Billy Beane Hates Me
by Tyler Bleszinski on Dec 17, 2007 12:22 PM PST
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PrintNot really, but it would appear to be that way as he always seems to trade some of my favorite players right around my birthday every year. This year, he happened to trade my current favorite A's pitcher actually ON my birthday. I happened to be out all day on Friday celebrating my birthday at Disneyland with my wife and daughter when my brother called me to let me know that Haren had been dealt. I immediately scrambled to the cell, calling Nico and baseballgirl to make sure that AN didn't explode on impact. Luckily it didn't.
I'm not going to analyze the deal because it's already been done to death, but I'm really hoping that Beane doesn't stop here. It's important that this not be done halfway. I'm not saying that Beane needs to do it immediately, especially if other GMs are low-balling him on Joe Blanton. Blanton can be a number two starter, especially if a National League team picks him up. Even if Beane has to package Street and Blanton to get the better package, then he should do it.
As for what Beane got in return, Kevin Goldstein goes into detail of the package at Baseball Prospectus. The conclusion is the part I wanted to share more than anything.
Goldstein is very high on both Gonzalez and left-handed pitcher Brett Anderson. He calls Anderson instantly the "best pitching prospect in the system." Gonzalez, in particular, he calls a five-star prospect (five being the best) and the only prospect in the A's system he considers better is Daric Barton.
I do like how the trade shaped up. Six for two is a nice return. And I say that as one of the biggest Haren fans on AN. I'm not terribly excited about watching a team that doesn't have a shot in hell in 2008, but at the same time, the A's needed absolutely everything to break right for them to have a shot in 2008. baseballgirl and I were talking about this one Friday. Did we really want to see Haren lose another 1-0 game? The offense had gotten so abysmal that it needed to essentially be rebuilt from the ground up and the most valuable asset the A's have right now is great, young and cheap starting pitching. That can bring back a killing in return, so I don't blame Beane for jumping on it.
I'm excited about the prospect of seeing players like Buck, Barton, Suzuki and now Gonzalez grow up in green and gold. And I do believe that this will be the last time that we see something like this for the A's for a long time simply because the A's are aiming to build a very good team in anticipation of opening a new stadium in 2011 or 2012. I'm not trying to put a rosy shine on something that really sucks, but as a longtime fan, I am finally hopeful that there is a light at the end of the tunnel of turnover for the A's. I know that Cisco Field is hardly a sure thing at this point, but I am optimistic that the tide is finally going to turn and we're going to see this rebuilding process build towards something more tangible and longer-term. That's what a new stadium will do.
And there is no other GM that I would rather have at the helm managing a rebuilding process than Billy Beane. Even if he ruins my birthday every year.
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aw crap
what if he trades someone when i'm at disneyland next week?!?!?
It could always be worse
They could trade a someone to the team closest to Disneyland.
The rich gets richer I guess.
Eat the rich!
by oaklandSMASH on Dec 17, 2007 3:19 PM PST up reply actions
happy birthday to my favorite A's blogger
best wishes, BB
(seriously, I've seen some unfortunate A's things happen on my birthday...such as Harden making a long-awaited start, but injuring himself in the middle of the game.)
I guess Beane did get Durazo
a few years ago on my birthday and I loved that guy, so maybe it all evens out in the end.
Thanks for the birthday wishes ;-)
by Tyler Bleszinski on Dec 17, 2007 12:35 PM PST up reply actions
Ive been 50/50
on My birthday, Its October 6, so that always falls during the first round of the playoff's. I think the worst loss on my birthday was 2003 Game 5 where we lost the series to the "Cowboy up" Red sox. But in 2006 the A's clinched the series, and the sweep over the Twins so that was rockin. I just can't wait to see the next A's team kick some ass in the post season on my birthday.
I, of course, am the monkey to call
... when one does want AN to explode on impact.
Yeah
but you won't give me your number. Something bout your banana not getting great reception.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Dec 17, 2007 12:34 PM PST up reply actions
you have my banana confused with Nico's
1 800 666 5397
Beane speaks about trade...
by athleticsBB4life on Dec 17, 2007 12:51 PM PST reply actions
the good quotes are all from chavez
"It's going to be an uphill battle for sure. But I know that just like everything Billy has done since I've been here, somewhere down the line it's going to benefit the organization as a whole."
"It would have been a huge risk to go out next year with the same team we had last year and try to compete. I think Billy's doing the right thing, absolutely."
More defeatism from Chavez
I'm sure he thinks about this stuff every time he comes to bat with the bases loaded. That way he can make sure to be as unclutch as possible by popping up on the first pitch.
Obviously the A's should have replaced him with David Eckstein.
