So what if Beane decides to blow it up?
For really not much reason whatsoever, I was perusing mlbtraderumors and noticed this little tidbit about Boston possibly looking at Johan Santana or Haren. Obviously adding Haren would give Boston a ridiculously awesome rotation (Beckett, Haren, Dice-K, Schilling, Wakefield? Seriously?), but I don't care about that.
What interests me is thinking about what would be required from Boston. Who would Beane want? My first thought: More than Haren is worth. I couldn't see Haren going to an AL team without Billy getting so completely blown away by an offer that he just can't say no. To me, that would mean a package starting with Buchholz and Ellsbury, and probably including somebody like Jed Lowrie as well.
So, here's my question to AN: What would it take for you to be okay with trading Dan Haren? A Mulder-or-Hudson-esque deal? More? Less? How about Blanton, as he's the other major piece that could be dangled if a full blown, tear it down rebuild were to commence.
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If we trade Haren...
We can clearly allocate his contract $$ towards Rod Barajas and build around him. If Posada is getting a 4 year deal we won't need to go more than 6 for Rod. Either way, he's clearly our Catcher/3B/LF of the future.
by CyZito on Nov 15, 2007 11:47 AM PST 0 recs
GIS for "dumbstruck"
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by The Dogfather on
Nov 15, 2007 11:57 AM PST
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I don't think the Sox will give up...
both Buchholz and Ellsbury in the same deal for anyone. Clay, Lowrie, and another prospect is about right, I think. It would be a better package than the Mulder deal because Haren was a good prospect at the time, but Clay is the best pitching prospect in the game and already has thrown a no-hitter. But it should be a better package, because Haren is 3 years from FA, while Mulder was 2. Honestly, I don't think we'll get a better package when you consider quality of return and the A's needs.
Continuing the blow-it-up theme: their next move could be to deal Blanton for Milledge. Then signing Ellis to an extension could give them this lineup for a few years:
- Barton- 1b
- Milledge- CF
- Buck- LF
- Swisher- RF
- Cust- DH
- Lowrie- SS
- Chavez- 3B
- Ellis- 2B
- Suzuki- C
That would actually be very good and pretty cheap. The rotation, well that's another story. But Clay would be a start.
by drink on Nov 15, 2007 11:50 AM PST 0 recs
Speaking of which...
...what's the current consensus on the "future deals taken into account" explanation with the Loaiza situation from last season? Has everyone decided that line was just some b.s. to keep people from thinking Beane was just dumping any salary he could get off his hands, or do folks believe that the A's are holding some kind of marker from the Dodgers?
by Nick on
Nov 15, 2007 7:34 PM PST
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When the Dodgers trade Matt Kemp
to the A's for "oh, no one, it's fine," then we'll know.
by Nico on
Nov 15, 2007 7:38 PM PST
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It may have been conditional
Like, "We'll give you LaRoche for some minor leaguer if we make the playoffs." Or even conditional based on Loaiza's own performance. If so, obviously the Dodgers wouldn't be sending anything back given his utterly lame performance for them.
At this point, it looks like just dumping the salary may have been a smart move. Heck, you can do a lot in the D.R. and Venezuela with $7 million, so maybe that was the purpose.
Really no way we'll ever know.
by PaulThomas on
Nov 15, 2007 10:09 PM PST
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Haren to Boston makes no sense to me
Why would Boston trade for Haren if it involved giving up Buchholz? Buchholz is younger and cheaper than Haren, and may very well outpitch Haren over the next three years (after which Haren is a free agent and Buchholz is still under control for three years.) Lester is not at Buchholz's level, but he has the potential to be better than Haren over the next three years and is also under control for three years longer than Haren. Without one of those pitchers or Ellsbury involved, it seems unlikely that Beane would want to trade Haren to Boston, and Boston would be giving up young talent to address a problem that they don't have because their rotation is 7-8 deep without Haren. I think this is one of those rumors that some journalist made up, because Haren to Boston doesn't happen unless either the A's front office is stupid or Boston's front office is stupid. Neither Oakland or Boston is stupid, so I call bullshit on this rumor.
by BlameChannel53 on
Nov 15, 2007 12:15 PM PST
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I mean, I guess any player has the potential
but there's literally zero reason to expect Lester to outpitch Haren over the next three years.
Go look at their numbers. They have virtually the same K/9 IP and Haren gives up half as many walks. He's also got the built-in advantage of being a righthander.
by PaulThomas on
Nov 15, 2007 12:24 PM PST
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Wait for PECOTA to come out
You'll be shocked to see how close those two project out over the next three years. I think Haren will be better than Lester over the next three years, but I don't the difference will be enough to offset the difference in salaries and the additional three years of control that Lester would give you.
by BlameChannel53 on
Nov 15, 2007 12:29 PM PST
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Can't speak to future years,
but Bill James projections for 2008 have Haren at about .7 runs better in ERA.
I couldn't find ZIPS for Boston.
by PaulThomas on
Nov 15, 2007 12:43 PM PST
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I looked for the same
no ZIPS on Boston yet. What I like about Pecota are the percentile rankings. I would imaging that Lester's 75% projection will be very close to Haren's mean weighted, which means that over a three year period there is a pretty fair numerical chance that Lester pitches as well as Haren. When you factor in the scouting reports on Lester prior to his cancer (which should not effect his future performance), subjectively I would say that Lester is not a guy that Boston should give up for Haren unless it was a straight up deal. That is just my opinion, however, and others would certainly disagree.
by BlameChannel53 on
Nov 15, 2007 12:49 PM PST
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This may sound insensitive,
and it's not intended to be, but... a factor that has to come into play with Lester is the risk of relapse. Cancer doesn't just go away all at once, particularly blood cancers like lymphoma which aren't concentrated in a single tumor. It's more of a gradual process-- if you're clean for a few months, you're in remission; if you're clean for a few years, you'll be monitored but basically considered cured; if you're clean for a decade you're probably out of the woods.
Lester's chances of pulling through are inestimably higher now than a year ago-- and that's great news-- but they aren't 100%, and they're not likely to be for at least another five years.
by PaulThomas on
Nov 15, 2007 1:10 PM PST
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Not insensitive and correct
The risk of recurrence has to be factored in to Lester's future performance.
by BlameChannel53 on
Nov 15, 2007 1:15 PM PST
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Ok...
Buchholz is not even close to "the best pitching prospect in the game." Good, yes, but he's not likely to become a #1 starter. He doesn't have either the high-90s heat or the pinpoint control for that.
Just throwing a no-hitter doesn't make him Verlander 2.0.
by PaulThomas on
Nov 15, 2007 12:20 PM PST
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Depends on who you ask
Kershaw is probably the best pitching prospect in the game, but Buchholz would get support from some as #2. Just in the past week I have seen glowing reports from guys like Jim Callis, Kevin Goldstein, and Keith Law. He has a very good fastball and two well above average secondary pitches. He's a pretty fantastic prospect.
by BlameChannel53 on
Nov 15, 2007 12:27 PM PST
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See, I've basically learned to pay no attention
to those things. (Particularly Law, but in his case that also has a lot to do with his massive jealousy/inferiority complex toward Billy Beane.) They're almost always front-runners-- they just tout the same guys everyone else is touting, because it's safe to do so. Particularly if they're prospects of large-market teams, as witness the love fest for the Yankees' trio this year. Chamberlain's the shit, but Hughes and Kennedy, while good, are definitely overrated.
by PaulThomas on
Nov 15, 2007 12:36 PM PST
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Yeah
I prefer to get my information from amateur posters on AN . . . Those guys get their information from talking to scouts and teams executives. You seem like a nice fellow PT, but you have an enormously high opinion of your own opinions. I'll trust the experts.
by BlameChannel53 on
Nov 15, 2007 12:43 PM PST
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So be it
I can only attempt to persuade. I guess I do have a high opinion of my opinions-- I think they're (generally) right... otherwise I wouldn't believe them.
The logician Raymond Smullyan once observed that everyone in the world is either inconsistent or conceited. Either you believe that everything you believe is true, in which case you're conceited, or you believe that some number of your beliefs are actually false, which is inconsistent!
by PaulThomas on
Nov 15, 2007 1:20 PM PST
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I don't mean to be too harsh
I think you're one of the brighter posters on AN and I tend to agree with about 95% of what you say. I guess you could say that you have a high opinion of your opinions, and I generally have a high opinion of your opinions. I do think that many people on AN tend to disregard the value of some the real bright minds that are posting on the internet (people like Law, Neyer, Goldstein, Silver, Callis, etc.) because of some perceived anti-A's bias which I frankly don't see. I often disagree with some of their opinions, but I never disregard them. I think it is always a bad idea to disregard smart people with inside access in any area of life.
by BlameChannel53 on
Nov 15, 2007 1:31 PM PST
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PT v. BC53
I've been waiting for this matchup.
by Colorado Fan on
Nov 16, 2007 9:42 AM PST
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Boston traded Hanley and Anibal Sanchez together
along with a few other specs in the Beckett/Lowell/Mota deal, IIRC.
It's not like there's no precedent for the Sawx dealing two very good prospects together.
by mikev on
Nov 15, 2007 12:46 PM PST
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Different circumstances
Boston is not scared to trade prospects, as the Beckett deal showed. However, at the time of the Beckett trade their rotation was a mess. Their rotation is now the best in baseball as it stands. No need to trade young players to address what is already an overwhelming strength.
by BlameChannel53 on
Nov 15, 2007 12:51 PM PST
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I'll definitely agree here
Boston trading for Haren makes very little sense to me. I just can't see them dealing the one guy (Lowrie) who might improve the team in 2008 as it stands, for yet another starting pitcher-- and I'm sure that Lowrie would be a must-include in any putative trade package for Haren.
by PaulThomas on
Nov 15, 2007 1:14 PM PST
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Saw one Mets-A's rumor that had
Haren for Maine, Millings, and Heilmann. That would be a trade worthy of some serious thought.
I think Maine is an incredible talent and a front of the rotation starter. Heilmann would shore up the 'pen, especially if Duke goes to the roation. Millings to CF.
by WannaBeGM on Nov 15, 2007 11:56 AM PST 0 recs
thats the same deal we've been talking about
with Blanton, or Zito when he was still with us.
Haren is more valuable than both, and those same players now have less service time left.
by Zonis on
Nov 15, 2007 12:02 PM PST
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Thought we once wanted those three for Blanton
and Mets thought we were asking for too much. (Not that I was there or anything)
Haren makes that a doable trade and Maine isn't an unknown anymore. Hell Haren for Maine is almost a straight up, then we get two more players in the deal.
by WannaBeGM on
Nov 15, 2007 12:08 PM PST
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What?
There's no way the Mets would give up all three of those guys for Blanton. Minaya would have to have a simultaneous stroke, heart attack and brain injury before he would agree to that deal.
by PaulThomas on
Nov 15, 2007 12:09 PM PST
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I *love* Lastedge Millings!
by JediLeroy on
Nov 16, 2007 9:52 AM PST
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Nothin' like a good oonerspism
by JediLeroy on
Nov 16, 2007 4:48 PM PST
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I've said it before...
and I'll say it again. Nothing (short of a major, blow BB out of the water deal.. I'm talking a Johan Santana) is worth trading Danny this offseason. If Danny is worth this much now, he'll be worth more midseason and after the 2008 season. If you read the Glenn article about how stubborn BB is supposedly in moving Blanton than that feeling should be magnified. I think this is a moot point as without A-Rod on LAA, the As should and will compete. What I'm reading is flattering interest from other teams but nothing that would make me even ponder moving Danny. And I'm hoping BB feels the same way.
by AsWin on Nov 15, 2007 12:49 PM PST 0 recs
Don't get too worried
There is probably less than a 10% chance that Haren is dealt. In order to trade Haren, Beane is going to need a top major league ready pitching prospect along with either a young MLB position player or one or two other quality prospects. Unless Coletti wants to get stupid this offseason, I just don't see any other teams that match up well with what Beane would require for Haren. My bet is that Haren stays at least until July, and probably for longer than that.
by BlameChannel53 on
Nov 15, 2007 12:58 PM PST
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True...
LAD is really the only fit, and being an Cali boy he probably wouldn't mind being moved there. But even still, if you look at what they are willing to give up for Cabrera, if BB were to wait (which I expect him to do) we could get that plus. Young pitching should trump all. As someone said before me on this thread, we can't replace Danny. It makes more sense to remain competitive, give Danny a track record then if we still feel the need to rebuild, ponder moving him. The same goes for Blanton, Harden, and even Gaudin.
by AsWin on
Nov 15, 2007 1:10 PM PST
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maybe
Hughes and Kennedy?
Kershaw and someone else?
Buckholz, Crisp and greek god?
Sizemore and Crisp?
by closetasfan on Nov 15, 2007 12:53 PM PST 0 recs
No..no..no... and no..
Remember we have three years to play with. Danny last year arguably had a better year than Santana. I don't expect his arm to fall off and with the FA market strong in SP next year, there will be a lot of frustrated teams that don't want to pay through the nose. If we can contend (and I think we will) and Danny has another solid year and doesn't look like he is a one year wonder then he could command an army. Not to mention if he did well in a playoff situation. It's alright for BB to gauge interest (which is what he is doing) but moving Danny right now is as premature as it would be to move the other "H" Harden.
by AsWin on
Nov 15, 2007 12:57 PM PST
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While I agree it would be premature to force
a Harden trade, if another team offers a blue-chipper for him, the A's need to pull the trigger even if they aren't going for the "rebuild plan". For one thing, I'm convinced he has undiagnosed structural damage in his shoulder a la Jason Schmidt; for another, he's approaching free agency and his trade value is only going to go down from here.
by PaulThomas on
Nov 15, 2007 1:29 PM PST
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I agree..
that if the ideal trade for Harden comes along that you should pull the trigger. If you don't show up for work, you are going to get passed (and I feel both Danny and Joe have).
However, is anyone going to offer that? Next year you could have Bedard, Sabathia, Santana, Sheets, Oswalt, Peavy, and Willis (I think FLA hangs onto him to see if they can increase his value) as FA. Now obviously in that list, Willis is the weakest link, but what I am saying is I think a lot of teams are going to be in wait and see mode. Why part with stud prospect whomever when in a year you could get Peavy.
by AsWin on
Nov 15, 2007 1:35 PM PST
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Because they don't want to wait until next year?
He's about 3,237 times better than anyone available this year (save Santana, also through trade) ...
I'd think the team would be a lot better off (in terms of return) dealing him when the market is completely barren.
by devo on
Nov 15, 2007 4:05 PM PST
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Totally with you
If there's a value trade to make with Harden, we should do it now and live with the angst if he ever puts it together. I can't think of Harden without thinking of Mark Prior: a talented pitcher who has a series of minor appearing problems that linger into long periods of disability, which leads to fans questioning the pitcher's manhood and pain tolerance, climaxing in exploratory surgery that reveals an incredibly damaged shoulder.
Maybe Harden will win a Cy Young some year. Let some other team live that dream.
by BlameChannel53 on
Nov 15, 2007 1:37 PM PST
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Haren's not the kind of pitcher you can replace
Let's get that out of the way right now. If we trade Haren, we're not getting a guy like him back. (one capable of a very, very high workload at an elite level.) There's only 10 or so pitchers in all of baseball that can do what Haren does.
