"Built to Win" vs "Moneyball"

by bigelephant on May 1, 2006 12:13 PM PDT Comment 9 comments

I'm not sure if anyone on AN has yet to read John Schuerholz's new book-"Built to Win: Inside Stories and Leadership Strategies from Baseball's Winningest GM". Schuerholz wrote the book with Larry Guest. This fact alone makes this book different from the AN bible because, as WE all know, Billy DID NOT write "Moneyball". So one could probably say Moneyball was written with a more objective eye vs "Built to Win". However I've yet to read "Built to Win"-but I will be as soon as my order comes in.

Apparently, there are some good stories about how the Bravers almost traded for Bonds, how the Braves signed Maddox away from the Yankees etc, etc, etc. But what I'm really interested in is the contrast between the Braves' vs the A's philosophy of building teams.

The Braves have won 15 divisional titles, 1 W.S. title in 1995 and have arguably one of the best minor league systems, year-in/year-out. Last year the Braves started a 47 year old at 1st base who was playing in the Mexican League while having approx 15 rookies on the 25 man roster. They won their division-again.

I listened to a Schuerholz interview today and the dude is fascinating. In the interview he contributes a successful winning team to three things:

A successful minor league system.
A very stout scouting staff who beat the bushes with a very strong reliance on the scouting department for drafting for the minor league system.
A smart and successful Major League Manager who is a great teacher and a clever and gifted in game tactician. Bobby Cox, without a doubt, is a first ballot H of F.

So, it's Schuerholz's contention that if a MLB team possesses these three elements in their organization they too should be successful.

Humph! Do the A's? Are the A's "built to win". Who would you want as the A's GM: Beane vs Schuerholz?

Poll

Who do you prefer: Beane vs Schuerholz, or....

Beane

37 votes

Schuerholz

17 votes

Oaktoon

23 votes

77 votes | Poll has closed

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If I'm not mistaken,

the A's have (1) [successful minor league system] and (2) [lots of good scouts]. I would think that whether you rely heavily on statistics or not, you would want (1) and (2). That's not Moneyball or Built to Win, that's just good management.

As for (3)...

Can intangibles exist? Only the ones you can touch.

by salb918 on May 1, 2006 2:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Nice Post

There are a number of similarities or recurring themes as such. Differences in opinion regarding managers may be one of the issues here. Howe was not necessarily loved by Beane but Macha is no stooge either. I think many give too much power to Beane regarding his perception of a manager than fact. Beane was influenced by LaRussa and Alderson. When he was a player, I'm sure he appreciated their working relationship. I'm also sure this is what he idealize now. The fact that he brought Macha back was not an act of desperation but of wisdom. Macha knows this team better than every other manager out there. Would I have liked Leyland in Oakland? Yeah, but I doubt he would have come out here.

But how smart was Cox given he had a pitching coach (now removed) who anchored a staff that was blessed with 3 great pitchers. The difference b/w these 2 organizations is simply money. We couldn't keep what the Braves could. Would have Beane held onto Mulder and Hudson if he could have? Now, we'll never know but it made a difference for them.

The farm system is truly our leverage to keep us competitive. The Braves added one or two players a year b/c of such great stability starting with their staff. In this regard, we are just as competitive as them.

"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King

by Gerard on May 1, 2006 2:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Hey G,

I do believe that a manager may not win you many games but he can certainly lose you a bunch.

Plus, I'd agree that payroll should enter into the equation here. In '06 the Brave's payroll is around 92-93 mil and the A's around 63-64. Does that make the Brave's GM 30 miilion dollars smarter? Not necessarily. Many teams have spent big dollars but don't come close to the Brave's track record.

Nevertheless, I'd like to see Billy with another 25-30 million and see what team he can come up with.

"Bring Matt Watson Back to Oakland in '06"-The Committee is accepting new members. 04/18/06: G-11,AB-40,H-11,HR-3, RBI-11, OBP-.383,SLG-.575

by bigelephant on May 1, 2006 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly...

The Braves and A's are on two different levels. The Braves have more revenue from their cable superstation revenue, plus the did get a money kick from Turner Field. But that should never be used to diminish Shuerholz's accomplishments, however -- especially after how last year's youth-laden team performed. They just flat out know what they're doing.

Dorian on Bonds: "Still, I love it when Bonds wins at the game that he plays."

by FormerHuntsvilleStar on May 1, 2006 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh yeah, and Thing #4:

Great players. That helps.

Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, Jones, Jones, Lopez, Justice, Pendleton, and on and on.

Yeah, I'd say that counts for a lot.

I don't mind giving the coach credit, as Schuerholz does, but lord do the players matter a whole bunch more.

Thanks for the entry; it raises some very good points.

by RLangford on May 1, 2006 6:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

yeah but chipper, andruw, javy, justice, glavine

are all home grown and smoltz might as well be.

by larrysgurl on May 1, 2006 6:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

along with giles, and all the young guys they have

now. the braves don't have the money they used to. that is why they are relying on the young guys so much.

by larrysgurl on May 1, 2006 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Another key difference

Schuerholz has always made a point of how the braves reject one of the key moneyball arguments - thatyou should focus on college players in the draft. He claims that indoctrination in the braves system at a young age is the key to developing all this classy talent. Ironic that in the 05 draft when the a's went for a high school pitcher for the first time in forever, the braves went for college reliever, joey devine, stating specifically that they thought he could be the next huston street - yeah, that joey devine - the guy who gave up grand slams in his first two big league appearances....

The other key thing is that when you hear schuerholz talk about his accomplishments, his resentment of the cult of beane is palpable - it totally makes him nuts that people don't recognize he's the einstein of team-building, and i'm confident he put this book out to make his case - too bad his coauthor is no michael lewis....

by Joe Pye on May 2, 2006 7:11 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs