Haren to Dbacks...
by plrraz on Dec 14, 2007 3:17 PM PST
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PrintSigh...sorry for breaking the rules about short diaries...but i...am...stunned
Why oh why...doesnt look like any good players as far as an upton or...ugghhhhh
I am just speechless...
I guess we are throwing in the towel for 08...Anyone out there who can talk me off of this flippn ledge???????????????????????/
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AHHHHHHHHHHHHH
sigh
well, lets hope there is something good in what we got.
by Athletics fan and runner on Dec 14, 2007 3:09 PM PST reply actions
seriously though...
Unless Beane got something that has SERIOUS upside, why do it NOW?
My confidence in BB has been shaken, much more than the trades of Mulder and Huddy did...those two were foregone conclusions, we had three(four?) cost controlled years of Haren.
Until baseball is fixed, and what I mean by that, is that teams can hang on to their players and there isnt a three tiered system with the BoSox/Bankees then the Mets/Dodgers/Angels...and then pretty much everyone else....I just give up.
No Upton, no Young, not even Scherzer.
Oakland will receive a total of six prospects, including outfielder Carlos Gonzalez and left-handers Brett Anderson and Greg Smith
Ridiculous.
Warriors got 9 or 10 back for Chamberlain
Quantity has nothing to do with quality
by A s Eh on Dec 14, 2007 6:35 PM PST up reply actions
hey, where is the analysis?
I just came here in shock, looking for a rundown on who we're throwing in the towel for.
the players that we recieved....
http://thebaseballcube.com/players/G...
An above 800 OPS last season but a horrid K to BB ratio.
http://thebaseballcube.com/players/A...
an outstanding K to BB ratio in single A.
http://thebaseballcube.com/players/S...
good numbers.
Any word on who the other three are?
by Athletics fan and runner on Dec 14, 2007 3:15 PM PST reply actions
Wow, that third guy must be Doogie Howser
In 1992, at age 8, he threw 33+ innings.
the others
http://thebaseballcube.com/players/C...
I like his numbers. he looks like a real deal.
http://thebaseballcube.com/players/C...
Born in Alaska.
http://thebaseballcube.com/players/E...
Fugly major league numbers and good minor league numbers.
by Athletics fan and runner on Dec 14, 2007 3:27 PM PST up reply actions
But Carter is a AAA 1B/DH
so where does he fit on the A's ?
by green star oakland on Dec 14, 2007 3:37 PM PST up reply actions
He's been in PCL/AAA ball the last 2 years
so he'll just sit there being blocked ?
by green star oakland on Dec 14, 2007 3:41 PM PST up reply actions
Wrong Chris Carter
Word on BTF is it's this one who they acquired from Chicago earlier in the offseason. The one linked to above is now in Boston's system.
maybe he will DH
and Cust will play LF?
I think he will start the year in AAA but maybe if he mashes he will be the DH.
by Athletics fan and runner on Dec 14, 2007 3:39 PM PST up reply actions
or maybe (gulp)
cust gets shipped out after the mitchell report? god i hope not.
Wow, Beane'd better be right about these players
Have to recommend the diary, as much as I don't understand the trade.
Full trade:
Included in the trade to Oakland are pitchers Brett Anderson, Greg Smith and Dana Eveland along with outfielders Carlos Gonzalez and Aaron Cunningham and first baseman Chris Carter.
by green star oakland on Dec 14, 2007 3:19 PM PST reply actions
This EFFING SUCKS
I love this team, but hate this kind of crap ALWAYS happening.
by nfadil4 on Dec 14, 2007 3:20 PM PST reply actions
This hurts. . . .
Loved Haren.....
I would have held out a bit longer Billy.
Looks like the rebuilding has begun.
WHY!!?!?!!?
This has to be the start of major rehauling for the A's.....
Anyone have any predictions on who they're tradding next?
One of my favorite players
traded for who? who? who? who? who? and who?.
We are living in a world of assumptions
but 2 years from now, should Danny be pitching close to the same, would be an even larger steal at what we would have been paying him.
BB has a longer track record than I do, so who am I to judge, but this isn't looking like a good deal on the surface. I'll wait for more detailed info from AN faithful, but for now, I'm crushed and confused.
in looking at who we got
it appears that they are all good prospects. I think that if two of them end up being good major leaguers we will have made out ok. I think that will happen eventually.
by Athletics fan and runner on Dec 14, 2007 3:33 PM PST up reply actions
Haren won't be "the same"
Any more than Mulder was the same in 2006. Pitchers are pretty volatile. I'd bet he'll still be good, but last year was a career year.
Ironic...
...we were all bitching and moaning when Mulder was traded for Haren (great trade).
And now we're all bitching and moaning about Haren being traded...
by Travis Buck Nuckin on Dec 14, 2007 7:50 PM PST up reply actions
Don't worry, cust is still here
by kaweahkaweah on Dec 14, 2007 9:44 PM PST up reply actions
Ooh, I just got a message!
Dear Poppy,
It's early, but Happy F%#king Birthday, again!
Regards,
Billy
I never thought I'd say this....
but I wish we were still talking about the Mitchell Report.
This is a major bummer.
I'll put the over/under at 7 days
until Blanton is either traded or signed to a 5 year extension.
Any takers?
Not the Dodgers ?
Could this be another Hudson/Mulder deal ?
by green star oakland on Dec 14, 2007 3:42 PM PST up reply actions
I keep seeing it being announced
then retracted, so I've kind of lost track by now, but since it keeps being announced that he's going to LAD, I just assumed it was basically a given.
But hey, if we CAN send them Blanton for a nice package, go for it.
SAD!
Eveland??? Having watched him pitch in Milwaukee for two years, I am not happy he is in Oakland. A complete waste of talent who doesn't know when to push himself away from the dinner table. I only hope the rest of the kids are worth it.
On the bright side, this means one thing....
NO BARRY BONDS!!!!!!
WTF??
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
+1
Beane is VVVVEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYY over rated.
Are the A's a major league team or not?
by A s Eh on Dec 14, 2007 6:46 PM PST up reply actions
uhh, nice try
but you can't +1 to my emotional response to my favorite a's player being traded away and write that other bullshit. go away.
Now if this is sadness
Then I guess I'm filled with gladness.
as i said in the other thread
when being in contention depends on chavez, harden, duke, crosby, and kotsay being healthy and productive, it's almost certainly time to sell.
Amen...for SURE.
by baseballgirl on Dec 14, 2007 4:12 PM PST up reply actions
Beane built the A's and they suck.
...how many minor leaguers he accumulates does not change how bad the A's suck.
Congratulations to Haren & the D-Backs! You ripped Beane off bigtime on this one.
Congratulations to the Giants on acquiring Rowand and keeping Lincecum in the rotation. Nice move. The Bay Area will be watching some major league baseball in 2008!
Zito
Cain
Lowry
Lincecum
by A s Eh on Dec 14, 2007 7:06 PM PST up reply actions
That's a joke, right?
Aaron Rowand, he of the 106 OPS+ career, is now San Fran's best hitter.
At least the '08 A's will score some runs and make things interesting. With the '08 Giants, you can pretty much turn off the TV if the opposition scores first.
Partially. I was a Giants fan circa Mays,
...and Rowan's 45 doubles & 27 HRs looks good on any team when it's coming from your CFer. Especially if Dave Roberts was your Cfer the previous year. That is a huge swing in production while maintaining defense. Maybe they can dump Roberts for a prospect now.
Those power stats would have topped last years A's as well. Rowand is set to make salaries of $8 million in '08, $8 million in '09 and $12 million in each of the final three years of the contract. We pay Kotsay $7 million this year. Would I trade CFers? In an Oakland minute!
The Giants starters are signed 3-6 years and go 6 deep. They can now fill in youth as it becomes available. Rowand probably bats #5. I think the Giants did just fine with their savings from Bonds.
(Who they still could sign on the very cheap!)
by A s Eh on Dec 15, 2007 12:47 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, and not trading...
Haren for Juan Pierre straight up was good too. Just because it wasnt a world class bad trade doesnt make it a good one.
And just wait to see if the 31 year old puts up those numbers again in phone booth. And yes, he's also clearly better than Kotsay, which again, is comparing to the very bottom. Just wait till the Giants are scoring 3 runs a game next year and we'll see how those pitchers are feeling...
I don't think the Giants are done improving
As to SF CF:
Roberts: 10 win shares
Rowand: 23 win shares
I think Rowand decreases but posts a large improvement over Roberts.
Interesting Runs Margins comparison:
'07 A's: -17 Runs
'07 Giants: -37 Runs
by A s Eh on Dec 15, 2007 6:38 PM PST up reply actions
So far the Giants have seriously declined
this offseason. They've replaced Bonds with Rowand, who even in his career year last year, was less productive than Bonds.
They'd need to make at least one more move just to get to the point of being as good offensively as they were last year. Which was "not very."
