Big Frank's Future

by Crosbino on May 20, 2006 4:26 PM PDT Comment 38 comments

I'm as big a Frank Thomas fan as anyone else here, but I'm beginning to wonder, as we pass the 1/4 season mark:

How much longer can we be patient with Big Frank? How much longer can an offense that is starting to put it together be saddled with Frank's sub-.200 average batting in the heart of the order?

It's a big time risk/reward situation. He either homers, or pops out. Well, that's not fair ... he walks, too. He doesn't need to hit .300, but if he were even hitting .250 with his patience at the plate and the occasional homer, we could tolerate that.

Look at it this way: when (if) Bradley returns, we slide Swish to 1st with either DJ or Melhuse at DH. Frank could end up being the odd man out. He's still an presence at the plate, but he's becoming an increasingly easy out.

I just wonder how long we can continue to put him out there every day if he continues to hit the way he has. It's like he's a future HOFer version of what Eric Karros gave us a few years back ...

Thoughts?

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i'm with you

Give the man a shot until Bradley comes back..

but that's it.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on May 20, 2006 4:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

he reminds me a lot of

eric karros.

by Dukererer on May 20, 2006 5:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I think the A's are hamstrung

(pardon the sort-of-pun) by Bradley's injury, because if the A's had all their guys, you could slide Thomas down to 6th or so--like we've done with Crosby--and he wouldn't have as many "high profile" at-bats where his failures are so costly. That would buy us more time to see what he has left without constantly going "Dang--he cost us another crucial inning."

But with Bradley out (and Crosby not looking like the 2006 AL MVP after all), that's not much of an option. I'd give him until the ASB, personally, before contemplating a change from the original plan of "DH him 4-5 days/week".

by Nico on May 20, 2006 5:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

So...

We should keep a guy hitting below .200 (Dan Johnson) in favor of a guy who isn't much better?
It may be time to explore other options than this guy.
He seems to only get a hit when it looks like he is going to get sent down.
While we are making comparisons, how is DJ that different than Adam Piatt? PCL MVP, then nothing.

Fire Macha Yesterday!

by dboysick on May 20, 2006 5:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

DJ

Yeah, hard to argue with what we've seen so far ... but what was last year, then? How do we make sense of that?

DJ's not the longterm answer, certainly, but he is young and he does have patience ... apparently he started out like this last year in AAA, too. If he's not hitting by Mid June, I'd imagine he's be sent down when The Future is brought up.

He's just holding down Daric Barton's spot until Barton is ready. The A's aren't sweating it.

The issue is that while DJ can run (a little bit) and is willing to get a single every now and then, Frank only gets us the (very) occasional homer or a pop out to the infield. The dude doesn't even hit sac flies.

by Crosbino on May 20, 2006 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

sac flies

I don't know about that. Look at Thomas' hit chart here

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_player_hitting_chart.jsp?playerID=123245& statType=1

Most of his fly outs are long enough to score a runner from 3rd, if there was one there.

--Nebraska--

"When in analog roam, do as the analog romans do." - The Gourds

ThePastime

by Ryan Armbrust on May 20, 2006 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

DJ last year

I recall that he started slowly for a much shorter period then this (into late April) before heating up and OPSing 950+

Reed (to Carl Everett): Go f*ck a gay dinosaur, Bigot!-Lookout Landing

by ohad on May 20, 2006 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

now teams are pitching around Chavvy

to get to Thomas. That's not what he was signed for.

by OaklandSi on May 20, 2006 7:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Good point, OaklandSi--

Thomas was signed to make teams pitch to Chavy. Now they're walking Chavy to get to Thomas. Not good.

As for "sac flies," Thomas hits plenty of those. Unfortunately, most of the time he hits one, there isn't a runner at 3rd and less than two outs.

by Nico on May 20, 2006 7:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thinking the same...

I'm thinking the same thing. The Big Hurt hits like his foot still hurts. I noticed that compared to his old self, this version is picking his front foot back up slightly and turns it after he plants it originally. I have never seen his bat drag through the zone so slowly. It's been either pop up, strike out, or get a lucky homer. He may well be done as a regular DHfor us.

by AAAAAces on May 21, 2006 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

sign barry haha

=more fans

by greekpride08 on May 20, 2006 8:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

DJ's sophomoring, Frank's slumping.

I'd be surprised if either doesn't bust out of their rut soon. Both players are just too good to keep Erstading it for the entire season.

"I smell like a meadow." - Yuniesky Betancourt

by Ozzz on May 20, 2006 10:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Erstading -- Brilliant!

Erstading: the act of hitting far, far worse than chould possibly warrant a regular spot on a major league roster

Let's try some more!

Byrnesing: as in "He really Byrnesed the hell out of that routine fly ball ... I mean, triple." or "He really Byrnesed that one! Moron didn't even touch home plate!"

by Crosbino on May 20, 2006 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

AJ Pierzynski got Barretted today.

Right in the jaw.

"I smell like a meadow." - Yuniesky Betancourt

by Ozzz on May 21, 2006 1:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Frank = Dave Kingman

its either a strikeout, infield popup, walk, or home run. its all or nothing with frank.

if we keep him in the lineup, then move him down to the 7th hole, he is killing too many rallies with Chavy and Swisher on base.

Frank also seems to still be injured a little bit, as he never puts any weight or pressure on that back leg, and has become an "arm swinger".

he needs a rest.

at this point, he is just stealing at bats from Dan Johnson, and more importanly, Melhuse.

I wouldn't mind if Frank got released, which would enable us to bring up a 3rd catcher so that we could DH Melhuse full time.

hell, would even prefer more at bats for Kielty right now than frank.

GangGreen23

by GangGreen23 on May 20, 2006 10:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Released?

Not yet ... he may not be good, but he's not bad enough to be released.

Now, as a part time player/pinch hitter ...

by Crosbino on May 20, 2006 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

the comparison is unfair to Kingman

If FT could produce the way Kingman did the A's would DEFINITELY win the west this year. Kingy had 35 HRs in his last season (I'm pretty sure that's a record for a final season).

Frank has been disappointing, for sure. He seems to be guessing a lot, and lunging for balls he's fooled on. The bat speed seems to have slowed, too. I'm not sure he's going to be better than Karros was, but there's got to be a deadline for the production to begin.

by Brian in 317 on May 21, 2006 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

All his swings look desperate.

Sometimes he happens to connect. Not often (or productively) enough.

"If we wanted you to be happy, we'd authorize you to be happy and we'd issue happiness to you." ~~ my boss

by Poppy on May 21, 2006 9:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

He looks like

he's trying not to single. Forget the HRs, aim to get the batting average up to .250, is my advice. When he does that, the HRs will still come, along with enough other hits to make him useful.

by Nico on May 21, 2006 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

But then, when he does single (or even walk), I think Great, now he's clogging the basepaths in front of Crosby/Payton/whoever else comes up behind him with speed.

Don't mind me, I'm just in a crabby, crabby mood...

"If we wanted you to be happy, we'd authorize you to be happy and we'd issue happiness to you." ~~ my boss

by Poppy on May 21, 2006 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, and I think of liquid plumber or

draino...or even a plunger

the great playoff miss of 2004 followed by the good try of 2005 But will 2006 do the trix?

by ak_A on May 21, 2006 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

if you have thoughts like that,

why think at all?

I own too many darn shoes!

by californiagirl on May 21, 2006 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Frank has the best leadoff stats on hte team

http://www.athleticsnation.com/story/2006/5/6/21542/27514

Let him hit headoff. If/when he gets on base, replace him with someone faster like Scoot, who will do fine in the leadoff spot the next time around the order anyway. You can substitute Scoot into the 1 hole. You can't substitute him into the 4 hole. Plan ahead and play Frank where he has the superior stats, which is batting leadoff.

by Bambi on May 21, 2006 10:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Umm, no, I don't think that'll work.

Doesn't seem like a very sustainable lineup strategy. When he's sitting the day, it might work to pinch-hit him into a leadoff spot, but don't start him there just to sub for him his next AB.

I really do think he needs to change his approach. He's been looking a little better as of late, hitting a few line drives here and there, but he's got to stop lifting everything. A better average, as Nico said, will bring more homeruns as his swing will be better overall fundamentally.

by RenoTy on May 21, 2006 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think that makes

about as much sense as pinch-hitting Scutaro for Swisher in the 9th inning of a close game, because Scutaro has "a track record of being more clutch". And no, I wouldn't pinch-hit Scutaro for Swisher.

by Nico on May 21, 2006 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Perceived track record

and statistics aren't the same thing.

by Reg on May 21, 2006 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

All or nothing

I can't think of another player who swings for the fences every time like Frank Thomas has this year, it's like all he does is litteraly try and hit a hommer every time he's up at bat. Didn't anyone in little league teach him not to do that?? I agree with the post maybe it's time for FT to move to a late inning situational pinch hitting role.

by enz on May 21, 2006 12:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

no way!

frank thomas needs to stay just where he is. even hitting under 200 he's going to have 20+ homeruns, and 80+ rbi's. we don't have any possible replacements that have proven that they can do the same over the course of a full season.

and i don't buy that anyone is pitching around chavy to get to frank. as the season goes on and the games and at bats become more and more important, no one is going to happily put guys on base to face a guy that is a legitimate hr threat every single time. no matter his stats, pitchers will always be afraid of him.

Zito: You ever think about the space time continuum?
Huddy: Uh... no.

by mendelbob on May 21, 2006 4:08 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Mendelbob

I like the way you think. I'm fine with Big Frank.

by Reg on May 21, 2006 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Big Pop Up

experiment needs to end. Guy's finished. Hall of Famer in my books, loved seeing him in an A's uniform and hitting a few home runs, but this team is looking more like the Rivercats than anything else right now and Frank isn't doing much to dispel that. Let someone like Kielty go out there and at least keep an on base percentage over .320. It's not much but it's an imporovement.

by walk off bunt on May 21, 2006 8:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Frank's DH days are already the good ole days

He is now a PH at best

When a pitcher is ALREADY on the ropes in the late innings Frank can come off the bench for the obligatory SacFly/HR. Great for the bench and occaisional DH (40%?)

The A's offense will not compete against playoffs grade pitching this season without an injection of a legit everyday hitter.

Predictably the A's will watch just such a player soon go to a playoffs rival that probably will eliminate us.

Carlos Lee is that player.

This non-action should protect our 2nd millennium tradition of one and out intact.

If the A's do pick up Lee ($10 million) they could free JP ($4 million). This also keeps Lee off those other playoff teams; an admirable action all by itself.

Don't get me wrong, Lee would cost prospect(s), but prospects we could recoup when Lee leaves.

(2007 = $12 million option year)

A's Defense?

OF = Kotsay - MB - Lee (#4=Kielty)
1B = Swisher
DH/PH = Melhuse/Kielty/Thomas

JP & DJ are sporadic thus far and historically cannot be expected to mimic Lee's 200 runs/RBIs per season anytime soon.

DJ straightens it out at Sac with a defensive catcher coming up to free up Melhuse our part time (40%?) DH.

Let's go Free-mont! <stomps feet> So sorry, please excuse my clumsiness Mr Wolff, certainly, I'll help you down the stairs. <checks for witnesses>

by A s Eh on May 21, 2006 8:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

But are you willing to give up

Barton? I think any deal would involve that guy.

"74Oakland A's - Best Team Ever" - Homer Simpson

by secret ASian man on May 21, 2006 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm think he might get a deal done but there

are other prospects that would interest a young team with playoffs sights aimed over the next 2-6 years.

The new A's owners can build stadiums, villages, and 100 houses (for Fremont?) but will these multi-billionaires ever build a team that can compete to win it all?

Regarding Barton.
Is Barton a power hitter?
Where is it?
When is it?
When he turns 27-28 years old?
Isn't he smallish?

Will Barton still be an A when he has something going beyound a high on base average or will he be baseball's first career leadoff batting DH?
Don't we have a lineup of this type of hitter already?
How many times must we "re-learn" high on base percent means doodoo (high L.O.B.) without slugging?

Isn't our offense feast or famine with these OBP guys? ...with the feasts coming against weak sister opponents and the famines coming when a playoff team squares up against us?
<Oops! Change that to a .500 team.>

With Carlos Lee (or similar) there is a chance the A's can win now. If they win now there is a chance the A's and Lee can write new paper. If that is possible I'd be all over it. If it isn't possible we have a $12 million option for '07 and can regain a prospect(s) with a highest bidder approach around mid season. Mid season '07 might be when our younger players "blossom" into hitters, Kotsay-Chavez-Swisher excepted.

Carlos Lee = 200 runs/rbis per year
Daric Barton = ??? per year at the MLB level?

Do it BB

"The lineup needs Carlos Lee replacing JP. Frank is a great PH and Melhuse should DH in 40% of the A's games..."

by A s Eh on May 21, 2006 10:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who doesn't love Carlos Lee?

But the Brewers fancy themselves contenders, and they want to resign this guy. Let's say, for instance, that the Brew Crew is out of it soon. Let's also assume that Lee tells them he won't resign in Milwaukee. So we're talking then about a late season rental, like Durham or Guillen or Dye, except we'd have a difficult (impossible) time resigning the guy after the season ends.

So ... what does a summer rental cost us? Probably a lot, and I can only see it being worth it if we start playing better and if Lee represents that ONE guy (like Dye in 01) that we need to put us over the top.

But there's a lot of variables in this scenario ... we need to give it time to play out.

by Crosbino on May 21, 2006 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

We gave it time to play out in

2000
2001
2002
2003
2004
2005

lots of time.

"The lineup needs Carlos Lee replacing JP. Frank is a great PH and Melhuse should DH in 40% of the A's games..."

by A s Eh on May 21, 2006 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well ... perhaps

But what's done is done now. I was just laying out how we could get him today. However, I think considering the Brewers are budding contenders and that the Yanks and Sox could easily overbid for him, our chances of getting Lee are exceedingly unlikely.

by Crosbino on May 21, 2006 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Esp if we don't try and sit pat when he goes

elsewhere.

About two weeks ago BrewCrew were lined up to talk contract to Carlos. We will know any day now if he is re-signing or wants to go elsewhere.

The A's should try for him if he is available. Even if we end up outbidded we might be able to make another rival team pay more than planned and that can have positive after effects on competition for other A's trades/deals.

"The lineup needs Carlos Lee replacing JP. Frank is a great PH and Melhuse should DH in 40% of the A's games..."

by A s Eh on May 22, 2006 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't Give Up Just Yet

If anyone is expecting the Thomas of old or even 50 percent of that than good luck. We all knew going in his best days were behind him. It was a extremely low-risk deal for Oakland.

Based on what I have seen Frank has pretty much decided that hitting HR's is probably his best bet. He is missing mistake pitches that he used to kill. Gone is that gap hitter of yesteryear.

That being said I am still willing to give the guy half a season before I declare his skills totally DOA. I agree that we need to get Bradley back and if Crosby can start producing it will allow Thomas to hit further down in the order.

IMHO DJ's struggles are hurting the team more.

by RudiFan on May 22, 2006 7:53 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs