The Latest Dan Haren Rumor
by migueltejada on Dec 10, 2007 10:34 AM PST
49 comments
From ESPN:
"The Diamondbacks are waiting to hear from the A's about their most recent proposal for right-handed starter Dan Haren, the East Valley Tribune reports.
Arizona's package is believed to include prospects Carlos Gonzalez, Emilio Bonifacio and Brett Anderson."
Does anyone know anything about the aforementioned prospects? The more I think about it, the more I love D. Haren and don't want him to be traded. That being said, I don't know a thing about these prospects. Would the A's be receiving equal, or better, value in return?
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Gonzalez is interesting
But as a COF he's not even more interesting, than, say, Lastings Milledge, who was just had for a song. Unless he plays a great CF I don't know about, he's a very, very weak centerpiece to a Dan Haren deal. Anderson's a young arm (next season will be his age 20 year) and he's had good strikeout rates in the minors so far, but who knows with those types. Bonifacio is a light hitting second baseman who's been young for his levels at every stop. His upside looks like its somewhere in the Luis Castillo region.
The key to me is if Max Scherzer, the #10 pick from the 2006 draft, is supposed to be involved as a PTBNL (since he can't officially be traded yet.) If it's these three guys plus other a few others not including Scherzer, it's a bad deal. If Scherzer's in there, it at least makes things interesting.
by walk off bunt on Dec 10, 2007 10:27 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I propose this "trade":
Dear Billy,
Go ahead and sign Barry Bonds, I'll stop crying -- as long as you keep Dan Haren.
Love,
Poppy
by Poppy on Dec 10, 2007 10:27 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
if you stop crying ...
... does that mean we're "going for it," or "rebuilding"?
Also, what are the relative values of you crying for 3 more years, vs you crying for 1 more year?
by monkeyball on Dec 10, 2007 11:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
IMO
As long as we stop her crying through her arby years, the rest can be some other team's problem.
by batgirl on Dec 10, 2007 11:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What, no Poppy-crying-related lineups?
Where's Zonis?
by Poppy on Dec 10, 2007 11:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I still don't understand this
I mean, there's nothing here. Gonzalez is blocked by Buck and Swisher and really hasn't justified the hype about his "tools" anyway. The A's don't need another second baseman. 2 single-A pitchers, even 2 very good single-A pitchers, are quite possibly never going to reach the majors.
Without Upton, Young or Drew being included, I simply cannot see how Oakland can make a deal here. Obtaining five backups for positions that are already covered makes no sense at all when you have gaping lineup holes at other positions.
by PaulThomas on Dec 10, 2007 10:34 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Agree, unless . . .
It's hard to see how Billy could make this trade as currently proposed. However, if the A's could actually trade Swisher for Lincecum the trade for Arizona would make more sense. In that scenario, the A's would get Lincecum to replace Haren, Gonzales to replace Swisher, and additional prospects for the future. That pair of deals would likely hurt the A's in 2008, but would give the A's far more upside for the future.
by BlameChannel53 on Dec 10, 2007 10:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That would make some sense ...
though we'd still need to get much more than this for Haren ...
The more I think about it, the more sense it makes to me to explore the trade value that Buck or Swisher might have ... I'm a big fan of both guys, but I can't help but feel like they're pretty replaceable.
by devo on Dec 10, 2007 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
What is your definition of "much more"?
by BlameChannel53 on Dec 10, 2007 11:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure, exactly ...
without BP and JS (and not subscribing to BA, so I don't have access to their scouting reports), I can't say I know enough about the system to get that detailed. Gonzalez is a year away, though and Anderson is at least two, so that limits their value, even if BA likes them.
by devo on Dec 10, 2007 11:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
AZ's Top 10 (by BA)
The D'Backs 2nd best position prospect is OF Gerardo Parra. He finished last year in High-A and is supposed to be their best pure hitter. Turns 21 in May, hasn't shown much power.
Another arm to look at is 2007 2nd rounder Barry Enright. He profiles similiar to James Simmons. College trained, FB 88-91 with command. Should move quick.
by grover on Dec 10, 2007 12:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Parra looked studly
In the couple of games I saw, he looked really good.
by jakarta on Dec 10, 2007 1:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Except for a slow start (2 mos)
to 2007, he has hit at every level for three years now ...
He still has a lot of work to do with controlling the strike zone, but he's not by any stretch just a guy that looks good in jeans ...
by devo on Dec 10, 2007 10:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't solve the blocking problem though
Now: If the deal was Haren/Swisher for that package plus Upton, it would look somewhat better.
by PaulThomas on Dec 10, 2007 11:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying we should do it ...
just that Gonzalez is better than you suggested ...
by devo on Dec 10, 2007 11:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
PT - are you ready for this?
You are absolutely, 100% DEAD-ON! This is a horrible deal -- Upton, Young, or Drew has to be a part of this, or it makes absolutely no sense!!
by Vacafan on Dec 10, 2007 2:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
did PT give you his whole $20 for Monday?
by monkeyball on Dec 10, 2007 2:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I bought into BA
Gonzalez is Arizona's #1 prospect.
He's a coin flip. Heads he ends up really, really good. Tails he's Juan Encarcion.
Ton of tools, his mental approach is weak. He's got some immaturity to grow out of. Will he? That's the coin flip. Definite RF.
I'm a speed freak. I've got a fetish for base stealers. I look at Bonifacio and say "Pass". He doesn't walk enough and strikes out too often for a guy with zip power. Nor has he shown the willingness to adjust his approach and go for making more contact.
Anderson intrigues me. He's young and needs to get in better shape. If he does that he could end up being real good, maybe even as good as Mulder was.
by grover on Dec 10, 2007 10:58 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
One more note
Gonzalez is at least a year away. Bonifacio's probably the same. Anderson at least two years.
by grover on Dec 10, 2007 11:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"Tails he's Juan Encarnacion"
Hopefully without the frightening career-ending injury...
by PaulThomas on Dec 10, 2007 11:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
as long as tails ain't
charles thomas...circa trade w/ braves dec '04.
by arch on Dec 10, 2007 1:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely not "crap" as some have said
Arizona is offering two of its top prospects in Gonzalez and Anderson. Gonzalez would be our #1 prospect if we acquired him, and Brett Anderson would likely be our #2. By way of reference, Anderson was rated the Midwest League's #3 prospect behind only Kershaw and Travis Snider. Cahill, who is our #1 or #2 prospect -- depending on how valuable you think Barton will be -- was rated as the Midwest League's #19 prospect.
by BlameChannel53 on Dec 10, 2007 11:07 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Rated by whom, though?
I don't really trust BA's prospect rankings, because they put way too much emphasis on tools.
by PaulThomas on Dec 10, 2007 11:33 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well BP and JS haven't released D-Backs yet ...
by devo on Dec 10, 2007 11:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Gonzalez would be our #1
Whether BP, JS, or BA was doing the rankings.
The Midwest League rankings are compiled by BA, but they are not really their rankings (the BA staff), but are the compilation of rankings from Midwest League managers and coaches.
I'm not the world's greatest fan of BA rankings, and I think they are too tools oriented, which is why I don't have a subscription. Subjectively, I think Cahill and Anderson are pretty close in talent, and their stats/ages are very similar as well.
All that aside, my point is simple: Gonzalez and Anderson are not "crap," and anyone who says so doesn't know much about prospects. Whether those players add up to Haren is another matter, but they are very legitimate prospects. Bonifacio is "crap" in my opinion. Not a fan.
by BlameChannel53 on Dec 10, 2007 1:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know about that ...
Daric Barton has out hit him at every level, is the same age, but at least a year ahead on the development curve and has already had a successful MLB debut ... it's hard for me to see how Gonzalez is a better prospect -- a touch more upside, perhaps, but much more downside.
by devo on Dec 10, 2007 1:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Positional differences and upside
Gonzalez has more power potential and can play an above average RF, while Barton has a bad body for developing power and is unlikely to ever be any better than adequate at 1B. When prospect rankings come out I think you will see Gonzalez rated higher across the spectrum. I agree that they are close, however.
by BlameChannel53 on Dec 10, 2007 1:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, Bonifacio is crap
And if they aren't willing to include Scherzer (reports are split on him being available) then the pitching looks sketchy.
by grover on Dec 10, 2007 11:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Player Info.
Miguel,
Here are 3 web sources of info you can use to obtain player info. 1)milb.com This is the official MLB minor league website. Shows up to date stats for all minor league teams & players. 2) Baseball America.com A meaty compendium of scouting reports, stats & excellent info on MLB prospects. Some of their content is free. They are currently do a Top 10 Prospect list for all MLB teams. Their Trade Central is IMO, a real wealth of knowledge. 3) baseball-reference.com This site list all MLB players, past & present & shows their complete playing history.
If you already knew all of this & just wanted to know what Arizona is supposedly offering for Haren, Anderson & Gonzales are supposedly top-tier prospects. Mr. Anderson's minor league experience is minimal. I recently watched The Matrix & can't get Mr. Anderson out of my brain. Anyway, I hope this helps.
by alpine26 on Dec 10, 2007 10:59 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Trade Blanton and Haren to the NL West
This makes things really interesting. Almost like if Boston signs a new pitcher then the Yankees need to.
In this case if we were to trade Haren to Arizona then the Dodgers would be inclined to upgrade also.
So to finish this, we would trade Haren to Arizona, Blanton to the Dodgers (he increases in value with Haren in Arizona) and then Swisher could go to the highest bidder after 2008 to open up a spot for Gonzales.
by Eastbayjim on Dec 10, 2007 11:52 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
I love it!
I like how you think man! Keep it up!
by Threepwood XX on Dec 10, 2007 1:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
one team I'm surprised
hasn't been linked to Haren is the Reds. They are desperate for starting pitching and have a loaded farm system. Mmm...Homer Bailey and Jay Bruce...mmmm.
by jubjub on Dec 10, 2007 1:12 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
The Reds won't talk Jay Bruce to anyone
by grover on Dec 10, 2007 1:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
they're still loaded
I'd take Cueto, Bailey and Frazier (which would fill two rotation spots and SS).
Sickels Top 10:
Jay Bruce, OF, Grade A (I'm not worried about the strikeouts given his age and performance)
Johnny Cueto, RHP, Grade A-
Joey Votto, 1B, Grade A-
Homer Bailey, RHP, Grade B+
Todd Frazier, SS-3B, Grade B+
Matthew Maloney, LHP, Grade B (I have always liked him, has component marks of a power pitcher not a finesse guy even though he doesn't throw hard)
Devin Mesoraco, C, Grade B
Drew Stubbs, OF, Grade B-
Neftali Soto, SS-3B, Grade B-
Kyle Lotzkar, RHP, Grade B- (a long way off but a good intuitive feeling)
Daniel Dorn, OF, Grade B- (major sleeper)
Jared Burton, RHP, Grade C+
Tyler Pelland, LHP, Grade C+
Pedro Viola, LHP, Grade C+ (sleeper!)
Travis Wood, LHP, Grade C+ (health??)
Josh Roenicke, RHP, Grade C+
Scott Carroll, RHP, Grade C+
Chris Valaika, INF, Grade C+
Adam Rosales, 1B, Grade C+
Sean Watson, RHP, Grade C+
Brandon Waring, 3B, Grade C+ (the strikeouts scare me)
by jubjub on Dec 10, 2007 1:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah ... that's one of the few farm systems ...
that can blow us away without including their top prospect ...
by devo on Dec 10, 2007 1:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
It would actually make a ton of sense
for them to expend system talent to get Haren. To them, the cheap contract really is worth a lot, and Griffey will finally be off the books once his free agency rolls around.
Too bad they seem determined to plow stodgily ahead with their current roster.
by PaulThomas on Dec 10, 2007 2:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why would you want cheap contracts, when you
can overspend for players like Cordero.
by theblackpearl on Dec 10, 2007 2:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not according to this quote
"We would have liked to do something if it improved the ballclub. I feel good about our team right now. We added (Francisco) Cordero as a major piece to the team. We still want to solidify the starting rotation and add an arm or two to compete for one of those spots. Nothing's changed, we're still looking for pitching."
--Reds GM Wayne Krivsky, on his off-season moves.
They want pitching too. Think the A's could get Bailey and Frazier for Haren? That might be worth it, especially if you throw in another guy.
by Philip Christy on Dec 10, 2007 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd insist on Dorn
Just for the multitude of quotes from Major League.
by mikev on Dec 10, 2007 2:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you could get Cueto
I'm not sure you could get Bailey and Cueto because they've pretty much got Bailey pencilled in for their 2008 rotation. Frazier is a long, long ways away. He had all of 6 games in Low-A ball last year. They want Votto at 1B next year and are trying to trade Hatty to make room.
Maloney's OK, I'm not as high on him as Sickels, not sure Maloney+Cueto makes me happy enough.
Stubbs is a long way away.
If you're willing to wait a minimum of 2 years before seeing if the bulk of the deal pays off then you could talk to Cincy. Other than Cueto (who I think needs to be included or forget about a deal) you probably wouldn't see anyone until the end of 2010.
by grover on Dec 10, 2007 3:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
News on the Haren front
Rosenthal says the Indians appear to be making a push for Haren.
Cleveland rumors say Haren for Adam Miller, Aaron Laffey and Asdrubal Cabrera.
by grover on Dec 10, 2007 10:35 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I should add
ESPN's Buster Olney started the Cleveland specualtion on Sunday, so I guess you could say there are two sources pushing the Indians into the picture.
I'll be honest, if I'm Cleveland I don't see a need for Haren.
CC, Carmona, Byrd, Laffey and Westbrook in the rotation plus Adam Miller, Cliff Lee and Sowers for depth... Haren isn't a necessity. Could Detroit's big trade during the Winter Meetings have Shapiro feeling antsy?
by grover on Dec 10, 2007 11:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe a favor
to drive up the price between AZ/LA?
by rebus on Dec 11, 2007 10:22 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Unless Cabrera can play shortstop,
or there's something else included, that's a bad offer. Laffey is a back-of-the-rotation guy, Miller if I recall rightly has already had arm injuries, and Cabrera doesn't hit well enough to profile as a plus hitter anywhere other than shortstop. He's listed as a shortstop at the Cube, but given grover's complaints about Jed Lowrie, that may not be his true position.
Again an offer without a single A prospect in it. Take him off the market, Billy. The demand isn't there.
by PaulThomas on Dec 10, 2007 11:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Cabrera grades as an excellent defensive SS
Except when the grade is different. BA loved his defense pre-2006, but downgraded his range pre-2007. Sickels loved his defense in 06 and 07. Cabrera's defensive numbers in 2006 were bad.
I don't have the latest on his glove at my fingertips but I am researching.
by grover on Dec 11, 2007 12:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
He was always the best defender in the M's system
So unless something's changed in the past 18 months, he can play short, and play it very well.
by Graham on Dec 11, 2007 6:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
last time I checked
we had a very good defensive SS who can't hit and his name wasn't easily mispronounced assdrool. For the A's announcers and sensitive listerns benefit, I think we should pass on him.
by jubjub on Dec 11, 2007 7:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Blanton, Crosby, and Street to Cleveland,
A. Miller, C. Lee, and J. Peralta to Oakland...Go from there...Blockbuster, baby!
by Nico on Dec 11, 2007 8:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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