No Good, Very Bad, Horrible News

by OaktownIn06 on Jul 4, 2006 1:56 AM PDT Comment 34 comments

I am sorry to be the one to report, but Rich Harden suffered a setback today in his 25 pitch side session.

From Rotoworld:
'Harden is recovering from a sprained ligament in his right elbow, and threw on the side to test it. "He hurt himself 25 days ago and that's the short edge of ligament healing," trainer Larry Davis said. "It was indication he was not ready to start a throwing program. We'll wait even longer and see what happens." A return in July is now highly unlikely. Harden might require Tommy John surgery at some point."'

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.asp?sport=MLB&lastline=183852&id=37 19

This is horrible, horrible news. That blurb just gets worse and worse every time I read over it. Surgery? Cmon. Not good. I do not even know what to say. I can not form words together to make a thoughtful, witty, or even just meaningful statement.
<insert obsene word, phrase, gesture, or action here>.

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This is getting tired:

I reported that his arm slot was horrible because of his left arm pulling him through the zone instead of being tucked and that CY was looking the other way when I was in Spring Training.

Beane...Just hire and PAY me and we'll be sorted.

While taint is everywhere and baseball is certainly no different, it's important that it be treated with open attention-Devo

by saint on Jul 4, 2006 2:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

It's so unfortunate to see stuff like this

Especially with a talent like Harden. He's got absolutely filthy stuff when he's not busy nursing himself back to health. You can just envision the hall of fame plaque for him. And then it seems just as quickly you can envision all the DL trips he seemingly has to take.

I'm not particularly learned in the field of medicine, but if the A's were confident TJ surgery would finally right the ship, even if he'd have to miss a lot of time, I think that's what they should opt for.

by walk off bunt on Jul 4, 2006 2:29 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I think I would have erred on the side of caution

If 25 days is the "short end" of ligament healing and you have a pitcher who is notoriously fragile, wouldn't you have waited just a bit longer than the 25 days?

I think I would have.

"There's not a moment of peace and quiet in this damn clubhouse." ~~ Nick Swisher

by luvsthecurveball on Jul 4, 2006 2:47 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

will caroll

and a bunch of us may have been right after all.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Jul 4, 2006 2:53 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Yup

Anyone who has followed baseball the past 5 years would konw to trust Will Carroll over Larry davis. The worst part is that Davis's bullheaded-ness on Tommy john is going to cost us all of 2007 with Harden, if not some of 2008, too...

by SeanR on Jul 4, 2006 7:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

First thing that popped into my head

Ugh

Bring back Hammer.

by OaktownPower on Jul 4, 2006 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Seems like 100% speculation to me.

The only statement I see anywhere on the web that Harden might require TJ surgery is the speculative one-liner rotoworld added to their synopsis.

"The first night, we were right there," Bradley said. "All we needed was a couple of touchdowns, and we would have had them."

by jeepers on Jul 4, 2006 8:04 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

well

A strain is a less severe tear. If I told you that Harden had a torn ligament, you'd instantly know he needed Tommy John. Well, Harden does have a torn ligament. I think Mark Prior said it best when he said "there is no such thing as a strained ligament". They are ALL TEARS.

Forgive me for being cynical, but I just truly feel like this is the A's, once again, refusing to acknowledge the severity of an injury at hand.

by SeanR on Jul 4, 2006 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Shut it down

I guess we have to shut down Harden for the season. The fans just keep on hoping, Beane should make a permanent adjustment at least till season's end on who's to fill Harden's spot and the team's gotta stick to that 5th starter.

by arch on Jul 4, 2006 8:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

If Harden has TJ surgery

in August that he could have had in May, there is very good chance I will be forced to hit something very hard. Poochini and Cindi should keep their distance, as should all the fine china.

I like Cindi. A.She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 4, 2006 9:14 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Disagree.

If Harden has TJ, I guarantee you that it is a "new development" in the sense that rest and rehab didn't work. In an eminently winnable division, Oakland brass is absolutely correct to try to get Harden back this year even if it means delaying a possible TJ and losing two months of Harden next year.

Can intangibles exist? Only the ones you can touch.

by salb918 on Jul 4, 2006 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

But you could argue

That since this is Harden we're talking about, A's brass should have known that rest and rehab wouldn't work.

Probably a stretch for an analogy, but did you see the Simpsons where Homer had that pig with an apple in its mouth for some bar-b-q, and newly vegetarian Lisa pushes the bar-b-q down a hill. And Homer starts running after it ... it gets a little dirty and he's like, "It's just a little dirty ... it's still good, it's still good." It falls into some water and he says, "It's just a little soggy ... it's still good, it's still good." This goes on until somehow it gets launched a couple of miles into the air across the city of Springfield, at which Homer says, "It's just a little airborne ... it's still good, it's still good." So the A's have been like Homer, overreaching in trying to pooh-pooh the extent of Harden's injury issues, even as his brittle-ness becomes exceedingly obvious to everyone else. They need a reality check, which in the Simpsons comes from Bart, who had been following Homer all along as they ran after the pig. "It's gone, dad," he says as the pig flies out of sight.

by rubin sierra on Jul 4, 2006 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The A's should definitely

fire Larry Davis and hire Matt Groening in his place.

I like Cindi. A.She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 4, 2006 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Should have known?

That's ridiculous. Doctors and trainers are monitoring him both internally and externally, and their opinion to rest and rehab is medically correct. Surgery is always the last option, even among regular shlubs like you and me. You don't just perform a surgery because "we should have known rest and rehab wouldn't work because it's Rich Harden we're talking about."

Your Simpsons analogy, while clever, is more germane to a Mark Prior / Kerry Wood situation, where the injuries are more varied, severe, and drawn out that Harden's which have - to this point - been all minor, non-throwing arm issues. (BTW, the technical term for the pig story is "escalating commitment to a failing course of action," although I do prefer to call it the Simpson Luau Effect.)

Can intangibles exist? Only the ones you can touch.

by salb918 on Jul 5, 2006 7:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

ECTAFCOA = "stay the course"

He's an intelligent man to talk to, but he smells like rat urine @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jul 5, 2006 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

ECTAFCOA is going to

make an appearance in some game threads right soon.

Can intangibles exist? Only the ones you can touch.

by salb918 on Jul 5, 2006 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe I'm stupid...

...but is this a Milton Bradley-like setback or a timetable setback? My understanding was that Harden being able to come back this month was the best case scenario.

"I almost landed in some lady's lap, which was kinda fun.'' -- Swish

by Sharon on Jul 4, 2006 9:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

He responded poorly to his throwing session

and will be totally shut down for a week. So probably a bit of both your scenarios.

Bring back Hammer.

by OaktownPower on Jul 4, 2006 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

"responded poorly" is vague

(I know those aren't your words)

Milton Bradley reinjured himself when he was rushed back from his oblique injury. If something similar has happened to Harden then I can understand the uproar. But there's no word of any such thing.

Was a return in July a realistic goal or just the most optimistic scenario? Is a setback of this nature unusual? I've been pessimistic about Harden's elbow from the start; I've expected the worst. It's not as if I take this news lightly. But there's so little information given (and I'm no expert), that I'd rather wait before we throw anyone under the bus.

"I almost landed in some lady's lap, which was kinda fun.'' -- Swish

by Sharon on Jul 4, 2006 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think you're right, Sharon,

that this was the scheduled "test it out, see how it is" session following a period of rest, and the result was not good so they can't go forward with what would have been the next step. So it's back to rest/examine and then maybe a future "test it out, see how it is" session...

I like Cindi. A.She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 4, 2006 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hope you are right....

but I guess just tend to be pessimistic when it comes to the A's and Harden as we dont always get the true story. I cant imagine they had him throwing unless they thought he should be ready. Why would they risk it early just to test it out.

Consider me very concerned.

Bring back Hammer.

by OaktownPower on Jul 4, 2006 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

His arm is actually hanging by a single sinew.

The A's deemed it "too alarming" to report.

"WHAT IS LARRY DAVIS WEARING?!?!?! It's not tie-dyed!!!!" ~ gigglingone

by Poppy on Jul 4, 2006 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hey, Poppy--

What sinew with you?

I like Cindi. A.She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 4, 2006 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

It reminds me of Dotel

Last year they kept telling him he didn't need TJ, blah blah. Then he shuts himself down, goes out and requests it. The doctors perform it, say he needed it and that he'll be back to normal within a year. A year later, he's nearly back... as a Yankee.

Now, this may not be an apple to apple scenario, but perhaps the A's medical brass isn't up to snuff when it comes to an array of injuries (including obliques and ligaments) and are failing their players. No one in the organization is saying he needs TJ and it definitely seems like speculation on Rotoworld's part. But the team's history with injuries doesn't make this sound promising.

by DMOAS on Jul 4, 2006 6:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Almost forgot about Dotel

Dunno if it's the same injury or what, but that's a very keen observation. Well done sir.

by znk916 on Jul 5, 2006 3:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The chilling corollary

to that observation is that Dotel has yet to pitch an inning this season.

"The worst day on a ball field is better than the best day in any office." - David Wright

by kkdaz on Jul 5, 2006 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Harden update:

Goldman, however, reiterated what he said last month: The injury will not require surgery. In fact, the injury is not one for which there is a surgical option, according to Goldman, because the ligament has not been pulled away at all.

"Part of it is strained, but it is stable and it is not operable,'' Goldman said. "There is nothing that is going to make it heal faster.''

Goldman said Harden's elbow is "certainly better than it was,'' but there is no way to tell how long it will be before the right-hander can throw full-force.

"There's nothing we can do except wait and watch,'' Goldman said. "There's nothing we're doing that is not right.''

link

"I almost landed in some lady's lap, which was kinda fun.'' -- Swish

by Sharon on Jul 5, 2006 8:55 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Forget it Sharon.

TJ is considered a miracle surgery by so many that sometimes I think ANers are rooting for Harden to go under the knife.

Can intangibles exist? Only the ones you can touch.

by salb918 on Jul 5, 2006 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

There's also the bonus of catching

Larry Davis in a lie and having reason to kill him.

"I almost landed in some lady's lap, which was kinda fun.'' -- Swish

by Sharon on Jul 5, 2006 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

What made Goldman's comments

less convincing is that as he made them, he was holding a knife in one hand and a "Diagnosing Ligaments For Dummies" book in the other.

And now you know...

...the rest of the story...

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 5, 2006 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Another non-update

from Will Carroll...

"This is just like a sprained ankle. You just can't tape an elbow." This quote from Larry Davis, head trainer for the A's to the Mercury News, is solid information. Coming on the heels of what is variously described as a "failed" or "lukewarm" throwing session--Rich Harden threw 30 pitches from flat ground at about 75 feet--it's becoming clear that Harden is not at a point where he can begin building back towards a return. The ankle comparison doesn't really work; Harden is a pitcher, and he uses his elbow for 100 or more throws at or near maximum effort. The fastest runners don't put that much stress on ankles. I've often wondered if some kind of brace could be created for the elbow, one that would enforce proper mechanics without binding the elbow and hindering the normal motion. The worry for Harden now is that the extended time off without throwing will decondition him, much as we saw with Mark Prior this spring. There's a convergence here in a couple weeks, where the deconditioning risk meets the end of conservative care. That's the point where, in the shadow of the trade deadline, Billy Beane will earn his keep.

link (sub req'd)

Can intangibles exist? Only the ones you can touch.

by salb918 on Jul 5, 2006 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

the last comment from Carroll

is the real question.

If Harden is not part of this year's future, well then what does Beane do at the deadline?

Are they going to be content with Loaiza and saarloos as the 3-4??

Are they going to be content with the current OF, particularly given that if DJ tails off then the pressure to play Swish at 1B grows?

Are they going to be content with Ellis at 2B??

Do they have enough in the farm to fill any of these holes? And, realistically, isn't there just one that can be filled?

But do we want to trade away another "Ethier"-- just to name one name-- who could be Powell or Robnett or Buck or Pennington?

Tough decisions. If Bradley comes back and plays well that will make it a whole lot easier.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Jul 5, 2006 9:11 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I meant 4-5

for Loaiza and Saarloos

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Jul 5, 2006 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

It sounds like

Harden's ligament is fraying (a strain), but the insertion points on both bones (humerus and ulna) are intact. Typically, a torn ligament peels off the insertion point like you'd pull a small branch from a bigger one (except it's connected at both ends), but in this case the ligament itself is failing while its' connection is structurally sound. Mark Prior is absolutely correct in his statement that there is no such thing as a "strained" ligament - there are only severities of a tear. They also don't heal well, as they receive little bloodflow and regeneration is slow and sometimes non-existent. This is a difficult situation, and though Goldman is a well-respected surgeon, he is not an elbow specialist. I really wonder if he is the spokesman or the diagnostician. Once upon a time TJ surgery was a radical experiment, as it required ligament replacement. I have not heard of ligament augmentation, where the exisiting ligament is left in place but strengthened. It would be less traumatic than typical TJ but serve essentially the same purpose without sacrificing the existing structure. I wonder if it is being considered, or if the A's should find a real elbow expert who could devise a way to try it.

by iceplant on Jul 6, 2006 1:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs