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The Matt Watson Mistake-Has Beane Become Lazy?

By now we all know the A's granted Watson his release to join the Chiba Lotte Marines in Japan. On the surface this doesn't look like a big deal. A career minor leaguer gets released to extend his fading baseball career in the Land of Rising Sun. But I believe there are issues involved with this move that are troubling for the A's organization and need to be discussed.

Billy Taylor, Matt Stairs, Izzy, Mike Gallego, Rich Becker, John Jaha. There were others, but none of them were superstars. However Billy discovered a use for them. He outsmarted GM's and MLB in general with these misfits and outcasts. Beane and Co. assessed that some would be great closers and others awesome OBP machines. Plus, if sprinkled in some inexperienced hotshot youngsters like G and Eric and Ramon and Miggy along with some ass-kicking pitching like "The Big Three"....well now, playoffs here we come! All on a shoestring budget. It's what people write books about!

But 2001 happened. Our beloved A's were once again KO'd prematurely from the playoffs and Billy showed the first crack of discontentment with how he was winning and fooling MLB. This shift from "winning while fooling everyone on the cheap" is growing and its not making things better but worse. The A's are no longer winning like the late 90's and early 00's and they aren't fooling anyone. Are the A's spending like the Bosox and Yankees? Of course not. But I do believe Billy has become disinterested with building his teams. He is making too many mistakes. One could say, Beane is off his game.

No longer do we see Beane grabbing that "player-to-be-named-later". Holding out for the "...and cash considerations" for that pickup in August. And we don't see Beane giving guys like Matt Watson a chance. Sure Watson was given his "cup of coffee" last year. Sure he didn't have a great ST this year. But all Watson has done, year-in year-out was rake in the minors and play solid defense. In 1998, 1999, 2000 and maybe in 2001 Watson WOULD have been the starting LF in Oakland.

In 2006 we have Payton at 4 million who can't hit a breaking ball if his life depended on. We have Booby K who isn't near as funny without the hair at 1 million. And we have Perez who after 20 ABs final has a hit but plays defense like it's a disease. And finally, and this is where Billy truly lost his way, when the A's traded Lehr and Cruz for Ginter. Presently, Ginter continues to play and "offer veteran leadership" in The Sac at 3 Million dollars. Folks, that's 8 millions misspent by my account (that's not counting Perez's peanuts he "earns").

I say Watson's release is simply just not about giving a chance to a career minor leaguer but rather an opportunity lost to show MLB that the A's are a special organiztion that can see the gifts of a player, plug said player in a role where he'II succeed and as a TEAM win more ballgames than their highpriced competition. And, who knows, maybe win the WS.

In conclusion, I still believe. I still believe in Billy. I still believe Billy is God in a pair of khakis shorts purchased at The Gap for $29.99. I just think, with Watson anyway, he just blew a save.

 

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Agree 100%
I totally agree with your comments-  but I think you need to add in the horrible trades of no-tell Dotel,  Arthur Rhodes and perhaps even Jason Kendall to get a true picture of Beanes ability to always make the right moves.  Many people thought the book would put a curse on Beane and his ability to fool the other managers, and indeed it seems as if they are now fooling him.  I only hope that the big bucks shelled out for Esteban Loaiza aren't a waste also.  

I don't think anyone expects Beane to be perfect- but the expectations created in "Moneyball"  are pretty high.

The greenmachine

by greenmachine on May 15, 2006 9:52 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

some perspective
it is baseball. there are no sure things. ask pat burrel, as easy as the game comes it can leave a player just as quick. it is hard for someone to see that kendall would struggle the way he has. you cant blame beane because dotel's elbow fell off. Ginter is another issue. sometimes injuries force you to make move you would not normaly make. we needed to find another second basemen, so we went with Ginter. i think if you were to look at any teams transactions this closely you would find just as many mistakes.

by oaktownredneck on May 15, 2006 10:08 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Huh??
Watson had ample chance to show that he could hit major league pitching-- he never delivered.

Can he play over Kotsay and his stellar Cf defense? Of course not.

Can he play over Bradley-- when healthy-- and his potential for a 850+ OPS season? No.

Over Swisher in the middle of a breakout year? No.

sure Payton and Kielty aren't great shakes, but did Watson ever have the kind of stretch that Payton did for 5-6 weeks last year?  No.

Does he have the upside of Robnett, Herrera and Buck?  No.

Beane recognized that this guy is a marginal benchwarmer-- for the A's or most other teams in the bigs. Let him go to Japan with a chance to play. If in a couple of years he shows greater ability someone will give him a chance.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on May 15, 2006 10:09 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

That's more like it..
I agree. Good luck over there Matt, too bad Piatt didn't think of this first.

You can rake AAA pitching, Japan should treat you well.

"You know I don't like beautiful, well put together women, give me a nice nose break or a lazy eye." Johnny Drama

by rook on May 15, 2006 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Piatt
Exactly who I thought of when I was reading this diary.  I loved that Piatt won the AA triple crown; I figured anybody who wins the triple-crown is can't-miss at the next level.  I wonder what he's up to now?

by rubin sierra on May 15, 2006 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Piatt was a ST invitee
to the indians and was cut. i think in '05.
"The Matt Watson/Chiba Lotte Marines Fan Club"-The Committee is accepting new memberships (please pay in Yen). "Raking" numbers soon to be posted.

by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He sold me a lawn mower at Hope Depot last week
Old joke I know...but you get the point.

Saki bombs away

"You know I don't like beautiful, well put together women, give me a nice nose break or a lazy eye." Johnny Drama

by rook on May 15, 2006 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i think i have a CC to that place somewhere
"The Matt Watson/Chiba Lotte Marines Fan Club"-The Committee is accepting new memberships (please pay in Yen). "Raking" numbers soon to be posted.

by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You made me laugh-spit sandwich on my monitor
But then, I'm easy.
New advertising campaign...A's Brand Baseball: Blink, and You'll Miss It. - Kyli

by McFood on May 15, 2006 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jose Ortiz
is who first came to mind for me (i really thought the ceiling for him was limitless), but i think the best comparison for Watson would be Koonce.  i never observed any of these players much in the minors - but if i'm not mistaken Watson is about the same age as was Koonce when he won PCL MVP with terrific minor league numbers.
"Apparently there's a rule that you have to be old enough to drive yourself to the induction ceremony. So obviously that's not gonna work."

by F171615 on May 15, 2006 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Couple of great names
Here is the thing for me, as stated in a couple of posts on this thread, the A's have drafted some amazing talent. They have groomed some really good "prospects" that they have inflated value and the only way they helped the team was going to another team's system for players t0 help the big club- ala Dye, Damon, Dotel,  Weaver/Lilly, Bradley et al deals.

It's too bad Watson couldn't help the big club in this regard. Signing in Japan really does state where you are in MLB: Nowhere to be seen and not on anybody's roadmap (which really is a sad state of affairs give the Royals/DRays/Marlin's rosters).

"You know I don't like beautiful, well put together women, give me a nice nose break or a lazy eye." Johnny Drama

by rook on May 15, 2006 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree,
there is no spot for him, but I do wonder if Beane tried shopping him at all.
"Do you ever get down on your knees and thank God you know me and have access to my dementia?" - George Costanza

by Captain on May 15, 2006 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

71 MLB ABs-
That wass the extent of his "ample chance to show...."

Come on, use your head.

"The Matt Watson/Chiba Lotte Marines Fan Club"-The Committee is accepting new memberships (please pay in Yen). "Raking" numbers soon to be posted.

by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They also gave him an extended look
in ST this year ... and he showed them nothing.

Even if Watson could match Payton with the bat - which is a pretty big if - Payton would still be twice the player he is, because he is one of the better defensive OF around.

by devo on May 15, 2006 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

JayPay is leaving soon or Sept..
  • MB has bad wheels
  • Kotsay has a bad back
  • Kielty is #4-5 at best
  • A's offense hums like a machine with Swisher at 1B.
Watson was cheap insurance so depending if your glass is half full or half empty the A's have their colective ass hanging way out or this forces them to get solid help.

I like the solid help angle and vote for Tori Hunter.

JP can be relocated.

by Billy Ball 2005 on May 15, 2006 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right on, Oaktoon
Matt Watson is a well-below average major league player.  Good luck in Japan.  We'll try our luck with other prospects.  

by AlBowe on May 15, 2006 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Give this man a prize.
This is the Matt Watson I remember. He had his chance and didn't deliver.

by sf drift king on May 15, 2006 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ample chance?
The man had 48 AB with the Oakland A's, and you feel that that is ample evidence to make a definitive judgement on the guy's career?

Shoot, oaktoon. It took you more than 48 AB to figure out that Crosby shouldn't be batting in the #3 hole this year!

Why yes. I am a ray of warm and fuzzy sunshine.

by grover on May 15, 2006 9:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I approach this question from a different angle
I think that the most factitious big storyline in Moneyball was neither the "Moneyball offense = beer softball league" schtick, nor the "young Turks upsetting the old guard" tale, nor the "Island of Misfit Toys/we're not selling jeans" line, nor the "Mr Sabermetric Sporks vs terbacky-chawin' yokels" distortion.

I think the biggest manufactured, not-quite-adherent-to-reality storyline was the "Billy Beane, innovatin'-whirligig, Henry Ford in shorts and flipflops, celebrity MBA commencement speaker" myth.

Don't get me wrong: I think Beane's a supersmart guy, and one of the best GMs in the business.

But he's still a creature of habit in the same way that all baseball men are, he's still limited in the sheer number of innovations and off-the-wall moves by the quotidian exigencies of running a ballclub, and he's never been the radical innovator of Lewis's fable.

(Lewis, BTW, and this is not a criticism, essentially writes the same story with every book [which all successful authors do]: a fun-loving cerebral rebel upsets the old order and succeeds against the prejudices of the old guard, thereby ushering in a new era that sweeps the hero aside once the new prejudices supplant the old as the social order.)

Binturongs are frugiverous. @('.')@

by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 10:12 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Monkeyball,
Your comments are exactly what I'm trying to talk about here. Do I think Watson should have been given a better chance? Sure. But if people think my diary is sole about Watson well they're missing the point.

Beane, by virtue of Moneyball, was shown to be this innovative wizard. There was "The Moneyball Philosophy" and this approach was beating higher salaried teams "at their own game". But if all that is true:

- beane doesn't trade for Ginter at 6 million over 2 years
-beane doesn't trade for Kendall at 10-11 per
-beane doesn't sign Loza for 21 mil X 3 yrs.
-beane doesnt' does sign Rhodes @ 12 million X 3 yrs.
-beane doesnt't trade for payton with 1 yr remaining at 4 million.
-he doesn't sign Booby K at 800K prior to arbie last yrs.and then gives him 1 mil AFTER a subpar yr.

Where is "the philosophy" in these moves.

Listen, posters like ohad and oaktoon want to debate Watson's skill set but that really isn't the point here. But if the moneyball philosophy was still afloat, then a guy like Watson needed to be in Oakland AND been given a chance. Especially before Booby, Payton, Big Frank (and I liked that signing) and maybe even Johnson.
 

"The Matt Watson/Chiba Lotte Marines Fan Club"-The Committee is accepting new memberships (please pay in Yen). "Raking" numbers soon to be posted.

by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, you did hook your argument on Watson
What frustrates me -- and, I suspect, you -- is the incomplete application of what Lewis identified as a core philosophy.

In fact, a complete application of that philosophy might have resulted in the same conclusion for Watson -- no real MLB time with the A's.

Watson, to me, is more representative of a different Beane problem: his absoilute refusal to DL a player until he's already missed significant time. I don't think Watson should have been starting for the A's, or necessarily even their 4th or 5th Of -- but he sure could have been useful occasionally when Kotsay in particular should have been DLed.

Binturongs are frugiverous. @('.')@

by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well.
"Membership" requires "the hook" :-)  Got any loose Yen laying around?
"The Matt Watson/Chiba Lotte Marines Fan Club"-The Committee is accepting new memberships (please pay in Yen). "Raking" numbers soon to be posted.

by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's look at the totality of this
beane ahs taken a chance at a lot of veterans or players from other organizations who were no longer prospects over the years-- some for little or no money; some for a modest amount of money; some for a larger amount:

Gant
Justice
Halama
Redman
Rhodes
Koch
Foulke
Miller
Kotsay
Payton
Lidle
Jaha
Lilly
Kielty
Hatteberg
Dye

And several more I think I've forgotten.

The point is you pays you money and takes your chances. Lidle worked out brilliantly; so did Koch in that he pitched well until the end and then landed Foulke.

Miller was an OK stopgap after Beane essentially unloaded Long in the Hernandez for Kotsay deal. If he had never traded Ramon, who exactly would be playing CF right now?? Watson??

The biggest mistake was obviously Rhodes, with redman as a mediocre acquisition. He resolved it with Kendall-- and trhings haven't worked out all that hot.

Lilly was of amrginal value to this team with th Big Three in place and Harden comingon strong-- so he took a gamble on Kielty. It didn't pay off.

Payton was a prefectly good acquisition given Byrnes' tailing off-- in that it gave us depth in a weak place on the team given Kotsay's back, Swisher's inexpereience, and Kielty's limitations.

One can criticize him for the Dye signing... the White Sox appear to have been the fortunate ones in that deal.

As for the Ginter deal, do you think Cruz or Lehr would have played any significant rolw on this tema either last year or this? Maybe Lehr is one of the many bullpen subs, but that's it.

Ginter flamed out-- could anyone have seen that coming?? It was a gamble for depth just like Perez that hasn't worked out.

But I don't think he's changed his philosphy as much as the circumstances of the team have changed. Way back when he had to put bargain absement players in key roles-- now he can afford to spend ina few places. But as with anyone else who spends, some hit and some miss. In 2001-02, thje fates coincided to give him three excellent pitchers and several very good position players (including two who won mVPs while here) for virtually nothing. Such a development rarely occurs in any organization-- we should be thankful it did here at least once and, with Haren, Blanton, Harden, crosby and swisher all still making comparatively little, maybe again.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on May 15, 2006 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Others...
Durazo, of course
and Damon
oaktoon

by oaktoon on May 15, 2006 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Beane did say-
The Big Three made him look very smart.

Also, based on most of your points, Beane has been swinging-and-missing vs solid hits lately.  

Not only did the big 3 make him look smarter, but maybe DePo too!

"The Matt Watson/Chiba Lotte Marines Fan Club"-The Committee is accepting new memberships (please pay in Yen). "Raking" numbers soon to be posted.

by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Based on your examples...
One could argue that Beane's gotten fat and lazy in his old age. I think the group of aforementioned players in your post reveal the testing of his philosophies about players and what we see are some of the downsides of that.

Ginter appealed to Beane prob. d/t his power potential. He played well in Milwaukee prior to the trade his defense was to be under the hands of Wash.

Kendall had a great resume, BFHD offensively he sucked but his intangibles haven't gone unnoticed. Essentially we were getting rid of Redman and Rhodes.

Rhodes was the closer experiment that failed, bottom line.

Kietly represents insurance but Beane, I believe doesn't like arby so it was a "logical" progression of salary.

Payton will be a good role player, able to help great teams but may not make good teams great. Oh well.

One time I heard Beane saying that essentially all trades are crapshoots and hopefully you get lucky. He offers a sophisticated approach but that doesn't guarantee anything. Overall, he's been luckier than most.

"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King

by Gerard on May 15, 2006 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I looked it up ...
thought I'd share my research with others.

Factitious (adj.)

  1. Produced artificially rather than by a natural process.
  2. Lacking authenticity or genuineness; sham: speculators responsible for the factitious value of some stocks.

by rubin sierra on May 15, 2006 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

your next assignment
"quotidian exigencies"
Binturongs are frugiverous. @('.')@

by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

and "whirligig"
"The Matt Watson/Chiba Lotte Marines Fan Club"-The Committee is accepting new memberships (please pay in Yen). "Raking" numbers soon to be posted.

by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

and binturon" and frugiverous
(BTW, WTF is up with the subject line and disallowing multiple quotation marks?)
Binturongs are frugiverous. @('.')@

by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

questionmark???
well quotidian exigencies seemed, from the context, to mean
-the crap gm's have to deal with
Factitious I might have also figured out from the context, but then I stumbled--did you mean to say fictitious?  Or facetious?  

by rubin sierra on May 15, 2006 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting, then,...
(Lewis, BTW, and this is not a criticism, essentially writes the same story with every book [which all successful authors do]: a fun-loving cerebral rebel upsets the old order and succeeds against the prejudices of the old guard, thereby ushering in a new era that sweeps the hero aside once the new prejudices supplant the old as the social order.)

...that Lewis isn't fond of the life and ministry of Jesus.  In fact, Lewis seems to be hostile -- in his mocking-like manner -- to Christians throughout two of his pieces of work that I have read.

4 8 15 16 23 42

by LowcountryJoe on May 17, 2006 4:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Watson Schmatson
I honestly think that if Watson was good enough he would have been given his chance. Clearly, the A's and Beane don't think he's good enough to contribute, IE, a AAAA player. He's not lazy. You really think the GM of a baseball team (aside from the Steve Phillips' and Jim Bowdens' of the game) would ignore something like this or be lazy? Most likely,he just has an opinion (and more information) and it's opposite from yours.
<Insert angry hockey players with no teeth>-AsGirl

by ohad on May 15, 2006 10:19 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Billy Beane's made more than enough
mistakes for us to cast aside that proposition. I trust him as much as anyone, but unfortunately for us he's not omnipotent. I'm confident he didn't know anything we didn't know about Matt Watson, he simply had what he felt were "safer" players in JayPay and Kielty. I mean if Beane knew something we didn't about Watson, we'd have to assume the same about Loaiza, Kendall, Kielty, Rhodes, and other mediocrities, in which case I dearly hope he didn't have more inside information and still decided to act on those sub par, yet expensive talents.

by walk off bunt on May 15, 2006 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Watson was garbage in Winter ball too:
He was below the Mendoza line.

I wish him well, but, he was never going to do it here in Oakland.

While taint is everywhere and baseball is certainly no different, it's important that it be treated with open attention-Devo

by saint on May 15, 2006 10:21 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Billy weakness on paper
has not been, in my opinion, development of talent on the farm, but rather poor performance from free-agents who are more than a second-half rental.  

No one knows what Watson would have become, but the farm production has been very good overall, and I don't see any other MLB teams chomping to get Watson. Maybe a way to approach this question is to examine if any of our AAA players who left as free-agents end up being productive MLBers (I don't count being a Royals player right now).

As for Beane's bad choices of free-agents, maybe they were bad flukes given limited choices ont he market, but it's getting to be an annoyingly consistent fluke.

by Apricot on May 15, 2006 10:33 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

We all now how this works,
Sure Watson cleared waivers. But his agent sent out the word Watson had a deal in Japan so no one wasted the claim.

Given the right situation there's plenty of teams that could've used a guy like Watson.  

"The Matt Watson/Chiba Lotte Marines Fan Club"-The Committee is accepting new memberships (please pay in Yen). "Raking" numbers soon to be posted.

by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

true but
I'd think if other teams had some interest, they could have swung a deal, instead of having the A's let him walk for nothing.

by Apricot on May 15, 2006 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Doubtful,
Watson already had a deal in Japan and as a courtesy the other 29 teams would'nt screw the deal up.

I mean, it's not like Watson is worth it or anything. I say Beane should've released him after ST.

"The Matt Watson/Chiba Lotte Marines Fan Club"-The Committee is accepting new memberships (please pay in Yen). "Raking" numbers soon to be posted.

by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree
Kevin Millar was sold to a Japanese team, but the Red Sox interfered and claimed him off waivers.  Courtesy schmourtesy.
Can intangibles exist? Only the ones you can touch.

by salb918 on May 15, 2006 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

HAHA, Millar set that up...
...to get out of FL and as I recall the Marlins, the Japanese team and MLB were severely pissed with the Bosox for the stunt.

Plus, Watson doesn't=Millar.

"The Matt Watson/Chiba Lotte Marines Fan Club"-The Committee is accepting new memberships (please pay in Yen). "Raking" numbers soon to be posted.

by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe he should have dressed......
....like the hamburgerler or grimace. It seemed to have worked for a worthless B. Kielty. Watson is a good hustle guy who could handle the leather and hit for average, Kielty earns a paycheck because he makes for good 2 sec. T.V. clips. And remember, we traded Bonderman, Carlos Pena and Franklin German for Jeff Weaver whom we traded for Ted Lilly which became Bobby Kielty. Hosed by the Tigers? WTF!

by jjham15 on May 15, 2006 10:42 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

by Blue Jays as well
the Lilly-Kielty deal looked atrocious in 2004, then slightly better in early 2005, but it is starting to stink mightily again this year.

by rubin sierra on May 15, 2006 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am not even sure where to begin with this...
Couple of points from my recollection:
  1. Weaver was making like 5-6 MM at the time, and is currently on his third team post this trade- that says something...he is mediocore at best with an inflated salary.
  2. Pena is somwhere in the Yanks Farm system (Ohio, maybe)- he never fit in with the A's, I actually remember Beane saying something publically about his hitting approach and how he will not listen. Hatty did just fine there for a few years, as I recall.
  3. Bonderman was 19 at the time, and yes he is good now, but Lilly gave us what we needed while he was here, and we needed someone who could help the Huddy/Mulder/Zito that year, not 3 years from now. Do you remember he owned the Sox for a series?
Kielty should be better then he is. I am not sure what happened along the way, but he used to rake.  

The point is, let's not just look at names but situations.

"You know I don't like beautiful, well put together women, give me a nice nose break or a lazy eye." Johnny Drama

by rook on May 15, 2006 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well put.
"We've come a long way, and I'm not talking about Virginia Slims, either." - Art Howe

by EastCoastA on May 15, 2006 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Double that....
Now THIS is Billy Ball

by Masaryk on May 15, 2006 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I Thought We'd Hear From You
   It would have been nice to see Watson get a chance to perform ath the ML level. This is where we saw Olmeido Saenz and others come up and assert themselves. The outfield depth, I'm afraid sealed Watson's fate more than anything else. He didn't have the defensive versatility that others had and maybe while comparable to Kielty defensively (we'll never know) Kielty was more established and got the nod.
   He'll be gone but not forgotten from AN lore, mostly thanks to you.
"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King

by Gerard on May 15, 2006 10:42 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Hey G good to hear from you.
Sad day in The Sac when Watson was handing out hugs. I bet there were a lot of guys reevaluating their careers in the minors that day.
"The Matt Watson/Chiba Lotte Marines Fan Club"-The Committee is accepting new memberships (please pay in Yen). "Raking" numbers soon to be posted.

by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Age
One thing that both the scouts and the stat-types agree on with regard to prospects is the importance of age in evaluating minor league performance.

In recent years, Crosby, Swisher, Dan Johnson, Watson, Jason Grabowski, Graham Koonce, and Mike Edwards all put up similar numbers in Sacramento. The difference? Crosby and Swisher were 23, Johnson was 25, and the others were all at least 26.

And the results have been to form. Crosby and Swisher are becoming stars as they continue to develop as hitters. Johnson has been pretty good, but is still considered to have a low ceiling. Grabowski (whose numbers were a little better than Watson) and Edwards (a little worse, but he can play 3B) have both gotten playing time with the Dodgers, and haven't hit at all. Koonce (the oldest) and Watson haven't had much of a chance, with the A's or anyone else, but if they were, the results would almost surely be the same.

Ooh Ahh, Sabres on the warpath

by andeux on May 15, 2006 10:46 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Age as Future Projections
This is a very good point. But I thought the A's went against such things. I mean, afterall, everyone in baseball knows to throw payton a breaking pitch and he'II swing every time. What's payton doing in a predominately breaking ball pitching league, making 4 mil per, ON THE A'S if Beane doesn't go against the normal?    
"The Matt Watson/Chiba Lotte Marines Fan Club"-The Committee is accepting new memberships (please pay in Yen). "Raking" numbers soon to be posted.

by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Beane's
use of the McMillons of the baseball world is not because an attempt to find "hidden talent," it's an attempt to fill out a roster cheaply with guys who aren't offensive zeros.

Beane doesn't need to that this year because we have major league talent at the major league level.  Despite Watson's (or Bynum's, or Koonce's) numbers, I would rather have a Kielty or Payton who have statistically shown their ability to play hit major league pitching while playing almost every day.  Watson's departure isn't anything to cry about - we should be happy that we've assembled a team this year that can do without the him.

Can intangibles exist? Only the ones you can touch.

by salb918 on May 15, 2006 10:55 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

exactly
I'm not even able to respond to this post, because so much of it is based on general misunderstandings of how teams win games.

You pay for success...and then search for guys for cheap to fill the holes.  Do we overpay guys?  Yes, but that is because we swung and missed on Kielty, Rhodes, and Ginter...all three of those guys, if you take what we hoped they would give us, would have been true bargains.  It's not like we got them because we want to pay for players now.

In addition, I find it ironic that we point to Geronimo Berroa and Billy Taylor as examples of guys that we relied on off the scrap heap.  HOW many games did we win those years?

It's easy to stick an average player in the middle of a terrible lineup and watch him produce ML average stats.  Yes, Billy Taylor had some good years-but the reason that we don't have Billy Taylor right now is because we have this Street fellow.  Who knows, if Street wasn't here, maybe Witasick would be the Billy Taylor.

The reason we aren't having these huge shocker surprise stars is because our team is good, now.  You guys need to be careful what you wish for with guys like Watson-if you want AAAA players roaming the outfield, that is fine...but don't be negative in the game threads when we lose 75% of the games.

by SeanR on May 15, 2006 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

careful with that axe, Eugene
Beane has always emphasized not "paying for [previous] success" -- his teams have always been comprised primarily of a mix of internally developed (or acquired in the minors) young talent and undervalued/cheap fill-ins and role players.

In fact, it's when Beane has paid for previous success that he's generally been burned.

And, c'mon, no one's advocating that we should have kept Billy T -- he's used as an example of Beane's true genius in taking an essentially replacement-level player, inserting him in a meaningless but statistically and financially overvalued position, and thereby turning him into a tradeable commodity.

And, again, please point to anyone actually advocating "Matt Watson should have been our starting LF for the past three years."

Binturongs are frugiverous. @('.')@

by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

one problem
In every one of the examples that I gave you, Beane wasn't paying for previous success.  I mean, sure, the guy was successful previously-but he was paying betting that they would improve to a level far above their previous production (Rhodes would grow into a closer, Kielty would grow into a middle of the order hitter, Ginter would grow into Chase Utley)...

Now, did I agree with those moves at the time?  No, I didn't agree with any of them.  But that is what he was trying to do, and I respect his willingness to go out and try.

The real problem I have with your argument, though, is that you guys keep making your claims and then you duck for cover whenever someone brings in Watson or Billy Taylor or any of them.  You say that no one has said he should be a starting outfielder...okay, so, if you admit that, does that mean that we're simply arguing over what Beane is doing with the 24th and 25th men on the roster?

Because the last time I checked, we're giving one helluva chance to Randy Keisler to show that he's not washed up, Matt Roney to show people that he exists, etc...

I think the only argument you can make, really, is that Beane shouldn't be trading for guys like Jay Payton, because they aren't HUGE improvements over replacement level players.  However, Payton was huge insurance against Kotsay's balky back.  Watson wasn't going to play CF, and we didn't have Bradley at the time.

Again, I know you'll say that this argument isn't about Watson...but it has to be about someone.  The simple truth is that we have 25 spots on a roster, and someone is going to have to convince us how Watson or whichever other AAAA player you all love can fit on (Where's the Scott McClain diary?)...

by SeanR on May 15, 2006 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

good points, those
My problem with Beane's use/nonuse of marginal/AAAA players is more tangential: basically, I think Beane unnecessarily limits the A's to a 20-22-man active roster year in and year out by refusing to DL injured players. Someone like Watson or McClain would slot in nicely when Kotsay/Bradley/Chavez/Thomas are injured. So, to your point, yes, this is mostly splitting hairs over the tail end of the roster -- but it's not the last 2 spots, it's the last 3-5 spots.

Where this intersects specifically with, say, Kielty and Payton is that these guys, by dint of the injuries and unavailability of regulars and Beane's refusal to call up AAA/AAAA reinforcements, are pressed into regular usage outside of the specific conditions for which they were acquired/projected to succeed. I'll grant that Watson or McClain, projected over the course of 162 games, would likely be outperformed by Kielty or Payton; but when Kielty's starting consecutive games against both LHSPs and RHSPs, then you're basically negating the advantage for which he was acquired.

Payton's acquisition, as you point out, was a smart and necessary move -- and one that I agreed with. Payton, like Kotsay, has most if not all of his value tied up in his defense. But when you have Payton and Kotsay both starting regularly at the same time, then you're going to have pretty meh offense from your OF; and when you have Payton, Kotsay, and Kielty all starting at once (esp if Kielty's playing against a RHSP), you're going to downgrade that to meh -- and take a huge hit on defense with Kielty.

Beane makes, I think, excellent decisions on trade acquisitions; but the fitting together of the components always depends on everything going perfectly.

Binturongs are frugiverous. @('.')@

by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well
I'll definitely agree with you on the DL thing...

although, in all honesty, I'm not sure I buy that it is Beane's fault.  I'm starting to really wonder about the abilities of our trainers.

by SeanR on May 15, 2006 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, that's two separate issues ...
... the injuring of players, and the refusal to DL the injured players.

As to the first, though, Beane has definitely identified fragile players as an undervalued commodity -- he's stocked the roster with achy-breakies. And if it is the trainers' fault in some way, I'd think that the ultimate responsibility would still trickle up the chain of command. Like if, in a totally hypothetical way, one had an incompetent Secretary of Defense (and I do mean "defense" as in outfield and infield defense), one would still hold the President, I mean, GM responsible, right?

Binturongs are frugiverous. @('.')@

by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

hypothetically speaking?
I would say a GM/President should have something of a performance review at fixed intervals ... at least once every four years and if that individual or a significant number of his staff are performing at unacceptably low levels, it would be a good idea to bring in someone new.

by devo on May 15, 2006 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

and I think you're just identified ...
... a potential problem with giving either an ownership stake in the franchise ...
Binturongs are frugiverous. @('.')@

by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sly, crafty monkey!
I miss Bill King.

by Checkswing HR on May 16, 2006 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

not crafty enough ...
... I lack the HTML mojo to get the strikethrough tags to work on the P-word ...
bat shrapnel problem @('.')@

by monkeyball on May 16, 2006 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you really think we'd get that much value ...
out of having Matt Watson warming a spot on the bench instead of possibly getting Chavvy or Bradley back for an extra 3-5 games?

by devo on May 15, 2006 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, that depends ...
... and this gets to another of my favorite Beane bugbears: the apparent inability to project missed time or mendacity regarding same.

Bradley's in the typical Beane holding pattern of "day to day" ... "almost back" ... "three more days" ... and then suddenly he's been out 2 weeks and won't be available for another 2.

And when he does come back, he's not at 100% capacity, so that (a) he's underperforming not only his own projection but likely even that of the scrub behind him, and (b) by playing at less than full capacity he's also likelier to reinjure his original debility and/or suffer a cascade/compensation injury.

So, to directly answer your question, no, if Bradley or Chavvy is going to be out for 3-5 games and no more, it isn't worth DLing either.

But when has a Beane projection of "only out for 3-5 games" ever held true? It's a running joke at AN that "day to day" = "unavailable for 5 games" and so on (I generally multiply the team's stated estimate by 3x) mostly because it's true.

As I said in another diary on this matter, Beane's refusal to DL a player who clearly won't be able to play at full capacity for 7+ games is akin to refusing to risk paying for 2 extra days of your rental car when your own ride may be out of the shop early,and choosing to walk the 20 miles to work in the rain.

Binturongs are frugiverous. @('.')@

by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

right
This projection is what I was referring to.  The fact that all of us fans know Day by Day almost always means 2 weeks, whereas somehow the A's can't figure that out...

by SeanR on May 15, 2006 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

which I TOTALLY can't figure out!
These are smart guys! They're all professionals! Are they incompetent? (I don't think so.) Are they lying? (More likely, but kinda inexplicable motivation for doing so.) Is it something else? (Is the roster full of Jennifer's clones, all of whom have alien physiognomies that defy standard medical assessment?)

It just doesn't make any sense.

Binturongs are frugiverous. @('.')@

by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly, plus-
Staying "healthy" is a proficiency that has a history. Far too often lately the A's have taken TOO many chances with players with bad medical HX (i.e. see Karsay).
"The Matt Watson/Chiba Lotte Marines Fan Club"-The Committee is accepting new memberships (please pay in Yen). "Raking" numbers soon to be posted.

by bigelephant on May 16, 2006 5:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How are we 'taking a chance' with Karsay?
We got him for next to nothing - we're paying him next to nothing - there's no downside, what-so-ever

by devo on May 16, 2006 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

let's watch him pitch 1st
money is one thing, wins and loses are another.
"The Matt Watson/Chiba Lotte Marines Fan Club"-The Committee is accepting new memberships (please pay in Yen). "Raking" numbers soon to be posted.

by bigelephant on May 16, 2006 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There's no question that he can pitch ...
if he's healthy.

If he's not healthy, he won't be in a position to hurt them team.

While he's certainly far from a lock there also isn't any risk, since there is nothing to lose.

Since he made his last start in 1999 through the end of 2004, he posted a 3.10. He was never healthy in 2005 and struggled through ~20 terrible innings but he's not very old and he's got a great track record. He's also been absolutely dominant in AAA so far this season.

by devo on May 16, 2006 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Now, if we use him only
against AAAA guys like Watson, he should very successful.
New advertising campaign...A's Brand Baseball: Blink, and You'll Miss It. - Kyli

by McFood on May 16, 2006 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The huge problem with Moneyball
Is that, I think, it created this image of an all knowing, all intelligent Billy Beane. Billy Beane's a very smart guy, very good at doing his job, and at putting together a baseball team because he has a good deal of common sense.

But, honestly, if it were JUST about putting together a team (not running a baseball organization, which I won't even pretend to be able to do) do any of you guys really think you couldn't do much of the same? I mean strictly on these fringe moves and such. My point is Billy Beane's genius is in developing and acquiring a lot of YOUNG, low priced talent. The other fringe and big moves he's proven to not be particularly adept at. Finding a guy who can put up the offensive equivalents to Bobby Kielty or Jay Payton or Marco Scutaro is EASY. Very, very easy.

Which brings me back to my point. Moneyball implies that Billy Beane sees something everybody else is missing in these transactions. That's simply not the case. When you get a Kirk Saarloos, you get an averagish innings eater. Every team in the major leagues knows this, and any dedicated fan with an internet connection knows this as well. And it's been proven by his performance. When you get a Marco Scutaro, you get a middling infield backup. Again, every team in the majors and every fan with a computer can figure this out, and no amount of scientific  data plots that Beane may or may not possess really changes that. Ditto Joe Kennedy. Ditto Jason Kendall. Ditto Esteban Loaiza. Ditto Chad Gaudin. Ditto Randy Keisler and Steve Karsay. Good moves will be made and bad moves will be made. Extending Kielty was bad, getting Loaiza wasn't necessarily so, and how they work out isn't exactly the GM's fault. But the idea that Billy must know something we don't if he's going and getting Esteban Loaiza which on the surface looks weird, is simply ridiculous. He doesn't. He thought he was getting a fine innings eater with quality strikeout rates. My connection to mlb.com or my copy of Baseball Prospectus could have told me the same thing. Where Beane separates himself, and does so very, very well, is in the arena of player development and keeping the farm stocked. Every GM has bad drafts and such, but when you can bring Bobby Crosby, Rich Harden, Barry Zito, Eric Chavez, Dan Johnson, Nick Swisher, Huston Street, and Joe Blanton (among others) out of your collective drafts and bring in other young talents like Dan Haren, Daric Barton, and Mark Ellis you're doing a very good job relative to the other GM's of putting a team on the field. THAT is where Beane knows something we don't, that's where he makes his reputation as a shark. Not for signing the likes of Jay Payton, Bobby Kielty, and Esteban Loaiza to deals for more than they're worth.

by walk off bunt on May 15, 2006 11:57 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

awesome post.
I think I'd agree that Beane's strength is in the drafting and development of young players. But what he has shown a special knack for is acquiring these Scarloos/Scutaro types, at a low price usually, to complete the team. It is in this area Beane has not been as lucky lately as before.
"The Matt Watson/Chiba Lotte Marines Fan Club"-The Committee is accepting new memberships (please pay in Yen). "Raking" numbers soon to be posted.

by bigelephant on May 15, 2006 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Slightly different take...
I would argue that his strength is not necessarily the drafting and development of young players, but the development of an organization that from top to bottom has a consistent plan to put a quality major league team on the field.

I think another possible innovation is the use of longer term planning especially when it comes to the minor leagues.  You look at the current team and Swisher, Blanton, Harden, Johnson, Street and Crosby came out of our system and seemed ready just in time to replace players whose contracts were finished or would need to be traded.  There was some luck in that, but I am sure there was some planning also.  And, now the system is depleted.  But, most of the team is all locked up for the next 3 years or so.  And, those that are not, are in relatively inexpensive places to replace mostly backups.  And, it can be fixed using the next paragraph.

I think the other place Beane has innovated is realizing that in the draft and minor leagues it is really a crap shoot as to who will pan out into a major league player.  He uses all the tools described in Moneyball to try to skew the odds in his favor a little more, but in the end is hard to know who will succeed. So, you get as many dice rolls as you can, and draft 10 high school pitchers, knowing if you are lucky 2 will make the team in 4 years.  Or, you get 2 possible starters and 2 relievers for 2 of your best pitchers knowing you only need 1 of each and anything else would be bonus (well and Daric Barton).

I think where we see Beane is human is in the free agent market, and when things go wrong.  In the free agent market I would argue everyone is over priced in the sense that teams pay more for the fact that a player is a "proven" quantity. And, you see Beane fail because he gets one shot at a player.  Based on past performance you would think a player would do OK, but in the end injuries or random baseball crap can make a deal bad.  It does not help that Beane is typically shooting for the mid-level players here where regression looks real bad, playing to form is decent, and upside is unlikely.  The successful deals are the ones where the risk is low and upside high.  Hopefully we will see that with Thomas.

Of course when things go wrong and you have to make a move it is hard to succeed.  When you need to replace Foulke who you thought you could sign you get Rhodes.  When you need to unload Rhodes and Redman you get Kendall although Kendall should have been a little better, etc. etc.

I don't know if this is anything profound, but I hope it contributed ot the discussion.

by Donner on May 15, 2006 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent, excellent point
I think in a way I was searching for that, but couldn't exactly put it that way. But you're absolutely right. So many organizations lack a coherent plan and that's one of the key (if not the most important) areas that the A's set themselves apart with.

by walk off bunt on May 15, 2006 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I could be wrong, but
my understanding of how baseball front offices work is that someone within the organization, like the head of player development, actually handles the draft, not the GM.  I think I remember something about a thrown chair, and maybe even a firing, after BB heard the name Jeremy Bonderman on draft day.  So, I'm not sure how much credit BB deserves for a lot of the young players that the A's have brought up through their system.  However, for signings and trades I believe the GM does deserve the credit/blame, and I actually think BB hasn't been that good here, especially recently.  I'll admit, I have a bias for the potential of young players, and along those lines I'd rather give guys like Juan Cruz (who looks pretty good in Arizona) or Satiago Casilla a chance in the bullpen, instead of Karsays/Witasiks/Bradfords.  The same holds true for position players.  

The thing that I really like about the A's is that they are the antithesis to teams like the Yanks/BoSox, in that they develop their own talent, and give those young guys a chance.  While I still think we're better than most teams, in this respect, I fear that like most teams in the "win now" mode, BB might be too reticent to play the young potential guys, instead overpaying for guys like Payton, Loaiza, Ginter, Kendall, etc.  

A kitten bats around a ball of yarn but what he's really saying is, "You know I can't knit, motherf'er." That is one foul mouthed kitten. - Mitch Hedberg

by RayRay59 on May 15, 2006 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's pretty obvious
if you did read Moneyball, that by 2002 Beane, DePodesta and the numbers crunchers were pretty much in command of the draft. Grady Fuson was gone by then.

and by all accounts Beane played a pivotal role in the decision to draft Zito when they did and a lessar, though still, important role in the drafting of Hudson.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on May 15, 2006 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey buddy ...
just a little friendly tip, because it's been pretty clear that you've been trying hard lately to play nice and I appreciate that.

While your point is right, it might be better expressed by saying something like, "In reading Moneyball, it was pretty clear to me that by 2002 ..."

by devo on May 15, 2006 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

the Moneyball jinx
Or a whole lot of woofing, published by w.w. norton and co., in which the A's crow about how brilliant they were in being able to continue their 2000-01 success into 02-03 despite the loss of Giambi & others.  But between 03 and 04 a few things happened:

--The Big 3 stopped pitching like the Big 3; every one of them had significant setbacks in '04, giving lie to the title of Mychael Urban's new book about them.
--we lost two more free-agents--Tejada and Foulke
--Billy had a particularly bad offseason.  The best trade he made was no steal--Ramon Hernandez for Mark Kotsay was a good deal for both teams.  Lilly-for-Kielty was horrible, and the Redman and Rhodes signings eventually led us to Ramon's current pricey replacement.  

I don't think it's a matter of BB getting lazy; I agree with sentiments written above, that the book overexaggerated his genius in the first place.  

Incidentally, I think the gm who was the greatest at discovering journeyman veterans was Beane's mentor, Sandy Alderson.  Twin reclamation projects Dave Stewart and Dennis Eckersley--that was awesome.

by rubin sierra on May 15, 2006 11:59 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Depo
I think we need Depodesta back. He got a raw deal with the Dodgers.

I too miss the "moneyball" pickups. I've been wishing the past few years Beane would pick up someone like Josh Willingham. You have to admit though that Halsey, Gaudin and Kennedy are looking like really smart deals.  

by pinkfloyd on May 15, 2006 12:36 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Forst has Depo's Old Job
   No changing that unless Fo0rst leaves.
"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King

by Gerard on May 15, 2006 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol
I love how everyone on this board thinks that we could have just picked up Willingham for a mid-range prospect or something...

by SeanR on May 15, 2006 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I personally think so highly of BB
that he should be able to acquire anytone at all for a midrange prospect or two and think he's an incompetent idiot whenever he fails to make the deal ...

by devo on May 15, 2006 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ginter and Perry for Pujols!
Can intangibles exist? Only the ones you can touch.

by salb918 on May 15, 2006 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, they are.
New advertising campaign...A's Brand Baseball: Blink, and You'll Miss It. - Kyli

by McFood on May 15, 2006 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They're also for
family values and the reducing congestion on 880.
Can intangibles exist? Only the ones you can touch.

by salb918 on May 15, 2006 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i like
to use those cool nasal strips to help reduce my congestion.  i always seem to suffer from too much mucus on that damned 880.
"Apparently there's a rule that you have to be old enough to drive yourself to the induction ceremony. So obviously that's not gonna work."

by F171615 on May 15, 2006 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I love how "everyone" ...
... seems to keep seeing other "everyones" advocating positions that they haven't actually stated ...
Binturongs are frugiverous. @('.')@

by monkeyball on May 15, 2006 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

where did I say that?
The Orioles could have had him for Jorge Julio. He was clearly undervalued. Would have taken more than a mid-range prospect though.

by pinkfloyd on May 15, 2006 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Excuse me?
I would rather have a Kielty or Payton who have statistically shown their ability to hit major league pitching while playing almost every day.

Payton is the very defintion of "replacement player," and granting his ability to play three positions, it's not worth $4 million, not on this club, not when you knew he would be forced into every-day action when the inevitable Milton Bradley injury and/or mental breakdown would occur.

I don't quite follow the rationale for saying that Kielty has proven himself to be an every-day player. All he has shown during his A's tenure (and his last season with Toronto) is that he absolutely should NEVER see an at-bat against a right-handed pitcher (yes, even against K-Rod). He's an acceptable platoon player because he can left-handed pitchers, but he is not an every-day player.

by Gitz on May 15, 2006 12:39 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Jay Payton
is actually pretty thoroughly average with the bat ... which is quite a bit better than replacement level. Add in his sparkling glove and you're left with a quite thoroughly above average player.

by devo on May 15, 2006 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Payton is better than a "replacement"
He had 2.8 WARP last year and 4.6 the year before.  Kielty had 2.4 WARP last year.
Can intangibles exist? Only the ones you can touch.

by salb918 on May 15, 2006 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Two points...
Would Payton get $4 million as a free agent?  Maybe not.  You have to think of this as Beane has a budget and a long term plan.  So, he has to fill a 4th outfield spot without screwing the long term plan by trading away minor league players he will need next year or the year after.  And, stay within budget.  This year Payton is that guy.  Next year the solution may be different.

What I think gets people is a significant part of the team core is cheap Swisher, Blanton, Harden, Haren, Ellis, Crosby, Johnson, Duke, Street, Saarloos, Calero, Scutaro, and more.  Zito, Chavez, Saarloos, Kendall, and Kotsay making really good money.  But, all of the above combined are still maybe $50 million-ish.  And, the budget is $70 million.  So, that leaves $20 million to spent on the other 9 players.  About 15 million of that goes to Loaiza, Payton, Bradley, Kielty, leaving 5 million to round out the last 5 players Perez, Melhuse, Thomas, Witasik, Kennedy.  Not counting call ups.

So, what I think gets a lot of people is that a significant portion of the starting line up is paid a lot less than the back ups.  But, a lot of those cheap starters will get contracts and the salaries will shift back towards cheap back ups.

Hmmm... That poses and interesting question.  In the minors does anyone see serviceable back ups coming up the system that could be in the mix in 2008?

by Donner on May 15, 2006 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Indeed
I confuse "average" with "replacement." My bad.

That said, the A's can't afford someone to someone like Payton $4 million. Had the A's traded for an outfielder who isn't brittle, he'd make an acceptable fourth outfielder, albeit still expensive. But because of Bradley's long injury history it was clear that Payton was slated for every-day duty (or at least he would be kind of a third-and-a-half OF), and equally clear that he'd be another in the long line of craptastic corner outfielders in recent years.

by Gitz on May 15, 2006 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Beane discovered a use for Gallego?
Gallego was well-established before Beane finished his playing days...
Dorian on Bonds: "Still, I love it when Bonds wins at the game that he plays."

by FormerHuntsvilleStar on May 15, 2006 5:45 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

My $0.02
If Beane could have traded Watson to another club, he obviously would have done so instead of letting him walk away and head to Japan. Regardless of whether any of us think Watson "should have gotten his chance", if there was any team out there willing to give us something in return for him, Watson would have been shipped out.

So maybe Beane should have given Watson a shot, but then so should have the rest of the GM's throughout the majors. Obviously, that didn't happen, so he bolted for Japan. Cool, good luck to him. Doesn't seem like a huge deal to me.

by TempletonPeck on May 15, 2006 8:27 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

If anyone was going to give a player a chance
based entirely on his AAA production, it would have been the Oakland A's. No one's going to trade for a 28 year old career minor leaguer, they'd rather wait for him to become a FA.
Why yes. I am a ray of warm and fuzzy sunshine.

by grover on May 15, 2006 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry I came late to this dance
Big E, great diary. It inspired one o' me own.
Why yes. I am a ray of warm and fuzzy sunshine.

by grover on May 15, 2006 9:19 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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