Et Tu, Huddy?

by Nico on Apr 8, 2006 1:53 PM PDT in News

Barry Zito isn't the only member of the Big 3 who is finding the number seven to be less than lucky.

In his first start of 2006, Tim Hudson was staked to a seven-run lead (8-1) after 4 innings but could not retire a hitter in the 5th before being yanked. Today, the Giants scored 7 runs before Huddy got the second out of the 2nd inning. Sound familiar? His fastball velocity, incidentally, has been 91-92 on the cutter and 93-95 on the two-seamer, so it's not a Loaiza "where's the velocity?" thing.

Feel free to use this thread to talk about why you think Huddy has struggled so much his first two starts, and how you see his career going in 2006-2008. Will he be an "ace"? Will he outpitch Zito? Will he outpitch Dan Haren? Joe Blanton? Dan Meyer?

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Huddy

Usually his problem isn't stuff it's just that he gets injured a lot with muscle pulls and the like.

I always thought that he was a little overrated, I wasn't that sad to see him go. As long as his velocity is still there this is probably just him getting off to a slow start, and not really something to worry about.

After watching last night's game I find it hard to believe anyone can outpitch Joe Blanton.

by Chavez4Prez on Apr 8, 2006 2:01 PM PDT reply actions

joe blanton cy young

over the past 2 years when the a's score more then a run he is 13-1, ya and the a's have a helluv a lineup this season.

by greekpride08 @ Athletics Nation on Apr 8, 2006 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions

I think the A's got his best years

by OaklandSi on Apr 8, 2006 2:03 PM PDT reply actions

Timely post on Huddie, etc.. You must be psychic

I was just about to post a comment on Hudson's struggles and how his ERA looks to be going higher than Zito's after today's showing. His speed seems to be there but his pitches must be too predictable since the Giants are hitting him up and down the lineup.

Again, at this stage, I'll take Harden, Haren & Blanton over Huddie, Mulder & Zito.

by Vegas Ace on Apr 8, 2006 2:04 PM PDT reply actions

Thanx Huddy for killing a nice parlay...

that I had going

"Baseball doesn't owe me a thing. I owe my whole life to baseball." ~ Kirby Puckett

by smith1051 on Apr 8, 2006 2:07 PM PDT reply actions

First pitch swings

The Giants are crushing the first pitch they see, which always seemed to hurt Huddy's gameplan. (vs. Boston 2004) He is best when he gets ahead of a batter and they subsequently chase the splitter.

I agree that the A's had his best years (2002, 2003). He will continue to be good, but no longer an ace. Haren, Blanton, and Harden will all do better in 2006 IMO.

"ET TU, DAMON?" 4/4

by FireballerHARDEN on Apr 8, 2006 2:10 PM PDT reply actions

Mechanics

This is Huddys problem. It always has been, but he was younger with the A's and his body could bounce back faster from his delivery. He started getting hurt his last two seasons in Oakland and Beane saw the writing on the wall. He is still a very good pitcher, but he will fight off injury for the rest of his career unless he gives up the "bulldog" mentality of overpowering hitters and gets more creative. He's got a great mentor in Smoltz. Too bad Maddux is gone, Huddy could have learned a lot from him. Kerry Wood needs to pick Maddux's brain because he's in the same position as Huddy. Their bodies aren't built to hold up the power that they think they still possess.

Lou Brock was a great base stealer, but today, I am the greatest! - Rickey Henderson

by haren4prez on Apr 8, 2006 2:13 PM PDT reply actions

good points

wonder if the pitching coaches for the Braves and Cubs have figured this out

by OaklandSi on Apr 8, 2006 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions

A's staff also plays half of their games in a much

more forgiving ballpark.

Lou Brock was a great base stealer, but today, I am the greatest! - Rickey Henderson

by haren4prez on Apr 8, 2006 2:14 PM PDT reply actions

is that so?

i believe both the braves and the a's are considered to have neutral parks.

and of course the a's are in the AL, which has the DH and is generally considered to be stronger.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Apr 8, 2006 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions

and of course

his two starts this year have been @LAD and @SF, and neither of those are exactly hitters parks.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Apr 8, 2006 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions

I think that Oakland is

way more forgiving to pitchers than Atlanta is based on foul territory alone. We can't put everything behind the ballparks, there are a lot more variables there. Some ballparks are canyons and some are bandboxes. I do believe that Oakland did help to keep Huddy's era down. It was also mentioned that he had a stellar defense behind him. I'm not giving up on him for the season, but I do believe his dominating years are behind him unless he starts to get more creative on the mound.

"Using technology to clean up the mess made by technology doesn't seem too intelligent." ~George Carlin

by haren4prez on Apr 8, 2006 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions

Like a lot of good pitchers,

if you want to beat him, get to him early, but if he gets some early runs and gets out of the first few innings, Huddy can still be tough. I do agree that the injury situation could plague him for years, unless he figures out a way to get by more on guile than guts.

by sslinger on Apr 8, 2006 2:20 PM PDT reply actions

Remember when Jeter hit .190 in April?

And everyone started writing his eulogy? Well, I guess we forgot how that turned out. Or when Pedro got lit up on opening day two years ago and everyone said it was the end of the Pedro era? Or when everyone last year posted ten times a day about what a mistake it was to keep Chavez? How many games does it take for us to forget that Tim Hudson is a very good baseball player and that Marco Scutaro is not? Four or five, usually.

Wait until Huddy has another bad outing or four before we write him off as washed up.

by Nick86 on Apr 8, 2006 2:23 PM PDT reply actions

Not saying he's washed up

just pointing out that he might not be elite as long as he tries to work out of jams by overpowering hitters. He's still a VERY good pitcher, but the question was if he is going to be as effective as our young staff this year, and that was what was being addressed. He's far from washed up, but with his injury track record over the last few years and the fact that he doesn't have 25 yards of foul territory on either side of the diamond anymore might lead one to believe that his "elite" type years might be behind him. But hey, I'll tip my hat to you in October when Huddy has 22 wins and a Cy Young under his arm.

Lou Brock was a great base stealer, but today, I am the greatest! - Rickey Henderson

by haren4prez on Apr 8, 2006 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions

Nobody's writing him off, Nick86,

and I'm certainly not when I ask whether people think he'll be an ace, a good pitcher, or an ok pitcher for the next 3 years. Ace is a perfectly good answer. BUT...he hasn't had an ace year for a while (largely due to injuries) and so while he was one of my favorite A's in the 2000s era (and I still basically root for him and Tejada), he is not on a good trend the past 2+ seasons.

My take is that he has really suffered for throwing the splitter so much less and the cutter so much more--since he started doing that, his K/9IP numbers have dropped a lot, and with it his overall success has dropped a notch as well.

My theory: the splitter was harder on his oblique than the cutter is (don't know if it should be), and so he has adjusted his repertoire to try to stay healthier--but without great results in either the stat or the health department. Just a theory, though.

by Nico on Apr 8, 2006 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions

Are the Giants really this good??

Sub-question: Is there anyone in the National League that can compete with the AL?? I mean, I understand the Cardinals argument, but they did not stack up against Boston in '04 (and their pitching is not as good this year). They lost to Houston last year in the ALCS, who, in turn, lost to Chicago in quick fashion in the WS '05 (and lost Clemens in the offseason).
I guess the Giants are in a spot where they have to hope their young pitchers continue to go as well as they have, and get good starts from Schmidt and Morris. Can't believe they finally figured out the importance of pitching. Too bad Barry is old enough that it may be too late. Even more reason to love the situation in Oakland, even though we aren't competing in the NL West.

by mattclif on Apr 8, 2006 2:32 PM PDT reply actions

The years

Hudson had in Oakland were incredible and it would be hard for any pitcher to top the numbers he put up 92-39. He gave the team some much needed grit and determination. I still find it hard to believe that Miggy and him could not win a championship. haren4prez has it right. Hudson is just not big enough to take the wear and tear on his body to be a power pitcher. I hope Hudson figures out how to win 300 games. He was a joy to watch in Oakland and I will always root for him except aganist the A's.

by natsirt on Apr 8, 2006 2:35 PM PDT reply actions

Loved

the Et Tu, Damon banner in the outfield for Tuesday's game, BTW.

by sslinger on Apr 8, 2006 2:36 PM PDT reply actions

Huddy is a bulldog

All things being equal (health and salary) I would take him over any pitcher on the A's except maybe Harden.

He's my favorite all-time A's pitcher because I know that when he was on the mound, he wanted to win more than anyone else in the stadium.

But all things aren't equal. He has injury issues and makes a lot of $. So I'm okay with him being on another team...

by signmebilly on Apr 8, 2006 2:39 PM PDT reply actions

Poor Huddy. :-(

Tim Hudson is my all-time favorite Athletic other than Rickey, and seeing this is just breaking my heart. :-( That man provided some extraordinary games in the green-and-gold. He's got the soul of a power pitcher, ain't right that his body has dealt him such a poor hand.

Definitely agree with Fireballer about how the Giants are jumping on him early in the ABs -- without getting to really use that splitter to mess with 'em, he's gonna get mauled.

And watching him... honestly, I'm confused. The results are definitely one of those 'pre-DL trip' starts of his, and the BB/K for the game seem to be the same, but there's nothing in watching him pitch that really looks like his oblique (if nothing else, at least it's normally damn apparently when he's about to go on the DL). Hmm.

I believe in Tim Hudson. I don't know if I could stop, even if I wanted to.

"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."

by Kyli on Apr 8, 2006 2:46 PM PDT reply actions

bulldog?

i've been watching and commenting on his rather unimpressive outing already:
http://www.athleticsnation.com/comments/2006/4/8/124552/7906/24#24

huddy gave up 8 runs in 4 innings today and his ERA only went up from 11.25 to 12.38...

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Apr 8, 2006 2:48 PM PDT reply actions

That's the kind of consistency I want...

in my starter :-).

I think Huddy will be fine, if he can ever figure out how to stay healthy. We need to wait about three more weeks until we can start drawing some decent conclusions on how guys like Huddy (and Zito, Loaiza, etc.) will do this year.

There's a perception problem with him right now. The hype for him as part of the "Big Three" got so intense, it made him sound like an even better pitcher than the extremely good one he is. There's a distinction between Tim Hudson-good and Pedro-good. He was never the latter, even in Oakland, but was still better than 90% of the league. And if he can stay healthy, he could be again.

"The first night, we were right there," Bradley said. "All we needed was a couple of touchdowns, and we would have had them."

by jeepers on Apr 8, 2006 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions

A large part of Hudson's value

was not only his quality pitching, but the lots and lots of quality pitching. His economy with his pitches was legendary, averaging about 14.5 pitches per inning. From 2001-2003 he had a 3.02 ERA and ate between 235-240 innings each year. He also had the pleasure of pitching in front of some of the best infield defenses of the league.

How many pitchers pitched more innings than Huddy between 2001 and 2003? Try zero. More than Bartolo, Buehrle, Vazquez, Schilling, and - yes - the rubber-armed Livan Hernandez.

If Hudson is now a 3.50 ERA pitcher, he would still have a ton of value if he were still a 240-inning starter. I think those days are over, and Hudson will put up "only" around 200 innings in his healthiest years. This doesn't make him a bad pitcher, but with a low K-rate and shaky health, Billy Beane ultimately sold "high" on Hudson.

(He also bought "high" on Cruz, Meyer, and Thomas, but that's another story altogether.)

Copernicus felt the same way about the geocentric crew.

by salb918 on Apr 8, 2006 2:50 PM PDT reply actions

(Disclaimer:

Tim Hudson is my second favorite Athletic of the Beane era, behind Scott Hatteberg.)

Copernicus felt the same way about the geocentric crew.

by salb918 on Apr 8, 2006 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions

Well said salb918

"Using technology to clean up the mess made by technology doesn't seem too intelligent." ~George Carlin

by haren4prez on Apr 8, 2006 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions

the hudson trade

is looking less terrible all the time.

it seems like thomas may never contribute for the mlb club.
cruz sucked, and then got us halsey. he isn't that impressive, but it's still something.
meyer may still amount to something if he's recovered. we'll see.

but huddy was paid a lot more than those three combined last year, so at the very least we got some money.

we would have had huddy for one more year, and saarloos did just fine in his spot in the rotation last year (haren replaced mulder, blanton was here either way).
whether or not saarloos got lucky, the fact is huddy wasn't a whole lot better than saarloos.

as of now, the worst beane trade may once again be jeremy bonderman....

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Apr 8, 2006 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions

No Doubt!

"Using technology to clean up the mess made by technology doesn't seem too intelligent." ~George Carlin

by haren4prez on Apr 8, 2006 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions

Lilly

We did get Lilly in that trade. I remember that guy making a very meaningful contribution while he was in Oakland. If it hadn't been for some of the worst baserunning in post season history Lilly would be emembered quite fondly for leading the A's past the Red Sox with a sensational Game 3 pitching performance in 2003. Who knows how far they would have gone that year.

by Larry E on Apr 8, 2006 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions

no question

without lilly, we don't make the playoffs that year, plus he pitched well against the red sox.

but bonderman is bonderman.
replace 1-2 other prospects instead of him in that trade, and imagine what the rotation would be like with bonderman instead of 7 million dollar man loaiza...

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Apr 8, 2006 6:54 PM PDT up reply actions

BTW I HATE Gnat fans

giving Bonds a standing O everytime he steps to the plate or takes the field? BARF!

"Using technology to clean up the mess made by technology doesn't seem too intelligent." ~George Carlin

by haren4prez on Apr 8, 2006 3:06 PM PDT reply actions

I'm wondering how long it will take

before he heads to the DL with another oblique problem.

To me, Hudson is still a quality pitcher. But he's having that age-old problem for sinker ballers in that his pitchers are getting too high. Plus, I'm not sure whether anyone has realized this, but players are taking a patient approach on the splitter. If Huddy isn't getting people to fruitlessly swing at the split as it drops off the table, he's going to get hammered. If I remember correctly, in 2003 against Anaheim, they had figured it out and laid off his splitter and drew more walks against him than they were accustomed to taking.

As for what I expect him to be...I expect him to be a good pitcher who will most certainly be much better this year. I wouldn't be surprised if he finishes the year 13-10 with a 3.8-3.90 ERA with 190 IP.

by Tyler Bleszinski on Apr 8, 2006 3:28 PM PDT reply actions

Agree, Blez, but also

per my comment above, Huddy doesn't throw the splitter as much anymore, and since he started throwing the cutter more and the splitter less, his overall effectiveness has not improved and his health has not improved, while his K/9IP rate has dropped substantially.

He has the tools (power sinker, changeup, command) to adjust to the adjustments, yet lately his command and his cutter--which Huddy may have fallen in love with more than warranted--have been betraying him more and more.

by Nico on Apr 8, 2006 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions

i think

huddy's future may be as a closer. he can crank it to 95 when he wants, and back that up with 1 or 2 quality out pitches(whatever's working best that day), keeps the ball in the park, gets alot of ground balls. plus he's just got that mean ass "i'm gonna win and you're gonna lose" thing going on, which is essential for a good closer.

by Backspin on Apr 8, 2006 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions

Hey, it's obvious Beane saw something special...

in Harden, Blanton, Meyer, and Haren enough to let Huddy and Mulder go. These guys are going to be better than the first Big 3 could have ever been. I loved Hudson's grit and determination, but he is not as smart as Harden or as crafty. Just my opinion. BTW anybody shlepping up to Seattle on Sunday?

by A'sfansince1970 on Apr 8, 2006 4:33 PM PDT reply actions

If he started using

the splitter more again, I think Huddy as a closer could be a great idea. No, he doesn't have a classic closer's repertoire. But he has Bob Wickman's mentality, and twice the stuff. If the oblique would respond better to 1 inning stints 4 times/week than to 100 pitches every 5 days, I think it's a very smart idea.

by Nico on Apr 8, 2006 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions

and

since the braves have no closer, it may be something we see after one or two more mid summer oblique strains.

by Backspin on Apr 8, 2006 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions

Yup.

Bobby Cox, 2005-06: "Let's see...Danny Kolb, Chris Reitsma, Joey Devine, Oscar Villereal...Huddy? Keep talking, I'm listening."

by Nico on Apr 8, 2006 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions

amazingly enough

thats an even scarier series of guys that our rhodes-dotel "experiment." how great is it to not have to worry about the 0th inning for oh, about 5 years?

by Backspin on Apr 8, 2006 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions

Or the 9th, even.

by Nico on Apr 8, 2006 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions

dam.n 9

being right next to the 0 key :)

by Backspin on Apr 8, 2006 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions

It would be a misallocation

of talent to let Hudson close.

But if going to relief is what keeps him healthy -- and I don't think we're anywhere near that point -- I think Hudson would be an awesome bullpen fireman. Bring him in the 6th inning with two on and nobody out, let him go for anywhere between 1 and 3+ innings, and you might just have yourself Goose Gossage v. 2. He'd be twice as valuable as a true closer could ever dream to be.

It's something that I think the Cubs should do with Kerry Wood if it is determined that going to the bully is the only way to keep him healthy.

Copernicus felt the same way about the geocentric crew.

by salb918 on Apr 8, 2006 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions

The closer that

your description most reminds me of: Rollie Fingers.

by Nico on Apr 8, 2006 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions

On the other hand...

Huddy would look awfully ugly with that mustache.

JediLeroy, can you superimpose the 'stache on Huddy's face?

Copernicus felt the same way about the geocentric crew.

by salb918 on Apr 8, 2006 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions

<shrug>

So would Rollie.

by Nico on Apr 8, 2006 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions

Oh god.

Was Huddy the one who said he'd love to grow a 'stache like that?

AUGH.

"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."

by Kyli on Apr 9, 2006 1:09 AM PDT up reply actions

Great thread....

I have the same question of every Hudson start - did he have the splitter tonite? I've always thought it was a matter if he had it that night, rather than did he choose to use it. It can be such a devastating putaway pitch, it's hard to believe that he just puts it on the shelf. He seemed to stop featuring it consistently his last season here.

I agree that the book is well known on him. He wants to get ahead and get you to chase the split in the dirt. If you can lay off, it makes him work. But, when the split is good, it just falls off the table - it doesn't seem to matter if guys are looking for it.

One of my favorite memories is of that great game he pitched in Seattle in September of 2000. The A's headed into that series 4 games back, and left just one out. We had a house full of guys all yelling "Throw the Split" every time he got a 2 strike count. And he did.

That led, of course, to that fabulous and glorious last Sunday of the 2000 season....still one of my favorite days, and favorite calls, at the ballpark, "Strike 3 called - the A's win the West!"

by BleacherDave on Apr 8, 2006 8:55 PM PDT reply actions

I was at the Giants?Braves game today.

I am going tomorrow too. Hudson has had two terrible starts. I am wondering if he has a nagging injury and that might be the problem.

BTW...I am so jealous of that park. Everytime I am there it makes me heartsick that we don't have a park like that.

by IM4Oakgal on Apr 8, 2006 9:04 PM PDT reply actions

On the other hand...

Mulder hit a two-run bomb today.

"He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Apr 10, 2006 10:57 PM PDT reply actions

Hudson

Was the ultimate warrior. Saying that he is not as smart or as crafty as Harden is simply untrue. Harden has better stuff but isn't half the pitcher Hudson was in his A's career so far. Actually, I take that back; he's right on par for injuries.

As for Hudson's Braves career...give me Harden all day.

"He has no equivalent." -Paul DePodesta on Jeremy Brown

by flipgatey3 on Apr 10, 2006 10:59 PM PDT reply actions