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The Most Ridiculous Argument in Baseball

Allow me to vent for a minute.

What's that?

You want me to discuss Zito?

Okay, fine. He looked smokin' at the Giants press conference. And that's all I have to say about that.

Anyway, I would like to point out the ridiculousness of a common sports argument; one that you would think people, over time, would gradually realize is fallacious, But no, they don't. They just keep perpetuating the myth until it takes on a life of its own, and is accepted as common fact. Players who ride the coattails of others' success are heralded as heroes, for simply being at the right place at the right time--or in this case, on the right team at the right time.

Last week, Chris Girandola forced us to created a stronger definition for 'No sir, you couldn't possibly be more wrong' with his lovely column about Scott Brosius being a Hall of Fame candidate. Yes, that Scott Brosius. You may remember him by his career numbers: OBP.323 SLG .422 AVG .257. Nope, not misprints. Those are his real numbers. I certainly hope he has enough intangibly goodness to overcome those, and be considered a legitimate candidate for the Hall. Let's see. Chris? What do you think?

Considering that since his retirement, the Yankees have reached the World Series only once, losing in six games to the Florida Marlins in 2003, it would seem logical that a strong case could be made for Brosius to fill one of the seats in the Hall of Fame.

And there you have it, folks. Brosius should be in the HOF because...<drum roll>...the Yankees haven't won since he left. Does anyone else appreciate the inherent stupidity of this argument as it relates to the sport of baseball? Yet it's used all the time. Case in point: Ask any Yankees' fan about Bernie Williams, and they will tell you that he is obviously much better than [insert any other non-Jeter player here] because he has more rings. It's a dishonest argument, one that doesn't even hold up to even the most cursory scrutiny.

Humor me. Let's pretend for a moment that Tiger Woods has retired. If this is true, I will grant you the logic of the argument that Team Tiger Woods won't win another tournament without him. I'm even willing to stretch that principle to basketball, and in some cases, even football. One player can indeed make such a difference, in that the loss of him affects an entire team's performance. But not in baseball. I cannot stress this enough. There have been MVP players on losing teams since the invention of the game--who, by themselves--are simply unable to force their teams to win baseball games. That doesn't make them any less of a quality player; it simply makes their team not good enough to win. And on the flip side, there are many, many players who are simply not great at the sport of baseball, who happen to be on a team that, as a whole, is. They will receive a ring, just like everyone else on the team, and maybe, if they are lucky enough to be covered by a writer like Chris, will be cemented in the baseball archives as being a better player than a more-talented-yet-ringless player on another team.

Shoddy journalism, that.

Yet, I'm sure he's not alone. I'm sure somewhere, someone is thinking, "Gee, if the Yankees only had Brosius playing third instead of A-rod, they would have won the World Series at least once in the last three years", which is an argument so ridiculous, I really can't even summon up much of a defense.  And still, the 'rings' argument has been entered as a viable defense for Hall of Fame candidacy.

Heaven help us all.

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Well maybe but...
you also have to consider that the A's haven't been to the World Series since Brosius left them. With one team, it could be a coincidence, but two?!?!

hahaha

by matthias on Jan 6, 2007 9:43 PM PST reply actions  

New York Sports Writers
Have to say crazy things to get noticed, this one is inherently wrong.  Scott Brosius has as much business being in the Baseball HOF as he does being in the Negro League HOF. (Yes I stole that from FJM, but then again, this is similar to a recent post they had a few days ago)

I think anyone who votes for Brosius should immediately be stripped of his HOF vote, but then again i think that about anyone who votes for Jim Rice or doesn't vote for Jack Morris should be stripped of theirs too

Goliath, dissatisfied with his size advantage, decided to buy David's sling, which took steroids.

by TexasAsfan on Jan 6, 2007 9:45 PM PST reply actions  

Good observation
This phenomenon, by the way, is much more common in football, when sportswriters assume that when a team wins a championship, that means that every player on that team must be a hall of famer. Entire TEAMS get elected to the hall of fame because of championships. Go ahead, take a look at Terry Bradshaw's lifetime statistics ... according to the numbers, he just wasn't very good.

In baseball, this happens far less. Even the best teams, and the Yankees of that recent era are certainly one of the best ever, only have a few representatives in the Hall.

From those teams, I'd say: Jeter, Rivera, Clemens,  MAYBE Bernie Williams and Andy Pettite in 30 years when New York writers get sentimental about them. That's it. I like Scott Brosius as much as anyone else, but if you're going that route, I think Paul O'Neill and even Tino Martinez are FAR better choices, if you're going to choose anyone.

A team in baseball is the sum of its parts, but each part doesn't need to be a HOF for that team to be great. This should seem obvious, but to many sportswriters, it's not. Remember, they're idiots, after all.

by Crosbino on Jan 6, 2007 10:12 PM PST reply actions  

nash
i don't really like the guy, but he's been MVP twice, and that alone puts him in very elite company.
his numbers are even better this year.  his scoring (good for a point guard) is never that high, but he leads the league in assists every year now and look at where his fg and 3pt %s put him among guards.  
if he keeps it up, he'll be top 3 in MVP voting yet again.  and his teams always do well (currently .750).

according to that HoF monitor, he's got more points than kidd and stockton even if you take away one of his MVPs.

also, other than in baseball, most sports pretty much let everyone into the hall of fame, the standards aren't that high (the top 15 on that list are all locks).

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 6, 2007 10:52 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't really care for basketball
in general, and I don't have any specific beef with Steve Nash (except his hair).  I'm just sayin' is all.
Stat Wonk Futurist

by salb918 on Jan 6, 2007 10:56 PM PST up reply actions  

sal = the joe morgan of basketball
yeah, <foul> basketball <time out>  <free throws> sucks <time out>.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 6, 2007 11:02 PM PST up reply actions  

No, it's football that moves too slowly.
But basketball, like football, has too many rules for my taste.
Stat Wonk Futurist

by salb918 on Jan 6, 2007 11:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Hockey is the worst of all... July and August
...are the only two months that professional hockey is not being played (counting exhibition.)

All playoff systems are flawed in professional sports, especially MLB's.   NBA playoffs are a huge yawn for me.  I might watch a few minutes of a game or two of the finals, but that is about it.

The NFL has the more favorable setup, in that it is only a sixteen game season.  You cannot beat up one team, like the Athletics did to Seattle, and make the playoffs.  

Hockey season's too long, basketball's too long.
Baseball's been long, but the players don't run as much as basketball.  

Baseball ought to have a round-robin tournament, four losses and you're out.  You play the other three playoff teams at least once.  That would be much better.
Plus, have the tournament in Las Vegas (build a four-field complex, with hotel rooms for the players on site.)  No travel days, maybe some doubleheaders...... none of this "Three good starters and you can do it."  No home field quirks (TwinkyDome, lousy Bah-ston Green monstah).  Just pure player performance.

Rename Fremont to Philadelphia, and all's well.

by One won lost won on Jan 7, 2007 4:17 PM PST up reply actions  

list
older guys: i'd put reggie miller and mourning in as well.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 6, 2007 10:59 PM PST up reply actions  

If you're talking likability...
...Steve Nash should be in the Hall right now.

The guy is relentless with his charity work and youth coaching. Compare him to, say, any other NBA star in the world, and he's like Gandhi.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Jan 7, 2007 10:01 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't know what problem
you guys have with Scott Brosius.  I have no problem with him being in the hall of fame.  How much does a ticket cost these days anyway?
"You may glory in a team triumphant, but you fall in love with a team in defeat."--The Boys of Summer

by alox on Jan 6, 2007 10:34 PM PST reply actions  

I'm not sure why you all can't see the logic
For instance, since I was fired from, er, quit my job as a stock boy at K-Mart, the stocks have fallen, the company has declared bankruptcy, etc.  Obviously, then, I should be CEO.

by Ray of Lite on Jan 6, 2007 10:42 PM PST reply actions  

I was at Brosius' first MLB game
Long double and a homer, and the scoreboard had to scramble and prepare the "Ferocious Brosius" marquee in a hurry.  Good times!  Of course he belongs in the Hall!

I also have a baseball signed by Eric Fox -- he should go in the Hall too!!

Huh. I always thought that baseball's version of a home run is the motherf---ing home run itself. -FJM

by oblique on Jan 6, 2007 10:54 PM PST reply actions  

Hall of Fame in Other Sports
The difference between the Hall of Fame in other sports and the Baseball Hall of Fame is that the others induct great players, while baseball only permits in the very greatest players.  

Ty Cobb never won a World Series, does that mean he should not be a Hall of Famer?  Brosius, was not great, let alone exceptional among the best in the game.

by Archaeologist on Jan 6, 2007 11:04 PM PST reply actions  

If Cobb had been a Yankee...
...dumbass east coast sportwriters would worship him like Ruth.

But because he wasn't, all they usually talk about is how mean he was "and yet still made it in."

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Jan 7, 2007 10:03 AM PST up reply actions  

Similar to Arguments against A-Rod
The argument for Brosius being inducted into the hall is just like the argument for A-Rod being bad. New Yorkers say A-Rod hasn't "won them" a world series yet, so he's not valuable at all.

I'm sure you could find other guys who were on the Yankees for a few rings and left after they had won in 2000.

Teenager? Like technology? m1nor.com

by scutaro is CLUTCH on Jan 6, 2007 11:32 PM PST reply actions  

Brosius and A-Rod are alike
The Yankees won three rings with Brosius on the team, and they would have won those three rings without him.

The Yankees have won no rings with A-Rod, and they would have won those no rings without him.

:)

P.S.  Brosius was the World Series MVP in 1998.  I'll bet anyone here a truck full of money that A-Rod will never be the World Series MVP.  Because the World Series MVP award has never been given to a player whose team was not in the World Series.

MJB

by MJB on Jan 7, 2007 12:12 AM PST up reply actions  

Sterling Hitchock and Graeme Lloyd for the Hall!
"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Jan 7, 2007 10:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Ok, read the article, folks.
Nowhere in the article does Girandola come out and say Brosius should be in the hall of fame. This is the closest he gets:

"It is his clutch hitting in the postseason, as well as his solid and, often times, spectacular defensive play, which may give members of the Baseball Writers' Association of America enough impetus to consider him for Hall of Fame induction in 2007."

Emphasis mine. If you go here, you can see several more articles on the same page including "Skill, scrutiny marked Canseco career", "Solid Witt pitched with guts, savvy", and "Saberhagen 'fortunate' to have played". Jose Canseco, Bobby Witt and Bret Saberhagen have two things in common with Scott Brosius, all four have just this year become eligible for induction into the Hall of Fame, and all four have absolutely no chance whatsoever of getting in.

These are not columns in support of each player's HoF credentials, they're simple puff pieces on mlb.com's HoF site detailing each and every player newly eligible, whether there's any chance of induction or not. Leave the poor New Yorker alone.

by Nate on Jan 6, 2007 11:42 PM PST reply actions  

I don't know [to be read slowly and skeptically]
Nowhere in the article does Girandola come out and say Brosius should be in the hall of fame. This is the closest he gets:...

It seems that the last paragraph -- the one the BBG -- put in the fancy quotation box is actually the closest he gets, without actually writing that it's his opinion.  Although in my opinion he is clearly inferring that it's his view that there's a case to be made for Brosius.  

4 8 15 16 23 42

by LowcountryJoe on Jan 7, 2007 9:06 AM PST up reply actions  

As someone who has written many puff pieces...
...here's how you start one about Brosius being on the HoF list:
While he has virtually no chance of being elected, Scott Brosius would probably say the following in justifying his selection on the HoF nominees list...

Anything more than that boggles the mind.

"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Jan 7, 2007 10:07 AM PST up reply actions  

What's your problem BBG?
I mean, using the criteria of WS rings obviously confirms what we all know, that Allan Lewis was a far better player than Barry Bonds. LOL

by galraen @ Athletics Nation on Jan 7, 2007 6:16 AM PST reply actions  

Allan Lewis
"The Panamanian Express" hall of fame nickname.

by Salvatore on Jan 7, 2007 8:03 AM PST up reply actions  

Also an HOF sportswriter quote
Don't remember from whom, but after Finley's "designated pinch runner" was twice picked off first base, a sportswriter offered that "the Panamaniam Express is apparently a local, with regular stops between first and second base."
"Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?" --Johnny Rotten

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jan 7, 2007 12:00 PM PST up reply actions  

interesting
Very interesting concept. The only other former Atheltic that has won a world championship in recent years is Mark Mulder i believe. Even though he was injured last year.

by Mulderfan on Jan 7, 2007 6:40 AM PST reply actions  

foulke, damon
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 7, 2007 10:26 AM PST up reply actions  

Giamb--
oh, nevermind.
Stat Wonk Futurist

by salb918 on Jan 7, 2007 10:36 AM PST up reply actions  

not on topic, but check out Durazo
This was the best place I could find to interject this data on Erubiel's recent performance (from mlb.com):

Mexican Pacific League

Erubiel Durazo, 1B/DH -- Durazo went 7-for-21 with a homer and five RBIs in the final week of the regular season. The 31-year-old hit .344 on the season with 18 home runs and 56 RBIs in 227 at-bats for Naranjeros de Hermosillo.

Note the 18 HR and 56 RBI in 227 at bats! Of course, this is Mexican League pitchers vs MLB...

by eriklovestheathletics on Jan 7, 2007 9:03 AM PST reply actions  

SHAME ON YOU BBG!!!
How dare you waste time and energy and space with a response to such a ridiculous assertion.  The fact that his name is on the list AT ALL is comedy.
Brosius batted 9th for the Yanks and won the MVP of the World Series because he was the only person worth facing as an opposing pitcher.

Please don't give this any more time...he's not only not a HOFer, but he probably shouldn't be allowed to go the induction ceremony for ANYONE!

"Straight outta Oakland, California where we sparkin on ya" - 2Pac

by Erik being Erik on Jan 7, 2007 9:32 AM PST reply actions  

Dear Chris Girandola:
I think you're a genius!! There is no way Brosius shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame.  I love your reasoning as well...
Let's see the credentials, THAT MATTER... Brosius won world series rings and was named MVP in one of those...what else do you need.
Obviously, the Yanks haven't won since he left, so that shows his worth.  I couldn't agree more..
You win MVP your team doesn't win anymore after you leave...AUTOMATIC HALL OF FAME...why wait 5 years?
I couldn't agree more with your reasoning and it should apply to other players as well,
                        Sincerely,
                            Dave Stewart
"Straight outta Oakland, California where we sparkin on ya" - 2Pac

by Erik being Erik on Jan 7, 2007 9:35 AM PST reply actions  

My telephone should be
in the hall of fame, because it has 7-8 different rings. At least it would if anyone ever called me.

Scott Brosius shouldn't even be on the Hall of Fame ballot. He was an average to mediocre player who batted over .262 exactly three times, topped 20 HRs exactly once, and slugged over .500 exactly once. His induction would open the door for David Bell, Brandon Inge, and Casey Blake, and this would not be a good thing. Any sportswriter who casts a "yes" vote for Brosius should be disqualified from all future HOF voting.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 7, 2007 9:37 AM PST reply actions  

Calls Nico...
...fat.
"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Jan 7, 2007 10:09 AM PST up reply actions  

Hears it as...
...phat.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 7, 2007 10:53 AM PST up reply actions  

Realizes the truth and then goes...
..splat.
"Kotsay is 31... Kotsay's back is 127." - Jeepers

by Ozzz on Jan 7, 2007 12:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Don't forget the 5'7'' 'clutch one' ;)
Ho hum. Just another day for the OAKLAND ATHLETICS OF AWESOME! ~Kyli

by baseballgirl on Jan 7, 2007 11:04 AM PST up reply actions  

Same topic
http://www.firejoemorgan.com/

January 2nd and 4th

I would argue that having the nickname "Bro" warrants consderation for some sort of enshrinement.

by bloodsweatndonuts on Jan 7, 2007 2:50 PM PST reply actions  

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