I guess if you're blowing it up then sure, why not, go all out. But Haren, as one of the top ten starters in baseball, is just not replaceable. That said, a package from Boston would almost certainly have to include Bucholz and Lowrie, and probably a third entity. If we're going all out blowup, that's not a bad haul.
by walk off bunt on Nov 15, 2007 12:54 PM PST 0 recs
I don't like the idea of trading Haren
Blanton I could see, but you just don't get an ace like that very often. Yeah, it happened when the A's dealt Mulder, but they also traded Hudson and didn't get much back for him.
This team went to the ALCS in 2006. If the A's have some health this year, there is reason to believe that it could get there again especially since they've actually gotten better and younger with Buck and Barton. I'm just not sure how the injured players will bounce back. It's a tough one to wrestle with and I don't envy Beane's position right now.
by Blez on
Nov 15, 2007 1:09 PM PST
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+1
I think I've made it quite clear how much I dislike the idea of moving Haren this offseason. But my justification goes slightly beyond his ace status. I do agree that an ace is hard to find. Apparently now the Os don't want to trade, or at least approach a long term extension, because of their belief in the importance of an ace. I tend to agree, but my reluctance in trading him is because he is also our staff leader. Someone the younger guys on the staff, in varying degrees, look up to, mold themselves after, and ask questions to. If we do move Haren, who fills that role? Who can the younger guys go to? Not to mention I think moving Danny would destroy any winning clubhouse atmosphere.
Or even worse, let's pretend we trade Danny mideason 2008 for stud prospect XYZ, who ends up being another Rich Harden and always is injured. Now we've given up the rarest of commodities a cheap, durable, never injured workhorse of an ace who also had the dual role of staff leader. It is just way too much to give up. (Rebuilding or not). I still argue we should center our future team around Danny, not send him off.
by AsWin on
Nov 15, 2007 2:02 PM PST
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If BB wanted to be really clever...
From what I can gather from ESPN.com, if BB were to hold on to Danny and then trade him mid season (if we completely fell out of contention) to someplace he absolutely hated... Danny would have the option to opt out of the contract and become a free agent. Since he would have been traded with multi-years remaining in his contact. Thus, we would be able to keep whatever prospects we got from Danny and then claim Danny back as a free agent. Basically, some team would get a few months of Danny and we would gain Danny plus whatever prospects we received in the trade.
by AsWin on Nov 15, 2007 7:57 PM PST 0 recs
I'm not so sure winning Dan Haren as a free agent
is possible. Either way, I'd love to read whatever it is you're reading on ESPN.com. Link?
by Rocktopus on
Nov 15, 2007 8:20 PM PST
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Link...
From ESPN: Link
In case the link doesn't work, here is the text:
Also, a player with five years of service time who is traded in the middle of a multi-year contract may demand another trade prior to the start of the season following the one in which he was traded.
As for winning him in free agency, I think we could find the money and the desire is obviously there on Danny's part.
by AsWin on
Nov 15, 2007 8:31 PM PST
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Well that doesn't exactly make him a free agent.
It just allows him to demand a trade.
by Rocktopus on
Nov 15, 2007 11:00 PM PST
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You are aware
that this would completely devalue him as a trading chip, right?
There's literally no way the A's could deal him for anything like the kind of haul they need to get for him without a written waiver of that right. And in turn, that would restrict their trade options to teams Haren likes.
Also, it doesn't give the player the right to opt out of his contract-- only to demand another trade. Odds are the other team wouldn't be exactly jazzed about trading him back to Oakland.
This is actually a very very bad thing for Oakland, at least from the standpoint of trade flexibility.
by PaulThomas on
Nov 15, 2007 11:08 PM PST
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nothing all that new
This is what Vazquez did after he was traded to Arizona, and why he's with Chicago now.
by Cutthemullet on
Nov 16, 2007 1:51 AM PST
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3 years, 154 days ...
by devo on
Nov 16, 2007 9:52 AM PST
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Only you and his stalker know that
without looking it up.
by Nico on
Nov 16, 2007 9:45 PM PST
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