We agree
I think both teams are trying to improve with the Giants stronger up the middle:
G's Molina-Vizquel-Durham-Rowand
A's Suzuki-Crosby-Ellis-Kotsay
and starting rotation:
G's Zito-Cain-Lowry-Lincecum-Correia-Sanchez-Misch
A's Blanton-*Gaudin-Dinardo-Duke-Eveland-*Harden-Meyer-Braden
*Spring Training DL?
Y'know, the A's tells us how beat up the starters and team are then Beane rushes out and trades the ones that are healthy!
LOL
...maybe the team improves quicker if we lose a few of the beat up ones?
by A s Eh on Dec 15, 2007 9:51 PM PST up reply actions
Rowand's salary
is $12 million a year. The 8 million comes from not factoring in his signing bonus, which is 4 million a year for the first two years.
I'm not sure what this "youth" that's going to "become available" is, because the Giants minor league system is exactly like their major league system: old and lousy. They have virtually zero impact prospects above single-A. The one they do have, Schierholtz, they seem determined to block by any means necessary.
BA just rated a 17-year-old as their top prospect.
Villalona would be very highly rated
by BA in other systems too, even in good systems.
BA likes players like him, or Carlos Triunfel, or Deolis Guerra: young high upside guys who are very young for their levels.
Filling in youth
as it becomes available is proving very difficult, because youth isn't available; most teams want talent, whether young or not.
The same applies to salary dumps too. In the past, a big market team like the Giants could pick up good players that teams wanted to dump. Now, you need to give up good stuff in return.
I'm not sure why I'm taking up the Giants cause,
but a quick checking of contracts shows:
Positions Players Contracts:
Vets with 1 year remaining: 3 players
Vets with 2 years remaining: 3 players
Vets with 3/more years remaining: only Rowand
1-3 years service: 9 players
3-6 years arbies: 0 playersI suspect those 6 vets replacements are likely to be younger.
by A s Eh on Dec 15, 2007 7:08 PM PST up reply actions
Um, Zito?
6 year contract?
Meanwhile, it's true that the replacements for the vets are going to be younger. The problem is, they're terrible. Rajai Davis is a 4th outfielder. Kevin Frandsen is a utility player on a good team. Dan Ortmeier... well, isn't ON a good team. Velez is a one-tool player.
So if the Giants are getting younger with those guys, they're also getting a lot worse.
Zito's contract is insane. No argument.
If I'm the G's I'd try to get Swisher next for 1B/OF: $3.5, $5.3, $6.7, $9, and T-Option $10.2.
Swisher adds offense and defense at 1B or the OF. That kind of flexibility enhances roster tweaks the next 4-5 years and Winn-Swisher-Ortmeyer-Rowand look nice in the middle of the batting order.
I haven't seen much of Ortmeyer but from the stats Ortmeyer looks valuable replacing Klesko at 1B. I'd try his 6' 4" height and 500 slugging vs both lefties and righties from 1B. Rotating him and Swisher is always an option but I get him a lot of PAs in '08 just to see what he has.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=6418
Raja Bell gets some OF time in vs flyball and lefty pitchers and a bit of leadoff with Win but I cherry pick vs type of pitcher. If Rowand goes down he is in CF. Now I trade Dave Roberts for salary relief 2x $6 and maybe a RP.
Frandsen remains utilty. Velez I don't know.
by A s Eh on Dec 16, 2007 11:47 PM PST up reply actions
So?
Who are the replacements going to be?
It's easy to say that the 6 vet replacements are likely to be younger? Who are they? Youth is irrelevant. A young crappy player is still crap. A 42 year old Barry Bonds is still Bonds.
Their system lacks position players who can contribute soon. Their 2 best position player prospects are the 17 year old Angel Villalona and Nate Schierholz. Schierholz is ready, but that is only one.
Their next 2 best prospects are pitchers, Madison Bumgarner and Tim Alderson.
Others? Well, John Bowker, corner OF, had a breakout outstading season at AA that was masked by his home park. He could be very good. Even so, he is still at least one year away.
Ha!
"Congratulations to Haren & the D-Backs! You ripped Beane off bigtime on this one."
You can really only tell if Oakland was ripped off if you have full scouting reports and comprehensive statistical analysis on the 6 players, plus Haren. And a crystal ball.
I'm sure you have, like, zero of those things. But yeah, knee-jerk negativity works too.
When did AN become ESPN Conversation?
+1
by Travis Buck Nuckin on Dec 14, 2007 10:07 PM PST up reply actions
This is why i don't like big A's moves
all the clueless people show up with nothing useful to add.
by awesomer @ Athletics Nation on Dec 15, 2007 1:40 AM PST up reply actions
clueless people
Yeah, the worst thing about baseball is people who care but haven't read everything ever published by BA or baseball prospectus....
Come on, I think it's valid to feel crapped on by this trade even if you don't know Aaron Cunningham's OPS against left handers.
by BerkeleyDawg on Dec 16, 2007 12:22 AM PST up reply actions
if the giants are the only MLB team
www.mccoveychronicles.com
See, that is where our major difference is,
My sense of community took in the Giants of the 50's until the A's arrived in the 60's.
My sense of community encompasses both teams to this day. I am a fan of these teams because they are in my community. It is that simple for me.
I don't understand how being a fan of Beane trumps the team on the field for so many here.
This blog is AN: Athletic's Nation.
This blog is not BN: Beane's Nation.
This blog is not XN.
by A s Eh on Dec 15, 2007 7:19 PM PST up reply actions
and what does it mean when you say
the giants are the only mlb team in the area in 2008?
do you think the giants will win more games than the a's next year?
I think Beane's fire sale is just beginning...
As to the Giants they need to keep building and they are in a very tough division for '08.
I see lots of roster tweaks for both teams, how can you bet on teams that will look so different on opening day?. Emotions and gambling are a bad mixture.
Re: Bad/mistake contracts;
Giants and A's both suffer them, it is tunnel vision to think otherwise.
A few of the A's:
Crosby $8.75 left
Chavez $35.5 left
Kotsay $7 left
Bradley -hurt us bad in '07. Beane gives him away.
Keilty - ditto
Kendall - $12 million per
Loaiza - Beane gave him away after high bidding on a contract to "win him" from the Giants.
Perez - is he still in Sac?
Dotel - Flamed out in so many ways
Harden - $4.5 left
Rhodes - A mis-step that led to Kendall
Redmond - The other mis-step
Pizza - $8 million for Beane's SoCal Charities
Witasick - I don't want to talk about this.
The Holy Flail - $4.7 (Durazo)
The Ginterland - Where o where is Keith today?
2007 A's = $80 million is worth 76 wins
...I can continue but to what good?
X - I'll give you this one without argument or question: The Giants' contract with Zito is insanity, and insanity doubled when you consider a ntc is included.
by A s Eh on Dec 16, 2007 10:16 PM PST up reply actions
Here's the thing that gets me
Beane didn't have to make this move now. Kuroda still hasn't signed and it doesn't look like he was going to AZ. Chances are he was headed to the Dodgers which would have screwed up the pressure on the D'Backs to free up one of their untouchables to counter with Haren.
+1
Haren is too good and too cheap for this amatuerish maneuver.
Haren's value only goes up.
Beane blew it.
by A s Eh on Dec 14, 2007 7:09 PM PST up reply actions
Hmmm.
I am of course upset by this news. Danny was an excellent player and an excellent A. His presence on the mound will be sorely missed by this team. I would be very surprised if we're in contention for more than the first couple weeks of the season.
However, while this deal has 0 real superstars in the making, it has a few pretty nice looking prospects. The three hitters, Gonzalez, Carter, and Cunningham look pretty shiny to my eyes. Everyone talks about Gonzalez but im impressed by Carter's power and Cunningham's consistency. The pitcher's are meh, especially Eveland, but Anderson and Smith could bust out and surprise us. I'm not so down on this deal as everyone else, but we could've probably gotten better.
I got to see Anderson a few times this years
he is not meh.
Could be very good. He is still a teenage pitcher, but could be VERY good.
Maybe Mitchell's report
has an addendum listing Haren as one of the "former A's" using steriods. BB, seeing the report, said "He's not a former A's, but let's make it so."
not so bad?
folks at baseball think factory seem to think beane got quite a bit of talent in return for haren:
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/...
minorleagueball.com
http://www.minorleagueball.com/story...
Haren was one of the few reasons
I had to go to the games...the others were Marco, Milton Bradley....I guess Seinfeld was right...we're cheering for laundry now...
My only reason to go to games last year
was that homeless guy who defecates in a cardboard Toshiba box on the BART ramp. Hopefully he'll still be there - he sold me a Rolex.
Max Scherzer
Beane should have held out for Max Scherzer.
I don't know if anyone has said it, but we've also lost Robertson.
please excuse my ignorance
Who is robertson?
by opiewannabe on Dec 15, 2007 2:09 PM PST up reply actions
Connor Robertson
A RH reliever that the A's sent to Arizona as part of the Haren deal. He was on the Oakland team for a little while early this season, one of many brought up from Sacramento in the course of the injury-prompted revolving door. He played in a couple of games then got hurt. After he came off the DL he went back to Sacramento.
I assume grover is being facetious about Robertson. As far as I know, no one was terribly excited about him. Just another AAA reliever who was OK but no more than that. (In fact, I think he cleared waivers when we pushed him off the 40-man roster, right?)
This is horseshit
I am really sick of this we basically got rid of the 3 best pitchers in the game and got nothing for them. If we are going to do this then get rid of all the guys like Harden, Chavez, Blanton and street. At least last year we had some of the best pitching in the league and that was because of Haren. Now we are going to have one of the worst offenses in the league and an average at best pitching staff nice job Billy you jerk off
by 3Chavy3 on Dec 14, 2007 4:20 PM PST reply actions
Or that Barton, Calero, and Haren = nothing...
Especially considering what Haren has netted us now.
by Helloooo 1st on Dec 14, 2007 4:32 PM PST up reply actions
Whoa
By trading Haren (and Blanton and Street most likely) its obvious next year doesn't matter. So that means having a bad offense and pitching staff doesn't matter. Billy's not an idiot, he's been one of the best GMs in the game for a reason, this trade wasn't made for peanuts. Beane has faith in the players he's receiving and if Carter can work on his K's then he could be a HUGE steal.
by Helloooo 1st on Dec 14, 2007 4:33 PM PST up reply actions
Beane
The only way this is a steal is if we find out in spring that Haren's actually injured and will never play again, because we just hauled in a heavy load of what's probably nothing but crap in return for him.
When we traded Hudson and Mulder, it was sad, but there was real upside: it was misplaced, but I was stoked to see guys like Meyer and Thomas who were apparently, at least, on the brink of success. Turned out the success came from a different part of that set of trades, but at least there was hope. With this transaction, Beane is giving fans the finger- there's no hope, no nothing until Fremont. He's putting all his chips on the new stadium, which makes sense given that he's a part owner now and wants to maximize the returns from that investment. Fans, shmans: he's just traded a bona fide leader for a pinch of pixie dust and a bag of magic beans that he hopes will conjure up some magic many years down the road. That makes perfect sense when you care zero about putting a good team out there. That's all I can see at this point!
by BerkeleyDawg on Dec 14, 2007 10:49 PM PST up reply actions
If there was no stadium in place
by Helloooo 1st on Dec 15, 2007 4:43 PM PST up reply actions
You think Angels > Tigers ?
Yes.
by Helloooo 1st on Dec 15, 2007 11:31 PM PST up reply actions
I don't like the trade
but you're exaggerating: that package is not "crap".
Oh, and
Oakland allowed 758 runs last year. League average was 784.
They won 76 games with him. They could do no worse without him. So instead of having a well below average farm system, and slightly above average pitching staff, they'll now have a below average pitching staff and above avergage to well above average (pending on what they get for Blanton) farm system.
When they traded Hudson/Mulder, we were watching them in the ALCS 22 months later.
That said, we're gonna be watching a fairly atrocious rotation (an 'atrocitation?') in 2008.
Reeaaaaalllly atrocious, actually, because apparently they lost all 3 of their Dan Harens today.
lot of negativity around here
I like this trade, don't know much about the players but we got 6 of them (!) and they all seem young and studly.
One of my favorite things about baseball is watching young prospects develop.
One of my favorite things
is feeling my team has a chance to be in the pennant race come late April. :-(
It does
I mean, assuming "your team" is the Sacramento Rivercats.
They should offer free tickets to RC games to all the Oakland season ticket holders...
People say they really enjoyed taking in
a game there.
The A's and R-Cats should both benefit with a comp pair of RCats tix.
by A s Eh on Dec 15, 2007 9:58 PM PST up reply actions
In all seriousness
that might not be the worst idea for any team that has a nearby minor league affiliate-- get the fans involved and thinking about the team's prospects so they'll root for them once they make it to the bigs.
Totally agree
by A s Eh on Dec 16, 2007 2:52 PM PST up reply actions
maybe we'll get bonds for that. :)
From the Dback board.
Carlos Gonzales Our top prospect, according to Baseball America - only 22, but I would not be surprised to see him in the outfield for Oakland before very much longer, if not on Opening Day. The major knock is his poor plate discipline - he spent most of the season in Double-A Mobile, where he struck out 103 times while walking only 32. Given this, it's a surprise Beane wanted him, as he's the very antithesis of the OBP-based philosophy described in Moneyball. Whether it's corrected or exacerbated by his arrival in the majors will likely determine whether this is a boon or a bust.
Just what we need...sounds like a Bobby Crosby at the plate.
Don't be so
negative. :)
by A s Eh on Dec 16, 2007 10:19 PM PST up reply actions
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