[/sarcasm]
As much
as a lot of people rip on Chavez, I like how he tells it like it is. None of this wishy washy, cliche BS that mostly every player spews. Eric saw what most of us saw and that was that we had about a 5% chance of winning the division next year.
by Helloooo 1st on Dec 17, 2007 3:14 PM PST up reply actions
Agree, his comments
are worth much more than most. He tries to be honest, even if it may sound more "balanced" than honest.
Nine-ten years in the majors. Wow! Time flies.
by One won lost won on Dec 17, 2007 4:28 PM PST up reply actions
is this new news, old news, or Urbanization?
"Harden not yet recovered from the strained right shoulder that cost him most of 2007"
The other reports we've seen have been that he had a cortisone shot for continued right biceps tendinitis, but no one had said anything about his shoulder yet.
Does it matter?
The guy is a walking medical catastrophe. The exact (putative) medical problem du jour is just a symptom of his generally screwed up throwing arm.
Growing old
is going to be very ungraceful for Rich Harden. At the rate he is going, he will be in a wheel chair by the time he turns 40.
Biceps tendinitis
is a shoulder issue.
Biceps brachii crosses the shoulder joint: the long head of the biceps orinates from the glenoid labrum and acts as a stabilizer and humeral head depressor.
UGHH, the long head originates
i don't get it
i wanted to vote yes, but i don't think the offense is terrible, nor do i think it's getting worse. i'm a bit confused by that poll option...
so considering i have been pushing for bonds for the last year, i had to go with my second choice, no. but even on that one i don't get what going to the ALCS two years ago has to do with the decision...
Most people would say
that the A's offense has gotten progressively worse year after year, especially the last couple of seasons. Beane himself said that in a few different interviews last year. And yeah, it would probably have been marginally better this year with a whole year of Barton and Suzuki, but with young talent, there's no guarantee.
The A's going to the ALCS a year ago last October means that they are not that far removed from being a contending team.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Dec 17, 2007 1:03 PM PST up reply actions
yeah but two years is a long time
and the a's got lucky in terms of w-l record that year.
this lineup is quite solid at like 6-7 of 9 positions, and of course we could always add bonds (even now!)...
and we have more room to meet his asking price!
I agree with your initial assessment -- but isn't the problem that the pitching is getting worse?
Harden's setbacks seem to be having setbacks, Gaudin got the Chavez 2-for-1 surgery bluelight special, Duchscherer is a massive question mark, Street has to be considered a question mark, Blanton seems unlikely to match his '07 perf, Embree's age and inconsistency have to catch up with him eventually -- and those are all the good pitchers.
i agree
and even if chavez, crosby and kotsay(!) were not fully healthy, the a's have good backups at those positions (and also at c and 1b), whereas the pitching situation was a mess after haren and blanton.
my solution for this
year is i'm going to put us in a division w/ pitt kc tb and wash. i am only looking at the records of those 4. you gotta believe.
They ought to have two divisions like soccer
soccer=the real "football".
The best teams are in the "premier" league, and the rest are in the "second tier" league. All year long, only the teams in each "league" play each other. End of the season, the best team in the "second tier" league joins the "premier" league, and the worst team in that league is sent to the "second tier" league for next season.
...Put that together with the fact that I favor a return to the "balanced schedule"! And, no "interleague" unless you want a two week exhibition (not counted in the standings) promo schedule just for revenue during the All-Star break.
by One won lost won on Dec 17, 2007 4:35 PM PST up reply actions
I'm still not sold on the rebuilding idea...
...but you're right, I think, about the offense being horrible and needing something to get it going again.
Tonight this fool's halfway to heaven....
"And just a mile outta hell. And I feel like I'm coming home."
Geez, louise, how maudlin can one post be? I mean not only are there the details of Blez and his family at Disneyland, but then the guy has to cap it off with a "there's no-one else I'd rather manage a re-building process than Billy Beane." Seriously, I think I'm going to have to wring my clothes as they were soaked by all the sentimentality that Blez conjured up here.
Which should tell you just how much I loved this post. :-)
I could not agree more, Blez. Part of me is definitely sad to see Dan go and to know that, for my first season as an A's season-ticket holder, I'll most likely be watching a team lose a heck of a lot more often than it wins. But then I find myself thinking of the haul of prospects that we were able to pick up. I think of how I knew next to none of the names when the deal was announced, but now, having read about each and everyone of them, I eagerly anticipate watching them develop. I think about how even if several of them don't pan out, it's still mighty impressive that we were able to pull off a two-for-six exchange. And I think about how, in some ways, this is my favorite part of following a team.
Don't get me wrong, I think that free agency has a valuable role to play in the game and I have nothing but fond memories of watching The Big Hurt in green and gold. And yes, I do wish that it could have been us signing, say, Torii Hunter to a fat contract. But there's also something to be said for the joy of watching a team develop, to see guys who have come up through the minors turn into exciting professionals. Perhaps my favorite moment of the 2007 season was watching Travis Buck, a guy whom I had decidedly tempered expectations for coming into the year, turn into someone whose at-bats carried the utmost anticipation. It was, in many ways, not so different from how I felt watching a scrawny kid named Hudson toe the rubber in his first few starts in July of 1999. And to then watch that Hudson kid's efforts matched by that Chavez guy over at third and even, for one year anyway, the young T-Long in center, to see a team grow up together and grow to believe that they can compete and win together at this level, well that was straight-up magic.
So yes, I too don't expect a lot from 2008. But I also believe better days are shining through.
Oh and Blez? Has Maya taken a shine to Raffi or am I just projecting too much of my own background onto your comments to Monkeyball? Because I swear to god, you merely mentioning that his banana doesn't get great reception was enough to get "Banana Phone" stuck in my head. Which kind of killed the Springsteen vibe I was trying to work through this comment, but hey, who can resist the Banana Phone?
Is this trading everyone shit ever gonna end?
Once a player gets good are we always gonna trade them? Is there hope in the future that we might not trade everyone? Cause I honestly don't know how much of this I can take, it makes me want to hibernate as a baseball fan cause when the A's suck I just hurts too much to watch baseball. I really hope that there is some light at the end of the tunnel because I do not want a repeat of the 1998 A's
by 3Chavy3 on Dec 17, 2007 1:38 PM PST reply actions
No, and it's getting worse!
It's a terrible cyle. We trade away a star for a slew of prospects and hope one turns out to be good. When one does turn out to be good, we trade him for another batch of prospects and hope one turns out to be good.
This isn't reloading, this is simply putting out a product designed to make the A's organization money. All the A's care about is making money, they put out a team that is just good enough and with just enough talent to keep you interested and buying tickets.
I agree somewhat...
at some point BB has to stop his revolving door policy. At what point do we completely destroy any winning culture and get guys counting down until they can leave OAK? How many games have been lost or minor injuries made more because of a) loss of confidence in the team or b) continually hearing your name in trade rumors. I don't think you can answer that question but the bottom line is people are people and as much as this is a business, people do care.
If I was Street, I wouldn't sign a long term deal now that the ace of the team, a friend of his, is gone and let's be honest it'll take a miracle before we can even ponder being competitive before 2010 or more likely 2011. And even if he does that is no guarentee he won't be traded. I hope I am proven wrong but the funny thing about prospects is that they may turn out better than expected or worse. I'm just seeing a lot of what ifs in the Haren trade. The major objection, at least from me, is that BB didn't set out to get what he wanted which was people he could stick on the 40 and help contribute immediately. We still have no way to make up for the departure of Danny.
The only positive I see is that while the As are in the cellar for the next couple of years, they gave Danny a shot to win a WS. Let's be honest, BB was going to move him (and said so in interviews about his desire to part with him) and for whatever reason had zero respect for him or what he brought to the team. It was (my opinion) a move for move's sake. It's been widely pointed out he should have waited and I don't buy there is a bigger move coming. We all thought this with Blanton going to LAD and that so far has not panned out.
The big winner in all of this is AZ who has a WS winning team on paper, BB's ego who moved STL's guy, and the OAK seats who don't have to deal with butts putting pressure on them while sitting down. We can hope for everything to turn out for the best but I'm facing reality that this could be the start of a long period of losing, well after the opening of the new stadium. Once again, I'd like nothing more than to see the As prove all of my prose wrong and win in 2008... but alas I just don't see it.
by AsWin on Dec 17, 2007 2:24 PM PST up reply actions
Alright, this has to be taken apart
At what point do we completely destroy any winning culture and get guys counting down until they can leave OAK? How many games have been lost or minor injuries made more because of a) loss of confidence in the team or b) continually hearing your name in trade rumors. I don't think you can answer that question but the bottom line is people are people and as much as this is a business, people do care.
I can answer that question: zero. Every team has players who have various psychological issues, be they fear of getting traded, fear of getting sent down, apathy after signing "the big contract," anger at the manager, or whatever. I won't go so far as to say the effect is zero, but I'll certainly argue that no one is consistently better or worse at it.
If I was Street, I wouldn't sign a long term deal now that the ace of the team, a friend of his, is gone and let's be honest it'll take a miracle before we can even ponder being competitive before 2010 or more likely 2011. And even if he does that is no guarentee he won't be traded.
The point of signing a long term deal before hitting free agency is not, with rare exceptions, to ensure that a player will remain with a certain team. The team can keep him if it wants to through the arbitration years anyway. It's to protect against the risk of injury. The obvious example here is Harden. Had he stayed uninjured, he would have been bizarrely underpaid relative to someone putting up those numbers on the free market, and probably would have gotten a lot more in arbitration as well. But he got hurt, and now he's guaranteed to come out of baseball with enough money to live pretty comfortably on if he can't make a comeback.
The major objection, at least from me, is that BB didn't set out to get what he wanted which was people he could stick on the 40 and help contribute immediately. We still have no way to make up for the departure of Danny.
I don't know where you got this impression, because it's severely mistaken. Beane's goal was to restock the farm system with high-ceiling talent, not to immediately replace his top players. Maybe Eveland will turn out OK and maybe he won't, but he clearly wasn't the centerpiece of the deal even from the pitching side (that was Anderson).
Let's be honest, BB was going to move him (and said so in interviews about his desire to part with him) and for whatever reason had zero respect for him or what he brought to the team. It was (my opinion) a move for move's sake.
I'm trying to be tactful here, but there's simply no polite way to say this: this is a series of blatant lies. Beane said nothing about his "desire to part with him"; in fact, he repeatedly emphasized that the team had not resolved the question of whether to rebuild or not. The thing about "zero respect" is pure libel, fabricated from the recesses of your imagination. I've never seen him say a single negative thing about Haren.
It's been widely pointed out he should have waited and I don't buy there is a bigger move coming. We all thought this with Blanton going to LAD and that so far has not panned out.
I can't make head or tail of this. He just made an 8-player deal-- of course there isn't a "bigger move coming." Blanton probably will be traded. He will probably not be traded to the Dodgers, but there seems to be robust bidding on the part of jilted Mets and Mariners clubs at the very least.
As for the "should have waited" thing, if grover counts as "widely", yes, it's been widely pointed out. Seeing as how not a single one of the professionals who actually analyze this sort of thing has, to my knowledge, said anything of the sort, I'm going to say that it hasn't been nearly as "wide" as you claim.
The last paragraph is just defeatism, so I'll leave you to your maudlin opinions.
It's either your prolific output
or your conspicuous royal blue fur.
I can't decide which.
this team will not make people buy tickets
and the A's do not deserve to have good attendance.
by 3Chavy3 on Dec 17, 2007 2:25 PM PST up reply actions
I love seeing Haren Pitch
I buy every single one of his starts.
I love seeing Harden Pitch
I buy every single one of his starts.
interestingly enough...
even in our ALCS year, attendance declined from the previous year, and has been declining since its peak in 2003, regardless of what and who's on the field and their success:
- 2,133,477
- 2,169,811
- 2,216,596 (AL Avg. 2,191,745)
- 2,201,516
- 2,109,298
- 1,976,625 (AL Avg. 2,458,741)
- 1,921,844 (AL Avg. 2,527,968)
I'm sure the tarp effect skews this somewhat, but i still wouldn't necessarily associate interest in tickets with success, well not at least for the present (Mt. Davis) A's.
Even the early Moneyball - Big 3 - Giambi / Tejada, star studded teams of 2001 nowhere duplicated the initial success of the first coming of the Bash Brothers w/ Stewart, Welch, Sanderson/Moore, etc. Of course, this team was dominant and won 3 AL Pennants while winning one WS.
- 2,287,335
- 2,667,225
- 2,900,217 (AL Avg. 2,166,590)
- 2,713,493
- 2,494,160
by ST on Dec 17, 2007 4:05 PM PST up reply actions
I would include the postseason numbers
since they certainly bring more revenue, and Beane has in the past said that getting into the postseason does help raise payroll. I still remember him saying during the 2004-05 offseason that they couldn't raise payroll -- as they had each preceding year -- because they didn't make the playoffs in 2004 (his phrase:" the product was flat.")
The first significant drop in attendance during the regular season was 2006.
As I noted,
in 2006, the "tarp effect" probably plays some havoc with that drop, especially for the usually Mt. Davis Sellout type of games with the Yankees, Giants, etc. Still, for a team that finally made it to the ALCS, attendance was highly disappointing...
by ST on Dec 17, 2007 4:52 PM PST up reply actions
A's box office gross went up
between 2005 and 2006, even though the ticket sales decreased. The tarp caused a noticeable increase in average price paid for a ticket.
fair enough...
i would do a gross/net revenue, but those figures are all but locked up in baseball executive safehouses. However, one facet you also have consider is the delta between avg. league attendance vs. ours. While we are basically stagnant (regardless of our success again), league wide, attendance has blossomed to unprecedented figures...
by ST on Dec 17, 2007 5:37 PM PST up reply actions
13k fewer seats ...
times 3 games v Red Sox, 3 games v Yankees, 3 games v Giants, 4 fireworks games = more or less the difference between 2006/0007 and the average of the previous 5 years.
Look at the Yankees and all their resigns
Mariano Rivera, Posada.
How many catchers (perhaps the most important position) have the Athletics had since Posada joined the Yankee club?? That sez it all....
by One won lost won on Dec 17, 2007 4:37 PM PST up reply actions
the more and more i think about this trade
the more and more I like it. I mean, first of all, Blez is right, we weren't a sure thing for the playoffs next year either, we could be in the same situation as this year with all of our players dropping into the injury abyss. As well, Gaudin just had surgery and Haren's year was probably not going to be repeated in the AL. I mean, Haren is good, don't get me wrong, but I think that he'll regress slightly this year. Therefore, Beane does an awesome job selling high on his best player and getting the most in return, rather than waiting until next year and possibly not getting the same haul. We are going to be so stocked if we sell off our other players that I think when this team gets good again, it will be far superior to the '06 version. Also, and this is unlikely, if we don't move any other players, i think we still have a team that, with a few lucky breaks, could make the playoffs. There have been wilder things in baseball, like the Dbacks making the playoffs last year despite a horrid pythagorean record. Anyway, thats just my two cents.
by maffew @ Athletics Nation on Dec 17, 2007 2:58 PM PST reply actions
Blah the Trade Sucks
Why not trade for a REAL young talent? Why didn't we get Stephen Drew? If we got someone from Arizona that was any good RIGHT NOW i wouldn't mind so much? But did we get any of Arizona's great young guns of TODAY?
NO.
Did they get our great young pitcher of today for some players that may be good one day?
Yes.
We lost out on this one.
But it's all about next year
Ya I know, it's not about getting talent this year because we are going to lose anyway.
Better sell off our great stuff for today for the chance of MAYBE being good in 3 years?
No thanks, I'd rather go down with the best product we can have for 2008, rather then thowing in the towel, for not just one year but what sounds like till 2010!
I mean jesus, this trades basically kills us for this season and for at least two years, and even then, there is not guarentee that any of these guys will pan out.
Ridiculous.
I still can't believe we couldn't get a prospect of today? Someone like Drew/Tulo/Delmon/Gordon/Butler/Lincicum/A.Miller/Joba/Ellsbury.
In my mind those are prospects of the future, not this rag tag bunch of what ifs.
Firstly...
The only reason you haven't heard of Gonzales is because he plays in Arizona's farm system. BA rated him the #18 prospect in all of baseball last year. You know who he was ahead of? LaRoche, Pelfrey, Garza, ADAM MILLER, Clayton Kershaw, JACOBY ELLSBURY, BILLY BUTLER, Joey Votto, Clay Buchholz, JOBA CHAMBERLAIN, and more. Oh, and by the way, he's probably gonna play centerfield.
Second - how do you know that this trade kills us for the season? What if nobody else is traded and Harden is 100% healthy and takes Haren's rotation slot? I don't think there's any doubt that Harden, at his peak, is a more talented pitcher than Haren. He's just never healthy. However, just for kicks we'll say that Harden is healthy all year and makes 35 starts, also lets say that Eveland (who we just got in the Haren trade) turns out to be a solid back end starter, and Dan Meyer is finally ready. That leaves Harden/Blanton/Meyer/Duchscherer/Eveland as the rotation. Really that might not be too bad.
Do I believe the 2nd part is going to happen? Not really, I'm sure that Beane is leaning more towards selling off our guys that can return solid prospects ie Blanton, Street, Ellis, and Embree. Honestly, I'm OK with it because I know that there is a rebuild happening for a purpose and we're not becoming the Giants, hopelessly throwing money at players and spending 95M per season on a 75 win team.
Or a WS performer
Taking jobs away in the world series and becoming the young face of the franchise.
note to self
Do not use DLD-type deadpan in front-page diary comments.
The problem is...
that you are dealing with what ifs. What if no one else moves. What if everyone is healthy. What if AZ's unwanted B level prospects that had no place to fit in the 2008 year turn out as expected or better. What if everyone on the Angels go on the DL..... What if California falls into the ocean and world poverty is solved overnight... what if everyone on AN wins $2M tomorrow... the list can go on and on. Others are looking at what is more likely. The bottom line is BB got quantity over quality and a bunch of "i hopes". Now if you are fine with trading our young ace who is the staff leader and has virtually no injury history for that (knowing the market for SPing) then fine; I'm personally not. BB should have held out for a Santana or Bedard like package even if it took another week or two to come about... or even half a season.
by AsWin on Dec 17, 2007 3:38 PM PST up reply actions
We were dealing with what ifs anyway.
What if Crosby was healthy and productive... and Kotsay... and Chavez... and Harden... and Street... and Buck... it works both ways. Take the gamble in 2008, and if the team gets hit with 785 injuries like last year, that's one season of Haren gone and his value is just a little lower because he's only signed for 2 more years.
Hell, a couple guys over at The Hardball Times think that the package Beane got is comparable to the Santana packages that have been rumored.
This boosts the Santana Offer
I would think.
Minn will just say, well if Haren is worth this much, then the greatest pitcher in MLB right now has got to be worth THIS much.
Personally, I'd rather have 3 years of Haren and take on no major salary problems, then 3 years of Santana and pay him 20M a year.
Secondly
You should also note that Arizona is totally stocked in the OF, and was dying to get rid of him in some sort of trade. So they were selling high on this guy because he was going to be blocked.
And we didn't even get their best young OFers! We got the one they wouldn't start.
As you noted the second half of what you mentioned isn't happening. And if it did, we still would be better with Harden/Haren/Blanton than this crap fest we have now, remember we didn't HAVE to trade Haren, not at all.
So this trade cements that we will suck this year, and that we have a crap shot of being okay maybe in 3 years.
I'd rather have Haren, or a ready to play stud right now!
because poor scouting/drafting and ...
pathetic injury management has left the farm system bereft of upper tier talent. Ergot, Beane didn't have the luxury of just trading Haren for a single stud prospect. He had to get quantity over quality to plug the plethora of holes that are now prevalent in the minors. That did, Beane had to go with the quantity over quality in hopes that at least two or three prospects can pan out at the major league level. I always worry about five-tool OFs that are labelled "as just this close to being the next Beltran if they can put it all together" - the list of failed prospects of this ilk is staggering - Mario Encarnacion, Javier Herrera, Jose Herrera, Juan Rivera, etc.
by Miggy on Dec 17, 2007 3:25 PM PST up reply actions
I'd rather have one stud than 5 maybes
I don't know that much about injury managment.
But, I'd rather have one full blown stud then the crop we got.
We couldn't get Stephen Drew for Haren straight up? Was it his contract? I mean shit, Drew fits in just perfect for us. Plus we can move Crosby to maybe 2nd and THEN we trade some like Ellis for a bunch of bargain bin prospects.
Arg, I hate this trade.
I tend to agree with you...
I was just explaining what Beane's rationale was. Its all great if you get back one stud prospect but if you have no other prospects to surround him in the next few seasons he will be kind of wasted.
by Miggy on Dec 17, 2007 3:47 PM PST up reply actions
You can hate the trade ...
it's your right ...
but I'm certainly glad you aren't running the team.
Just because you have heard of Stephen Drew doesn't make him all that much more of a sure thing than Gonzalez. Did you notice that Drew's numbers last year were pretty comparable to Bobby Crosby's?
Stephen Drew? The guy with the 72 OPS+
last season?
I wouldn't have traded Haren straight up for Drew, not a chance in hell.
Just like many Arizonans hate Stephen Drew?
Already?
No one-- ever-- is a "can't miss."
Chris Young had an OBP of under .300 last season. Does that mean he's doomed to suck forever? No, but it certainly raises the possibility that he might.
Stephen Drew had an OPS of under .700 this year. There's no way in hell I would trade Haren for him straight up.
God, the hubris here is incredible. You think that anybody you've heard of has to, by definition, be better than anybody you haven't heard of. Believe it or not, people who make a job out of watching baseball players know who these guys are, even if you don't.
Hubris?
Interesting choice of words PaulThomas after attacking someone for their opinion. You may not value Drew highly but others can, and should have a different view. Not everyone is going to agree with you and I know it's not my response you were commenting on but all I see in the last few posts is you attacking people for their viewpoints. We get it, you have rigid opinions.. newsflash: others do to. This is discussion board, feel free to discuss not attack. And I'm through with this subject.. I felt somebody had to say something about your random insults lately.
by AsWin on Dec 17, 2007 4:23 PM PST up reply actions
I contest the claim
that anything I have said on this thread is an insult. I'll let others decide which of us is correct.
You honestly don't think..
saying "the hubris here is incredible" or calling someone's opinion "maudlin" is not insulting? Saying people are arrogant or that their opinions are foolishly sentimental is not insulting in your interpretation? Wow, ok... you know what I come here to share my thoughts on a team we all root for. Not to "win" or compete against other posters. Just wow.
by AsWin on Dec 17, 2007 4:50 PM PST up reply actions
I wouldn't call the "hubris" part
a personal attack ...
As far as the "maudlin" part ... let me consult my dictionary. I'll get back to you.
Maudlin:
maud·lin (môd'lĭn) Pronunciation Key
adj. Effusively or tearfully sentimental.
That is a very
Interesting word. Wow the wonders of AN never cease to amaze me. Im even learning new vocabulary here...lol
I actually learned something myself
looking it up... apparently it's a bastardized/archaic version of "Magdalene"... yes, that Magdalene.
Magdalene?
I guess that means you called AsWin a hooker. Dude, grover was right; you really are an asshole.
by BlameChannel53 on Dec 17, 2007 8:27 PM PST up reply actions
Magdalene? Asshole?
Alright, you all know it's coming...
Say it with me...
"Christ, what a..."
Apparently
"Magdalene" is actually pronounced "Maudlin" in England.
Well, personally
I come here to win and compete against other posters. Every evening, I do a round of calisthenics, tank up on energy bars and HGH, and log on to AN ready to wage rhetorical war. And if I happen to win an argument or successfully mock someone, I bellow heartily, beat my chest, and do an extended Ray Lewis dance routine right in my living room.
In all seriousness ...
There's a difference between aggressive argumentation and personal offense, and I think PaulThomas' post fits squarely into the former category. I thought, actually, that his point was applicable to much of the (emotionally charged) sentiment that has pervaded the site since the Haren trade. He didn't exactly say it delicately, but he certainly wasn't in the vicinity of offensive, either.
Summary: it's okay to post maudlin, hubristic diatribes about how Beane is an egomaniac and the A's are destined suck for years on end and the winning culture is kaput, but it's kind of self-defeating to get upset when someone refutes what is (sorry) an ill-considered perspective. Gotta bucky up and defend your position, or just concede the point. It's kind of a dodge, I think, to shift into martyr mode so swiftly.
Whether it was offensive or not
really depends on the reader.
Any "personal" judgements can be attributed as offensive, and IMO should not be included in an internet discussion.
I think PT's choice of language ...
was laughably over the top ... hubris? seriously? But his point was a good one and hardly a personal attack -- anyone who thinks that someone they haven't heard of isn't good for that reason is being a tad full of themselves. There are something like 4,000 minor league baseball players ... even the most informed on this site probably can't speak intelligently about more than something like 1-2% of them.
When I haven't heard of someone that I want to have a discussion about -- I look them up, read a bit about them, see what the experts say, see what I think of their numbers ... and then maybe I'll weigh in. I'm pretty damn full of myself, but it takes some pretty serious arrogance (or something a tad more insulting) in order to think one can speak intelligently about players that they haven't heard of without that.
Come now
Over-the-top overintellectualism is kind of my calling card...
I don't consider my day complete unless I've accused at least one person of being a crypto-Calvinist.
Let me revise ...
I think PT's choice of language was laughably over the top ... hubris? seriously? But would you honestly expect or want anything else from the guy?
Over-the-top overintellectualism?
That's a lot of overage.
I have to say, if using the words "maudlin" and "hubris" now constitutes over-the-top intellectualism, public schools must be in worse shape than I thought.
Lots of overage?
I'm actually a closet cricket fan and intellectual devotee of Friedrich Nietzsche.
Does it show?
Maybe
But you know, that line can get pretty blurry if you opt for the thin-skinned approach. What if I said I thought a dismissive tone was tantamount to a personal attack?
You, rfloh, could be accused on occasion of "talking down" to people. Same with me and many others. At a certain point, unless the other guy/gal has called you a moron (or some such thing), you just have to realize this is a forum for argumentation, and get over it. Especially if you're going to post rants that are, uh, less than thoroughly contemplated. PaulThomas didn't cross any lines here. His point was accurate and in context, not ad hominem. He could have put it, as I said, more delicately, but hell, AsWin wasn't exactly delicate in his initial "maudlin" rant about Beane's ego, the A's everlasting suckitude, etc. I find it sort of annoying, actually, when someone vehemently advances a demonstrably silly argument, then dashes behind the cloak of personal offense as soon as they're called on it.
Anyway. This probably shouldn't turn into a thread about the varying definitions of personal offense ... sorry about the partial hijacking.
Eh, I agree with you about
about me. Which is why I sometimes apologise, when I realise I'm behaving like an asshole. If you think I'm behaving like an asshole, I welcome your pointing it out.
Don't get me wrong, I found kingsac's rant basically worthless to anyone else other than kingsac.
I'm just saying that, IMO, the line should be drawn at calling him / her hubristic. Yeah I know the line between saying the comment is worthless and saying that kingsac is full of hubris is blurry, especially since PT said the situation is full of hubris.
There you go again
using those snooty British spellings.
FWIW ...
I'd say calling his comments worthless quite a bit worse than calling him hubristic ...
Seriously, which is worse?
"What you just said is worthless. We are all now dumber for having read to it. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul."
or
"Dude, you're kind of full of yourself."
I suggest you look at Drew's
numbers
Injuries aside, he looks like Bobby Crosby 2.0.
Ergot? You must be tripping, dude
There's no place on AN for that kind of smut.
Oh... heh, heh, just got that
"Smut."
Funny. Only took me about an hour to figure it out, too.
The A's needed quantity as well as quality.
Half of them may be in the A's starting lineup in three years. Maybe more than half. I didn't like to see Dan Haren go. There was no way he was going to get this quality if they were already major league ready. It may hurt now but watch these kids.
by jarforcefatherofforce on Dec 17, 2007 5:53 PM PST up reply actions
My concern is this...
if the same scouts that have brought us this barren minor league system are the ones scouting this lower-level prospects from AZ's system.
by Miggy on Dec 17, 2007 6:09 PM PST up reply actions
the moneyball thing
remember in the book, Beane said he never really wanted to "rebuild" i.e. "That's a copout for not competing" or sometihng similar....?
Now all the talk is about who will he trade next and that by trading Haren he's "throwing in the towel for '08"
Reading Beane's own quotes ("I don't think it's unfair to say that at all," Beane said. "I don't think there's any reason to dance around the subject. I think it's something we need to do.") seem to imply that he doesn't really have a choice in the matter; that the health situation is so poor (and he should take some responsibility for most of em), that the pieces that are supposed to be keeping us competitive (Chavez, Harden, Crosby, in that order) are failing (ahem... responsibility!), then Beane has conceded that it's time to start over.
The difficult pill to swallow is that next year is going to be a continuation of last year. I'm hoping some new faces at the major league level get me excited about baseball again. Among the trade, the Mitchell Report, and Cal's 07 football season, I think I just have been too "glass half empty" lately.
Here's some food for thought..
As it stands now, the current A's MLB roster is the 2nd youngest in all of baseball. I'm sure this figure will be pushed lower before the start of ST.
RNK Team Age Yng Old
1 Florida 25.2 20 32
2 Oakland 26.5 22 37
3 Colorado 26.7 21 37
4 Arizona 26.8 20 44
5 Washington 26.9 21 3519 San Francisco 28.1 21 40
26 Detroit 29.0 23 43
27 NY Mets 29.1 22 42
28 St. Louis 29.3 25 39
29 Houston 29.4 22 41
30 Boston 29.5 23 41
Of course this says nothing about each respective team's farm system or productivity of their present roster, but is nevertheless interesting to see.
SF Farm Team
I can't tell the difference between their farm team and their pro team.
Their roster is very odd right now
They have virtually no players in the "arbitration years." It's almost a 50-50 split between raw youngsters and ancient, washed-up veterans.
Sorry, the year would've been WAY more...
interesting if we had signed Bonds and gone for it. After all, this is entertainment. Watching them lose 3 of 5 every week will suck.
I "tuned" into AN
I immediately scrambled to the cell, calling Nico and baseballgirl to make sure that AN didn't explode on impact. Luckily it didn't.
and my Mac screen flickered and I saw a brief shot of Nico saying something akin to "there is no need to panic, I am in control" then the image faded to what looked like Alexander Haig, then it went blank.
you missed the rest
I, playing the role of Eliot Abrams, sent a secret envoy to RevHalofan, along with a chocolate birthday cake and a copy of Moneyball.
Oh. God, it's gonna worse!
Why we always trade good players when they performance well?Maybe just like what kingsac said. For money! But frankly speaking, they should consider what we hardcore fans think about. All we desire is the pure baseball game, the perfect performance of player, but not hope that they just become a regular milch cow.
by vandoppli on Dec 17, 2007 7:46 PM PST reply actions
nice write up tyler...
mark me down as liking the trade. beane can't stop now. he must find a new home for kots and dj. i think he holds onto fat joe until mid '08 or next nov-dec. finally, even with haren gone, chad left hangin' and my boy richie doing shoulder windmills (start off small, then go big) in his backyard in BC i think the a's will be very exciting to watch in '08.
can't wait to see what we got.
go a's!
Rebuilding worst case scenario...
Our offense bounces back to be stellar with Swisher and Chavez regaining their prime forms while being supplemented by Cust, Buck, Suzuki, and Barton. The only reason the 2008 A's are not in contention is that the rotation is horrible because Haren and Blanton (possibly) are gone.
If that happens, then I will hate the trade. Until then I'm gonna watch and wait.
That's the WORST case scenario?
Sounds more like the BEST case scenario to me... since if that happens, you just sign Sabathia and Rafael Furcal for 2009 and win the division going away.
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