Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Drug Testing, Alistair Overeem & UFC 146's Potential Legacy

Tidbits from Taj

While I usually like to post intense, sweeping, all-encompassing rants, I'd like to take a step back for once and just casually and briefly offer my opinions on some noteworthy topics affecting our boys in Green N Gold.

Star-divide

Duke to the Rotation - Count me in as a supporter of this idea...if done for a combination of the right reasons and with good (mostly medical) information supporting the decision.

I actually had the pleasure of having a one-on-one, very off-the-record and casual, but lengthy, chat with Duke near the end of last season. He said he enjoyed his late-inning role and would of course do what it took for the team to win ballgames, but that he and his agent have labored hard for the team to consider him as a starter AND to offer him a long-term contract. He didn't get into health issues, but said he feels much more comfortable as a starter (I'm sure every pitcher does when looking at recent free agent starting pitcher contracts!)

If it can be assumed that Duke would be healthier over a full season as a starter with regular 4 days of rest (not unreasonable to assume if the uneven bullpen workload affected his health at all) and if his success translated reasonably well to the rotation (also not unreasonable due to his past success as a starter, his control, ability to get K's, and 4-pitch repertoire) then I'm all for it.

From a business and player-relations perspective, this move could be a relatively low-risk coup for Beane. Say he meticulously reviews Duke's medical reports and off-season progress and thinks, with reasonable certainty, that he (Justin) could be stretched out successfully. He then approaches Duke's camp over the winter and says, "We're making you a starter and giving you a significant pay raise next season on the condition that you agree to a two-year deal with a third-year option attached". So maybe Beane throws Justin $2.5 million next season and $3.75 million in 2009 along with a $5 million option attached for 2010.

If agreed to, that contract would give Justin what he wants (a chance at starting and a long-ish term contract) while Billy and the team get either a potentially solid starter at a huge discount OR a proven, successful late-inning reliever at roughly market rate, with limited financial and contractual risk. At least to me, that arrangement would make everybody happy (even me and I won't get a dime from anybody!) But, as is the usually the case with the A's, this call is ALL about health.

(As far as the bullpen taking a huge hit sans Justin, I don't buy it. One thing Beane's got fairly good at the past few seasons is building a solid bullpen. Embree was a solid signing, and if he thinks we need more back there, then he'll get it in a similar fashion).


Getting Some Offense From SS and CF
- I doubt Billy is going to be able to swing any type of deal that simultaneously gets rid of either or both of Crosby and Kotsay while at the same time bringing in capable replacements for them (including free agents). And I really don't even think Beane thinks that he NEEDS to find replacements for them. So we're stuck with them. But we shouldn't be hopelessly stuck with them like we were last season.

Crosby should be platooned with Donnie Murphy. Murphy crushes left-handed pitching, while Crosby struggles equally against righties and lefties. Crosby is the better defender and Beane favorite, so he will remain the starter in most games. But the team will get an offensive boost from the position once a week or so, which will be nice.

As far as center, I am on-board with at least experimenting with transitioning Buck to the position. I know PaulThomas, and probably others, are vehemently against this idea. But I think that Buck has the talent and instincts to handle the position. In his limited time last season, Buck had a perfect fielding percentage while handling all three outfield positions. He also had a very high zone rating for all three positions. He's got a legit right-field arm and is fleet enough to cover a lot of ground in the field. It's a given that as a young outfielder he needs to diligently improve his route to fly balls. We shouldn't expect that a 23-year old who is two years out of college and one season removed from Double-A is going to be as fundamentally sound in the outfield as a 10-year veteran. But we should recognize that Buck does indeed have the skillset to become at least an average center fielder.

In addition, having Mark Kotsay, one of the best in the majors at recognizing hits and taking the best routes to balls-in-play, on the roster to mentor Buck is a luxury the team should exploit. And with both Kotsay and Chris Denorfia in the mix for next season, the team will have plenty of solid defensive options should Buck not make the cut in center. I really see no valid reason for the team NOT to at least try Buck in center for awhile. The organization has no near-major league ready prospects that could handle center field. And at the very least, getting Buck more practice in the position will allow the team to at least use him as a 2nd or 3rd center fielder and spare us the agony of watching Swisher out there in emergency situations.

Right-handed Pop - Another reason to move Buck away from the corners semi-permanently is to open up a spot in the field and on the roster for another bat. There is really no other place on the diamond to logically add an offensive piece. Cust should be a full-time DH. All the other positions will be filled by incumbents from last season or talented rookies (Suzuki, Barton).

And let's face it, Beane is not going to overpay and/or go 4, 5 or 6 years with Aaron Rowand, Mike Cameron, Andruw Jones or Torii Hunter to get a little more offense out of center. The team is going to have to add more offense either from within or via trade, and the easiest position to target is corner outfield.

Chris Denorfia is a wild card here. If he's fully healthy, his minor league track record suggests that he could be a strong defensive outfielder with some right-handed pop. He's been a fairly consistent high-average hitter, which would make him a nice compliment to our low-average middle-order guys. But it's hard to make bold predictions for a guy who hasn't played a game of professional baseball in over a year. Taking that uncertainty into account, opening up a corner spot could allow Beane to make a play for:

Xavier Nady: he's a guy Beane has pursued in the past, and when Beane sets his sights on someone, he usually gets them to Oakland, one way or another. With a major transition time unfolding in Pittsburgh, the Bucs might be willing to unload Xavier and his salary for some A-AA level minor league talent. I've never seen Xavier actually play, but he seems to have been a college stud that has shown some power as a professional and a decent glove in the outfield.

Moises Alou: Sure, the guy's 40-years old, but he still raked last season and played a decent left field. If the Mets don't exercise his option, he should be pursued. He would be THE perfect compliment for this offense: high-slugging, high-contact, low-strikeout, right-handed, one-year, limited-money commitment.

Jayson Werth: If the Phils re-sign Rowand and/or don't find a way to pawn off Pat Burrell, Jayson might become expendable with Shane Victorino and Michael Bourn major-league ready. The Phils would probably want relief pitching in exchange, which could be worked out depending on who they ask for. Jayson caught my eye this year when he finally recovered from his endless string of injuries to go on a tear in which he led all of baseball in hitting with runners in scoring position for a long stretch of time. Usually, my stat-head senses would say, "Whatever; he got hot. There's no such thing as clutch hitting." But the thing with Jayson is that he hits a TON of line drives (about 25% of his total balls in play the last 3 seasons in which he's played) which I think has really buoyed his batting-average-to-balls-in-play (which was almost .400 this past season) which in turn has led to more sharp, run-scoring hits. So, while clutch hitting might not be a skill, hitting line-drives definitely is, and Jayson's pretty good at doing that.

Waiver-Wire Activity - I'm not too concerned about why A's brass let Jay Marshall go on waivers earlier this week after keeping him on the active roster all season. When Marshall began the season he put up decent numbers. But as the season wore on he became gradually more exposed for what he is: a reliever with very limited usefulness that had never pitched above A ball before this season. But since last season turned south so suddenly, it made some sense for the team just to hang on to Marshall to see what he could do. He didn't impress, and the team probably realized that it had a glut of left-handed relievers already on the 40-man roster (Embree, Blevins, Braden, Meyer, diNardo, Flores) that are probably more useful pitchers than Marshall at this point in time. He was worth a try, it didn't work, he got claimed.

On the other side of the coin, I'm hoping to see Beane and Co. clear more space on the 40-man roster to continue scouring the waiver-wire to make their own claims on players and to protect some of our Rule V draft eligible prospects. Jose Garcia was a nice pickup. I'm hoping that once teams start deciding whom to non-tender and the A's get their internal roster-shuffling in order, Beane will make more of these pickups. High up on my list: Chin hui-Tsao, who is likely to be non-tendered by the Dodgers. He's an injury wreck, but if he's signed to a minor-league contract and can regain some semblance of health, he could be a really nice addition to the pen or even possible starter since he's always had wicked stuff and good control.

On the 40-man front, the team should get some relief when Stewart, Piazza and DaVannon file for free agency or retire. That should open a few spots for guys like Landon Powell, Richie Robnett or Jeff Gray, who are going to be draft eligible. But if the team wants to really add some proven depth to the major league team (by possibly signing a free agent or two and/or picking up a Rule V-er for themselves), then A's brass will have to retain some flexibility on the roster by non-tendering potentially injured/expensive players (Calero, Snelling) or trading away excesses (Dan Johnson). The roster-shuffling alone should make this "hot stove" season interesting for the A's.

Know Your Enemy - One external development we A's fans should keep our eye on this winter is how new Angels GM Tony Reagins handles his first off-season. First off, on a personal note, you have to be encouraged by Tony's story: the product of a home with only a single-mother to care for a large family (Tony's dad died when he was 4) Tony seems to have really taken the initiative on his own to be successful, first going to community college, then to Cal State Fullerton, then interning for the Angels for a full 7 years before being added to their full-time staff, thereby working his way up the organizational ladder. Gotta commend a guy for hard-work and persistence, especially against the odds.

But moving on - what can we expect from this guy as the fresh-faced puppeteer of our arch-rivals? Will he be the wheeling-dealing, shoot-from-the hip deal-maker or just boringly similar to Stonehands? Well, one thing that can be assumed from his background (Marketing major in college, Marketing intern for the Halos, Scout, manager of baseball operations, Director of Player Development) is that he probably really buys into the Angels' on-field philosophy - aggressive base-running, high-average hitters, speed over power, etcetera. Being brought up painstakingly through the organization, he probably also has some kind of an inherent loyalty to the minor league players he's overseen for so many years, which means he won't be mortgaging good prospects for overpaid veterans.

But, as a marketing major and new guy looking to make a good impression on the fans and ownership, he probably also understands the need for the Angels to add more big power to their lineup - without taking too much of a risk - financial, PR or otherwise.

So taking all that into account, I would guess that, for the most part, Reagins will follow in the steps of Stonehands - who's being retained as a "consultant" to the team - at least for the short-term. I would rule out big plays for Bonds (too controversial) or A-Rod (too much money involved for a freshman GM) this winter, but would instead predict a medium-sized trade going down.

Miggy looks finally primed to leave Baltimore and to convert to third base permanently. If the Angels offer anything close to what they did a year or so ago for him (some combination of Ervin Santana, Joe Saunders, Chone Figgins, Reggie Willits, Erick Aybar, maybe a lower-level prospect) I think a deal gets done, and that will be the big off-season acquisition. I could also see the team making a play to sign Carlos Silva for some reason. Nothing concrete here, just my gut feeling. The Halos have a "thing" for Venezuelan pitchers, and I get the impression that they aren't totally thrilled with a back-rotation that includes Dustin Moseley and/or Joe Saunders.

So there you have it. I predict Reagins will trade for Tejada and sign Carlos Silva. A little help on offense and a little help on defense.

Comment 79 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Regarding Duke as starter / long-term deal,

one plus going in, for the A's, is that Duke's injury history makes him far more likely to sign a financially reasonable deal, because the risk is largely on the A's side for this one - which might make him affordable. Perhaps a deal for multiple years, but less money than Duke's talent is worth, would be a win-win for both sides.

Tough call - my gut says Beane won't commit money to someone whose health is that much of a question mark. Duke is one of my very favorite players, so it's hard for me to be objective, but I can understand if Billy doesn't go for a long-term deal unless it's REALLY reasonable $$$-wise.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 19, 2007 8:07 PM PDT reply actions  

If Duke agreed to the contract

that Taj is suggesting, the upside would be so huge that, if there's any reason at all to be optimistic, it would be very hard to not offer it. He's offering $11.25m for what could easily (if he's healthy) return $50m in value -- and could optimistically be worth upwards of $60 or even 70m.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 19, 2007 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wait, wait, wait

$70M for 3 years? That's $23M a year.

Johan Santana may not make $23M a year. (Then again, he may; he is Johan Santana. But Duke is, not to put too fine a point on it, not.)

I can't realistically see Duke as better than an open market #2 starter, which is in the neighborhood of $15M a season (which would hypothetically max out at $45M).

by PaulThomas on Oct 19, 2007 11:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Be worth =/= earn

Santana in a down year was worth about $25m. He earned a significant amount less than that.

The key concept of the moneyball philosophy is that any team that doesn't have a premium payroll needs to be returning more talent per dollar spent than would be expected.

Maybe $40-45m would be a more realistic median return ... but the fact remains, it's still well, well above what Duke would be receiving.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 20, 2007 2:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

yes, yes, and yes!

Duke is the man when he's healthy and I've been all for this move in seasons past. Duke has been lobbying the organization for the last few years about this and I really think he deserves a shot now, especially considering all the younger arms the club has in the pen.

Low risk, high reward for both sides if it all works out. By the way, JD's  game worn jersey is the only one that I own for an A's player...and he personally signed it for me last year at fan fest. The dude is just "the coolest muchacho you could hope to meet."

Also, the A's should consider moving Jack Cust to centerfield with a pair of roller skates and some epoxy for his glove........nice one!

by mrod on Oct 21, 2007 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Random Thoughts....

I'm not a big proponent of the whole Duke to the rotation idea. I don't begrudge he and his agent pushing to be a starter. However, don't most pitchers envision (prefer?) themselves as being part of the starting rotation. As for his "past success as a starter"...What did I miss? He's started an entire 5 of his 197 career games. Nothing about those starts indicates anything that equates to success as a starter. Duke has thrived as an 8th inning set-up man - he was an All-Star in that spot after all - and his abscence from the 'pen was a major factor in this years abismal season. Imagine a bullpen with BOTH Embree and  Duke. That makes things tough for the opposition in those final three innings - which are huge nowadays with the ridiculous notion that 6 innings of 3-run ball is a "quality start." (guys like Don Newcombe who worked 31+ innings over a nine-day stretch in the great N.L pennant race of 1951 would be laughing...) All that  being said, the proposed numbers of a long-term contract for Duke (as a bullpen staple) seem spot-on.

As for Buck in CF, I'm still a Kotsay guy. He's led MLB in OF assists over the past few years and would be a legit Gold-Glove guy if in a bigger market. I'm not ready to give up on Kotsay after last years back-related disaster. Buck will be solid in RF and he does have the range and arm to be among the top-tier A.L RF's.

Agree/support  idea of Alou as new DH IF he'll agree to a reasonable contract. Guy can still flat-out rake and has tremendous bat speed for a 40-year old. But he's downplayed any interest in going to the A.L as a DH in the past and infers that he wants to play OF for an NL club back east. But, Oakland would be a good fit for the guy who could still be productive without the wear and tear of an OF position. ( I know this sounds like a rehash of many rationales for Piazza, but Alou is still a viable RH power bat)

by WannaBeGM on Oct 19, 2007 8:24 PM PDT reply actions  

Well...

The beauty of my proposal is that Alou will actually be an outfielder in the big scheme of things. Cust will DH full time.

The A's actually showed interest in Alou last winter as an OF/DH so this idea is not anethema to the organization.

Buck to center, Swish to right and Cust to full-time DH would actually open up left field for Alou.

by Taj Adib on Oct 20, 2007 1:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

looking at the past few years

as well as his age, Alou would likely not be available for extended periods of the season if he was mostly expected to play left. He might be available more if he was mostly expected to DH –- and that would likely mean Cust had to play OF more than most of us would like.

by OaklandSi on Oct 20, 2007 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'd be more open to Buck/Swish in CF ...

if the incoming OF was at least an above average defensive OF. If the move isn't to make room for Cust or similar in LF, it'd be a lot more palatable.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 19, 2007 9:12 PM PDT reply actions  

taj mahal and the gone fishin blues

i think BB does good bullpens because he doesn't commit long term to the up and down nature of a bullpen. rag tag on the cheap and a lot of luck is IMHO the path to bullpen happiness. our SS and initial CF were so bad last year, selling 'em at the bottom a worse idea than going with them for bounce back seasons and reasons. 2008 OF is kotsay, swish, buck. once again yanks, halos, sox, mets and, really, who cares, will climb over each other for the free agent names. BB will patiently wait for the better bargains at the seconds table.  

jesus saves. and espo scores on the rebound.

by oakath on Oct 19, 2007 9:51 PM PDT reply actions  

"tidbits from taj"

a recurring feature?

Brainless Automaton #439

by rubin sierra on Oct 19, 2007 9:59 PM PDT reply actions  

or a separate a's blog like notes from the nat?
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 19, 2007 10:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Buck

I wouldn't really say I'm vehemently opposed to Buck being there. The problem I have with Buck in CF is that I'm not convinced that the ability to "read" the flight paths of balls is a learnable trait. Some part of it, at least, seems to be an innate module of the human brain. So while I'd expect Buck to do better as he learns the position, I would not expect significant improvement in the area of tracking balls, and I'm afraid this will always limit his ability to be an above-average defender in center field.

That said, I think the team could get by with a below-average center fielder under plenty of circumstances. If Stewart were still an A, an outfield of Stewart, Buck and Swish would be somewhat above average defensively, because both Stewart and Swisher are way above average in LF and RF and compensate for the team's shortcomings in center. The problem is that most of the hypothetical "big bats" out there seem to be outfielders with fielding problems. Bonds, Burrell, Dunn and Cust all would be defensive disasters in conjunction with a weak center fielder.

I think the A's should use next year to transition Denorfia into the CF role by initially using him in platoon with Kotsay, and eventually giving him an expanded role as the season progresses.

by PaulThomas on Oct 19, 2007 11:44 PM PDT reply actions  

Of course...

Duke becomes a top-flight starter as Harden fills the vacancy in the relief corps.  

Why do we expect that both pitchers will suddenly become healthier by switching roles?  Is it a case of try anything and see what works?  Why would Harden be healthier in a role that we're claiming is less than ideal for a pitcher?

I'd love to see Duke given a shot in the rotation.  Haren, Harden, Blanton, Duke, and Gaudin?  That's a shitty draw for any team playing Oakland.  Fuck the bullpen when you've got those five.  Well, as long as Arthur Rhodes isn't back there.

It's Rhodes Scholar Night at the Coliseum tonight.

by Scottbass on Oct 20, 2007 1:26 AM PDT reply actions  

I love Moises Alou.

I don't think he gets enough credit for being the incredible hitter he is.  That said, do we really need another guy who's guaranteed to make a trip to the DL at some point?

So it goes.

by jeepers on Oct 20, 2007 8:43 AM PDT reply actions  

I agree

Alou is 41 and has played in fewer than 100 games in each of the last two seasons. We've got a younger and cheaper Bobby Crosby for that kind of attendance! Besides, I think it's likely that the Mets will hang on to Alou since they're probably not goin to bring back Shawn Green at $10 million.

Werth's track record is even worse. After a career high 142 games played in 2002 he's been lucky to hit the century mark since.

  1. 108 Games
  1. 103 Games
  1. 117 Games
  1. Missed the season
  1. 98 Games

Nady's kinda interesting but he's a relatively cheap and productive player on a Pirates team that doesn't have many alternatives in the OF. I think you'd have to give up a pretty fair chip to trade for him.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 20, 2007 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm on the fence, myself.

I love that bat--if I were to draw up a description of the kind of right-handed bat the A's need, no free agent would fit the profile better.  I'm just unsure of the number of games played needed to make it worthwhile, and whether or not he could reach that total.

So it goes.

by jeepers on Oct 20, 2007 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

Nothing wrong with the bat...

except when it doesn't show up to work.

All-Star talent doesn't mean much when it can't make it on to the field.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 20, 2007 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

Now I don't believe the Mets will let Alou walk

but, most of his injuries are due to playing the OF, and trying his best to play the OF field. He's old and injury prone, but he doesn't loaf in the field. Thus, lots of niggling injuries that pile up. An AL team doesn't have to deal of that. Of course, there is then the issue of Cust.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 20, 2007 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

The diary suggests Alou to the OF

Like you say, DHing could preserve Alou's health and increase his availability.

So the real question revolves around Cust. How good of a DH would the A's have to bring in for people to accept Cust in the outfield?

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 20, 2007 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well, last week

I suggested Jeff Kent as a DH and backup infielder, thus moving Cust to the outfield. Lots of folks would not like that move but I personally think he would be great in the middle of th lineup. Still has good pop, line drive hitter, good ob & obp, and is an rbi machine over his career. His contract for 2008, if the Dodgers pick up his option, is 9 million, I believe. Very doable if A's trade for him or if they decline his option, then he is a free agent in which case he could probable be had for close to the same amount or perhaps even less.

Moises Alou would be good for a DH as well but I would not put him in the outfield at all.....and that says alot about my paper thin confidence in Jack cust;s fielding abilities...............

by mrod on Oct 21, 2007 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

You'd put Cust in the OF

but not Alou? Seems backwards to moi.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 21, 2007 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

I thought that the Mets

offered Alou another deal? What about Pat Burrell? Is he affordable?

by IM4Oakgal on Oct 20, 2007 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Burrell has one year
$14M left on his contract..

The Mets have a $7.5M option on Alou.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 20, 2007 11:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ok that blows

the Burrell hope. Bonds would be cheaper than that. It's frustrating to me because you can see the potential for a decent lineup. Buck hits...Barton was hitting..and Cust needs one more big bat for him to really produce. A cust/Bonds or Cust/Alou or Cust/ Burrell combo along with those other guys could be such a hopemaker. If Swish could step up his game then we might have something to hope on for next season.

by IM4Oakgal on Oct 20, 2007 11:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Another well written diary Taj

CF is the big issue this offseason because there do seem to be FA options that would fill the hole nicely. Even if Beane believed that Kotsay could completely bounce back in 2008 it's unlikely that the A's would be willing to invest in him beyond that. There aren't any CF prospects in the organization that are projected to be ready by 2009 so if niether Buck (or Swisher) is the long term answer in CF than the A's will have to go shopping within the year.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 20, 2007 9:49 AM PDT reply actions  

What about Herrera?

You thnk not ready for 2009, or not ultimately a CFer, or not good enough for the show?

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2007 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes
Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 20, 2007 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'll answer

Herrera could play CF in the show right now.  It's unclear how and when he'll hit.  It's very unclear whether he can stay healthy.

In short, you can't count on him being part of your plans.  

But he could still be a very good regular.  He's still just 21, despite seeming like he's been around forever, and he's missed two full years of dev time.  I will be tracking him in winter ball this year.

by jakarta on Oct 20, 2007 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

So Denorfia is chopped liver, then?

Remember, the guy hit like .350 in AAA at age 24. He doesn't suck. It's not his fault that the two highest-paid offensive players in Cincinnati were Griffey and Dunn.

by PaulThomas on Oct 20, 2007 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

Actually, he hit 349 when he was 25

And that happened before he had cadaver parts surgically attatched to his body. All of my sources peg him as a 4th outfielder and an average defensive CFer.

So I wouldn't call him chopped liver, but I would be hesitant to call him my unequivical starter in CF. At this point he's an option but I'd shop for better.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 20, 2007 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

All of your "sources"?

Wow. Sounds super duper double top secret. Did they agree to comment on Denorfia's mediocrity only on condition of anonymity, due to the sensitive nature of the topic? Did they furtively pass you coded scouting reports in a dimly lit parking lot in the dead of night, with ominous music playing in the background? Or are you allowed to divulge their identities?

by 74mk on Oct 20, 2007 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Who are you,

why do you think you're funny and who gave you the bright idea to ask me a question is such a smartass manner? Because I'm telling you, whoever that person is isn't your friend.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 20, 2007 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Huh?

Geez.

Take a deep breath or two, and consider taking yourself a bit less seriously.

You're clearly a deeply knowledgeable observer of the A's, and baseball generally, grover. I really enjoy and look forward to your contributions to the site. That said, I had to laugh a little at the Gammons/Olney-eque phraseology ("my sources peg him as ..."). Sorry if my stab at humor missed it's mark, but, well, get over it.

For someone who lapses not infrequently into a tone both caustic and patronizing, you certainly seem to have a thin skin. You should probably choose - the thin skin or the arrogance - because eventually, trying to juggle both might prove untenable.

by 74mk on Oct 20, 2007 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Meow! Reeooowr!!!

<sits back, opens up a cold one, places bets>

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2007 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh please

It's not like I could do any serious damage to the guy. I don't know him well enough to know his pressure points and I don't care enough to bother figuring him out.

Sheesh.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 20, 2007 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

That would be an untenable combination

Lucky for me your skills at personal evaluation are on par with your humor. I'm not thin skinned, just quick to drop the hammer on anyone who strives to annoy or irritate me rather than engage in a meaningful conversation. That's pretty much been my style since I darkened AN's doorstep so it's safe to say you misjudged my motivation here.

I don't know you. There are plenty of people on this site who could have come up and said the exact same thing to me and I would have laughed at the joke. Why? Because I know them and have established a relationship with them. I am not the type of person that you can approach by acting like an ass, matter o' fact, I share that trait with most people. Keep that in mind next time you have a question.

Because if you had actually asked your question without acting like a smart ass I'd have been happy to tell you that my sources include BA, PECOTA, Sickels, THT, minorleaguesplits.com and whatever scouting reports I could find. And what I've read from scouts (sorry, they tend to remain nameless when they share their insights with writers) matches with the defensive metrics... Denorfia does not project to be a defensive standout in CF and his bat is merely solid-average.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 20, 2007 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Denorfia does not project to be a defensive standout in CF and his bat is merely solid-average.

But that's still a nice improvement, which I would take over a long term deal with someone like Rowand.

by mikeA on Oct 20, 2007 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not thrilled with the CF FA's myself

I've got concerns with all of them.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 20, 2007 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sigh

You're right.

It's shocking, just shocking, that I would have the temerity to approach you on anything other than tiptoes, head bowed, eyes averted. Especially with a mildly esoteric All The President's Men reference. (the horrors!)

Really, I should be thanking you for "dropping the hammer" on me with such dispatch. It has helped me to better know my place, to understand that one ought to approach posters on baseball blogs the same way one might approach a coyote in the wild - with caution, a certain reverence, and most of all, no jokes.

So: I will, from this point forward, give you a wide, eggshell-strewn berth, and endeavor not to "annoy" or "irritate" you. And I will try my best to ensure that all future posts qualify as "meaningful." If you're willing, I'd be happy to submit them for your perusal/approval prior to posting; that way, I'd be certain not to waste anyone's time with less-than-incisive commentary. I beg you, in fact, to accept this burden. Without your help, I'll be left a quivering, hesitant mess, unable to muster the confidence to click "post".

I'm so grateful - honestly, I can't stress that enough. In the course of just two pithy, devastating replies, you've shown me the error of my ways, forced me to rethink my entire approach to interpersonal interaction, social media, and ... well ... life, generally. This, my friend (sorry, I know we're not friends, but the exuberance of the moment is kind of intoxicating), is a life changing moment. And I owe it all to you.

by 74mk on Oct 20, 2007 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

{golf clap}
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 20, 2007 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

LMAO

Now this is getting amusing.

by IM4Oakgal on Oct 20, 2007 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

My lessons can be harsh

But now you are beginning to learn.

Oh, and next time you reply be sure to put everything in italics, it looks prettier that way.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 20, 2007 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not taking sides here, exactly

but this was one of the funniest things I've read in a long, long time. Well played, sir.

by PaulThomas on Oct 20, 2007 11:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

grover, your points explain why

I would love to see the A's pick up Kenny Lofton on a one-year deal. Platoon him with Denorfia, and if Denorfia proves capable of hitting major league pitching you can ease him into the full-time role in 2009. This overlooks Kotsay, but on the A's, if you have 5 players (like Buck, Swisher, Denorfia, Lofton, Kotsay) you know they'll all play because the conditioning coach won't know how to prevent hamstring injuries and the trainer will never have heard of a thumb guard. Or Swisher will crash into a wall.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2007 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

I could live with it!

Along with Barton, Ellis, Crosby/Murphy, Chavez/Hannahan, Suzuki, and Cust? I could definitely live with it.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 20, 2007 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

adding them all up

you get 13 position players (including one DH). You'd need another catcher. Chances are the A's would carry 12 pitchers, meaning at least 2 of the position players named above don't make it.

Just guessing: Lofton doesn't get signed.
Chavez begins the season on the 60-day DL. Someone out of Crosby/Murphy/Hannahan doesn't remain with the A's for long.

by OaklandSi on Oct 20, 2007 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Here's my problem with Lofton...

What's his purpose in 2008? To be a stop-gap in the drive to a WS run? Because otherwise there doesn't seem to be much point. He's (probably) not going to get you any draft picks after the season and it would be foolish to commit to a 2 year deal.

The A's don't have any prospects that can be expected to play CF in 2009. So do you sign another stop-gap? Do you try Buck or Swish in CF? If you're going to do that in 2009 than it's a waste of time and money to get a stop-gap CFer for 2008, just slide over your preferred choice right now.

And if you don't like the idea of Buck or Swish in CF than this is the best market you'll ever find for signing a long term answer to CF.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 20, 2007 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

The point would be ...

that it gives the A's a year to assess what they have -- decide if Denorfia/Buck/Swish is a medium/long term solution -- give Herrera a chance to show whether or not he'll develop, Mitchell might be in the picture by then as well (or, more likely, show that he'll be a good bet for 2010) ...

Lofton is also someone who could be easily moved mid season -- the Rangers got a decent prospect for him.

I just really don't like the idea of going into the season without a safe option in CF.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 20, 2007 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

See, I still say the best bet is to just jump in

Just give the playing time you have earmarked for Lofton to the guys already on the roster and see what happens. It's the quicker, more efficient way of figuring out what you've got on hand.

I don't think Herrera is going to figure it out and like you say, Mitchell seems a few years away.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 20, 2007 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

What's the downside?

spending the money on Kenny Lofton would be much more useful than spending it on Ritchie Sexson.

Is he exactly what we need? Maybe not.

Is there someone out there who is a better fit?

Maybe there is, but I don't know who it'd be.

Not having a plan B in CF is not a good plan.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 20, 2007 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Lofton is a pointless purchase

No plan B?

Buck
Swisher
Defornia
Kotsay (I doubt the A's will be able to move him)

I may not know who plan A is, but there are certainly enough bodies around to give CF a couple goes. You want to sign Lofton with the idea of someone outplaying and replacing him.

Which probably wouldn't be what happens because the A's have trouble using their bench players when the regulars are healthy enough to stand and breath without medical assistance.

If the A's were a competent CFer away from making a post-season run then maybe Lofton would make sense. Unless Lofton can make Harden healthy and Crosby good (and that's just for staters) then I think the A's are a little further away from the Promised Land than Kenny can carry 'em.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 20, 2007 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

In my mind ...

the 2008 A's profile as being above average at every position except CF and SS, along with having an above average rotation and an above average bullpen.

It's not a team that is likely to win 100 games -- but it should contend and be exactly the kind of team that would most benefit from a couple of marginal wins.

Buck and Swisher don't really qualify as Plan Bs because in order to employ them in CF, you'd be cannibalizing one of the corners.

Unless we were to acquire someone like Sexson, moving Swish or Buck to center, essentially what you're suggesting is that Denorfia is plan A, Kotsay is plan B and Swish/Buck is plan D(esperation).

I'd like a better plan B than that.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 20, 2007 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

I disagree with your mind

Especially if you're talking offensively.

Swisher should be above-average, Buck could be if he stays healthy and Cust is still in the experimental stage. I'm sorry but 164 K's in 395 AB is a little extreme for my tastes.

Anyways, Ellis is average as is Suzuki, Barton and whoever is at 3B (if we're lucky).

Everyone knows about CF and SS.

As for the rotation, Haren and Blanton are a given but after that there are nothing but question marks. Gaudin needs to step up, DiNardo needs to prove he's not a flash in the pan, Harden is a bad joke, Braden needs to keep his fastball in the 89-90 range, Meyer is still trying to get back to where he was 3 years ago, Garcia isn't supposed to be ready until the season starts and even then he's probably going to need to head to the minors. If Duke ends up in the rotation than the A's will have to bring in a new arm to keep the bullpen at the "above average" standard.

I don't see how you can say a rotation with a hole and two question marks is above average.

Street, Duke and Embree form a good bullpen core while Casilla and Brown have the power arms that could make them more than useful. Calero looks like he's toast but oh well. So I agree with you about the strength of the bullpen.

And I've already expressed my Plan A for CF.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 20, 2007 8:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ellis is well above average for a 2b ...

Zooks is above average for a C. (An OPS+ of 99 from the catcher's position is seriously good)

Cust's 164 k's is certainly a tad extreme -- and he may just fall off some -- but he can fall off quite a bit and still achieve the "above average" standard.

You can complain about the rotation's imperfections all you want -- but unless you can name 6 teams in the AL who have better rotations, then it's above average (okay, really above median, but close enough). Boston, Anaheim ... Cleveland and Minnesota I'd say are pretty comparable.

There are no perfect teams. Every team has holes. We don't have to be perfect to be contenders.

I think I may have missed your Plan A.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 20, 2007 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Long story short

I need to finish up my diary.

As for the rotation issue:

1st class (No particular order)

Toronto
Boston
Cleveland
Minnesota

Toss-up between Detroit, Chicago and Oakland to fill 5-7.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 21, 2007 7:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

Shit!

Anaheim belongs in the 1st class division. So Detroit, Chicago and Oakland duke it out for 6-8.

Appearently I need more caffine. Excuse me as I rectify.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 21, 2007 7:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with Devo

Ellis, taking into defense, is average in his worst year. In his best years, 2005 and 2007, he is one of the best players in the AL West.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 20, 2007 11:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ellis is a good all-around player

He's a great defender, maybe the best at 2B, but he's only an average hitter.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 21, 2007 7:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

I should clarify that statement

He was an above average hitter in 2007 but I don't think the power surge he showed this year will last.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 21, 2007 7:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think there's no argument

that the A's need an upgrade in CF, both with the glove and with the bat. I also agree that Lofton would be a stopgap.

I also think the A's really need a legitimate #3 starter (unless Harden finally manages to stay healthy for a season); at this point Gaudin is more comfortably a #4.

The free agent market this summer has more quality CF's than starters, although the A's haven't had much luck with free agent signings (except for their injury comeback bargains such as Thomas and Stewart).

Can the A's fill both needs this winter via trades? Or will they be attempting to fill at least one internally?

by OaklandSi on Oct 20, 2007 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

#3 SP

I don't see that guy coming from the FA market. The A's farm system is still struggling to produce enough talent to make a trade possible without threatening the future make-up of the Oakland roster. If Cordero leaves Milwaukee than there's a chance that Street could be moved for one of Bush or Capuano. I don't know if you consider either of those pitchers to be #3 quality. There are enough FA relief arms that I think you could replace Street's innings while Embree or Duke could handle closing.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 20, 2007 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

He's getting his right shoulder cut

He pitches with his left. I'm not sure how he jacked up his right side but he should be good to go by Opening Day.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 20, 2007 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

just saw the response

that clarified which shoulder -- reminder that Harden had surgery on the non-throwing shoulder -- but I don't think Capuano has had problems with his throwing shoulder, as has Harden -- anyway...other pitchers were also mentioned as perhaps being trade bait. I'm not familiar with any of the others, but if the Brewers are looking for middle relief, and if any of their starters looks good, that might make for a nice trade.

If Street is included in a trade package the A's might be able to get something better than what the Brewers might be offering.

by OaklandSi on Oct 20, 2007 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

ughhhh

no to bush and absolutely not to capuano.

bush has had "good peripherals" for a couple years now, but somehow despite these good peripherals has had mediocre-to-bad seasons.

capuano is probably the kind of guy we trade for, but he was god awful the last season and a half, if my memory serves me correctly. i would rather not bring him into the mix.

"He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Oct 20, 2007 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Your memory does serve you correctly ...

He's posted a 5.13 era since the break in '06.

"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 20, 2007 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

i stand...
...correct? thanks devo
"He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Oct 20, 2007 11:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

well done ....
"It's for your own good. Big strong Devo knows whats best for Poppy" -- Mossback

by devo on Oct 21, 2007 3:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

OK
Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 20, 2007 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree it's hard to trade for a #3,

and you overpay to sign one on the FA market. There are "hidden gem" talents out there but they are, of course, high risk (Scott Olsen has #3 stuff, for example). That's why moving Duke to the rotation is an interesting possibility - you can unearth a solid reliever easier than you can a #3 starter. The A's acquired Andrew Brown, Chad Gaudin, and Duke himself rather easily, and there's always a LaTroy Hawkins or a Bobby Howry who is just "ungreat" enough that many overlook the fact that they are, in fact, very good.

In other words, surprisingly good middle relievers are relatively easy to acquire if you are deft, as the A's are.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 21, 2007 8:45 AM PDT reply actions  

I haven't heard anything about the Marlins

shopping Olsen.

There is a lot of chatter about if Florida will be able to keep both Willis and Cabrera. If Willis goes I doubt they shop Olsen. If Willis stays...

And why do I have the vague notion that a Different Strokes referrence is coming?

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 21, 2007 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

"Whatcha talkin' about, Cabrera?"

The Marlins made it clear mid-season that if Olsen was convicted they didn't want him around. Even if he isn't, his performance was so poor in 2007 that I'll bet the combo of his legal troubles and his pitching would make him available for little this off-season - even if he shouldn't be. I think the Marlins just really don't like him, and some team could probably take advantage of this.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 21, 2007 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

I know all that

But I also know that Florida has 3 starting pitchers that are trying to come back from major injuries. If they ship Willis they'll have a hard time finding 5 healthy bodies to put in the starting rotation even if they keep Olsen.

Now if they ship Willis and get a big league ready SP in return that's another story.

What I'm saying is the Marlins will not ship Willis and then turn around and deal Olsen for a song. Florida will play hardball in any deal involving Willis. The A's might be able to slip in and grab Olsen at a bargain price IF they move quickly. But that's just a guess. For all I know Florida's #1 priority is to trade Willis before November rolls around.

Yep. Warm and fuzzy... that's me.

by grover on Oct 21, 2007 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

Howry is overlooked?

By whom? He was signed beginning 2006 for $12M/3, $4M left on his contract.

Hawkins? He's not as good as Howry. The last time he was in fact very good was in 2004. He was pretty mediocre in 2005 and 2006. Joe Kennedy mediocre. He's ERA is shiny this year, but his K / BB rates are not much different from 2005 and 2006.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 21, 2007 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

regarding RH power and

perhaps another CF possibility (though he might be better at the corners), I wonder what it would take to get Jason Bay?

Then again, it would be necessary to determine whether his 2007 decline was the result of injuries, rest of league figuring him out, or just plain Pittsburgh burnout. Marc Normandin thinks it unfortunately may be one of the former issues

by OaklandSi on Oct 21, 2007 3:35 PM PDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Oakland Athletics.

Community Guidelines ANcillary Terms

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
A's relocation option from a legal expert on the issue
Oakland_athletics_team_logo_photofile_small
Prospects 1Q Report

Recent FanPosts

Small
The Manny Mistake
Small
GOG 2012 #18: The Twins have a shiny new park, and not much else
Small
Gotta Be Their Pitching
Hardly-boys_small
Minor League notes on Major League Day Off
Small
Cespedes Upate?
Small
The SF Warriors, the LA Raiders and the Oakland A's
Photo__11__small
COG #17 - Yankees vs. Athletics or Spank me! Spank me!
100_1536_small
What to do? What to do?
Small
Fans Should Buy the A's
Reg3_small
Tom Milone's Nickname

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Yahoo_full_count

Front Page Writers

Maya_papi_small Tyler Bleszinski

08-_the_author_small 67MARQUEZ

Baseball_small baseballgirl

Poochini-butt_in_box_2_small Nico

Img_1877_small Billy Frijoles

Img_0653_small dwishinsky

Sb_nation1_small ahhall

Front Page Writers

Smiley_face_small gigglingone

Venasfans_small OaklandSi

60-minutes-clock_small cuppingmaster

Patpicturebucky2_small YonYonson

Img_3830_small David Fung

Moderators

Photofunia-5c770b_small coffee roaster

Denver_small Colorado Fan

Ls_logo100_small LoneStranger

Thumbs_up_small LongTimeFan

Marty_profile_in_green_small mrod

Babycomputergeek_small paris7

Img_0115_small Tutu-late