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A Purist's View On Statistical Analysis

I was talking with a friend of mine today and we engaged in a debate about statistical analysis.  Being an A's fan, it's difficult not to get caught up in the intense debate between statheads (Bill James and so forth) and the Joe Morgans of the world.  My two cents:

The emphasis on statistical analysis has gone way beyond what I can take.  Baseball is an athletic contest; let's not make it into a computer game.  You can easily inflate average players based on statistical analysis.  Take Kevin Youkilis for the Red Sox as a prime example of a high OBP player that would be considered valuable as an offensive player.  Pretty good hitter with a patient eye, we all know this from watching games.  However, we also know from observation that he's slow.  He's a below average fielder, both at 1B and at 3B.  Would you take him over Eric Chavez?  You'd have to be nuts to say yes, despite Youkilis' 40 point OBP career advantage.  There are so many ways to evaluate a good baseball players, some that even metrics can't agree on (defensive range and arm, fielding prowess, speed on the basepaths, etc.).  It also doesn't take someone with a Ph.D in Statistics to tell you that Adrian Beltre isn't really that good of a hitter, despite his one great year playing for the Dodgers.  His swing is raw and he still regularly tries to pull pitches on the outer half, rolling over the top and creating routine groundouts.  Statistics would say that the season was an outlier, but that isn't hard to figure out if you didn't watch baseball on a regular basis.

Now, I understand that part of the hype is due to the old school crowd making baseless statements like: "Moneyball advocates not stealing bases."  Statistically, I've heard stealing is beneficial when you're successful anywhere around 75-80% of the time.  Logically, this makes sense.  You steal a base when you think you're going to be successful most of the time.  But, this is what you've been trying to do anyway, you wouldn't do it if you weren't good at it. All statisticians are saying is that if you're good at stealing bases, go ahead. If you're not, don't bother. David Ortiz is a not a good basestealer; you wouldn't have him steal regularly.  Not very hard to reason through something like that.  And all putting a stopwatch on Pudge's throw to second is doing is reinforcing the fact that he's really good at getting the ball there quickly and that you probably don't have much of a chance of making it to second unless you're Rickey Henderson.  So, I'm trying to find the middle ground here.  I can't stand ignorance from either extreme.

Statistics to me are just common sense put in numerical format.  What really bothers me about some is that they pretend to predict the future based on statistics.  People try to extrapolate what will happen based on past stats.  That is not the point of statistics; statistics are useful to formulate probabilities for certain events to give confidence to hypotheses and predictions.  Using them as an end-all solution is not only crazy, it's incorrect.  I can't sit here and tell you that Eric Chavez will hit 30 HRs next year.  I can say confidently that he could, because he averages that many HRs, but he could hit 45 after fixing a swing fault, or he could be dealing with a degenerative shoulder and only hit 20.  Baseball is random and human; no analysis will change that fact.

I just hope we don't all lose the point of watching baseball.  It is a beautiful game.  I cannot describe all of the memories I've had playing it and watching it with numbers.  Why should I change my thought process?

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Yeah, I'm with that.
I enjoy baseball on both levels you are talking about and sometimes I feel, too as though the emphasis on stats can cloud one's baseball vision.  I would point out that the front offices (from what I am reading/inferring) are NOT using ONLY stats.  Stats are only a new(ish) way of adding more (and in some cases different) evaluations to baseball that CAN be more accurate than a feeling (not saying that all other forms of evaluation are feelings, it's just the best word for this... increasingly run-on sentence).

The stolen base example.  'The numbers' bear out that an acceptable rate of success is about 75-80% (using your numbers, since I don't want to thumb through Moneyball to get what's printed there; sounds right, though).  However, as is pointed out in that book (that I would like to rely less on for examples, but who really cares?) basestealers are hearalded even when their sucess rate is below an 'acceptable' rate.

Aha!  What is acceptable, though?  I make no claims to knowing this.  In Moneyball there is a part on the rate of scoring in the different 'situations' in a baseball game, but as I cannot recall them off the top of my head (and good for me; being able to do so would make me way too pathetic), but that doesn't make me scoff at every double steal attempt by the opposition.

These stats were/are a means to understand the game... differently, not necessarily better.  And with that different perspective, those that put together a baseball team for the BUSINESS purposes of winning games have found that they can help them in that endeavor.  To enjoy stats in a baseball game to the detriment of enjoying the game its self -from the fan's perspective- is missing the point and... well, a bummer.  In some instances I do enjoy using my limited seamhead-stathead knowledge to enjoy baseball from a different (again, not necessarily better) perspective.  But as I am not financially comitted to the team and they are for my ENTERTAINMENT purposes only, I do not get overly concerned with the stats.

So:  If you don't like stats, fine.  If you do, that's great, too.  Either way, enjoy baseball however and whenever you can as best you can and try not to let other's... perspectives and passions grate on you too much.  If either 'side' misses out on something you feel strongly about, oh well, their loss.

