Zito Sucks!?! By easytoon

by easyraider on Jul 24, 2006 9:56 PM PDT Comment 42 comments

Zito is horrible.
5 innings. 7 runs. Uncle Charlie my Ass.
I know I know what you folks are saying - "Easytoon, you just said yesterday that `Zito was the best of this time.'" Well that was seven hours ago folks. A man has a right to change his mind.
We gotta trade this guy for some mid level outfield talent now. I do not want to see this guy pitch another game for the green and gold this year...Randy Jones wannabe. Billy needs to make one good move as GM. Freakin' shark jumper. Shit, I have called every one of his bad moves...after the fact you might say but that is just nitpicking.

Check the facts people and look at his first and last start - 14 runs in 6 1/3. You cannot argue that HollywoodOz.
`Yeah, westHollywoodOz.' - easycotton (aka easytoon's alternate login)

Seriously, look at game 3 of the AL playoffs against the Yanks. 1-0. Jorge Posada...please. You morons probably want to blame that loss on the Giambi non slide (I miss little G). No clutch and no grit pitcher if you ask me (today).

Billy needs to blow up Zito and keep the rest of the team. We would have won 3-0 tonight without Zito's seven runs allowed. Did you see the Swish home run tonight? He is definitely one player we need to keep (as of today anyway). He is the future of this franchise after all...and don't tell me what I said yesterday damnit. He's no DJ who sucks...I mean he should have never been sent down...no, I mean he sucks.

If this diary results in my third strike, so be it.

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haha yea, that sums it up

what can I say? it's funny cause its true.....

Bring back the Bash! Bring back the Mustache! Go A's in 2006!!!

Death To The Angels!!

by Shippee33 on Jul 24, 2006 10:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

easy to mock me

and all I can is that you guys are a classic example of Stockholm syndromw. Blez and your fanatacism for this team have made you believe in the "positive terrorists" who think they own this site-- and ignore the convenient fact that the safe is open and the money is quickly leaving the bank.

Why not stop worrying about what I will do or say and start worrying about what Billy beane is going to do to get us out of this mess?

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Jul 24, 2006 10:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Yes, easy to mock you

This was a hilariously funny send up.

by RLangford on Jul 24, 2006 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

A Note on the Meaning of Fandom

all I can is that you guys are a classic example of Stockholm syndromw. Blez and your fanatacism for this team have made you believe in the "positive terrorists" who think they own this site-- and ignore the convenient fact that the safe is open and the money is quickly leaving the bank.

--oaktoon, 25 July 2006

We all have our own paths to becoming a fan, and our ways of experiencing the journey. I will not claim one is superior to another, except that each of us has to find the way to get the most out of the experience, which by its very essence (fan derives from fanatic) is pretty irrational.

--oaktoon, 22 Jul 06

Can intangibles exist? Only the ones you can touch.

by salb918 on Jul 24, 2006 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

well, you just proved the point.

My response to others is solely a product of their incessant criticism of me. If they want to be a fan and hope for the best or deny all the problems, I have no problem with it.

But my "hostage" reference is a commentary on the Mob psychology that insists on attacking me in every conceivable fashion for daring to suggest that the emperor has no clothes. That kind of behavior has moved past any normal option of being a fan and into a different and troubling psychological state. Your willingness to ignore that convenient truth in order to try to once again label me a flip-flopper is further evidence of it.

Can't everyone see this? the team is terminally mediocre. beane has made a host of bad decisions that have helped create this condition.

Are you are all really so invested that you must not only deny this but instead spend your time attacking me for saying it? Do you really think that because i finally concluded this team can't and won't cut it, that my "inconsistency"- and who am I, by the way, but a pathetic follower of a sports team-- is somehow more newsworthy than the true condition we see every day?? And of course I'm saying it repeatedly-- I see no reason to let up on beane until he does something proactive to fix it.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Jul 24, 2006 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

OK Dude, what started in jest...

I am now being serious. I know too many people like you 'toon. You think your facts are gospel and anyone who thinks otherwise, is an idiot or a blind follower. Personally, I am a little more optimistic because I think nearly everyone on this team has either been hurt or is performing under their career averages. I do not think everyone is on the downside of their careers necessitating their removal from the team.
And Dude, trust me, I have resisted the temptation rip you for your flip-flopping since last year. But enough is enough. Can't you see the exaggerated highs and lows you ride? Really? Remember some of the good when the team is struggling and some of the negative when they are on a roll. Level out man. This not a team that needs to be blown up...or a team that is going to breeze through the playoffs.

by easyraider on Jul 24, 2006 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nico used the term "idiot"

tonight, not me.

Who cares about me? why not actually respond to the content of what am I saying? is that so hard?

Do you really have the same confidence in Beane after the signing of Loaiza? of Kendall? the trade of Ethier?

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Jul 24, 2006 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pretty tough to make those calls after the fact

And I am not convinced that none of those will pan out.

by easyraider on Jul 24, 2006 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

you're missing the point

To brush off the "highs" and "lows" is to accept mediocrity, because this year the balanced view has this team finishing at or around .500.

And do you see them getting better down the road?

I'm railing against mediocrity, my friend-- I would much rather see this team get blown up than to have them listlessly and quietly slip into permanent mediocrity. Can't you see all the warning signs?

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Jul 24, 2006 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not sure I am the one missing the point

I am saying as a fan you get too high and too low. That is not to suggest I am content with a .500 ballclub.
Can you imagine a GM get as high after a game as you and as low after another? Right, you can't. Because he would not be a GM very long...or at all.
Yes, I see this team getting better for the reasons I stated above. I expect better performances without the injuries and I do not expect everyone who has been playing below their carrer averages to continue to do that.

by easyraider on Jul 24, 2006 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

ahhh.. excuse me, but

That is the GM we've had the past 7-8 years. You think I'm bad-- Billy was infinitely worse!!

And recently he's told Blez he's calmed down-- and maybe that's not a good thing. I want the Billy who in 2002 effectively did blow his team up when they were playing bad.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Jul 24, 2006 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Enough with the martyrdom

What about all the times you've jumped on people who've expressed less enthusiasm about the roster than you have during your euphoric flashes?

You deserve to be mocked for your continuing inability to moderate your opinions. Things were never as good as you proclaimed a month ago, nor are they as bleak as you paint them now. The truth has always been somewhere in the middle.

You're smart enough to understand this truth, yet you stubbornly cling to your old ways. That's foolish.

And quite frankly your better than that.

Why yes. I am a ray of warm and fuzzy sunshine.

by grover on Jul 24, 2006 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Because the center won't hold, my friend

The middle ground is a killer in pro sports. Mediocrity which begets mediocrity.

Once I realized that they are mediocre-- and that has been a pretty clear strain in my posts these past few weeks-- then i start to consider what to do about it.

My biggest problem with Beane lately is that he's trying to have it both ways. there is no way in hell that a team with this payroll should have trade away a guy making the minum hitting nearly .400 with an OPS better than anyone on our current team? there is no way in hell that a team that prides itself on discovering market inefficiencies should have blown 21 million on the type of player that beane himself knew was the biggest risk on the planet?

So please listen to what i am saying-- we will be infinitely better off by moving toward the Marlins approach than to keep putting band-aids on all the wounds. They ain't flesh wounds anymore, people.

This debate should move way beyond whether I've been consistent or not-- I mean seriously, who gives a damn what I thought two years ago, two months ago, or two weeks ago?

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Jul 24, 2006 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I meant .340

Ethier's hitting near .340, not near .400, obviously.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Jul 24, 2006 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Truly amazing

Just a little over a week ago I posted a diary that suggested a firesale of immense (even Marlin-esque) porportions and here you are trying to convince me of the wisdom of your ideas.

Ideas which basically mimic what I've already said.

So please oaktoon, don't take the high road with me. I paved the damn thing.

Why yes. I am a ray of warm and fuzzy sunshine.

by grover on Jul 24, 2006 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Even you are guilty

Who cares if you were there first? you were, but who cares?

Can't we just check the egos at the door and start having a real discussion about this team we all claim to love.

THEY SUCK THIS YEAR.

AND BEANE'S MISTAKES DONT AUGUR WELL FOR THE FUTURE.

Are those statements really that hard to grasp-- are they so troubling no one wants to try to come to grips with it? give Grover credit-- he saw it, maybe first-- but let's start to really talk about what the hell is to be done about it.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Jul 24, 2006 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm sorry but your Ego is the one that can't

Accept a little criticism without calling the critics "terrorists".

Get a clue. Show a TINY bit of contrition and self deprecation and self doubt and you will have a chance.

Else, you will likely be hounded until you change your login name.

by The Hypocrite on Jul 24, 2006 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

God, almighty

I have been contrite and self-deprecating a helluva lot more than a lot of other people around here.

I didn't call the critics "terrorists"-- I in fact likened them to the famous incident in Stockholm where the hostages began to sympthacize with the terrorists. Please read more carefully and use your noggin.

The "terrorists"-- the ones stealing the money-- are the collective performance of a team that should have been much better than this.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Jul 24, 2006 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Unbelievable

Dude, you called people "positive terrorists" who think they own this site? Who were you talking about? Noone on the site?

This is my point, here you should say sorry, and show some contrition. It takes both sides to deescalate. If you think you are simply wronged, nothing will change. Take some responsibility.

by The Hypocrite on Jul 24, 2006 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

OK...

I'll own up to that-- I was really pissed about being called a masochist and idiot.

But the original "Stockholm Syndrome" reference is more what i wanted to say-- the bank is being robbed and no one can see it or is willing to stop it.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Jul 24, 2006 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'll answer for Grover

Okay, Oaktoon. What shall be done? Fire sale akin to the Marlins of 2005? I don't think so. Theirs was a totally different situation. Who did they trade?

Castillo
Pierre
Beckett
Lowell

(I'm sure I'm forgetting a few)

They traded guys that were expensive BUT still had perceived VALUE on the open market. For the most part, established stars. World Series heroes.

The guys you would propose we trade do not fit the Marlins mold.

Kotsay
Kendall
Loaiza
Chavez
Crosby
Blanton

(Whoever else. I don't mean to put words in your mouth)

The guys you would have us trade are either a) expensive, but with little perceived value or b) young and cheap.

None of these guys would net us a haul like the Marlins got for their "star players." I can't even imagine that a guy like Chavez, with his history would fetch much now. Sad, but true.

We gotta stick this thing out.

by Crosbino on Jul 24, 2006 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hmm..

Harden is Beckett.

Lowell is Chavez but a bit older.

crosby or Swisher could be Castillo and Pierre.

I'd say it's actually a pretty close fit, except for the fact that they actually won a WS.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Jul 24, 2006 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

OK ...

Harden IS NOT Beckett. At least not yet. He may be more talented, but nobody knows it. Wait until he gets a WS MVP before we talk about that comparison. Again, this is about perceived VALUE on the open market. And Beckett, as WS MVP, had considerably more.

Lowell is also not as good as Chavez, though he also had WS heroics on his side. Don't forget that he was a throw in.

Castillo and Pierre cannot be compared to Crosby/Swisher. They both made considerably more money than do Crosby and Swisher and, again, both were WS heroes.

The point being that (primarily because of their WS title in 03) every one of those Marlins had far more open market trade value than any of our A's. And the guys that likely DO have long term value (like Harden, Swisher, and Crosby) are so young and cheap as to make it somewhat foolish to trade them ... at least not for a Beckett-style haul in return.

The only guy I could see us trading is Crosby. And for what, I don't know.

by Crosbino on Jul 24, 2006 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not so sure.

Harden and Beckett are pretty close to perfect comps, but with Harden being cheaper for longer. Both have unquestioned stuff (though Harden has a track record, be it small, of success in the AL, which has been a stumbling block for Josh). Both have injury history, albeit different injuries.

Chavez unquestionably has more value than Lowell had, almost unimaginably more. Every GM in baseball will continue to be enamored with his potential. I mean c'mon a big budget team like the Dodgers runs Cesar Izturis out to man third.

I do agree that Castillo/Pierre are not a good comp for Swisher/Crosby, but I think the balance comes out on the other side. Honestly, do you really think teams would rather have Castillo and Pierre. Really??

We do have guys that would be hard to move: Kendall and Loaiza. But if we committed to moving them, there's no doubt that it could be done, the return might not be impressive, but let's be honest, their results are painfully unimpressive.

I don't know, maybe I'm confused, but my understanding going into this season was that it was World Series or bust. We all knew that Zito was on his way out. Big Frank is a one year guy. Guys like Payton and Kielty, and even Milton, don't seem to be in the long term plans. The future was supposed to be guys like Pennington, Buck, Herrera, one of our young catchers, and then some of last years draft. Unfortunately, this team, for whatever reason doesn't appear to be as good as we thought. Heck, as a lot of people thought. So why hold onto pieces any longer than necessary. The hard thing is deciding whether or not we may have been wrong on Blanton, Ellis, Crosby, Chavez, DJ, etc. None of these guys are particularly young. None have progressed like they were supposed to. Maybe they won't.

A kitten bats around a ball of yarn but what he's really saying is, "You know I can't knit, motherf'er." That is one foul mouthed kitten. - Mitch Hedberg

by RayRay59 on Jul 25, 2006 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks but

I'm just a slow typist. Gimme time and I'll dazzle you all.

Well...

maybe I'll dazzle some of you. ;)

Why yes. I am a ray of warm and fuzzy sunshine.

by grover on Jul 24, 2006 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Then let's start by checking your own ego

"Are those statements really that hard to grasp-- are they so troubling no one wants to try to come to grips with it?"

You're killing any hopes for a real conversation right there. You're acting as if you're the only person who is seeing the things that a lot of reasonably intelligent people have already started to talk about.

This is a serious topic you've brought up and your attitude is fucking things up. You wanna talk about blowing up the existing roster? I'm your huckleberry. But don't treat the rest of AN like they're fools. You'll get a much better dialogue going if you give then the respect they deserve.

Why yes. I am a ray of warm and fuzzy sunshine.

by grover on Jul 24, 2006 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Grover...

they're all attacking me-- please see this for what it really is. I'm not calling them fools or implying same. But when they go out of their way to attack me rather than actually respond to the substance, I am dumbfounded and then start o to press them more.

Nico called me a "masochist and idiot" tonight, and when I called him on it, baseball girl-- an "accepted" poster who obviously reflects Blez' and Nico's views on things-- then tried to go CGV on me. It was laughable for how pathetic it was.

I am simply trying to provoke a discussion about a team in crisis-- and all anyone wants to do is attack me.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Jul 24, 2006 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

They are not all attacking you

Nico's comments could have been directed towards me just as easily. Wouldn't you consider it running up a white flag to suggest trading both Zito and Chavez this year before the deadline?

'Cause I did that.

What Nico was trying to say was as a fan, we can do diddly about the state of the franchise. It's not up to you or me to try and fix things via trades or FA signings, we get to kick back and root for our team. You took it personal because you've placed yourself on a high pedestal (making yourself a target) and now you're braced for the inevitable onslaught.

Then again, maybe Nico was thinking of you when he wrote those words. What do I know? But where he was subtle and sly when taking his shot, you ran head down into the bar shooting off you six-shooter. That's not smart. That's why BBG slapped the ol' CGV reminder on ya.

Why yes. I am a ray of warm and fuzzy sunshine.

by grover on Jul 24, 2006 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh, bull

Nico did a "hit and run" and I barreled in. and my action was worse than his??

Excuse me-- this is getting more Orwellian by the minute around here.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Jul 24, 2006 11:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe he did

I'm not saying your actions were worse. Just dumber.

The closest Nico came to calling you out was to refer to "any fan". You went direct.

Thus the caution from BBG.

Why yes. I am a ray of warm and fuzzy sunshine.

by grover on Jul 24, 2006 11:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thank you, grover

I don't know what oaktoon may have said because I literally no longer read any of his comments or diaries. But if he, or anyone, took my comment as directed at them, I would have to add the "narcissistic" label to my characterization. I was replying to someone else and I wasn't talking about them either. Remarkably, not everything I say is about you, whoever "you" are.

And I stand 100% by the comment. A fan's role is to root and hope. We're tied for first place in late July--so root and hope. As if a fan waving the white flag will change the course of history anyway. What exactly would be the point? Too bad we're not the Tigers this year, and thank God we're not the Indians. And let's hope we win the next game, because that's the one we're playing.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 25, 2006 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nicely said, Nico

That's basically my exact mentality.

by Squeaky on Jul 25, 2006 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cindi says "hi," by the way,

and something about participating in an intervention to force you to change hairdressers. Sheesh--she pulls a C- in one "Conditioners and Highlights" class and suddenly she thinks she's an expert.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 25, 2006 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry, Cindi

I really like my hairdresser.

by Squeaky on Jul 25, 2006 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

No, I'M sorry--

Actually, that's really cool that you help the blind and everything--yay for community service!!! :-)

-Cindi

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Jul 25, 2006 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thing is

when I see a problem and can offer a possible solution I can't keep my big mouth shut.

Thus the content of my recent diaries.

Why yes. I am a ray of warm and fuzzy sunshine.

by grover on Jul 25, 2006 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Are we gonna get one of these posts everyday?

Everyday I check in here I see Oaktoon has diary with a different title that says the exact same thing. Everybody's entitled to an opinion but can we keep it down to one diary a week on how the A's stink? I think its clear how you feel at this point how 'bout giving it a rest for a couple days at least?

by DiegoAsFan on Jul 24, 2006 11:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

after the trade deadline ill shut up

but the next week may be pretty critical as to the future of this franchise, doncha think?

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Jul 25, 2006 12:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

and I will continue to read

everyone of them, as they are significant. If you read and deseminate the content, rather than the emotion, I find his diaries pretty damn good insight.

tdwclark

by tdwclark on Jul 25, 2006 4:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hey, some people watch reality TV.

That doesn't make reality TV 'significant'.

People also slow down to look at car wrecks, but I'd hate to think there's much significant about those.

"I smell like a meadow." - Yuniesky Betancourt

by Ozzz on Jul 25, 2006 11:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

this team sucks...

we all know it, we are all frustrated and we are all STILL the best fans in baseball...I dont care what anyone says.
These arguements are intelligent, well-thoughtout diatribes frought with emotion and passion. No beachballs, Neil Diamond or Jeter jerseys on this site...
I happen to "agree" with both sides of this dscussion: Beane has screwed up this season, or at least his moves have proven to be ineffective (at best) or just lame (at worst). And they have been expensive!!
I also am not going to kill myself over it and still trust that this club can move forward in the next few seasons...I hope.
Bottom line...we may be infighting over these topics right now, but its smart, very smart infighting...i doubt many other fan sites have these types of in-depth discussions. You folks on here know your shit a wee bit more than most, i'd wager.
Just my two-cnts at the moment.

tdwclark

by tdwclark on Jul 25, 2006 4:49 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I try to picture it like this...

We are even with the Angels, and pretty much Texas as well. Today is day 1 of the rest of the season (the new season) - only somehow the Angels will have a tougher schedule, and the Rangers will have an easier one.

Unfortunately our most talented pitcher is hurt and currently not pitching, and our franchise Third Baseman is also ailing but is trying to play...

But the Bullpen is healthy to start the season and appears to be a significant weapon... Mitlon Bradley is here and appears to be ready for this new season... DJ is down with AAA club - but has been raking down there... Frank Thomas has been able to make it through the long preseason... Crosby and Ellis need to be told that these games count now, and it's OK to start hitting like it... Antonio Perez has been getting alot of BP but had few AB's in the preseason (It's OK to play him for your ailing leader Macha - these games count now)...

I think that you get the jist... but basically here we are back at square 1 - with a little over two months to declare a victor in the Wild West. Today is a new game - and these last 2 months are the new season - BRING IT ON!!!

by SD Erik on Jul 25, 2006 5:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs