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to all the carpetbaggers

I am so tired of all the leave Oakland coming from all sides; all the time.

Lew Wolff a (St. Loius Cardinal fan) is trying to move my OAKLAND ATHLETICS out of Oakland.

Blez wants them in Sac-town.

Upper middle-class folks who buy the myth about Oakland being "dangerous", support Wolf.

And I pick up my morning paper and that "whore" Johnny Damon is openly talking about Barry Zito being ready for New York (Yankees or Mets).

I also read Swisher running his mouth about the third deck at the coliseum. How the hell would he know how good third deck seats are/were?

The problem with the A's is a lack of Oaklanders involved in the process.

I love my A's, but it's like having a "hot" girlfriend and she's listening to all offers.

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if you're an oaklander
we live in a democracy, elect oakland politicians who want to build them a new ballpark and keep the team in oakland.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Apr 4, 2006 4:09 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Unfortunately
none of them care. Nacho said this weekend that its a done deal - the A's are leaving. Nobody's even trying to keep them. As an Oaklander, it breaks my heart.

by tempest in a d cup on Apr 4, 2006 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I spoke with his staff after Dellums said it..
at the debate this weekend (Here), and was told the same thing I have been told repeatedly.

The position remains the same. They feel they have made more than a good faith effort to deal with Wolff, and that he is not interested, and there is nothing more to be done.

by tempest in a d cup on Apr 4, 2006 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

well then
perhaps some of this dude's anger should be directed towards those people instead of towards wolff, blez, and the middle class.
A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Apr 4, 2006 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What You Are Saying Is
...in your commment, "The problem with the A's is a lack of Oaklanders involved in the process." What Gertrude Stein once said. "There is no there there." Her comment in this case can be used to describe the politicos that don't have intiestinal fortitude or maybe even the leadership to make a difference.
   I think, and you can find many of them on AN, that is Oaklanders who care very, very deeply about this team. I spent a great part of my life growing up in near downtown Oakland and the A's/Raiders/Warriors were a big part of that. The sad part today relates to the political set-up which has virtually left the A's in a quagmire that may never be solved. Hence, the status quo, at this point appears to be the best any one can expect.
"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King

by Gerard on Apr 4, 2006 4:38 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Wolffish price tag too high for Oakland pols
Wolff's been pretty clear:  he needs land which includes non-ballpark development rights.  He estimates the value of the rights at $300 million, beyond land acquisition costs.  His profit rate presumably will be a lot more than that (or else why do the deal).

Oakland pols have been less clear, but fairly consistent:  that's too much to pay, when we could sell these rights to someone else at market rates just as easily, and use the money for X Y or Z pressing need.

I want Wolff to bring his price tag down, because maybe an Oakland deal gets done at $100-200 mill instead.  But he won't lower the bar, because he believes someone else will pay it.  To fault Oakland pols for not offering more than they can afford seems askew.

Defeat d'Anaheim!

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Apr 4, 2006 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
I think the whole 'baseball village' is the hefty price tag that no A's fan wants; I know, I know, ATT Park has a wiffle ball park for the kids, but ya know, the kids should be paying attention to the game - Dad, get in there!

I want a no nonsense park, not a convenient TGI Fridays or an expensive sneaker store that connects to the park.

by popcornjames on Apr 4, 2006 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But what you're missing..
...is that a baseball village won't just offer expensive snacks and games on game day, it'll give the area a reason to be outside of those days. It's an entire community development, which brings in transit, retail, tourism, residents - the works.

And having just seen the Col for the first time this past weekend, if ever there was an area that could use this sort of development, Oakland is it.

Don't you miss the days of martinis and greenies?

by Ozzz on Apr 5, 2006 1:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why oh why
have they not explored a modified Phoenix model that places a .25 or .50 percent sales tax on all rental car and hotel room revenue in Oakland for a designated period of time (don't know how long it would take, vertigo?) in order to finance 2/3 of the project with the team picking up the rest?  By and large they will not be hurting its own citizens in the wallet.  Stick it to the visitors, Oakland Airport is hardly a secondary option for domestic flights anymore and people will not change their plans because of it.  At spring training one year returning the car I said wtf at that line item but quickly figured it was a pretty good idea.

by southofcruiseamerica on Apr 4, 2006 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's go with this
Say you're right an Oakland could come through with a site that nets Wolff $200 million. What site would that be? Let's look at real estate that was available even last year.
  1. Coliseum North (66th-to-High) - That would be two-thirds of the area instead of the whole thing. Why would negotiating with 40 owners be any easier than negotiating with 80? And would having a bunch of dreary industrial stuff right next to residential be attractive?
  2. Oakland Army Base - Oakland doesn't really control the land as much as they can direct development. Should it have been available, they'd be in Oakland, but they'd be away from BART and close to a high-traffic area. Plus the time required to acquire and clean up the land could stretch the development time two years minimum.
  3. Oak Knoll - Residents will come down with torches and pitchforks. No way it would happen.
  4. Uptown - Even if the Forest City deal weren't sealed, more nearby land would be required to make the village concept work. Probably 7-8 city blocks.
That leaves one location that could have been available: Broadway Auto Row. If willing partners were available among local businesses, it could have worked, though not quickly. Either Oakland or Alameda County would have needed to subsidize the land.

I agree that the deck was stacked against Oakland. But I also think that a solution wasn't readily available even if Wolff had scaled down his vision.

by vertig0 on Apr 4, 2006 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the meaty reply
As always.  No doubt that if there must be a village with the park then Oakland's options shrink.  But the site options are further limited by the immediate Wolff timeline.  If he had instead given Oakland even two years instead of 5-10 months, then the site list could be longer.  Auto Row to be sure, Laney might re-emerge, Homebase as a part of a larger parking lot plan.  But the combo--Lew's high price tag and immediate deadline--made Oakland's chore pretty much impossible.
Defeat d'Anaheim!

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Apr 4, 2006 11:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My frustration with Oakland
It's not the lack of options, but the city government is not playing the political game.  They are not making a move from Oakland costly to the A's.

If it is not costly to move the A's out of Oakland, then Wolff will move the A's out of Oakland.

They should have unilaterally created their own solution just like Wolff did, and they should be doing everything in their power to create drama to help convert every A's fan to the Giants if the A's leave Oakland.

They aren't doing that, they're just letting it happen.

"It was an incredible catch, but I didn't really like his footwork." - Ken Macha

by secret ASian man on Apr 4, 2006 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perfect location for a stadium
Within the new Oak to Ninth development. Old Kaiser Convention Center location. The city and developers involved in the project are willing and eager to work with this space, Wolff won't negotiate.

by tempest in a d cup on Apr 5, 2006 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Were they really?
There was open space at O29, but if that space were occupied by a ballpark the environmentalists and NIMBY's would have screamed bloody murder. A 12-story high (not counting lights) edifice covering up views of the shoreline? I doubt that Signature would have given up much of the land just for a ballpark unless they were allowed to build towers and that wasn't going to happen.

HJK isn't big enough, and preservationists would have been up in arms.

by vertig0 on Apr 5, 2006 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, the preservations would be angry
But the thing is, there is absolutely no use for the space. The only thing on the table for it is to move the main library there, which would be a terrible move for the library. They need to be more in downtown, not further away.

The main thing is, the preservationists are already furious about the whole project (because they hate Oakland or something - I just don't get it), so I'm not too concerned about them. Signature is going to get their 3100-units either way, and they're willing to deal about splitting up the land to accomodate a stadium.

Developing the land might block views to the waterfront, but having something there will actually open up access and encourage use, which is by far preferable to me as a resident. Why just look at the land when you could be enjoying it?

The deal seems dead due to lack of interest from Wolff, but if he would get on board, I think the city could deal with the fallout. I'd like to try anyway.

I'm somewhat tangetially involved in this, so if there's any developments, I'll post as much as I can here.

by tempest in a d cup on Apr 5, 2006 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Timing was the issue
The Signature-O29 deal was pretty complex and had all sorts of legal issues to work out regarding the Tidelands Trust, land swaps, toxic cleanup, not to mention the Estuary planning guidelines.

If Wolff had aggressively pursued any and all Oakland locations when he first got the VP gig, he could have brokered a deal with Signature. By the time the draft EIR came out last year, it was probably too late.

Was Wolff not quick enough on the draw or stalling until all Oakland opportunities dried up? That's subject to interpretation.

by vertig0 on Apr 5, 2006 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I read earlier that Wolff is already talking...
To Cisco about getting the Pacific Commons site. I'm pretty sure that if he gets it then Fremont will get the A's

by breedingewoks on Apr 4, 2006 4:58 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

i am ok with the stadium being in fremont
oakland, berkeley, alameda, emeryville or anywhere else that is in a 20 mile radius of the existing stadium.  please tho, DO NOT CHANGE THE NAME!!!  i can't believe we may become the Oakland Athletics of Fremont.  but no san jose, no sacramento and no leaving california.  keep the name lew. :-)
"Oakland is home, and you always want to go home. Anytime you get the chance, you're happy to go home." - #24 Rickey Henderson

by burnone on Apr 4, 2006 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure
I'm sure the city of Fremont would be overjoyed to give free publicity to the city that, unlike them, didn't want to pony up for a new ballpark.

by OaktownTribesman on Apr 4, 2006 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You bet they would.
Faced with a choice of that or not having the ballpark, they'll take the Arlington option without a question.
Don't you miss the days of martinis and greenies?

by Ozzz on Apr 5, 2006 1:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

arlington's team...
doesn't advertise a competing city.
I'm not sober.

by white rob on Apr 5, 2006 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes they do.
They advertise every city in Texas.

But hey, I'm sure Oakland will be keen to get rid of those Golden State Warriors, since they don't have Oakland's name...

Don't you miss the days of martinis and greenies?

by Ozzz on Apr 5, 2006 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i'm tired of folks baggin' on Oakland
I guess that's the trend ... everyone is runnin' to the burbs...

Fremont - land fills, strip malls, and a MLB stadium!

yipee!!

by GrewUpAtTheColiseum on Apr 4, 2006 10:41 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

And I'm tired of folks baggin' on Fremont!
What has Oakland done to keep the A's?

Nothing.

All of the proposals by members of the Oakland City Coucil were half hearted attempts.  If Wolff made an impossible request, then make a counter-offer.  That's something they never did.  They just sat on Wolff's offer.  If they wanted to keep the A's they should of at least done something and said, "Hey Lew, we can't accomodate your request, why don't we meet in the middle?"

Don't get me wrong, the A's belong in Oakland, but what happens if Oakland doesn't accomodate them?

You used a boyfriend/girlfriend analogy when describe the situation with Oakland and the A's.  I see it more like this:

The A's are a nice guy who is yearning for the affections of this girl, Oakland.  Now she isn't the best looking girl out there, but she nice and perfect for the A's. Problem is, the girl habitually goes out with assholes who don't give a damn about her, in this case, the Raiders.  Sooner or later something gives.

I want the A's to stay in Oakland, but the way Oakland has been treating our A's I won't lose a single moments worth of sleep if they skip town, especially if that town's Fremont.  I think in Fremont, the A's have the best chance of maintaining at least some semblance of the way it was in Oakland, unlike in San Jose.

Pacific Commons is right off of 880 in the middle of an industrial district (no matter how much housing Wolff puts there it's still going to be an industrial district).  It has views of the hills and is near the wetlands of the San Francisco Bay.  Doesn't it sound like... the current Coliseum site?

"It was an incredible catch, but I didn't really like his footwork." - Ken Macha

by secret ASian man on Apr 4, 2006 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I heard Oakland did respond
I heard the City of Oakland did respond, counter offer, and trade ideas with Wolff after last August's stadium kickoff.  A lot.  They just didn't do it in public.  Then Lew stopped returning calls.  And talking about Fremont.  And sending messages through the press.  That's what I heard.
Defeat d'Anaheim!

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Apr 4, 2006 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

From who?
A friend of a friend?

The reality is that, if they really wanted to keep the A's, they'd have done more than made a couple of phone calls.

It's in Wolff's best interests to stay, if the city will work with him, but so far they don't seem interested.

Eventually you have to say time's up.

Don't you miss the days of martinis and greenies?

by Ozzz on Apr 5, 2006 1:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

They made plenty of effort
to work with him to get a stadium into the Oak to Ninth project - there was a lot of effort put into that from the City side and from the developers already involved in the project. I know this because I am somewhat involved with this project. It would have been a great location - right near a BART stop, already tons of people living nearby, tons more on the way - Wolff was simply not interested. That's why nobody in Oakland politics is making keeping the A's an issue - his response to their efforts has indicated that he has no intention of staying, no matter what they do.

by tempest in a d cup on Apr 5, 2006 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

it was a bit odd
wolff does a big show, unveiling the whole bp village in the midst of our hot streak last year. oakland pols in attendance, they had to know what was up. then all of the sudden, things are fizzling. first it was our stars leaving town, now the whole team. i'm from marin, but grew up going to A's games and those are among the best memories I have from those times and that is what keeps me such a fan today. I would be completely happy if the team stayed there forever. I'm also a raiders fan and yet i understand that they (see al davis) are the ones who remodelled the place and chased the a's out of town. soon oakland may only have the warriors, and sadly, i have become a lakers fan since moving down here. that being said, i'll always hate hte angel's/dodgers. but i'm not so vain that i can't marvel and vin scully and dodger stadium, even if they have whored it out a bit.
A's Raiders Ducks

by mcbronsh on Apr 5, 2006 12:49 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

oakland pols must weigh
the cost of stadium development with the fact that that city is fortunate to have an nfl and mlb franchise, and that if it leaves it will never come back there again. so however bad it may be, they must consider the alternative.
A's Raiders Ducks

by mcbronsh on Apr 5, 2006 12:52 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Here's what I don't get.
I roll through Oakland on BART from San Fran, where every piece of conceivably useful land is taken with a housing or retail structure, and when I get to Oakland all I see, right the way to the ballpark, is warehouses, auto body shops, junkyards, factories (that are closing), downtrodden housing and run down retail.

You give me a week and a check book, I'll come back with room for a ballpark, on BART, with room to grow.

How it's impossible to do such a thing in Oakland, when the Giants seemed to manage it in a city where land costs ridiculous amounts and is in scarce supply, is really beyond me.

I mean, seriously, is the owner of the Pick-a-Part really so fond of his location that he wouldn't take $100k to move elsewhere?

Don't you miss the days of martinis and greenies?

by Ozzz on Apr 5, 2006 1:34 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

A-freakin-men
Nothing that could be fixed with a couple of bulldozers, and a piece of paper that says "Eminent Domain"  The problem in Oakland though is bigger than this.  This is a city that survived the Dot-Com bubble unscathed (i.e. still a slum)  During 2000-2001, you were paying $200/sq foot for real estate everywhere in the bay area EXCEPT Oakland.  In the middle of the greatest creation of wealth in human history, Oakland managed to keep empty office space with "for lease" signs everywhere.  On property adjacent to BART & Downtown.  

Why???  Because Oakland's government is controlled by special interests who want to prevent the gentrification of the ghetto.  So all money is bad, except for Federal housing subsidies.  No you look a Lew Wolff's plan, and what you get is gentrification, which is anathema to the vibe.  Basically, Oakland is saying, We want our wretched conditions & the Raiders...to hell with the rest.

"HOLY TOLEDO!" Bill King

by 510inDenver on Apr 5, 2006 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure where you're getting this info
I work in commercial real estate. Oakland commands higher class A office rents than San Francisco and has a significantly lower vacancy rate in office space. Warehouse space frequently sells for over $150/square foot.

Have you been to Oakland? I live here, and it is certainly not a slum.

On a ranking of average home values, Oakland ranks #4 in the entire country for cities over 250,000. Oakland is the #11th wealthiest city in the country. We have less of every type of crime, both in real numbers, and per capita, than San Francisco.

Have you been downtown? Have you been to Oakland? You have no idea what you're talking about.

by tempest in a d cup on Apr 5, 2006 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i call bullsh!t
sf vs. oakland: 2005 murders per capita

Oakland
409,300 residentss (in 2004)
94 murders in 2005
22.96 murders per 100,000 residents

San Francisco
744,230 residents (in 2005)
96 murders in 2005
12.90 murders per 100,000 residents

I'm not sober.

by white rob on Apr 5, 2006 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He did say 2004.
Has there been an explosion of population to the order of 40% since?
Don't you miss the days of martinis and greenies?

by Ozzz on Apr 5, 2006 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also
SF did have more murders as far as real numbers go, and for years, murder is the only type of crime that SF has had less of per capita than Oakland. Furthermore, Oakland's murders virtually all take place in the exact same handful of locations.

by tempest in a d cup on Apr 5, 2006 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

same handful of locations?
perhaps you could forward these locations to the OPD.  sounds like we can get Oakland's murder problem wrapped up before the weekend.
I'm not sober.

by white rob on Apr 5, 2006 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Look at a crime map
Half of the murders in Oakland happen on the same 3 streetcorners. Its been this way for years.

by tempest in a d cup on Apr 5, 2006 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Knock down street corners.
Put up a stadium.
Don't you miss the days of martinis and greenies?

by Ozzz on Apr 5, 2006 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

ummm yeah
I grew up in the Bay Area, and only moved out of Oakland last May.  If you read my post, I was specifically refering to the rates during the boom.  Of course Real-Estate has bounced in Oakland... people are willing to live in 'da hood to avoid commuting from Livermore and beyond.  As far as not being a slum, well its seems you need to get out of downtown and look around.  Drive down MacArthur or Foothill or International (because E 14th St had a poor reputation) and tell me how lovely it is.  Just keep going until you hit San Leandro.  

Why did I move?  Like I'm gonna put my kids in school there.  Get real.  I have 2 friends on the OPD (one a Captain, the other a Deputy Chief) and I know what the crime stats are. I also know how much time those officers spend doing silly stuff instead of the virually impossible job of cleaning up the city.

I'm sure its rating among the wealthiest cities would bump up too if Oakland re-annexed Piedmont, But lets ask ourselves, why did Piedmont go solo?  So if you want to think of Oakland as being Oakland Hills and areas north of the $1mil mark fine.  But when a 2 Bdrm, 1 Ba, 900 sq foot Bungalow on a 1/10th of an Acre goes for $500K (2 blocks off of MacArthur & Foothill!) you KNOW Gentrification is GOING to happen.  But instead of embracing it, Oakland is damned and determined to keep low-income areas low-income.  Look at that ridiculous waste of taxpayer money on MLK over on the west-side.  When Oakland has some of the highest property taxes in the Bay Area, and city continually mismanages to cater to special interests, it is no wonder that the A's get treated as an ugly step-child.

Just my $.02.

Oh, and P.S. I am NOT anti-affordable housing.  What I am anti- is the restrictions on landlords raising rents to perform needed property improvements.  I am anti- putting perls on a sow, when roads need work, schools are in the dump, and civic pride is low.

"OH MY GOD!, You Cloned Kennedy, you BASTARDS!" (Anonymous ANer on seeing Brad Halsey)

by 510inDenver on Apr 5, 2006 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Last time I checked
East 1-4 around Fruitvale was VIBRANT economically.

by BleacherDave on Apr 5, 2006 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't really understand what you're saying
But lets ask ourselves, why did Piedmont go solo?

What are you talking about? Piedmont was never part of Oakland. I doubt that their choice to incorporate themselves in 1907 had anything to do with thinking Oakland was a slum.

I also think that East 14th (which nobody calls International, by the way) and MacArthur are pretty poor choices of streets to use as an example of a slum. They're just neighborhoods. It suggests to me that you haven't been there recently. East 14th is so flourishing economically that they actually have a negative retail vacancy rate. Its doing fabulous.

I really don't know why you persist in referring to Oakland as "da hood." If you want to discount the hills area from your perceptions of the city, you're ignoring a large chunk of the population as well as a large geographic chunk. There are certainly bad neighborhoods in Oakland, just as there are in SF and every other large city.

I don't understand why you say that Oakland is determined to keep low-income areas low-income. Especially when you cite the skyrocketing property values in the same sentence. Your argmuent makes zero sense to me.

What landlord restrictions are you talking about? Compared to neighboring cities, Oakland is practically a landlord's fantasyland. We have much fewer rent restrictions than Berkeley or SF.

by tempest in a d cup on Apr 5, 2006 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let me clarify...
Oakland City policies fight AGAINST what the economy is doing.  Istead of looking at economic realities in the Bay Area, rises in rents in Oakland are characterized as "Ethnic Cleansing" and the new renters are "Moneyed Yuppies."  What is a simple fact of economics is characyerized as racism.

As far as "How I see Oakland"  My pretty poor example is based on my experiences of WHERE I LIVED.  When my kids can't play in the street in front of my house, because of the thugs wandering by, yeah, I call it 'da hood.  When my neighbors who rent out another house across the street attempt to raise the rent to pay for MUCH needed improvements, what happens? They get called racists, and the renters stop paying.  Which then gets dragged into court.  Every effort that the homeowners on MY STREET made to improve the area were stymied by the renters on the street.  So, let the name calling begin again, but DON'T tell me I don't know Oakland.  I can't REALLY believe that much has changed in 11 Months.

I retract my comment about Piedmont...I undertsood that they had incorporated later.   My appologies.  Happy Centenial!

"OH MY GOD!, You Cloned Kennedy, you BASTARDS!" (Anonymous ANer on seeing Brad Halsey)

by 510inDenver on Apr 5, 2006 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You aren't paying attention
I mean, seriously, is the owner of the Pick-a-Part really so fond of his location that he wouldn't take $100k to move elsewhere?

Yes. Take, for example, the Forrest City project. That was a blighted and deserted area if there ever was one. It took years to assemble all the parcels through eminent domain, even though they were hardly any operating businesses on the land. Eminent domain also makes people angry. The Forrest City project benefits everyone in Oakland, especially downtown residents like me. And they paid those people way more than fair prices for their businesses and property. But it was still a nasty, nasty fight that angered many residents. Assembling a large clump of land, containing many parcels through eminent domain is an absolute nightmare.
when I get to Oakland all I see, right the way to the ballpark, is warehouses, auto body shops, junkyards, factories (that are closing), downtrodden housing and run down retail.

Actually, the factories and warehouse space in Oakland do pretty well. We're a port city. We use warehouses. People use them. And honestly, I'm not sure what train you're taking if that's what you see. On BART, you pass by the port, fruitvale (a thriving retail and business district), and a busy industrial district that supports the enginge of the Bay Area's economy.

Your attitude is reflective of a lack of understanding of Oakland's economy.

by tempest in a d cup on Apr 5, 2006 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey, you know what?
If someone came to my town and said it was a shithole, I'd find plenty of selective stats to show it isn't too, but the reality is, from someone who has lived all over North America, in several places in Canada, in Japan and Australia, there are three cities I would never go back to - ever - for any reason, other than baseball.

Congratulations - Oakland joins Detroit and Cincinnati on the list.

Honestly, in all sincerity, I traveled right around the bay last week, not on the interstate, but by bus and train and foot, I walked suburban streets, stood on CalTrain platforms, waited under shady trees for buses, sat in neighborhood parks and watched the world go by, from Santa Rosa all the way down to Palo Alto, and the only part of the entire Bay Area that I wouldn't live in was the East Bay.

I could live in Vegas (and have), because despite its bad areas, it has plenty of good ones and is working to move on up. Ditto a dozen other small, struggling, but slowly improving cities I've visited and/or resided in.

But not Oakland. It is, from what I could see (and I was looking hard) a hole, pure and simple. It's a city that never got the memo that grunge is dead.

There are nice parts I missed? I'm sure there are.
There are great places to eat, drink and live? I'd guess that's true.
You happen to enjoy it and have some civic pride in the place? Bully for you.
Maybe you're not bothered by a two-terminal airport that requires a two mile shuttle to find a rental car desk, and if so, well done sir.

But I'm telling you, as a tourist who came out to Oakland to see the A's and do some business, I'd never go back for anything but the baseball.

Maybe you dig the ports and what they do for the economy of... uh.. the people who work on the docks, but there's a lot more to a real city than heavy industry, and on a weekend when it was announced that the Mothers' Cookies factory will be closing and moving to Canada, it's looking to me like Oakland's even struggling on that front.

I've lived in CO, CA, DC, MA, NY, NJ, PA, IL, WA, TX, KY, OH, NV and many places in between, so please don't lecture me that I don't know what I'm talking about. I know what a shitty city looks like, and I know what a city trying to move on up looks like, and Oakland is not the latter.

I'm sure there's a nice city in there, struggling to get out, but damn, you might want to tell your civic leaders to do a better job demonstrating the fact. and step one would be to say to Lew Wolff, "Let's find some you some land and offer the owners enough that they want to leave. We'll cover the cost, you'll include low income housing, and you can have your damn ballpark village."

Don't you miss the days of martinis and greenies?

by Ozzz on Apr 5, 2006 8:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is absolutely insane
Not only are you bagging Oakland but the entire East Bay.  Do you know how HUGE and DIVERSE (neighborhood-wise) Oakland and the East Bay are?  Your points may be accurate for parts of Oakland.  But you are over generalizing to the point of losing all credibility.

by stewbaby on Apr 5, 2006 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Zzz.
I've lived in Newark. I've lived in Kentucky. I've lived in Detroit, Cincinnati, Reno, and Echo Park Los Angeles. I understand the concept of shitholes that have nice places here and there. But here's the thing - those places, even with their nice suburbs, are still shitholes.

The only way you fix Oakland is to admit there's a problem. And there clearly is.

Without the A's, it's an even bigger one.

Don't you miss the days of martinis and greenies?

by Ozzz on Apr 6, 2006 1:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sorry, but I can't even respond to you
Your arguments are without any logic. We are a thriving city and you are welcome to continue being a racist and never visit again. We don't want you here. Frankly, you disgust me.

by tempest in a d cup on Apr 6, 2006 4:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey, here's a clue.
Call me a racist again and see what happens to your account.
Don't you miss the days of martinis and greenies?

by Ozzz on Apr 6, 2006 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll be the first to admit
that Oakland from the BART tracks is not a pleasant sight to behold.  That's because the BART lines through Oakland run from the port in West O down the industrial corridor that is I-880 (you also have a line that juts through downtown but that's underground, while the MacArthur and Rockridge stations cancel each other out).  Industrial areas don't look good period.

Oakland is more than just those areas and some "nice places here and there."  You have huge amounts of neighborhood diversity.  There is the aforementioned industrial corridor (which does have some nice places here and there, but that just makes your point).  You have a huge swath of Oakland flatlands north of the lake, which tends to be a very desirable area to live as reflected in the housing prices there (even adjusting for the torrid market).  You have the huge swath of flatlands south of the lake, which is a mixed bag.  You have the area around the lake, which also has its good and bad.  Then you have the entire Oakland hills and foothills, which are not just an insubstantial suburb of Oakland, but cover a lot of land and house lots of people and are largely pleasant places to live.

Even many of the "grungy" areas have plenty of redeeming qualities.  But regardless of what you think of the grunge, there are plenty of "yuppy" areas as well: Piedmont Ave., Montclair Village, Rockridge, Jack London Square, Lakeshore/Grand etc.

Don't get me wrong.  Oakland has its problems.  I especially agree with the poster who chastised the city for thwarting the improvement of bad neighborhoods (even if the intentions may be good).  I'm just not understanding how all the other places you've lived plus a BART tour give you insight into Oakland.

by stewbaby on Apr 6, 2006 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

To clarify...
I spent the best part of a week in Oakland, so it's not a case of zipping through on BART once and making a sweeping declaration.

My point is, and I think you seem to be agreeing with it, that Oakland NEEDS to start turning over some real estate and making the undesirable desirable. And the place that should be happening is in the worst spots there is.

Where other cities come into that is my experiences in said cities, watching them trying desperately to improve even the foulest of places.

For example, Cincinnati had a dire riverside area that consisted of slag heaps, barges, parking lots, ghost town downtown areas, race riots and homeless people. They pegged on a sales tax to pay for a pair of massive state of the art stadiums, and not only are their sporting teams bringing in huge crowds, but that area is starting to turn the right way. People are coming back into the downtown area, and the ballpark is incredible.

In Sydney, they had a similar situation downtown where a whole load of industrial dockland areas were run down and not being developed because the owners wouldn't sell or put money into it, so they passed laws demanding that the properties be kept at a certain standard of taken under eminent domain. Almost everyone then decided to sell, and they turned it into an entire suburbn of retail, restaurants, entertainment, hotels, a casino and transport systems. Now Darling Harbor is the place to be, not just for tourists, but also for locals.

Take a walk through Nashville, or spend a day in downtown Memphis - both cities were slums until about five years ago when the cities in question decided to start bulldozing shitville, and building facilities that people could enjoy with their families. The Memphis Redbirds ballpark is, quite simply, the best stadium I've sat in - ever - and the city doesn't just own it, but also owns the team that plays there. The citizens are shareholders. And the city has sprung up from that to boomtime.

So what I'm saying is, to not jump at the chance to embrace Lew's ballpark village is insane on not just one or two levels, but many. It could turn Oakland's worst areas around, it could give them a stadium on the water, it could give them justification to improve the hitherto unimproveable, and it could mark Oakland not just as a city with some sporting teams, but as a place to go for ten million tourists a year that visit San Francisco.

Because right now, it's barely a place to go for locals. And while it may be slowly getting better, every other city of similar size is getting better WAY faster.

Don't you miss the days of martinis and greenies?

by Ozzz on Apr 6, 2006 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow, a three day visit and you're an expert
Again, Oz, just like your insulting and cursing of the dad with son because of his Bonds shirt, you go way too far.  To think your little BART and Caltrain tour gives you insight into Oakland's assets and problems is arrogent.  But you don't even stop at insight, and move straight into "I know the truth and the rest of you are in denial."  So you're worldly.  That's great.  Were you planning on someday also becoming wise?
Defeat d'Anaheim!

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Apr 6, 2006 6:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wise is scheduled for next week.
'Correct' is this week.

Look, I get it, you're hurt that someone doesn't think that Oakland is paradise. No problem. Far be it from me to try to convince you otherwise. If you want to believe Oakland is a boomtown, by all means, go long on Oakland stock. Have an 'Oakland is A-okay' parade down the interstate and be as festive as you wanna be.

But as I said before, if people won't admit Oakland has a problem, Oakland will always have a problem.

And not for nothing, but if I had a major league team up here and the city was not trying everything in its power to keep it in town, I wouldn't be shrugging and calling it 'Vancouver politics', I'd be standing in front of some city offices with pitchforks and torches, screaming myself hoarse, and making sure I had a thousand people with me.

Case in point - recent elections happened up here in Vancouver and I approached every candidate for the Parks Department Board (which owns the stadium) with a set of questions as to what they chose to do with Nat Bailey Stadium - renovate, bulldoze, status quo? I posted the positions of each candidate on my Vancouver Canadians blog, and made a call to arms to baseball fans to side with a certain candidate based on his promises.

Our guy won. And since then, the entire area around the stadium has been beautified, new facilities are being built, new tranist lines are being worked through the place, and it's going to be awesome for the fans, for kids, and for locals.

Was it all down to me? Hell no, but I did my part, I turned up to meetings, and I spoke my opinion, rather than just watch as my team decided to move elsewhere out of frustration with the slow progress of city politics.

My question to you - what have YOU done to keep the A's in your favorite city?

If the Athletics leave, it isn't down to the politicians. It's down to the fact that Oaklanders don't care enough to fight for their team, and would rather keep their heads in the ground, believing that the problem is someone else's doing.

And you, dear sir, are a marvellous case in point.

Don't you miss the days of martinis and greenies?

by Ozzz on Apr 6, 2006 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, I'm harsher on Oakland than most
But I also do it from a standpoint of understanding built on decades of first hand knowledge.  And that includes active, consistent work on behalf of a ballpark, the details of which I feel no requirement to pass up to you on your high horse.

Don't you feel the least bit of dissonence between A) Your avowed anti-Republican feelings, and B) Your view that the dwellings and business which house and employ Oakland's working class should be "cleaned up" with a new ballpark and upscale housing, profitting gazillionaires?  FWIW, Oakland has added between 10-20,000 units of mostly market rate housing in the last ten years (depending on how one counts).  To say the City is in denial and not attempting to improve itself it to wallow in ignorance.

Defeat d'Anaheim!

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Apr 6, 2006 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Broaching each of your points:
  • No, I don't feel any disconnect between being a progressive and feeling that areas that have become slums should be cleaned up. However, I think you'll see from comments I've made elsewhere here, that Oakland should be ensuring that such developments include low income housing, not just high end condos. Diversity is important to an area, and that includes diversity in wealth levels, not just race. If you're honestly going to tell me that providing new housing for low income people is not as good as leaving them in crumbling neighborhoods, I'd be baffled.
  • I don't doubt Oakland has added 10-20,000 units of housing, in the last decade, but that works out at just 2,000 units (by your most best case estimate) per year. If Oakland is indeed booming, where do the rest of the people flocking to the area end up living?
  • As far as the profit levels of gazillionaires, I have no issue with rich people becoming richer if they're building infrastructure in a city filled with middle to lower class folks. To my mind, it would be much easier for Lew to simply gobble up real estate, bulldoze it, and make brand new housing units without any need for a ballpark. Or he could move to Vegas or Portland and have whatever conditions he wanted met by the cities in question. But instead, he's trying to build a suburb around a ballpark that will actually add to the city in ways financial, infrastructural, and cost-free to the taxpayer. Again, if you ahve a problem with his behavior, I'm baffled by the fact.
Don't you miss the days of martinis and greenies?

by Ozzz on Apr 6, 2006 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Quit your Bitching. Don't you like Canvas?
The Giant fans got 250 high def TV's over at telephone company park ---they also got a remodeled Club level. Geez those idiots remodeled something that was almost brand new.
A's fans got some cool green canvas from Omar the tent maker....I didn't spot any other improvements for the year.
One thing I enjoyed --it was the quietest Yankee game at Software Colisium I have ever been to. Probably the difference between 45K and 34K voices.Last night there wer only 31K --that maybe the lowest attendence for a Yankee game in years.

by Aparicio11 on Apr 5, 2006 10:46 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I grew up in Oakland.
Remember when Finley closed the 3rd deck; he was just too cheap to tarp it off.  Caught the bus to the Coliseum plenty of times.  Love the Town.

It's time for the A's to move.  No suitable plot in Oakland, no political will to make it happen, no voter will to tax themselves.

Better Fremont than Las Vegas.

Build it in Fremont, and they WILL come.  And if THEY don't come, at least I'll get a front row seat.......

by BleacherDave on Apr 5, 2006 1:45 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

And my wife and I will be in the front row with
you if they dont come.

by breedingewoks on Apr 5, 2006 2:40 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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