The Matt Watson Mistake-Has Beane Become Lazy?
By now we all know the A's granted Watson his release to join the Chiba Lotte Marines in Japan. On the surface this doesn't look like a big deal. A career minor leaguer gets released to extend his fading baseball career in the Land of Rising Sun. But I believe there are issues involved with this move that are troubling for the A's organization and need to be discussed.
Billy Taylor, Matt Stairs, Izzy, Mike Gallego, Rich Becker, John Jaha. There were others, but none of them were superstars. However Billy discovered a use for them. He outsmarted GM's and MLB in general with these misfits and outcasts. Beane and Co. assessed that some would be great closers and others awesome OBP machines. Plus, if sprinkled in some inexperienced hotshot youngsters like G and Eric and Ramon and Miggy along with some ass-kicking pitching like "The Big Three"....well now, playoffs here we come! All on a shoestring budget. It's what people write books about!
But 2001 happened. Our beloved A's were once again KO'd prematurely from the playoffs and Billy showed the first crack of discontentment with how he was winning and fooling MLB. This shift from "winning while fooling everyone on the cheap" is growing and its not making things better but worse. The A's are no longer winning like the late 90's and early 00's and they aren't fooling anyone. Are the A's spending like the Bosox and Yankees? Of course not. But I do believe Billy has become disinterested with building his teams. He is making too many mistakes. One could say, Beane is off his game.
No longer do we see Beane grabbing that "player-to-be-named-later". Holding out for the "...and cash considerations" for that pickup in August. And we don't see Beane giving guys like Matt Watson a chance. Sure Watson was given his "cup of coffee" last year. Sure he didn't have a great ST this year. But all Watson has done, year-in year-out was rake in the minors and play solid defense. In 1998, 1999, 2000 and maybe in 2001 Watson WOULD have been the starting LF in Oakland.
In 2006 we have Payton at 4 million who can't hit a breaking ball if his life depended on. We have Booby K who isn't near as funny without the hair at 1 million. And we have Perez who after 20 ABs final has a hit but plays defense like it's a disease. And finally, and this is where Billy truly lost his way, when the A's traded Lehr and Cruz for Ginter. Presently, Ginter continues to play and "offer veteran leadership" in The Sac at 3 Million dollars. Folks, that's 8 millions misspent by my account (that's not counting Perez's peanuts he "earns").
I say Watson's release is simply just not about giving a chance to a career minor leaguer but rather an opportunity lost to show MLB that the A's are a special organiztion that can see the gifts of a player, plug said player in a role where he'II succeed and as a TEAM win more ballgames than their highpriced competition. And, who knows, maybe win the WS.
In conclusion, I still believe. I still believe in Billy. I still believe Billy is God in a pair of khakis shorts purchased at The Gap for $29.99. I just think, with Watson anyway, he just blew a save.
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98 comments
Comments
Agree 100%
I don't think anyone expects Beane to be perfect- but the expectations created in "Moneyball" are pretty high.
by greenmachine on May 15, 2006 9:52 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
some perspective
by oaktownredneck on May 15, 2006 10:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Huh??
Can he play over Kotsay and his stellar Cf defense? Of course not.
Can he play over Bradley-- when healthy-- and his potential for a 850+ OPS season? No.
Over Swisher in the middle of a breakout year? No.
sure Payton and Kielty aren't great shakes, but did Watson ever have the kind of stretch that Payton did for 5-6 weeks last year? No.
Does he have the upside of Robnett, Herrera and Buck? No.
Beane recognized that this guy is a marginal benchwarmer-- for the A's or most other teams in the bigs. Let him go to Japan with a chance to play. If in a couple of years he shows greater ability someone will give him a chance.
by oaktoon on May 15, 2006 10:09 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That's more like it..
You can rake AAA pitching, Japan should treat you well.
by rook on May 15, 2006 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Piatt
by rubin sierra on May 15, 2006 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Piatt was a ST invitee
by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He sold me a lawn mower at Hope Depot last week
Saki bombs away
by rook on May 15, 2006 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think i have a CC to that place somewhere
by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You made me laugh-spit sandwich on my monitor
by McFood on May 15, 2006 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jose Ortiz
by F171615 on May 15, 2006 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couple of great names
It's too bad Watson couldn't help the big club in this regard. Signing in Japan really does state where you are in MLB: Nowhere to be seen and not on anybody's roadmap (which really is a sad state of affairs give the Royals/DRays/Marlin's rosters).
by rook on May 15, 2006 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree,
by Captain on May 15, 2006 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
71 MLB ABs-
Come on, use your head.
by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They also gave him an extended look
Even if Watson could match Payton with the bat - which is a pretty big if - Payton would still be twice the player he is, because he is one of the better defensive OF around.
by devo on May 15, 2006 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
JayPay is leaving soon or Sept..
- MB has bad wheels
- Kotsay has a bad back
- Kielty is #4-5 at best
- A's offense hums like a machine with Swisher at 1B.
I like the solid help angle and vote for Tori Hunter.
JP can be relocated.
by Billy Ball 2005 on May 15, 2006 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right on, Oaktoon
by AlBowe on May 15, 2006 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Give this man a prize.
by sf drift king on May 15, 2006 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ample chance?
Shoot, oaktoon. It took you more than 48 AB to figure out that Crosby shouldn't be batting in the #3 hole this year!
by grover on May 15, 2006 9:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I approach this question from a different angle
I think the biggest manufactured, not-quite-adherent-to-reality storyline was the "Billy Beane, innovatin'-whirligig, Henry Ford in shorts and flipflops, celebrity MBA commencement speaker" myth.
Don't get me wrong: I think Beane's a supersmart guy, and one of the best GMs in the business.
But he's still a creature of habit in the same way that all baseball men are, he's still limited in the sheer number of innovations and off-the-wall moves by the quotidian exigencies of running a ballclub, and he's never been the radical innovator of Lewis's fable.
(Lewis, BTW, and this is not a criticism, essentially writes the same story with every book [which all successful authors do]: a fun-loving cerebral rebel upsets the old order and succeeds against the prejudices of the old guard, thereby ushering in a new era that sweeps the hero aside once the new prejudices supplant the old as the social order.)
by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 10:12 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Monkeyball,
Beane, by virtue of Moneyball, was shown to be this innovative wizard. There was "The Moneyball Philosophy" and this approach was beating higher salaried teams "at their own game". But if all that is true:
- beane doesn't trade for Ginter at 6 million over 2 years
-beane doesn't trade for Kendall at 10-11 per
-beane doesn't sign Loza for 21 mil X 3 yrs.
-beane doesnt' does sign Rhodes @ 12 million X 3 yrs.
-beane doesnt't trade for payton with 1 yr remaining at 4 million.
-he doesn't sign Booby K at 800K prior to arbie last yrs.and then gives him 1 mil AFTER a subpar yr.
Where is "the philosophy" in these moves.
Listen, posters like ohad and oaktoon want to debate Watson's skill set but that really isn't the point here. But if the moneyball philosophy was still afloat, then a guy like Watson needed to be in Oakland AND been given a chance. Especially before Booby, Payton, Big Frank (and I liked that signing) and maybe even Johnson.
by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, you did hook your argument on Watson
In fact, a complete application of that philosophy might have resulted in the same conclusion for Watson -- no real MLB time with the A's.
Watson, to me, is more representative of a different Beane problem: his absoilute refusal to DL a player until he's already missed significant time. I don't think Watson should have been starting for the A's, or necessarily even their 4th or 5th Of -- but he sure could have been useful occasionally when Kotsay in particular should have been DLed.
by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well.
by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's look at the totality of this
Gant
Justice
Halama
Redman
Rhodes
Koch
Foulke
Miller
Kotsay
Payton
Lidle
Jaha
Lilly
Kielty
Hatteberg
Dye
And several more I think I've forgotten.
The point is you pays you money and takes your chances. Lidle worked out brilliantly; so did Koch in that he pitched well until the end and then landed Foulke.
Miller was an OK stopgap after Beane essentially unloaded Long in the Hernandez for Kotsay deal. If he had never traded Ramon, who exactly would be playing CF right now?? Watson??
The biggest mistake was obviously Rhodes, with redman as a mediocre acquisition. He resolved it with Kendall-- and trhings haven't worked out all that hot.
Lilly was of amrginal value to this team with th Big Three in place and Harden comingon strong-- so he took a gamble on Kielty. It didn't pay off.
Payton was a prefectly good acquisition given Byrnes' tailing off-- in that it gave us depth in a weak place on the team given Kotsay's back, Swisher's inexpereience, and Kielty's limitations.
One can criticize him for the Dye signing... the White Sox appear to have been the fortunate ones in that deal.
As for the Ginter deal, do you think Cruz or Lehr would have played any significant rolw on this tema either last year or this? Maybe Lehr is one of the many bullpen subs, but that's it.
Ginter flamed out-- could anyone have seen that coming?? It was a gamble for depth just like Perez that hasn't worked out.
But I don't think he's changed his philosphy as much as the circumstances of the team have changed. Way back when he had to put bargain absement players in key roles-- now he can afford to spend ina few places. But as with anyone else who spends, some hit and some miss. In 2001-02, thje fates coincided to give him three excellent pitchers and several very good position players (including two who won mVPs while here) for virtually nothing. Such a development rarely occurs in any organization-- we should be thankful it did here at least once and, with Haren, Blanton, Harden, crosby and swisher all still making comparatively little, maybe again.
by oaktoon on May 15, 2006 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beane did say-
Also, based on most of your points, Beane has been swinging-and-missing vs solid hits lately.
Not only did the big 3 make him look smarter, but maybe DePo too!
by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Based on your examples...
Ginter appealed to Beane prob. d/t his power potential. He played well in Milwaukee prior to the trade his defense was to be under the hands of Wash.
Kendall had a great resume, BFHD offensively he sucked but his intangibles haven't gone unnoticed. Essentially we were getting rid of Redman and Rhodes.
Rhodes was the closer experiment that failed, bottom line.
Kietly represents insurance but Beane, I believe doesn't like arby so it was a "logical" progression of salary.
Payton will be a good role player, able to help great teams but may not make good teams great. Oh well.
One time I heard Beane saying that essentially all trades are crapshoots and hopefully you get lucky. He offers a sophisticated approach but that doesn't guarantee anything. Overall, he's been luckier than most.
by Gerard on May 15, 2006 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I looked it up ...
Factitious (adj.)
- Produced artificially rather than by a natural process.
- Lacking authenticity or genuineness; sham: speculators responsible for the factitious value of some stocks.
by rubin sierra on May 15, 2006 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
your next assignment
by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and "whirligig"
by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and binturon" and frugiverous
by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
questionmark???
-the crap gm's have to deal with
Factitious I might have also figured out from the context, but then I stumbled--did you mean to say fictitious? Or facetious?
by rubin sierra on May 15, 2006 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting, then,...
...that Lewis isn't fond of the life and ministry of Jesus. In fact, Lewis seems to be hostile -- in his mocking-like manner -- to Christians throughout two of his pieces of work that I have read.
by LowcountryJoe on May 17, 2006 4:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Watson Schmatson
by ohad on May 15, 2006 10:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Billy Beane's made more than enough
by walk off bunt on May 15, 2006 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Watson was garbage in Winter ball too:
I wish him well, but, he was never going to do it here in Oakland.
by saint on May 15, 2006 10:21 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Billy weakness on paper
No one knows what Watson would have become, but the farm production has been very good overall, and I don't see any other MLB teams chomping to get Watson. Maybe a way to approach this question is to examine if any of our AAA players who left as free-agents end up being productive MLBers (I don't count being a Royals player right now).
As for Beane's bad choices of free-agents, maybe they were bad flukes given limited choices ont he market, but it's getting to be an annoyingly consistent fluke.
by Apricot on May 15, 2006 10:33 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
We all now how this works,
Given the right situation there's plenty of teams that could've used a guy like Watson.
by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
true but
by Apricot on May 15, 2006 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doubtful,
I mean, it's not like Watson is worth it or anything. I say Beane should've released him after ST.
by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
by salb918 on May 15, 2006 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
HAHA, Millar set that up...
Plus, Watson doesn't=Millar.
by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he should have dressed......
by jjham15 on May 15, 2006 10:42 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
by Blue Jays as well
by rubin sierra on May 15, 2006 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not even sure where to begin with this...
- Weaver was making like 5-6 MM at the time, and is currently on his third team post this trade- that says something...he is mediocore at best with an inflated salary.
- Pena is somwhere in the Yanks Farm system (Ohio, maybe)- he never fit in with the A's, I actually remember Beane saying something publically about his hitting approach and how he will not listen. Hatty did just fine there for a few years, as I recall.
- Bonderman was 19 at the time, and yes he is good now, but Lilly gave us what we needed while he was here, and we needed someone who could help the Huddy/Mulder/Zito that year, not 3 years from now. Do you remember he owned the Sox for a series?
The point is, let's not just look at names but situations.
by rook on May 15, 2006 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well put.
by EastCoastA on May 15, 2006 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Double that....
by Masaryk on May 15, 2006 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Thought We'd Hear From You
He'll be gone but not forgotten from AN lore, mostly thanks to you.
by Gerard on May 15, 2006 10:42 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey G good to hear from you.
by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Age
In recent years, Crosby, Swisher, Dan Johnson, Watson, Jason Grabowski, Graham Koonce, and Mike Edwards all put up similar numbers in Sacramento. The difference? Crosby and Swisher were 23, Johnson was 25, and the others were all at least 26.
And the results have been to form. Crosby and Swisher are becoming stars as they continue to develop as hitters. Johnson has been pretty good, but is still considered to have a low ceiling. Grabowski (whose numbers were a little better than Watson) and Edwards (a little worse, but he can play 3B) have both gotten playing time with the Dodgers, and haven't hit at all. Koonce (the oldest) and Watson haven't had much of a chance, with the A's or anyone else, but if they were, the results would almost surely be the same.
by andeux on May 15, 2006 10:46 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Age as Future Projections
by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beane's
Beane doesn't need to that this year because we have major league talent at the major league level. Despite Watson's (or Bynum's, or Koonce's) numbers, I would rather have a Kielty or Payton who have statistically shown their ability to play hit major league pitching while playing almost every day. Watson's departure isn't anything to cry about - we should be happy that we've assembled a team this year that can do without the him.
by salb918 on May 15, 2006 10:55 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
exactly
You pay for success...and then search for guys for cheap to fill the holes. Do we overpay guys? Yes, but that is because we swung and missed on Kielty, Rhodes, and Ginter...all three of those guys, if you take what we hoped they would give us, would have been true bargains. It's not like we got them because we want to pay for players now.
In addition, I find it ironic that we point to Geronimo Berroa and Billy Taylor as examples of guys that we relied on off the scrap heap. HOW many games did we win those years?
It's easy to stick an average player in the middle of a terrible lineup and watch him produce ML average stats. Yes, Billy Taylor had some good years-but the reason that we don't have Billy Taylor right now is because we have this Street fellow. Who knows, if Street wasn't here, maybe Witasick would be the Billy Taylor.
The reason we aren't having these huge shocker surprise stars is because our team is good, now. You guys need to be careful what you wish for with guys like Watson-if you want AAAA players roaming the outfield, that is fine...but don't be negative in the game threads when we lose 75% of the games.
by SeanR on May 15, 2006 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
careful with that axe, Eugene
In fact, it's when Beane has paid for previous success that he's generally been burned.
And, c'mon, no one's advocating that we should have kept Billy T -- he's used as an example of Beane's true genius in taking an essentially replacement-level player, inserting him in a meaningless but statistically and financially overvalued position, and thereby turning him into a tradeable commodity.
And, again, please point to anyone actually advocating "Matt Watson should have been our starting LF for the past three years."
by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
one problem
Now, did I agree with those moves at the time? No, I didn't agree with any of them. But that is what he was trying to do, and I respect his willingness to go out and try.
The real problem I have with your argument, though, is that you guys keep making your claims and then you duck for cover whenever someone brings in Watson or Billy Taylor or any of them. You say that no one has said he should be a starting outfielder...okay, so, if you admit that, does that mean that we're simply arguing over what Beane is doing with the 24th and 25th men on the roster?
Because the last time I checked, we're giving one helluva chance to Randy Keisler to show that he's not washed up, Matt Roney to show people that he exists, etc...
I think the only argument you can make, really, is that Beane shouldn't be trading for guys like Jay Payton, because they aren't HUGE improvements over replacement level players. However, Payton was huge insurance against Kotsay's balky back. Watson wasn't going to play CF, and we didn't have Bradley at the time.
Again, I know you'll say that this argument isn't about Watson...but it has to be about someone. The simple truth is that we have 25 spots on a roster, and someone is going to have to convince us how Watson or whichever other AAAA player you all love can fit on (Where's the Scott McClain diary?)...
by SeanR on May 15, 2006 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
good points, those
Where this intersects specifically with, say, Kielty and Payton is that these guys, by dint of the injuries and unavailability of regulars and Beane's refusal to call up AAA/AAAA reinforcements, are pressed into regular usage outside of the specific conditions for which they were acquired/projected to succeed. I'll grant that Watson or McClain, projected over the course of 162 games, would likely be outperformed by Kielty or Payton; but when Kielty's starting consecutive games against both LHSPs and RHSPs, then you're basically negating the advantage for which he was acquired.
Payton's acquisition, as you point out, was a smart and necessary move -- and one that I agreed with. Payton, like Kotsay, has most if not all of his value tied up in his defense. But when you have Payton and Kotsay both starting regularly at the same time, then you're going to have pretty meh offense from your OF; and when you have Payton, Kotsay, and Kielty all starting at once (esp if Kielty's playing against a RHSP), you're going to downgrade that to meh -- and take a huge hit on defense with Kielty.
Beane makes, I think, excellent decisions on trade acquisitions; but the fitting together of the components always depends on everything going perfectly.
by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
although, in all honesty, I'm not sure I buy that it is Beane's fault. I'm starting to really wonder about the abilities of our trainers.
by SeanR on May 15, 2006 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, that's two separate issues ...
As to the first, though, Beane has definitely identified fragile players as an undervalued commodity -- he's stocked the roster with achy-breakies. And if it is the trainers' fault in some way, I'd think that the ultimate responsibility would still trickle up the chain of command. Like if, in a totally hypothetical way, one had an incompetent Secretary of Defense (and I do mean "defense" as in outfield and infield defense), one would still hold the President, I mean, GM responsible, right?
by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hypothetically speaking?
by devo on May 15, 2006 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and I think you're just identified ...
by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sly, crafty monkey!
by Checkswing HR on May 16, 2006 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
not crafty enough ...
by monkeyball on May 16, 2006 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you really think we'd get that much value ...
by devo on May 15, 2006 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, that depends ...
Bradley's in the typical Beane holding pattern of "day to day" ... "almost back" ... "three more days" ... and then suddenly he's been out 2 weeks and won't be available for another 2.
And when he does come back, he's not at 100% capacity, so that (a) he's underperforming not only his own projection but likely even that of the scrub behind him, and (b) by playing at less than full capacity he's also likelier to reinjure his original debility and/or suffer a cascade/compensation injury.
So, to directly answer your question, no, if Bradley or Chavvy is going to be out for 3-5 games and no more, it isn't worth DLing either.
But when has a Beane projection of "only out for 3-5 games" ever held true? It's a running joke at AN that "day to day" = "unavailable for 5 games" and so on (I generally multiply the team's stated estimate by 3x) mostly because it's true.
As I said in another diary on this matter, Beane's refusal to DL a player who clearly won't be able to play at full capacity for 7+ games is akin to refusing to risk paying for 2 extra days of your rental car when your own ride may be out of the shop early,and choosing to walk the 20 miles to work in the rain.
by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
right
by SeanR on May 15, 2006 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
which I TOTALLY can't figure out!
It just doesn't make any sense.
by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly, plus-
by bigelephant on May 16, 2006 5:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How are we 'taking a chance' with Karsay?
by devo on May 16, 2006 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
let's watch him pitch 1st
by bigelephant on May 16, 2006 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's no question that he can pitch ...
If he's not healthy, he won't be in a position to hurt them team.
While he's certainly far from a lock there also isn't any risk, since there is nothing to lose.
Since he made his last start in 1999 through the end of 2004, he posted a 3.10. He was never healthy in 2005 and struggled through ~20 terrible innings but he's not very old and he's got a great track record. He's also been absolutely dominant in AAA so far this season.
by devo on May 16, 2006 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now, if we use him only
by McFood on May 16, 2006 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The huge problem with Moneyball
But, honestly, if it were JUST about putting together a team (not running a baseball organization, which I won't even pretend to be able to do) do any of you guys really think you couldn't do much of the same? I mean strictly on these fringe moves and such. My point is Billy Beane's genius is in developing and acquiring a lot of YOUNG, low priced talent. The other fringe and big moves he's proven to not be particularly adept at. Finding a guy who can put up the offensive equivalents to Bobby Kielty or Jay Payton or Marco Scutaro is EASY. Very, very easy.
Which brings me back to my point. Moneyball implies that Billy Beane sees something everybody else is missing in these transactions. That's simply not the case. When you get a Kirk Saarloos, you get an averagish innings eater. Every team in the major leagues knows this, and any dedicated fan with an internet connection knows this as well. And it's been proven by his performance. When you get a Marco Scutaro, you get a middling infield backup. Again, every team in the majors and every fan with a computer can figure this out, and no amount of scientific data plots that Beane may or may not possess really changes that. Ditto Joe Kennedy. Ditto Jason Kendall. Ditto Esteban Loaiza. Ditto Chad Gaudin. Ditto Randy Keisler and Steve Karsay. Good moves will be made and bad moves will be made. Extending Kielty was bad, getting Loaiza wasn't necessarily so, and how they work out isn't exactly the GM's fault. But the idea that Billy must know something we don't if he's going and getting Esteban Loaiza which on the surface looks weird, is simply ridiculous. He doesn't. He thought he was getting a fine innings eater with quality strikeout rates. My connection to mlb.com or my copy of Baseball Prospectus could have told me the same thing. Where Beane separates himself, and does so very, very well, is in the arena of player development and keeping the farm stocked. Every GM has bad drafts and such, but when you can bring Bobby Crosby, Rich Harden, Barry Zito, Eric Chavez, Dan Johnson, Nick Swisher, Huston Street, and Joe Blanton (among others) out of your collective drafts and bring in other young talents like Dan Haren, Daric Barton, and Mark Ellis you're doing a very good job relative to the other GM's of putting a team on the field. THAT is where Beane knows something we don't, that's where he makes his reputation as a shark. Not for signing the likes of Jay Payton, Bobby Kielty, and Esteban Loaiza to deals for more than they're worth.
by walk off bunt on May 15, 2006 11:57 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
awesome post.
by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Slightly different take...
I think another possible innovation is the use of longer term planning especially when it comes to the minor leagues. You look at the current team and Swisher, Blanton, Harden, Johnson, Street and Crosby came out of our system and seemed ready just in time to replace players whose contracts were finished or would need to be traded. There was some luck in that, but I am sure there was some planning also. And, now the system is depleted. But, most of the team is all locked up for the next 3 years or so. And, those that are not, are in relatively inexpensive places to replace mostly backups. And, it can be fixed using the next paragraph.
I think the other place Beane has innovated is realizing that in the draft and minor leagues it is really a crap shoot as to who will pan out into a major league player. He uses all the tools described in Moneyball to try to skew the odds in his favor a little more, but in the end is hard to know who will succeed. So, you get as many dice rolls as you can, and draft 10 high school pitchers, knowing if you are lucky 2 will make the team in 4 years. Or, you get 2 possible starters and 2 relievers for 2 of your best pitchers knowing you only need 1 of each and anything else would be bonus (well and Daric Barton).
I think where we see Beane is human is in the free agent market, and when things go wrong. In the free agent market I would argue everyone is over priced in the sense that teams pay more for the fact that a player is a "proven" quantity. And, you see Beane fail because he gets one shot at a player. Based on past performance you would think a player would do OK, but in the end injuries or random baseball crap can make a deal bad. It does not help that Beane is typically shooting for the mid-level players here where regression looks real bad, playing to form is decent, and upside is unlikely. The successful deals are the ones where the risk is low and upside high. Hopefully we will see that with Thomas.
Of course when things go wrong and you have to make a move it is hard to succeed. When you need to replace Foulke who you thought you could sign you get Rhodes. When you need to unload Rhodes and Redman you get Kendall although Kendall should have been a little better, etc. etc.
I don't know if this is anything profound, but I hope it contributed ot the discussion.
by Donner on May 15, 2006 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent, excellent point
by walk off bunt on May 15, 2006 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could be wrong, but
The thing that I really like about the A's is that they are the antithesis to teams like the Yanks/BoSox, in that they develop their own talent, and give those young guys a chance. While I still think we're better than most teams, in this respect, I fear that like most teams in the "win now" mode, BB might be too reticent to play the young potential guys, instead overpaying for guys like Payton, Loaiza, Ginter, Kendall, etc.
by RayRay59 on May 15, 2006 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's pretty obvious
and by all accounts Beane played a pivotal role in the decision to draft Zito when they did and a lessar, though still, important role in the drafting of Hudson.
by oaktoon on May 15, 2006 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey buddy ...
While your point is right, it might be better expressed by saying something like, "In reading Moneyball, it was pretty clear to me that by 2002 ..."
by devo on May 15, 2006 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the Moneyball jinx
--The Big 3 stopped pitching like the Big 3; every one of them had significant setbacks in '04, giving lie to the title of Mychael Urban's new book about them.
--we lost two more free-agents--Tejada and Foulke
--Billy had a particularly bad offseason. The best trade he made was no steal--Ramon Hernandez for Mark Kotsay was a good deal for both teams. Lilly-for-Kielty was horrible, and the Redman and Rhodes signings eventually led us to Ramon's current pricey replacement.
I don't think it's a matter of BB getting lazy; I agree with sentiments written above, that the book overexaggerated his genius in the first place.
Incidentally, I think the gm who was the greatest at discovering journeyman veterans was Beane's mentor, Sandy Alderson. Twin reclamation projects Dave Stewart and Dennis Eckersley--that was awesome.
by rubin sierra on May 15, 2006 11:59 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Depo
I too miss the "moneyball" pickups. I've been wishing the past few years Beane would pick up someone like Josh Willingham. You have to admit though that Halsey, Gaudin and Kennedy are looking like really smart deals.
by pinkfloyd on May 15, 2006 12:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Forst has Depo's Old Job
by Gerard on May 15, 2006 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
by SeanR on May 15, 2006 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I personally think so highly of BB
by devo on May 15, 2006 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ginter and Perry for Pujols!
by salb918 on May 15, 2006 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, they are.
by McFood on May 15, 2006 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They're also for
by salb918 on May 15, 2006 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i like
by F171615 on May 15, 2006 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love how "everyone" ...
by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
where did I say that?
by pinkfloyd on May 15, 2006 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excuse me?
Payton is the very defintion of "replacement player," and granting his ability to play three positions, it's not worth $4 million, not on this club, not when you knew he would be forced into every-day action when the inevitable Milton Bradley injury and/or mental breakdown would occur.
I don't quite follow the rationale for saying that Kielty has proven himself to be an every-day player. All he has shown during his A's tenure (and his last season with Toronto) is that he absolutely should NEVER see an at-bat against a right-handed pitcher (yes, even against K-Rod). He's an acceptable platoon player because he can left-handed pitchers, but he is not an every-day player.
by Gitz on May 15, 2006 12:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Jay Payton
by devo on May 15, 2006 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Payton is better than a "replacement"
by salb918 on May 15, 2006 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two points...
What I think gets people is a significant part of the team core is cheap Swisher, Blanton, Harden, Haren, Ellis, Crosby, Johnson, Duke, Street, Saarloos, Calero, Scutaro, and more. Zito, Chavez, Saarloos, Kendall, and Kotsay making really good money. But, all of the above combined are still maybe $50 million-ish. And, the budget is $70 million. So, that leaves $20 million to spent on the other 9 players. About 15 million of that goes to Loaiza, Payton, Bradley, Kielty, leaving 5 million to round out the last 5 players Perez, Melhuse, Thomas, Witasik, Kennedy. Not counting call ups.
So, what I think gets a lot of people is that a significant portion of the starting line up is paid a lot less than the back ups. But, a lot of those cheap starters will get contracts and the salaries will shift back towards cheap back ups.
Hmmm... That poses and interesting question. In the minors does anyone see serviceable back ups coming up the system that could be in the mix in 2008?
by Donner on May 15, 2006 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Indeed
That said, the A's can't afford someone to someone like Payton $4 million. Had the A's traded for an outfielder who isn't brittle, he'd make an acceptable fourth outfielder, albeit still expensive. But because of Bradley's long injury history it was clear that Payton was slated for every-day duty (or at least he would be kind of a third-and-a-half OF), and equally clear that he'd be another in the long line of craptastic corner outfielders in recent years.
by Gitz on May 15, 2006 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beane discovered a use for Gallego?
by FormerHuntsvilleStar on May 15, 2006 5:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
My $0.02
So maybe Beane should have given Watson a shot, but then so should have the rest of the GM's throughout the majors. Obviously, that didn't happen, so he bolted for Japan. Cool, good luck to him. Doesn't seem like a huge deal to me.
by TempletonPeck on May 15, 2006 8:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If anyone was going to give a player a chance
by grover on May 15, 2006 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
by the way, this is a very good post
by OaklandSi on May 15, 2006 8:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Sorry I came late to this dance
by grover on May 15, 2006 9:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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