I'll take my peanuts, crackerjacks and an A's wins anyway I can.

by StewFan on Aug 21, 2006 10:26 PM PDT   0 recs

Right on
Win Expectancy and VORP are a little much. Plus, the latter is so insulting to the replacement player...I mean, they already suffer the indignity of being excluded from MLBPA licensing revenues and now they get dragged into this?

I still can't figure out if, all things being equal, I would rather have a runner on first with nobody out or a runner on second with one out. A ground ball double play can screw up the first scenario and a wild pitch/passed ball in the second scneario would be golden.

There are only so many stats to find inefficiencies with before everyone else catches up to you. Then it becomes one big circle so you move on to MLS, but only after you win a World Series and get a new stadium.

by southofcruiseamerica on Aug 21, 2006 11:25 PM PDT   0 recs

Exactly
I think Mr. Beane stays away from overvalued statistics as well.  Our lineup is terrible this year, but the defense, team speed, and pitching are much improved from 2000.  GM's are paid to fill holes; however they do that (either through valuing statistical analysis or physical tools, or both) is their business.

by baseb3383 on Aug 22, 2006 5:16 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Well, I can tell you which one you'd prefer.
Simply based on the numbers, you'd rather have a runner on first base and no outs. It may be more sexy to have one of those fabled "runners in scoring position", but you're literally more likely to score a run if you don't give that out away.

I can totally understand why someone would rather not know or understand how the math works behind the scenes. But I am not one of those people. I am an engineer and a scientist, and I have to know how and why you need to steal 70% or better to at least break even.

I want to understand what Voros McCracken means when he says that a pitcher has no control over how well hitters do on balls put in play, no matter if he's right or wrong. And I'm absolutely interested in how fielders can accurately be judged against each other. Those are really cool questions to ask, and the game of baseball is a scientifically analyzable system, just the same as the solar system, the circulatory system, or the shipping system for amazon.com.

Anyway, this is not really meant to be a dig on people who don't care that much about this. But it is usually pretty easy to figure out when you're about to dive headfirst into a meaty statistical discussion and when you're about to plow into the sweet, cream-filled center of a session of chick talk, so I wouldn't worry too much about the amount of the one vs. the other on AN.

by hunter on Aug 22, 2006 10:46 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

To me...
...the most important use of statistics is when it contradicts common sense. You think a pitcher stinks, but he may have just turned in six straight quality starts. You think a batter is doing great, but he's really just hitting .270. Human observers are quite susceptible to things that make a strong impression (especially when it comes with a narrative), which leads us to overgeneralizations that lead us astray.

by GlassHeart on Aug 22, 2006 12:51 AM PDT   0 recs

One's eyes...
... aren't an excuse to  willful ignorance.

Most "stat-heads" would agree with your general premise - that you can't just rely on stats any more than you can just rely on your eyes. Most would also say that there isn't one single stat that tells the whole story (although they keep working on compound stats that attempt to get close).

The issue I see is when proponents of using one's eyes hold it up as the only way. Of course, I see the same problem with people that offer stats as the only way. Among the bobble-heads that comment on baseball on television, there are far more of the former than the latter. Those people are what cause the stat heads to dial up their rhetoric. When Joe Morgan or John Kruk says something with absolute certainty and authority and it turns out to be utterly ridiculous based on the available stats, it pisses people off!

With that said, I think statistical analysis of the game is far more important for low budget teams like our A's. Teams with lots of money can afford to buy the best players available at every position (e.g. the Yankees, etc). The A's can't afford to do that. They have to pick their spots. To cite your example, I don't think anyone would argue the Kevin Youkilis is a better player than Eric Chavez, but look at their salaries. Youkilis is cheaper than Chavez - is his production good enough such that the difference in salary could buy the team another decent player? If so, would the combined production of those two players be better than the combined production of Chavez plus a replacement level player?

In this case, I think we can conclude that keeping Chavvy is preferable. What stats do is provide the A's with a method for having that conversation, and in so doing, they can have some level of security in thinking that their money is probably well spent. The A's have scouts that use their eyes to sanity check what the stats tell them. There will always be other factors as well that don't show up in the stats (injury history, ability to deal with pressure, etc), and again that is where the eyes come into play.

by RickeySteals on Aug 22, 2006 12:57 AM PDT   0 recs

Ugh...
excuse for willful ignorance. So much for proofreading...

by RickeySteals on Aug 22, 2006 12:58 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

OK.
I'm sorry, but you aren't being fair to the "statheads" in this argument.  You're attributing qualities to us that, frankly, don't exist.  None of us thinks that the numbers are the end-all be-all of the game.  If that were the case, then none of us would bother watching it.  We'd just run the numbers and use Diamond Mind simulations to figure out who is winning the World Series this year, and forego the actual playing and watching of the games.

That's ludicrious.

At the end of the day, we like baseball.  I don't look up the stats for basketball because I don't like basketball.  I don't like watching basketball games.  I can barely stand playing it.

However, I watch pretty much every single A's game I can catch on TV.  I'll listen to the games I can't watch.  I'll Gameday the games I can't listen to.  Why?  Because I love the game.

I acknowledge the beauty of a well-turned double play.  I love sitting on the edge of my seat at the bottom of the ninth with the winning run at the plate.  I get ecstatic when I watch a pitcher get a batter so completely off-balance that he not only swings and misses, but turns himself around in the process.

None of us denies the beauty of the game.  It's why we watch it.  It's why we follow it.

What we do object to, however, is people having orgasms over watching Derek Jeter's "defense", when any objective analysis shows him as being one of the worst-fielding shortstops in the majors for his entire career.  What we don't like is when "analysts" scream about a batter's .300 AVG when it's accompanied by a .310 OBP.

We aren't some sort of weird nerd caricature that only looks at spreadsheets and never watches a game of baseball.  So please, stop calling us such.

------------------

It also doesn't take someone with a Ph.D in Statistics to tell you that Adrian Beltre isn't really that good of a hitter, despite his one great year playing for the Dodgers.  His swing is raw and he still regularly tries to pull pitches on the outer half, rolling over the top and creating routine groundouts.  Statistics would say that the season was an outlier, but that isn't hard to figure out if you didn't watch baseball on a regular basis.

The statheads were the ones who said that all signs pointed to Adrian Beltre's last year with the Dodgers being a fluke.  That's why DePodesta stuck with his guns and refused to overpay for Beltre's services.

Statistics to me are just common sense put in numerical format.  What really bothers me about some is that they pretend to predict the future based on statistics.  People try to extrapolate what will happen based on past stats.  That is not the point of statistics; statistics are useful to formulate probabilities for certain events to give confidence to hypotheses and predictions.  Using them as an end-all solution is not only crazy, it's incorrect.

Umm...you just contradicted yourself.  Twice.

And statistics, as a science, must necessarily be about using past data to predict future events.  That's the point.  There's no reason to do any science whatsoever if you aren't going to attempt to predict what will happen in the future based on what has happened in the past.

And I know I'm repeating myself here, but since you don't seem to be getting the message - none of us believes that the numbers are everything.  Only an idiot who had no notion of what statistics actually is would believe that the numbers tell you everything.

by Inquisitor on Aug 22, 2006 1:40 AM PDT   0 recs

Umm... you didn't read my post carefully
The basic lesson of extrapolation in math is that you can't use past data to predict in any absolute fashion what will happen in the future.  You can try, just don't expect to get anything except for probabilities and a confidence interval.

You can talk about VORP, OPS, Win Shares etc. all day but that you really don't need so many metrics to predict what should be common sense; you can predict how someone will do with a fairly high level of confidence just glancing at the back of a baseball card.

by baseb3383 on Aug 22, 2006 5:13 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

*sigh*
OK, now it's pretty obvious you aren't here for an honest discussion.

I understand what you're saying - you believe that it's unecessary to "crunch the numbers" because "common sense" will tell you everything you need to know about the game anyway.

If that's your opinion, good for you.  I'd just prefer not to see the runaround logic and poor rationalizations (with a touch of semantic quibbling).  You don't like the numbers.  I get it.

And yes, I'm in a bad mood.  I just had to deal with some idiot blathering on about Intelligent Design as a "valid scientific theory".  I'm not in the mood to get more of the same here.

by Inquisitor on Aug 22, 2006 7:38 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't think so
You sir are not in the mood for an honest discussion.  I really don't care whether you are in a bad mood or not because you had to explain a principle (which is your own opinion, not a fact); you could have been courteous with your first post and offered your opinion with examples counter to mine.  This is not semantics; I'm saying that many people overvalue the impact of statistics to explain the game of baseball to the point where just watching the game and evaluating talent takes a back seat.  I am also saying that statistics are useful in providing some guidance into the future but are nothing more than educated guesses.  Am I wrong?

by baseb3383 on Aug 22, 2006 8:43 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You're not literally wrong when you say
that they're nothing more than uneducated guesses, but I'd rather have those than the back of a baseball card, because all a baseball card can give you are uneducated guesses.

by hunter on Aug 22, 2006 11:00 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Whoa now
You're saying that stats like homeruns, doubles, games played, etc. are uneducated guesses?  Those are probably some of the least overrated stats around.

by baseb3383 on Aug 22, 2006 12:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Homers and doubles are better viewed as
parts of slugging average. Games played is nice, but if a team has another player that's as good as that player, then you might have a platoon situation, which means less games, but not necessarily less performance. Really, I'm talking about batting average, wins and losses, etc. on the baseball card, just that the the stuff on the card is either trivia stuff or the really simple stuff. Fun to know, pay attention to, but not very good for judging a player.

by hunter on Aug 22, 2006 1:02 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree on some points
Agree about wins and losses, not totally about batting average, as generally more valuable offensive players have higher BAs.  However, games played is valuable.  That is a pretty easy way (albeit rough) to get a picture of a player's injury history, which is an important factor.

by baseb3383 on Aug 22, 2006 1:07 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Homers and doubles are better viewed as
parts of slugging average. Games played is nice, but if a team has another player that's as good as that player, then you might have a platoon situation, which means less games, but not necessarily less performance. Really, I'm talking about batting average, wins and losses, etc. on the baseball card, just that the the stuff on the card is either trivia stuff or the really simple stuff. Fun to know, pay attention to, but not very good for judging a player.

not very related, but funny anyway

by hunter on Aug 22, 2006 1:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

slight quibble
Using past data to predict what is most likely to happen in the future is the very field of probability.  By 'absolute fashion' and other arguments you take, I think you meant that you can't predict in an exact fashion what will happen.  Obviously not -- if someone's batting .300, I wouldn't expect him to get 30% of a hit at every at-bat.  Batting is a stochastic process (well, not exactly, but that is a different story). As you say, you can get a pretty good idea, with confidence intervals, of what's most likely to happen, which is what any good GM has to know in order to plan for the future.  The point of using probability and statistics is to maximize the chances of winning, even if there's no absolute guarantee.  One advantage of this is that certain, historically overlooked data are determined by number-crunching to be more responsible for scoring runs and winning than other, more common, data, like OBP over BA.  

by sec119 on Aug 23, 2006 8:34 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Also
I'm not defending idiot broadcasters who don't know baseball half as well as they played it.  I can tell you from watching a lot of baseball that Jeter makes routine errors and doesn't have much range at the shortstop position; if you are a careful and astute observer of the game, why bother with so many metrics?  Also, if an announcer talks about a player's .300 batting average while ignoring the .310 OBP, isn't that overvaluing a statistic as well?  Exactly the thing I was arguing against?  Maybe if you watched the guy for a little while, you could observe that he swings at everything, and that while he might get a lot of hits, he doesn't work the pitcher and has a terrible eye around the plate.  That kind of analysis would tell the exact same thing that the numbers would.

by baseb3383 on Aug 22, 2006 5:22 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Careful and astute
observation of the game(s) is fine; but are you going to watch every game that every team plays? Furthermore, how do you avoid bias and/or personal likes and dislikes from influencing the conclusions that you make based on your observations?

by rfloh on Aug 22, 2006 8:53 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Right, that's the whole point of trusting
the metrics and stats more than trusting the verbal description of some scout. That, namely, is that gut instincts and visual examiniation are often totally wrong and won't get you anywhere. Rounding a bunch of empirical information into a consistent judgement of how good a player is is so fraught with peril that you may as well just toss a coin based on how muscular a guy's forearms, or how tall and lanky a pitcher is. Coincidentally, I think this is what a lot of GMs (Steve Phillips, Allaird Baird, I'm looking at you) have done, and that's why they suck at their jobs.

by hunter on Aug 22, 2006 11:05 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Everything has bias
Statistical systems themselves have bias.  In order to create a statistic in the first place, you have to weigh what numbers are most important.  Nothing is ever objective in this world.  Part of evaluating talent is taking empirical observation into account.  To say that following your gut is wrought with peril is an overreaction to say the least; I bet we could all sit down and name the top baseball players in the game and easily agree on them without having to do a rigorous statistical analysis.

by baseb3383 on Aug 22, 2006 12:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Objective analysis...
of Jeter's defense???  Where, pre tell, does that exist.  That argument from "stat heads" is akin to "purists" going wild over a guy with a .300 BA when he has a .310 OBP.  You can throw all kinds of stats on defense, but none of them measure glove to throwing hand transfer, turning a double play (you claim to enjoy watching one - well how do you measure that "objectively"?), or being in position to make the good relay throw.  There is so much that goes into defense that statistical analysis does not and cannot measure, that even James himself stays away from it.
Statistical analysis is far from "objective."  The stats can be made to show whatever the person wants them to show.  Personally, I'd take Jeter over Crosby any day, and Scutaro shouldn't even enter into the conversation.  Other than Young or moving ARod back to short, I can't think of another SS I'd rather have than Jeter when you factor in all the intangibles.

by IndianaAsfan on Aug 22, 2006 7:44 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I hate to be Petty but Don't Do Me Like That
Excellent comments in reply to your diary already so I hate to be the exception to the already established rule.  Though this has never stopped me from putting the turd in the punchbowl before...and why let it stop me now?  

The 'stat head' movement isn't for everyone but it sure has allowed a team like the Athletics to maximize and economize.  It is tough to argue against how a team like Oakland can remain competitive while keeping its payroll, relative to the other competitive teams, in the lower end of the league's team-salary median.  Whether it's assembling the team from year to year or playing percentage ball during an actual game, it would appear, at least anecdotally, that Oakland is doing something right.  And of course, in general, we know what that 'something' is and its not traditional baseball purism.

To some purists this movement is bothersome.  Why? Does the movement's ideology take away from the game somehow?  I suppose it's the omission of the 'traditional' leadoff man that irks some or maybe seeing someone like Scott Hatteberg playing first base instead of the homerun threat that has to be, rightfully, playing that corner infield position.  Maybe it is the lineups that don't seem like that they're purist assembled.

But seriously, look throughout the years and really investigate these purist thoughts.  How many teams in any given season had a prototype leadoff hitter as compared to today?  How many had thumping first basemen?  Okay, there probably were more thumping first basemen in past seasons but could it be possible that the thump has just been better distributed to other positions?  Perhaps some are even playing shortstop if you can believe that!  And how often are the same lineups used during a season anyway?

My main thrust is this: yes, it is a beautiful, random game played by [sometimes overpaid] human beings, but, if you think that I, as an Athletics' fan, want to go back to the days of being competitive for one to two seasons and then suffer through two to three sub .500 seasons, then please take the purist in me behind the barn and shoot him dead!"

Oh, by the way, that was a curious way to apply wording to kick off a diary.  Just curious, but at any point during the conversation between you and your friend did he happen to mention that a woman had hurt his pride?

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by LowcountryJoe on Aug 22, 2006 4:46 AM PDT   0 recs

To be honest
Scott Hatteberg, as much as I love the guy for his Oregon roots, was a below average hitting first baseman.  Mr. Beane overpaid for him, lesson learned.  Funny thing is, he is actually staying away from overvalued statistics.  He is, like any other GM, trying to fill holes.  There are many ways to do that, whether you value physical tools or statistical analysis more.  This years team is built on pitching and defense and the hitting is lousy.  To say he's using statistics to economize by stockpiling fill-in players isn't really doing his job justice.

by baseb3383 on Aug 22, 2006 5:07 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Funny thing is, that's what this is about
Funny thing is, he [Beane] is actually staying away from overvalued statistics.  He is, like any other GM, trying to fill holes.  There are many ways to do that, whether you value physical tools or statistical analysis more.  This years team is built on pitching and defense and the hitting is lousy.  To say he's using statistics to economize by stockpiling fill-in players isn't really doing his job justice.

The whole point of the book Moneyball was to make judgments about the tradeoffs between those skills or attributes that are overvalued/undervalued -- overvalued/undervalued in the form of the player-salary costs associated with paying for said skills and attributes.  The tradeoffs are the key!  Which doesn't necessarily mean that Beane stays away from an overvalued skill; No!  What it means is that the calculations change and with them so do the consequences of the choices between these valued skills.

As to your point about filling holes: have noticed what Michael Lewis titled his chapter when he introduced and started discussing Hattegerg?  And the way the current team is built resembles a old, old school pruist's dream does it not [This years team is built on pitching and defense...]?

Oh, and to say that econometrics have not been a part of Beane's method to compose an economical yet competitive team is an equal injustice to those that respect the 'stat heads' for finding the right balance tradeoffs by sifting through data and plugging the data into statistical models.

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by LowcountryJoe on Aug 22, 2006 7:16 AM PDT   0 recs

I agree with you
I think any smart GM uses both methods and determines what is under and overvalued before making a decision.

by baseb3383 on Aug 22, 2006 8:33 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'll agree with that
Baseball insiders have got to go with traditional scouting, too.  Perhaps we could also agree that the most recent use of statistical modeling/methodology has been transformational to the game and has created a whole new awarness and an expansion of thought?  Further agree that this new awarness and thought has been beneficial to the game...would you go that far?
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by LowcountryJoe on Aug 22, 2006 10:10 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

To a point
The awareness of new statistics has led to some hyperbole by both sides, which was what I was trying to get at but evidently hit the wrong chord with others.  You have the Plaschke's and Morgan's of the world talking about the ridiculousness of using any stats at all, valuing instead "old baseball knowledge".  That view is just nuts.  I think in reaction to said view, people are trying to use those new stats to back up their opinions to debate Joe, as if Joe actually knows baseball and watches baseball regularly (neither of which is plausible).  The new statistics are fine and the whole process is interesting to study, but there should be a medium between statistics and a standard baseball talent evaluation.

by baseb3383 on Aug 22, 2006 12:53 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

So, the new statistical methods, in your view,...
...have only benefited the game "to a point"?  There is no doubt that there is "hyperbole" -- if that's the right word -- when following the rhetoric of those that narrowly focus on the statistics, but the question I posed didn't leave room for grey area in any potential reply.  If new statistical methods didn't help, then say so, please.  If, in your opinion, they have, then say that instead.

Maybe your contention is that not all statistical methods are equal and that focusing too much on some stats have failed to yield desirable performance results.  Please correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth.

My point is, and always has been, that the yield should not be measured from player to player but instead on what the team accomplishes together in the win/loss column.  On that score, the Oakland Athletics have done well for an unfluky-like period of time and they've done it while consistantly staying within a stable and sustainable budget.  Can this be explained away without mentioning the role of statistics?  It should be obvious to everyone that baseball purism is not what's predominatly at work in Oakland.  

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by LowcountryJoe on Aug 22, 2006 1:14 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Well
New statistics have helped.  But I say to a point because the newer stats have not been presented in a way that makes them accessible to the average fan.  Instead of trying to use them to argue with the Morgans, Celizics, Phillips, Kruks, etc. of the world, we would be better served just accepting them as baseball idiots.  Now, you've got those announcers defaming these new methods and fans are just tuning out both sides.  Also, just an aside here, the acronyms are getting absurd.  No wonder people make fun of VORP.  It sounds like a skin ailment.

Finally, I don't think the A's have some sort of secret winning formula.  It's a consistent philosophy that has been applied over a long period.  Stockpile draft picks and cheap prospects, give platoon players a chance to prove themselves, and take chances on players with injury concerns are all hallmarks of our front office.  It doesn't just stop there though, the A's minor league system is top notch.  We seem to also do a great job of player development at the lower levels.  It's a combination of things that have led to continued success.  Despite this, beyond this year there are some question marks as to whether we will be able to sustain this above .500 phase.  The last few years haven't been very challenging to the front office given the gluttony of pitching talent we landed in Zito, Mulder, and Hudson (and all the pieces we got in return).

by baseb3383 on Aug 22, 2006 1:28 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

A gluttony of pitching talent
I was going to suggest that what you really meant is "a glut of pitching talent" ... but then, on reflection, I'd have to say that the way you wrote it is a better description of what we have right now.
"...but we're also always open to hearing about other sandwiches if it can make our lunch better." -- Nico, channeling Billy Beane

by iglew on Aug 22, 2006 4:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

A company declares losses instead of profits

...the next year it makes adjustments or sits back and accepts losses yet another year.

The only valid measurement for any business or MLB team is did we make money and how can we make more...
money?

As you break this down for a team you discern the effect winning will or won't have on reciepts;

  1. Media money (yes = more viewers)
  2. Revenue Sharing (no effect)
  3. Gate (yes)
  4. Concessions (yes)
  5. Licensing; A's apparel, royalties, "MacAfee", joint ventures, etc (yes)
  6. Stadium, homes, and "village" construction. (yes)
At this point in time winning and growing team popularity has some bearing on #1, 3, 4, 5, 6.

While all six items affect income/profits to some extent I would think #6 is the driving force for an ownership that has made it's profits this way for decades.

At ownership level: the stats of the profit/loss statement are keys to the A's roster being an asset or losing proposition, and what options are or are not used.

Tell me the dollars differences on income if the A's make the playoffs by a game, 10 games, or miss them by 2 games... Is there a carryover over to the next season? ...What ever those differences are they affect the strategy throughout the season and the following season. Adding a bat or starter or passing due to "costs" are all valid options.

Of larger effect; What will this ownership do if they DON'T contract on building a Stadium while enjoying the player salary subsidies their first 5 years as owners?

At team level: I have to think cumulative totals are sought. Obviously team average, obp, slg, Hrs, ERA, and omni-potent runs, all with an eye on wins is sought. At team roster level there is probably some concern over Perez's offense and much rejoicing over Frank's.

This years Runs totals indicate problems.

Take out the games Vs the lowly M's (1 loss), and we are lagging way behind our potential playoffs opponments. Regardless of the A's individual offensive, defensive, and pitching stats the only stat of meaning and consequence is did you win or lose?

How it happens can be magic, and as a spectator I much prefer magic to logic.

Go A's!

"+4 is our runs margin after 122 games"

by A s Eh on Aug 22, 2006 7:28 AM PDT   0 recs

confession
When I clicked through to this diary, I was sort-of hoping (based on the title) to get a heavy breakdown of how sabermetricians need to increase their level of mathematical rigor. More equations, please.

by colin on Aug 22, 2006 7:43 AM PDT   0 recs

Oh math
I took some mathematical finance in college and learned stochastic calculus (for a few days).  I don't think Charles Schwab would trust me for stock prediction.  Fortunately, I'll leave the random process evaluation to the men and women with doctorates.

by baseb3383 on Aug 22, 2006 8:47 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Youkilis...
You say his defense is below average at 1B and 3B. Are you getting that just from observation? Because, as someone who hasn't watched many Red Sox games this season, I'd like you to explain to me what's "average" for 1B and 3B, and how far below Youks is from said average.

I honestly don't know how good or bad his defense is. And I can't see how your statement is common sense when it's very general and tells me almost nothing.

"I almost landed in some lady's lap, which was kinda fun.'' -- Swish

by Sharon on Aug 22, 2006 8:44 AM PDT   0 recs

"common sense"
QED
aka Baron Monkey Von Ballheimer -- FormerHuntsvilleStar @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 22, 2006 10:37 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Youkilis' defense
FWIW, BPro considers him good, both at 1st and 3rd.

They have him at a Rate of 105 this year at 1st, 104 for his career; at 3rd the have him at a rate of 107 for his career. For comparison, Eric Chavez's Rate this year is 114.

The Hardball Times gives him 2.0 fielding win shares; Swisher has 2.2 fielding win shares.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Aug 22, 2006 11:38 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I love the numbers....
of baseball.  It's a way to quantify and describe our observations and impressions.

The numbers of baseball are a great way to butress or rebut my theories about different players and teams.  I like to think of each stat as offering a different perspective of a player; by trying to weave them together you can come up with a 3-D 360 degree view.

Particularly useful because I don't get to see every game by every player.

by BleacherDave on Aug 22, 2006 9:03 AM PDT   0 recs

Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics
The big trouble with statistics is that they are so easy to misuse.  In a given situation (ie bases loaded, 1 out) you could look at OBP, BA, BA-RISP, those variants against lefties (or righties), Career vs current year, etc.
With all those different stat values, one is bound to contradict the others.

(I for one hate the stat showing how many career GS a battter has in that situation - talk about small sample size and stats so old they might not be relevant!)

So I will agree that casual stat usage often leads to incorrect presumptions, just like looking soley at physical form (ie nice swing) may miss important results (nice swing, but strikes out a ton.)  

by MobiusKlein on Aug 22, 2006 10:28 AM PDT   0 recs

The likelihood of statistics abuse
is strongly correlated to why the statistics are being employed.

If your goal is to try to predict something unknown -- like how to best win a ball game, or how to cure cancer -- then you have absolutely no reason to twist statistics in your favor. That's because you have no ax to grind. All you want is the best result, and you'll use statistics as a tool as far as they really are helpful. If ZORP really is a better predictive tool than BEBOP in evaluating a player, then you're going to use ZORP -- not out of advocacy, but simply because it works.

If, on the other hand, your goal is to win an argument -- to "prove" that this guy is better than that guy, or to persuade consumers to buy your product instead of the other company's -- then you have plenty of reason to bamboozle the listener with phony statistics.

A lie is a lie. Statistics are just a tool that can be used for truth-seeking or for lying.

"...but we're also always open to hearing about other sandwiches if it can make our lunch better." -- Nico, channeling Billy Beane

by iglew on Aug 22, 2006 4:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Once caveat
It's easy to make subtle errors using statistics.   And even the best use of statistics can draw the wrong conclusions, due to sampling errors, and random fluctuations.

by MobiusKlein on Aug 23, 2006 9:26 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes, but that's very different than
intentional misuse.

The caveat that I would point out is that even among cancer researchers (or any other observation-based discipline) there is some bias due to scientists wanting to prove their materials/methods more correct or more likely to lead to the desired solution.  The motivations are myriad; research grants, professional development, ego, a desire to promote one's work so as not to see one's professional accomplishments go by the wayside.  Despite this, cancer research is generally going pretty well.

I suspect that baseball research is prone to similar  problems, but on the whole, analytical research in baseball is still uncovering truths.  I just think it's better to acknowledge that the problem probably exists.

Stat Wonk Futurist

by salb918 on Aug 23, 2006 9:51 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

well, obviously what we need to do is ...
... combine the two disciplines, so that we can ultimately develop a cytotoxic radiolabeled infusion that will prevent Bobby Crosby from swinging at sliders off the plate.
aka Baron Monkey Von Ballheimer -- FormerHuntsvilleStar @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 23, 2006 9:55 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Of course the bigest use of stats....
is the color commentary saying all sorts of things, much with dubious utility, to fill time or to be entertaining.   That is a good reason to distrust context-less stats you see most often.

by MobiusKlein on Aug 23, 2006 10:55 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Right on.
"With a runner on third and less than two out, Joe Ballplayer has brought the runner home 12 our of 17 times."

Really?  What's the league average for that situation?  Is Joe Ballplayer being pitched around?  When people have an intuitive distrust for "new" stats (or any at all), it is because they don't know how to contextualize the information.  People are comfortable with batting average because everyone knows that .300 is a good batting average.  But most people who think that VORP or Win Shares is a crock of bull don't have a way of contextualizing the information.  That's not the fault of the statistics.

Stat Wonk Futurist

by salb918 on Aug 23, 2006 11:32 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't like organic produce and oat bran
I was raised on fried-bologna-and-Miracle Whip-on-Wonder Bread sandwiches, and I'm sick of all these pencil-necked, namby-pamby, nation-building know-it-alls trying to cram heirloom tomatoes and grass-fed beef down my gullet with wooden spoons while I'm strapped down like Alex de Large. And this isn't hyperbole: I literally am no longer allowed to enjoy my simple, traditional, mass-produced pleasures. There are no outlets that foster the synthetic Purity of my youth, no merchants who will offer me what I crave. Instead, I, THX-1138, am assaulted on all sides by the inifinite blankness of the Nameless Numberhead Men, who have regulated my creature comforts out of existence. The big screen on my wall monitors me at all times for violating the ordinances against the thought crime of reading a non-sabermetric text. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a foot in sensible shoes and high-water pants (with a pocket protector on a dacron shirt holding a slide rule) stamping on a human face--for ever.
aka Baron Monkey Von Ballheimer -- FormerHuntsvilleStar @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 22, 2006 10:33 AM PDT   0 recs

Yuck, I can smell the aftermath of that from here
I was raised on fried-bologna-and-Miracle Whip-on-Wonder Bread sandwiches

No doubt that such a combination would create some wicked wind -- the kind of wind you refered to in your unstatesman-like reply in today's DLD -- wind that brings on the giggles.

By the way, the dacron shirt and pocket protector are signs of progress and hipness, get with the times you closed-minded knuckle-dragger.

4 8 15 16 23 42

by LowcountryJoe on Aug 22, 2006 10:47 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Ah ha!
monkeyball is Robert Duvall! It seems so obvious now.
A's 2006 record when I attend: 8-7

by peanut gallery on Aug 22, 2006 11:37 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

<inhales deeply>
I love the smell of AN in the morning.... It smells like -- victory.
aka Baron Monkey Von Ballheimer -- FormerHuntsvilleStar @('.')@

by monkeyball on Aug 22, 2006 1:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

In August, yes!
In May? Not so much.
A's 2006 record when I attend: 8-7

by peanut gallery on Aug 22, 2006 4:06 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

phenomenal
nice Orwell reference at the end
I am no drunkard, I'm a hard-working man.

by Cutthemullet on Aug 22, 2006 10:43 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Question re pitchers and wins
If a starting pitcher goes less than five innings, he is not eligible for the win, even if he leaves with the lead, correct?  But does he take the loss if he leaves behind and the team never recovers?  If the next relief pitcher holds the lead, does he get the win?  Does the closer get the save and the win?  Could one of you kindly statheads explain the rules to me on who gets credit for wins and saves?  Thank you!
"The worst day on a ball field is better than the best day in any office." - David Wright

by kkdaz on Aug 22, 2006 12:50 PM PDT   0 recs

Wins and Losses
If a starter goes less than five, no win even with a lead.  The reliever that is pitching through the 5th inning gets the win.  If a starter is losing and is pulled before the fifth inning is completed, he will get a loss.  The closer only gets credit for a win if he was pitching when the winning run was scored.  Under no circumstances can a pitcher receive both a win and a save.

by baseb3383 on Aug 22, 2006 12:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Re:
If a starter goes less than 5 innings and has the lead, and his team leads for the remainder of the game, the win goes to the most effective reliever, and not necessarily the one who pitched through the 5th inning.

Official MLB Rules (10.19 c)

When, during the tenure of the starting pitcher, the winning team assumes the lead and maintains it to the finish of the game, credit the victory to the relief pitcher judged by the scorer to have been the most effective;
"I think every memeber of AN should send every memeber of LL 20 bucks." ~ Goose on LL

by AsGirl on Aug 22, 2006 2:19 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Wow
Thanks AsGirl, I had no idea that was the actual rule.  As far as the most effective reliever part, what a weird clause.  I guess it's just the scorekeeper's discretion as to who was the best reliever?

by baseb3383 on Aug 22, 2006 2:26 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

yes, but
almost every time the scorekeeper will take the guy who got the third out in the fifth.

by vk on Aug 22, 2006 9:30 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Further question
OK, starter goes 5+, leaves with the lead.  Team falls behind in the 6th, goes back ahead in the 7th.  Does the starter still get the win, or does it go to the pitcher of record in the inning where the winning run is scored?  Thanks again.
"The worst day on a ball field is better than the best day in any office." - David Wright

by kkdaz on Aug 22, 2006 1:51 PM PDT   0 recs

It will be the pitcher of record...
... and in this case, it won't be the starter.  
"I think every memeber of AN should send every memeber of LL 20 bucks." ~ Goose on LL

by AsGirl on Aug 22, 2006 2:06 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs