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Is 2007 an evaluation year?

     It's been a strange offseason for the Oakland A's, and the growing restlessness among the faithful at AN is obvious.  What is Billy thinking?  How can we compete in 2007 when we lost Thomas, Zito, and Payton and replaced them with Piazza, (insert favorite in-house candidate for 5th starter), and an injured and inexperienced Ryan Goleski?  Has Billy lost his touch?  Does Billy care more about his role as corporate darling than fielding a winning baseball team?  At some point this winter, most of us have probably raised these questions to ourselves.  After getting tired of arguing with the voices in my head as to what I believe, I have decided to present my current theory and let the wise folks at AN attack it.  

    My theory of 2007 is this: the question marks surrounding the team in 2007 are simultaneously the major cause of concern for the folks at AN and the justification for Billy's offseason.  I have a feeling that Billy views 2007 as an evaluation year: a year to find out what we have in an effort to deal with the large shadow that the Angels will cast upon the AL West over the next 4-5 years.

    Prior to the 2005 season, Billy was fond of saying that the A's were a young team that was going to get better and better as the years went by.  Of course, GMs and owners always say shit like that; Allard Baird, Cam Bonifay, etc. have made careers out of promising future growth in the midst of dwindling talent.  In Billy's case, though, his 2005 optimism was based on reasonable assumptions.  Rich Harden was a rising superstar who had not begun his Mark Prior impersonation.  Chavez was a super talented player who was entering his prime and appeared ready to join the superstar class.  Dan Meyer was one of the best left-handed pitching prospects in baseball, and Dan Haren was a good young pitcher who had just pitched really well in the postseason at a young age.  Our up the middle defense/offense was very strong, led by a healthy Kotsay, a budding star in Crosby, and newly healed Ellis to go along with a catcher coming off a .395 OBP in 2004.  At that time, our minor league system was still considered solid, and the sky appeared to be the limit for the future.

    Fast forward to this offseason, and many of these reasonably based optimisms have not turned out to be true.  Harden is a huge question mark because of his health, Crosby is a question mark in a medical sense and a baseball intelligence sense, Ellis has been brilliant defensively but erratic on offense, Chavez has been hurt and has now declined offensively for three straight years, Meyer has become a sad reminder of why stat guys say TINSTAAPP, Kotsay appears to be in an irreversible decline because of chronic back problems, and Kendall had a horrific 2005 followed by a mediocre 2006.  To add insult to injury, our minor league system is now considered weak by every major prospect expert.

    Of course, despite these crushing blows, good things have happened.  We were competitive in 2005 despite Ratto's "expert" predictions.  Haren, Street, Swisher, and Duke have surprised.  In 2006, we leveraged a year of Thomas, solid pitching, and a bit of luck into an ALCS appearance.

    Faced with the question marks created by the failure of reasonably optimistic assumptions about players to materialize, what does Billy do in 2007?  Does he give up a 2007 season and rebuild for 2008?  Billy has never been willing to tank a season, and it was not reasonable to expect that he would do so in this offseason.  However, Billy is willing to risk a season to find out what he has, 2005 showed that Billy is willing to "reload with risk."  I think this is what Billy is doing in 2007.  Billy is willing to risk the A's 2007 season in an effort to see what he is going to get in the future from Crosby, Chavez, Gaudin, Kennedy, Ellis, Johnson, and Harden.

    Is this a smart strategy by Beane?  For 2007, it is a risky option.  We are basing a lot of our season on players that are large question marks for 2007.   However, it seems to me that the A's may benefit in the future from this strategy.  The one nice thing about this offseason is that we have not taken any steps that limit our future options.  We have signed no players to long-term contracts, and we have not traded anyone who was a part of our future.  If the disappointing players continue to disappoint in 2007, I believe we will see a housecleaning prior to 2008.  For this year, I think it's a reasonable decision on Beane's part to buy time while assessing what we have.  The weakness of the AL West still gives the A's a fighting chance to compete in 2007.  It's not what I wanted going into the offseason, but I can accept this strategy if no major moves are made prior to Spring Training.

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good stuff
recommended.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 24, 2007 5:53 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What happened to your poet friend?
His diaries are gone. He get bozo'd?
This guy is dead! We'll list him as day-to-day for possible reincarnation.
A's Medical Staff, 2006

by grover on Jan 24, 2007 6:57 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We will all miss his wit and prose
"[Frank's] a big battler. He's the mother of battleships."

-Nick Swisher

by kaweahkaweah on Jan 24, 2007 7:03 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no idea
i certainly didn't turn him in.  
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 24, 2007 8:06 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That is exactly how I feel...
And am very cautiously optimistic about next season.

Although I am expecting big things from Harden, Crosby and Chavez next season... Not so much from DJ, and Kielty... So I hope they surprise me.

by SD Erik on Jan 24, 2007 6:37 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sums up my thoughts quite nicely
Recommendation coming.

Although, assuming a Worst Case Scenario, the housecleaning could start in July 07. It would take amazing seasons to boost Kennedy and Bradley into Type A FA status (and if we have amazing seasons from those two we probably aren't in a WCS) and since the Type B class have lost much of there value I would expect Beane to trade those two if it looked like the A's were in for a rebuild.

This guy is dead! We'll list him as day-to-day for possible reincarnation.
A's Medical Staff, 2006

by grover on Jan 24, 2007 6:50 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What do you think
about a very modest contract extension for the Gamer?  Do the benefits outweigh the injury/psycho risks?
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay.

by carp on Jan 24, 2007 7:01 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not sure modest exists in this market
A lot of people, myself included, think Bradley could have a breakout year in 2007. If he is in the midst of such a season "modest" will not be an option. And if the opportunity arises for the A's to have a realistic shot at making a modest offer then it means that Bradley will be having a typical, injury plagued year.

I don't believe in paying money to players I can't count on to play when I want them to.

This guy is dead! We'll list him as day-to-day for possible reincarnation.
A's Medical Staff, 2006

by grover on Jan 24, 2007 7:13 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I see your points...
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay.

by carp on Jan 25, 2007 7:29 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i say we try to lock him up
the gamer has skills that we aren't likely to get anywhere else.  i don't think he had too many attitude problems last year, besides macha having to bear hug him.  but he's considered slightly damaged goods so the skill set that he offers should come at a discounted price.  i'd like him to take over center for kotsay when he's gone.
"I'd like to reference a brilliant post from Left Coast Lumber today" - notsellingjeans

by methodrampage on Jan 25, 2007 7:04 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good points
July 2007 will probably be interesting either way.  Given the large number of question marks entering 2007, if we are in contention we are likely to need to fill some holes come July.
I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Jan 24, 2007 7:06 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, indeed
I made a similar point in another comment:
http://athleticsnation.com/comments/2007/1/24/103313/873/29#29

As we all get a little frustrated waiting for the next genius Beane move, I am kind of hoping he waits for the deadline. For one thing, we have little of value to trade right now that we aren't already counting on if we are good. But even if Beane was able to whip up a classic and get 2 or 3 guys that we are all thrilled about, it would probably be at the expense of the farm and then the axis of injury (Harden/Crosby/Ellis/Bradley/Kennedy/Kotsay) could all go down at once and we would have traded some good future pieces for nothing but a failure in the present.

If Beane waits until the deadline to decide, the picture will be clearer. We could either be in a position to fill a desperate need on a contender, or we could be in a position to get a heck of a lot more for a guy like Blanton than a 21 year old outfielder with a bad attitude that will probably demand a trade when someone tells him he can't steal bases. Heck, as desperate as it looks like the Mets will be for pitching by then, we probably could have gotten a gem prospect from them for Saarloos if we had waited. (No offense, David Shafer)

by broaklyn on Jan 25, 2007 5:53 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Axis Of Injury....
Thats good man, well played....
"I Will Not Relent, I Am Driven"... Clutch
Bring Back The Bash!!!

by Shippee33 on Jan 25, 2007 7:01 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In a related thought...
Much will depend on how the A's minoe league system rebounds from an injury plagued 2006. To get an idea about who the A's have in the pipeline, head over to minorleagueball and buy John's new book.

http://www.minorleagueball.com/

This guy is dead! We'll list him as day-to-day for possible reincarnation.
A's Medical Staff, 2006

by grover on Jan 24, 2007 6:56 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes
I had planned (but forgot) to address the minor leagues more in my diary, because it contains a lot of question marks as well.  2007 is a big year for the A's organization as a whole.
I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Jan 24, 2007 7:09 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Trades
If Beane can pull off the oft rumored Mets trade and come away with Milledge and Pilfrey or Humber, (and I do think there will be a trade because the Mets desperately need pitching...it's just a matter of which team caves in first) then the A's will compete this year.  If Beane stays pat we'll be back to circa 2005.

by Threepwood XX on Jan 24, 2007 7:11 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

nice diary, but:
i'm not getting the apparent doom and gloom for '07 that seems to be creeping to the AN collective psyche. i happen to believe the '07 team will out perform the '06 a's team because the '06 team was somewhat disappointing and never really played to their potential....even at 95 wins. the '06 team was really a 100-102 win team. but the SP staff never really had an ace, the RP were over used by a manager who really didn't understand how to manage a bullpen, street was average and many offensive players, due to injury or bad yrs, had poor performances.

i think with a healthy chavez, a healthy harden, a healthy crosby, bradley going into a contract year, haren and street one year more experienced, a better balanced bullpen and a team playing for a new manager, this '07 team is a 100 win team... EASY. This team will win the west next yr....comfortably.

as for trying to understand "what billy is thinking?"-don't. my guess is you'ii never figure it out. you see, the greatest trick billy ever pulled was convincing the baseball world he didn't know what the hell he was doing. And like that...poof, he pulls a fuckin' a trade. :-)

   

"Where you start is not as important as where you finish."- Zig Ziglar

by bigelephant on Jan 24, 2007 7:13 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Unfortunately BigE
No one has seen a healthy Chavez or Crosby or Harden for over two years. Bradley's only managed it once in his entire career.

Larry Davis is still the trainer and I believe Hannibal Lector is the team doctor.

This guy is dead! We'll list him as day-to-day for possible reincarnation.
A's Medical Staff, 2006

by grover on Jan 24, 2007 7:16 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

oh, yea of little faith!
don't worry grov, they've all been doing yoga.
"Where you start is not as important as where you finish."- Zig Ziglar

by bigelephant on Jan 24, 2007 7:54 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

<sigh>
I was more hopeful when I was a ray of fucking sunshine.
This guy is dead! We'll list him as day-to-day for possible reincarnation.
A's Medical Staff, 2006

by grover on Jan 24, 2007 8:06 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

should make AN Quote of the Month
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay.

by carp on Jan 25, 2007 7:29 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

QOTM?
Only if bbg allows PG-13 language.
This guy is dead! We'll list him as day-to-day for possible reincarnation.
A's Medical Staff, 2006

by grover on Jan 25, 2007 4:43 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don't steal our fun
It's impossible to ever really know what Billy is thinking, but that is one of the great joys of being a fan of the Billy Beane A's.  It's nice to be a fan of a team with a plan, even when we can't figure it out.

As to your optimism for 2007, the large amount of qualifiers in your 100 win prediction is exactly what we're talking about.  I would love to assume that all of those good things will come true, but they didn't come true last year, and there's no way to know whether they will this year.

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Jan 24, 2007 7:22 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well, exactly my friend
overall team health is a huge wildcard. and believe me, i'm no kool-aid drinker. i just think the potential parts are present for a very good year. a championship year in fact. and sure, the health of kotsay, harden, crosby, ellis, street and chavez is key. but even with a flawed '06 team they still won 95 gms! plus, let's not forget the a's will have a new manager with hopefully a new approach to how the game is played.    
"Where you start is not as important as where you finish."- Zig Ziglar

by bigelephant on Jan 24, 2007 7:53 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agree
I thought we could be the best team in baseball going into 2006 if things went right.  They didn't, and we still made the playoffs. Of course, in 2006 we had Zito and Thomas.  I think a 95 win season is entirely possible, but sadly, an 83 win season is entirely possible as well.  A lot of players have to stand and deliver this year.
I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Jan 24, 2007 8:04 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

we have a good shot to win the AL west next year
it wouldn't even require all those players to be healthy or anywhere near 100 wins.

if i had to do an oaktoon-like pulling of numbers out of some orifice, i'd say:
angels 50%
a's 40%
rangers 10%

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 24, 2007 8:10 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

sounds about right
I think it's closer to:

Angels 50%
A's 45%
Texas 5%

But I'm just orifice pickin' as well.

I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Jan 24, 2007 8:16 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'd say
Angels: 55%
A's: 35%
Rangers: 10%
Mariners: 0% (accurate to 0.0%)

by mikeA on Jan 24, 2007 8:22 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

35% is too low
DJ is gonna hit like 40 jacks dude.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 24, 2007 8:34 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he's got something to prove
after being blamed for the fremont move
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 24, 2007 8:42 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LOL
Huh. I always thought that baseball's version of a home run is the motherf---ing home run itself. -FJM

by oblique on Jan 24, 2007 9:40 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

whoa, that's how i originally had it
but for some obviously not very scientific reason, i decided to give the rangers another 5% at the last minute.  

and really that makes it 47% to 53% because we all know the rangers will tank in the summer and finish with 82 wins, as they do every year.

really shouldn't we be satisfied with a 47% chance of winning the division?  add our 6-10% chance of being the wild card, and i'm quite satisfied with our current team.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 24, 2007 8:23 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Texas is revitalized
Remember they have Ron Washington as manager and they have management that will spend some money.  Unlike the Seattle gang Texas is looking to be competitive this season...
Charlie Brown GO A'S WIN

by Charlie Brown on Jan 25, 2007 3:58 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and...
and they have sammy sosa....imagine what his corked bat can do in that ballpark
Baseball is like life. It's a day-to-day existence, full of ups and downs. You make the most of your opportunities in baseball as you do in life. - E Harwell

by peoples27 on Jan 28, 2007 7:25 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would revise those rankings
to the following:
   Angels   40%
   A's      32%
   Rangers  26%
   Mariners  2%

Point is that the Rangers are revitalized with Ron Washington and management willing to spend some money to get him the team he wants.  

Charlie Brown GO A'S WIN

by Charlie Brown on Jan 25, 2007 4:03 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

mine
Angels 55%
A's 30%
Mariners 10%
Rangers 5%

...I think the Mariners have a better chance than the Rangers of finishing last also; they just have some talent that, if all goes well, could materialize into something of a contender, despite Bavasi's well-earned recent ranking as the worst GM in baseball.  With Ichiro in a contract year, Beltre perhaps showing signs of life in the second half last year, Ibanez, Sexson, a healthy Vidro (bigger if than a healthy Crosby), Jojihma, decent middle IF, and Jose fucking Guillen (potentially the best player on the team), they're likely the best lineup in the division.  What they lack in OBP they make up for in SLG.  Still, no easy outs there, unless Hargrove gives Bloomquist 400 AB's again, which would be nice.  I predict Felix competes with Harden for the Cy this year, the bullpen is solid...if they get any pitching from 2-5, they could win 90 games.  More likely that they lose a lot of 8-6 games and finish 75-87.

OTOH, Texas is like guaranteed to finish within 5 games of .500...

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 25, 2007 4:26 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

so, how 'bout some last place %'s
Mariners 45%
Rangers 28%
A's 17%
Angels 5%
"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 25, 2007 4:35 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

random sportsbook AL West odds
Angels 5:7 (not very mathematically friendly)
A's 2:1
Rangers 5:1
Mariners 12:1

Most people here would probably like those 2:1 odds for the A's...I almost do.  M's at 12:1 almost appeals to me.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 25, 2007 4:41 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

translated into percentages:
Angels 5:7 = 41.67%
A's 2:1 = 33.33%
Rangers 5:1 = 16.67%
Mariners 12:1 = 7.69%

No, I am not betting on the Angels, despite what the numbers would suggest, heh

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 25, 2007 4:50 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

my bad...
Angels' % as indicated by those odds is actually 58.33%...I divided 5 by 12 rather than 7 by 12.

So yeah, now I'm definitely not betting on them.  And I was kind of wondering why the sportsbook was being so generous...with my previous percentages, the numbers added up to a bit under 100%, which would mean no juice, and in fact a little overlay for the bettors.  Now the sum of the percentages is about 116.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 25, 2007 4:56 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Angels' computational error
I warned you as soon as I saw those ugly 5:7 odds that they weren't very mathematically friendly, did I not?  Heh.
"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 25, 2007 5:09 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

last step
now that the odds have been converted to percentages, let's convert them to percentages that add up to 100%:

Angels: 50.28% (I guess the real bet here is Angels or the field...)
A's: 28.73%
Rangers: 14.37%
Mariners: 6.62%

heh, despite rounding to the hundredth place, that adds up to exactly 100%.

So that's what the sportsbook I consulted is "predicting" (more accurately, what the bettors on that sportsbook are predicting with their bets) for the AL West.  These are the useful figures for comparisons with our predictions; if you're going to bet, obviously, the previous ones are the useful ones.  The juice makes all the difference for whether of not I would bet on the A's...given any credibility for my 30% projection, I would bet on them without the juice, seeing as I'd have a SLIGHT advantage over the house's projected 28.73% chance.  But with the juice, the 33.33% chance gives me, in betting parlance, a -EV (negative expected value), of 9% to be exact.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 25, 2007 5:07 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

other divisions' odds
AL East:

Yankees 4:9
Red Sox 2:1
Blue Jays 6:1
Orioles 100:1 (lol)
Devil Rays 100:1 (lol...c'mon, 80:1 for the D-Rays)

Seeing as the Yankees' odds are predictably skewed, I think betting a good amount of money on the Red Sox AND Blue Jays here would be really smart.  Two ways to do this.  First, say you put a grand down on both, two grand bet total.  If the Red Sox win the division, you win two grand...you get your money back.  If the Blue Jays win, you get six grand...a 3:1 payout.  

But if you're like me and think Boston's 2:1 odds are what you really want to cash in on (anyone want to argue with me that they're the best team in the league?), then bet six times as much on the Red Sox as you would on the Blue Jays.  For example, 1800 on the Sox and 300 on the Jays.  If the Jays' well-balanced squad overcomes the Evil Empires and prevails, you get 1800, your money back.  If the Sox win, as you would expect, you double up to 3600.  Note to self: remember this.

AL Central:

Before I even click on this division...if ANY of the 4 contenders here have odds significantly below the other teams, that's the bet.

White Sox 9:5
Tigers 9:5
Twins 3:1
Indians 4:1
Royals 75:1 (I think they forgot a zero or two)

Give me a small bet on the Tribe, please.  With each passing day I'm getting more and more convinced that they're the best team here...but say for argument's sake that all 4 teams are even bets to win the division, then they should all be 4:1.  So there's no real value in betting much on the Tribe.  Thank the juice for that.

NL East:  

Mets 2:5
Phillies 4:1 (I guess people are buying into Jimmy Rollins' recent prediction that they'd win the division...I certainly don't.  This 4:1 bet is way worse than the Tribe's.)
Marlins 6:1
Braves 8:1 (um...$$$$$$$)
Nats 50:1

I'd wait on this one.  If the Mets don't add an SP by the beginning of the season, Braves are a good bet at those odds.  Besides, you'll have more reason to cheer for Hudson.

NL Central

Curious to see how the Cubs' flurry of deals has affected the betting lines...

Cardinals 7:5
Cubs 7:5 (oh boy)
Astros 7:1
Brewers 7:1
Reds 12:1
Pirates 35:1

wow.  If you held a gun to my head and forced me to throw money at some team in this division (and you'd have to do that to get me to bet in a 6-team division stacked with mediocre teams), I guess I'd take a flier on the Pirates paying off big, like I did for the NFL this year when I took the Cards at 25:1 odds to win the entire NFC (heh...looks dumb now, but if Leinart started earlier, they probably win the division, then who knows...they sure showed they could beat the Bears during the regular season).  Mind you, that was for $20.  Wouldn't even waste that on the NL Central...

NL West

Dodgers 7:5
Padres 5:2
Giants 3:1 (lol)
Diamondbacks 6:1 (should be odds for the Giants, too)
Rockies 12:1

Given the gun-to-the-head scenario for this division, I think I'd let you shoot me and hope for the best.

 

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 25, 2007 5:40 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

thanks for the odds
great read, and so much info it deserves its own diary.
"Choosing between Milledge and Gomez is like choosing between Mozart and Beethoven" --NY Mets Message Boards

by apilgrim on Jan 25, 2007 9:16 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

my pleasure
took too much pleasure in it, actually, seeing as I've been trying to curb my gambling impulses.  If I could limit it to poker and sports betting, I'd be fine, but...not the case.
"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 25, 2007 5:09 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

mullet once again breaks his own record
for most consecutive posts.  the cal ripken of AN.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 25, 2007 10:57 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

heh
in keeping with the (rather basic) mathematical inclination of those posts, I had one post for every 329 games played by Ripken (8 posts, 2,632 games played).  Not a bad ratio, but I can do better than that.
"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 25, 2007 5:13 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

is this correct?
"say for argument's sake that all 4 teams are even bets to win the division, then they should all be 4:1."
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 25, 2007 11:00 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

from the bettors' perspective, yeah
"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 25, 2007 5:06 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

with juice though...
they'd probably all be like 7:2, so the house could profit.
"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 25, 2007 5:14 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

confirmed
"I'd like to reference a brilliant post from Left Coast Lumber today" - notsellingjeans

by methodrampage on Jan 26, 2007 9:07 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

one error
In the second AL East betting strategy, the one I myself favor, you want to bet FIVE TIMES as much on the Red Sox as the Blue Jays rather than the 6x I said in the post (hey, I haven't bet on futures since last baseball season (when the only bets I made were over 85 wins for the Twins and under 75 or something for the Pirates...2-0), I'm a little rusty).  So, for clarity's sake, say 1500 for the Red Sox, 300 for the Jays, total of 1800 being bet.  If the Jays win, you cash in on their 6:1 odds and get your total amount bet (1800) back.  If the Sox win, as you're hoping, then you make 3000, which is a 5:3 payout.  The 5:3 return is obviously less than the 2:1 you would make by betting on the Red Sox alone, but it's still good, and it's worth guarding against the chance the Jays' take the AL East, the chances of which are better than the sportsbook would suggest.  Basically, if FT has a repeat 2006 season, they're ever so slightly worse than the Empires...there really is a decent chance the Yankees finish, gulp, third in the division this year.

If you have the funds and have no qualms about making bets (whether it be philosophical opposition or whatever other reason), I would strongly recommend betting heavily on this.  As things stand, I look to (finally) be making an income soon, with an Internet venture being launched next month that AN will be hearing about, but...it will take about a year to determine whether that's boom or bust.  In the meantime, I'm going to have to part with a Tiger Woods SI for Kids card that inexplicably (to me...it's a fucking cutout card...but it's considered his "rookie" card, and it's valuable, so I'm not complaining) is worth anywhere from $1,000 to $5,000+ depending on the condition of the card, which I need to have professionally graded.  So the moral of the story is that I'll probably just have a little bit to throw at this bet, but if I had more, I'd use it to essentially bet against the Yankees winning the AL East.        

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Jan 25, 2007 5:40 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dan Johnson will indeed
hit 40 HRs next season, boosted by hitting 22 of them in 9th inning blasts off of Joel Pineiro.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 24, 2007 9:16 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You know
You'd kinda hope that after the other team has batted around twice in the inning the manager would pull his pitcher.
This guy is dead! We'll list him as day-to-day for possible reincarnation.
A's Medical Staff, 2006

by grover on Jan 24, 2007 9:23 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, I forgot to mention that
Dusty Baker will be their manager.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jan 24, 2007 9:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks for the clarification
This guy is dead! We'll list him as day-to-day for possible reincarnation.
A's Medical Staff, 2006

by grover on Jan 25, 2007 7:20 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

2007 as an evaluation year
I'm not really thinking about Wins and Losses at this point, I want to know what key players are going to do. I think this is a critical year for Crosby, Harden and to a lesser extent Chavez. These guys are cornerstones around which Beane builds his team and they have failed to produce as expected for two straight years. If they struggle again in 2007 Beane will likely have no choice but to try and find replacements for 2008 and beyond. At the very least he will need to adjust how he plans to build his roster, find new cornerstones if you will, and lower his expectations regarding those three players.
This guy is dead! We'll list him as day-to-day for possible reincarnation.
A's Medical Staff, 2006

by grover on Jan 25, 2007 5:32 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

true grover
i'ii agree if harden et al come up lame beane will need to re-evaluate his roster.
"Where you start is not as important as where you finish."- Zig Ziglar

by bigelephant on Jan 25, 2007 5:56 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree 2007 will be an evluation year...
the problem is if Harden/Crosby/Chavez again are injury plagued, which is the only reason they will not be part of the future, their trade value will have been reduced to zilch.  It's a damned-if-you/damned-if-you don't proposition.  If I were Beane I would quietly be shopping these three guys hard right now just to see what type of return I could get.  As an example, if the Mets offer you Humber/Maine/OF prospect for Harden you may need to pull the trigger.  If they only offer up Perez/Milledge, then you hold on to Harden.  Another injury-plagued year for Harden and you just as well keep him until his contract is up because you won;t be getting a good return on him.  

by Miggy on Jan 25, 2007 8:24 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

health evaluation
i think we're evaluating the health of this team as the success will hinge on some key guys staying healthy.  if they do i think we're looking pretty solid for taking the al west, if they don't it'll be a rough ride and maybe we can dump some guys at the trade deadline (i don't know what piazza's contact is like but he could be a decent bargaining chip), and if we're in between then its not looking too hot but billy will have to make some important decisions.
"I'd like to reference a brilliant post from Left Coast Lumber today" - notsellingjeans

by methodrampage on Jan 25, 2007 7:14 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Evaluating Health
Billy Beane and company BELIEVE they have the right people in the right places...

- Swisher and Chavez as the cornerstones.  Harden, Haren, and Street on the bump.  These guys are locked up for 3+ Years.

They BELIEVE they have the right prospects filling key positions over the next 2-3 years:  

- Buck (07-08), Barton (07-08), Suzuki(08), Herrera (09), Mellilo (08-09)

They BELIEVE in the young pitching prospects they drafted the past few seasons:

- Cahill, Lansford, Mazzaro, Italiano, Ray, Webb

I don't see things getting BAD all of a sudden.  I don't see things getting BAD gradually.  Some things never change.  Death, Taxes, and the A's in contention in the AL West.

by Colorado Fan on Jan 25, 2007 7:46 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

agreed, however
if any combination of two (i'd rather not imagine 3 or more because losing one would hurt enough) of the following going down for long period (or even several short periods)could cause things to BAD for this season in a hurry: harden, crosby, swisher, street, chavez, bradley.  and unfortunately most of these guys have moderate to serious health concerns.
i believe the overall future of the team looks fine but depending on the health of this team things could get pretty BAD pretty FAST for any given season as i don't see the depth on this team being a strong point.
"I'd like to reference a brilliant post from Left Coast Lumber today" - notsellingjeans

by methodrampage on Jan 25, 2007 8:52 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I understand the depth issue
But, If any team loses their Ace (Harden), or Gold Glove/30-100 Guy (Chavez), or Starting Shortstop (Crosby), or Young/Stud 1B/OF (Swish)... they will struggle, too.

Depth is a concern for all teams.  Isn't it?  If the Yankees lose Jeter or A-Rod, who's their replacement(s)?

It is, What it is.  

by Colorado Fan on Jan 25, 2007 10:11 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Of course
But Derek Jeter and A-Rod haven't been constantly injured over the last few years, while Crosby, Harden, and Chavez have been.  
I'd like to eat my lunch, but Billy just kicked me out of my office.

by BlameChannel53 on Jan 25, 2007 10:18 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OK
It just continues to sound like a broken record.  

If contending teams stay healthy this season, they'll contend.  If contending teams don't stay healthy, then they won't contend.

We are a contending team. We get injured more than other teams.  That's unfortunate.

The end.

by Colorado Fan on Jan 25, 2007 10:33 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Every Year is an Evaluation Year
The Billy Beane formula dicates that every year (or at least the first third of every year) is an evaluation period.

1st third of every season is figuring out what you have...2nd third is getting what you need...and the final 3rd is putting it altogether, hence our patented "second-half runs".

THat being said, I acknowledge that this year could be an especially active season in periods 2 and 3, especially if we are not in contention around those times.

I would hope that Beane finds ways right after the All Star Break to give guys like Buck, Melillo and Suzuki some substantive time on the major league club so that they will arrive in '08 with enough experience to make at least a league-average impact during their rookie seasons.

If Beane is able to do that, work in these rookies during a divisional race and get them seasoned for their full-season 2008 debuts, I would consider this "evaluation year" a success, no matter what our record ends up being or how we finish in the division.

by Taj Adib on Jan 25, 2007 9:08 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mid-season trades to restock the minors
I could buy into this.  You might be able to bring real value from contenders for guys like Piazza, Bradley, Calero, Kotsay, Blanton.

The problem with this strategy for this A's is that you never really give up on them no matter how bad they look early in the season, given their recent history.

by boilerdan on Jan 25, 2007 9:44 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

good points
I think 2007 is similar to 2005 in terms of my hope for the season.

Not a whole lot of expectations from this team.  2006 I expected the team to win, and they did, other than winning it all.

I wouldnt be that shocked if the team is mediocre/under achieving based on things discussed (Crosby, Harden etc) or if the team wins the division again based on the same things.

No expectations, hoping for the best.

"...we don't score six, seven runs. We score three, four runs and play defense and pitch" - Eric Chavez

by pickinmachine on Jan 25, 2007 9:56 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Expectations
AN is at the same temperature it was last season.  People had serious doubts about the health of Frank Thomas (for good reason).   Threads were made every other day about trading Zito before the season, or at the deadline...because "We aren't winning it all this season with what we have today."

Health was a huge question mark last season.  Not many people expected an ALCS appearance...and those who did were shot down as being "Way too Optimistic"... or with , "The Odds of the Big Hurt getting even 300 AB's is a longshot at best".

It's the duty of AN Members to shoot down overly optimistic projections (Oaktoon on a 8-Game Winning Streak), as well as overly pessimistic outlooks (Oaktoon on an 8-Game Losing Streak/Bender).

Basically:  The Sky is not falling, and we're not much worse off than we were this time last season.  In fact, our pitching projects to be better this season, than last season (4.21 ERA in 2006).

AL Pitching Projections:  

http://www.rotoauthority.com/2007/01/best_starting_r_1.html

by Colorado Fan on Jan 25, 2007 10:27 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

team era
LAA 4.03
OAK 4.06

if we actually match the angels, we're probably coasting to the playoffs.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Jan 25, 2007 11:05 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

RISP
RISP was a huge issue last season...
  • In 2006, Our Overall Team Batting Average was .260
  • In 2006, Our Overall Team Batting Average w/ RISP was .243
Can I expect any improvement in the area that involves Scoring More Runs?

Like Howard Jones said, "Things can only get better".  right?

by Colorado Fan on Jan 25, 2007 11:35 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

disagree
I dont think this team is as good going into '07 than '06.  

I had huge expectations for 2006 BEFORE the season started, and I have the Vegas bets to prove it.  

No I dont think the sky is falling, just saying that the "expectations" arent there for me personally.  

"...we don't score six, seven runs. We score three, four runs and play defense and pitch" - Eric Chavez

by pickinmachine on Jan 25, 2007 1:42 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My expectations
Are exactly the same:  I expect this team to compete for the AL West Title...then, who knows from there.

by Colorado Fan on Jan 25, 2007 2:26 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

expectations
i expect the team to preform much like it did last year.  
however, i do expect laaoa to be better than they were last year.  should there starting pitching keeping improving they will be very tough because can there defense really play that bad two years in a row.
with that said i expect a close race, as laaoa has some glaring holes that they haven't filled and i hope there prospects keep flopping like d-mac, napoli, kotchman and morales.
"I'd like to reference a brilliant post from Left Coast Lumber today" - notsellingjeans

by methodrampage on Jan 26, 2007 9:14 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Beane really has no other choice........
He's really made his bed and now he has to lie in it and hope for the best. He's bet a bunch on several players and hasn't really gotten an honest look. As we all know well, injuries have plagued the A's to the point, that we don't know how good any of these players really are. Chavez' arm injury really needed rest last year and probably contrubuted to his downhill slide offensively. Harden, Crosby and Bradley all have a load of talent and being healthy is the only key. Dan Johnson is puzzling because he was the PCL player of the year in 2004 and seemed to be on the verge of Major League stardom in 2005 and went into a puzzling decline last year. If he can overcome whatever plagues him, and the rest have a little luck on the health front, the A's will be the team to beat. However, that is far from a foregone conclusion and Beane needs to stick with what he has right now to see where it will all go in the future. Great post by the way!!

by may7 on Jan 25, 2007 12:25 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmm...
I think every year should be an evaluation year.  A GM's job is never to sit back and say: "Look at what a great team I've created."  I always want Beane to be evaluating where we are now, and where we can or should be in five years.  That's his job.  

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 25, 2007 12:28 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Interesting stuff...
I wonder if Blez asked Billy Beane about this theory in the soon-to-be-revealed latest interview.

It also didn't help that this was a weak free agency year.  Obviously the A's are rarely in the running for the top names, but even the middle-of-the-road names the A's could count on to make a steal aren't even middle-of-the-road players.

So yeah, I can see 2007 being a "see what sticks" kind of year and go from there.

 

"So, whatever, Ozzie." -- Nick Swisher

by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Jan 25, 2007 1:44 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pretty good writing
Good writing would disagree with Kendalls mediocre 2006. I thought he made excellent improvements in 2006.

I believe 2007 is looking like an evaluation period. I just hope that our players dont fall further off the talent market and if the worst happens and players like Crosby , Harden , etc. dont pan out we could still rebuild for the future.

I would love nothing more then if the A's fail by midseason and are at least 9 games out of first we make some major changes and really look to build a super foundation for Cisco Field. That means trading everbody with some value for some real star prospects.

by tankormike on Jan 25, 2007 6:32 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

kendall
kendall was 3rd in batting and 4th in obp for catchers who played in 140+ games.  if you lower the games played to 130+ he ranks 5th and 5th respectively.  i don't know what more you could want from a guy, he suits up almost everyday and produced.  sure you might want a little more power from a guy we're paying 8 mil to but how do you measure the effect he's having on our young pitching.  i'm happy with kendall as long as he produces like he did last year and maybe we'll get 3 jacks from him this year.
"I'd like to reference a brilliant post from Left Coast Lumber today" - notsellingjeans

by methodrampage on Jan 26, 2007 9:23 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is a great diary
accompanied by great discussion.
"Look its either batman or batman and robin not robin w/o batman robin isn't sh@#."--cchefz71

by jeepers on Jan 26, 2007 11:33 AM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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