baseball. Bailey is going to be a horse. Demel/Carignan/Ray is a great trio of relief prospects. The lack of position prospects is less of a concern with Swisher/Suzuki/Buck and even a virtual lock of a prospect in Barton all at the ML level. Then you still have plus arms in Italiano/Lansford/Mazarro. The system is only about 20 deep, but its a great 20, imo

http://as-future.blogspot.com/

by blee1134 on Dec 28, 2007 12:35 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Who are these guys?

This seems like as good a thread as any to ask.

I happened to be looking at the 40-man roster the other day, and there are three names on there that I've either never heard at all or I've heard the name but know nothing about the guy.

  • Jeff Grey
  • Fernando Hernandez
  • Wes Bankston

Who are they and why are they on the roster? If they're good why haven't I heard anything about them? Are they just AAAA guys on hand to fill in when something goes wrong with the regulars? What circumstances, if any, might bring them to the Oakland team?

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 28, 2007 2:13 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Fernando Hernandez was a Rule 5 pick

out of the Chicago system, I think. He's still pretty young (22) so he'll probably serve an "apprenticeship" next year and then go back to the minors for more seasoning.

Wes Bankston was claimed on waivers from Tampa; he's a former top prospect who's had various struggles and injuries in the past couple of seasons.

Jeff Gray? Your guess is as good as mine. He was put on the 40-man to protect him from the Rule 5 draft. Stap me if I know why they bothered, though.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 28, 2007 2:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

More seasoning =

After a full year on the 25-man roster, we outright him to Sacramento, he spends a month with another club who claims him off waivers, then we claim him back when they waive him, then send him to Sacramento again?

"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 28, 2007 3:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Of course

Isn't that par for the course for Rule 5 picks?

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 28, 2007 4:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gray

He doesn’t impress at first glance, but taking a closer look he does a superb job inducing grounders, this is something the A's seem to be valuing more as of late

by pinkfloyd on Dec 28, 2007 5:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gray

Was a reliever in AAA for all of last year. I saw him pitch a couple times. Good velocity (consistently around 92-93), with average breaking stuff. He struggled sorta at the beginning of the season but towards the end of the season his peripherals rounded back out. (45/22 K/BB in 55 IP, 4.09 ERA)

He's not young (11/19/81 birth date), but he seems like he could do an average job of major league relief work, which is worth $3-5 million on the free market nowadays.

RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.

by walk off bunt on Dec 30, 2007 6:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Am I the only one to give Ziegler some love?

As everyone here is well aware, I'm hardly one to say lightly that someone's stats should be thrown out... but Ziegler's stats before this year should be thrown out, because he's completely redesigned his pitching style. He's literally not the same player he was previously.

I feel like you've got to give him the nod over guys who haven't pitched above A-ball yet. He could be the next Pat Neshek.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 28, 2007 2:16 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Ziegler

I do think Ziegler is much better then he used to be, I just don't think he's better then Demel, Belvins, and Mitchell.  With Meyer, Braden, and Smith also competing for for bullpen spots, Ziegler is stuck behind a lot of people on the depth charts.  There would have to be a massive amount of injury to the pen and rotation to get to him.

by Threepwood XX on Dec 28, 2007 4:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

BLEVINS

Blevins Blevins Blevins Blevins Blevins Blevins Blevins Blevins Blevins. If you even read only one of the 10 names I've listed, then you know there is no Belvins!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 28, 2007 6:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wait, wait, wait...

So what you are trying to tell me is there is another pitcher in the A's system named Blevins?  That sure is a funny coincidence, does Belvins know about this?

by Threepwood XX on Dec 28, 2007 8:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

which one?
It starts with rule No. 1 from coach Don Nelson: Shoot the ball.

by mikeA on Dec 28, 2007 8:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No, no!

Which One is a Shortstop playing for Kane County.  Belvins and Blevins are relievers.

by Threepwood XX on Dec 28, 2007 8:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Belvins actually DOES know about it,

but only because Bevlins told him.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Dec 28, 2007 8:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Snivel, Blevins
"Ten times thy self were better than ten Hattebergs" -- Monkeyball, channeling Shakespeare

by iglew on Dec 28, 2007 10:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Athletics.scout.com did there top 50

The Oakland A's Top-50 Prospects
as of 12/27/07

  1. Daric Barton
  1. Carlos Gonzalez
  1. Brett Anderson
  1. Trevor Cahill
  1. James Simmons
  1. Aaron Cunningham
  1. Andrew Bailey
  1. Chris Carter
  1. Sean Doolittle
  1. Jermaine Mitchell
  1. Corey Brown
  1. Javier Herrera
  1. Henry Rodriguez
  1. Grant Desme
  1. Vince Mazzaro
  1. Greg Smith
  1. Jerry Blevins
  1. Josh Horton
  1. Sam Demel
  1. Richie Robnett
  1. Mike Madsen
  1. Andrew Carignan
  1. Jared Lansford
  1. Jason Fernandez
  1. Landon Powell
  1. Anthony Recker
  1. Gregorio Petit
  1. Travis Banwart
  1. Craig Italiano
  1. Matt Sulentic
  1. Kevin Melillo
  1. Jeff Baisley
  1. Danny Putnam
  1. Justin Sellers
  1. Dan Meyer
  1. Danny Hamblin
  1. Graham Godfrey
  1. Ronny Morla
  1. Cliff Pennington
  1. Jason Windsor
  1. Jeff Gray
  1. Michael Richard
  1. Mike Mitchell
  1. Brad Kilby
  1. Brad Knox
  1. Nick Blasi
  1. Tom Everidge
  1. Shane Keough
  1. Myron Leslie
  1. Jason Ray

by theblackpearl on Dec 28, 2007 2:38 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

No love for the little guy

I would have expected Aaron Jenkins to pop up somewhere on this list. A 40% K rate is quite impressive anyway you slice it.

by pinkfloyd on Dec 28, 2007 4:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

He also walked a batter an inning

That is, as they say in the trade, a problemo.

cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 28, 2007 4:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Indeed

He's intriguing though, nonetheless

by pinkfloyd on Dec 28, 2007 4:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Keough isn't even with the A's anymore

is he? If I remember, wasn't he the "Ex-Athletic, arrested for drinking"

by Zonis on Dec 28, 2007 8:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's his pops, Matt Keough
cardinalprecepts.blogspot.com

by PaulThomas on Dec 28, 2007 10:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

lol

but should shane keough even make such a list?  

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Dec 29, 2007 11:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No

Dude's terrible.

(To answer bluntly.)

RagingHarden: Yeah if you get 20 starts out of me I'll be shocked. Like, I'll wreck my drawers.

by walk off bunt on Dec 30, 2007 6:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Poll results: a surprise?

Anybody else surprised to see 44% of those polled picking Todd Linden as our 2008 starting center fielder?  Is there a lot of thinking generally that this is going to happen?  Or is this just people not wanting to face the reality that it's going to be Kotsay?  Or is this just people reading the diary above and saying, "Linden--that's a good idea?"

Maybe I should write my own poll.  

Brainless Automaton #439

by rubin sierra on Dec 28, 2007 10:37 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

KNBR

The biggest motivator for me is hearing the Giants pundits on KNBR throw a fit if Linden actually succeeds.

by Threepwood XX on Dec 29, 2007 12:00 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

hilarious
What would be even more funny would be if all this campaigning actually helped him get the job down the road.  
Brainless Automaton #439

by rubin sierra on Dec 29, 2007 4:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I am really excited bout..

Brett Anderson
Trevor Cahill
James Simmons
Henry Rodriguez
Andrew Bailey

Could be some really nice arms in Green and Gold in a few years.

by Syphon on Jan 1, 2008 10:17 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

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