Where do you think the Chinese Taipei is?

by hunter on Mar 3, 2006 12:02 AM PST Comment 28 comments

Welcome to politics, kids. The WBC bracket that's playing now... China, Japan, Korea (South Korea, not that bastard axis of evil country, as they say), and, what do I hear, Chinese Taipei is on television right now.

Ladies and Gentlemen, people who aren't total jackasses understand that the Chinese Taipei is in fact, Taiwan. Guess what, kids? They aren't part of China, unless you believe what the U.S.has to say. Taiwan is a totally different country.

I'm so terribly sorry so bring this up, because I believe that this is a political issue which is more or less shunned here at AN, however, it is totally inappropriate to consider Taiwan a part of China, no matter what the dumbass State Department wants to say.

Am I an idiot? I've been accused of such things before. Am I making a big deal out of nothing? I personally don't think so, but I'm willing to wait for the vote to come in. Calling the country Chinese Taipei implies that they are still a part of China, but, you know, different, while we let them.

Honestly, I may have a totally incorrect idea about the relationship between China and Taiwan, but as far as I've interpreted, it's taken a long time for Taiwan to "gain" their g*d d**n independence from China.

I say again... am I speaking out of turn? I just think that it seems typically American to call the country Chinese Taipei. I eagerly await your opinion.

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Sorry, kids

OK, look, I am really sorry to bring this up, still, because this probably is not germane to the purpose of Athletics Nation, but I'm really pissed that the United Stated hasn't figured out that Taiwan is a real country.

by hunter on Mar 3, 2006 12:10 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

is that a PRC poll?

i'm not sure why you're placing the blame on the united states. pretty much the entire world refuses to recognize taiwan.

at least the us congress passed the taiwan act in 79, and clinton did send the seventh fleet into the strait in the 90s...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Relations_Act

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Mar 3, 2006 12:13 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Of course I know where Chinese Taipei is..

It's the Separate Customs Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kinmen and Matsu.

Technically a state of civil war exists between the PRC and ROC. At least that's how the mainland sees it and calls Taiwan a "renegade province." Taiwan on the other hand has announced that they renounce their claim to Mainland China and Outer Mongolia (you know, the country of Mongolia) but have yet to do so by amending their constitution. Does this mean they're independent?

So basically, it's wierd and convoluted and Taiwan pretty much enjoys de facto independence.

I love the rhetoric coming from both sides, especially on how "Chinese Taipei" is translated into Chinese, from Wikipedia:

For sporting events, the Taiwanese team is abbreviated in Taiwan as the Zhonghua Team (中華隊; Zhonghua being a more cultural rather political variation of the term China), which, in effect, labels it the "Chinese Team". However, as of the 2004 Summer Olympics, there has been a movement in Taiwan to change all references of the ROC team in media to the "Taiwanese Team," and the mainstream Taiwan Television (TTV) is one of the first Taiwanese media to do so. There are currently also cable TV channels that refer to Taiwan as the Zhonghua Team and China as the Zhongguo Team as if Zhonghua and Zhongguo mean totally different things. In contrast to both Taiwanese and most foreign usage, the PRC always labels the Taiwanese team as the Zhongguo Taibei Team (中国台北队 or "Taipei, China Team," using the PRC's preferred translation for the term) to avoid either suggesting that Taiwan is independent or the ROC is China.

"Damn kids" -Ron Flores

by secret ASian man on Mar 3, 2006 12:35 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

This is what I mean

I have no doubt that China prefers that the world believe that Taiwan is still a part of China. But I'm not sure that the rest of the world believes that, despite what xbaskharx would have me believe. In fact, the CIA factbook lists Taiwan as a separate country: check my work.

But MLB considers the two countries to be separate, or else they would make the players from both countries play for the same team. (And don't fool yourself, MLB is running this tourney.)

XBX, I know that I'm not replying directly to your post, but give me some links/evidence regarding the rest of the world not considering Taiwan a separate country, because I think most countries do.

by hunter on Mar 3, 2006 1:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

crap

I spelled your handle wrong... sorry

by hunter on Mar 3, 2006 1:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Countries and teams

MLB considers the two countries to be separate, or else they would make the players from both countries play for the same team.

Not necessarily. Puerto Rico is clearly a part of the USA -- Puerto Ricans are US citizens (which many people have seemed to forget in the Carlos Delgado 7th-inning-stretch controversy), after all. Still, PR sometimes fields its own team, sometimes not (would Puerto Ricans be eligible for the US World Cup team? Does anyone know?).

I've always found it interesting that different sports draw national team boundaries differently. In the Olympics, Great Britain fields a single team. In the World Cup or in international Rugby, England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland field separate teams. Why? My guess is that money has something to do with it, because it always does, but I can't figure out the angle.

So I think it's perfectly possible to accept the ROC and the PRC teams competing against each other, even if you think they're really part of the same country.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Mar 3, 2006 6:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Half of Politics is Perception

The United States, perhaps moreso than any other country in the world, recognizes the Republic of China as an independent nation. We are the ones who sell them the military hardware they need to prevent a Chinese invasion. We are the ones who provide them the training to ensure that they know how to use it. We are also the ones who tend to keep an entire carrier fleet floating around in the region (along with a number of submarines which I'm sure are operating in/near the strait itself) for the sole purpose of making sure no funny business happens.

The only thing we (and the rest of the world) refuse to do is call it another country when China is in the same room. Everyone, including China, recognizes that Taiwan is an independent nation, regarldess of all the political posturing on the side of the Chinese. It's more a matter of perception than anything else. China has made it clear that it really, really wouldn't like it if other nations started "officially" recognizing Taiwan. As long as we get to keep selling them stuff, they get to keep buying our stuff, they get to have their own military forces, they remain democratic, and they get to keep operating under their own laws, it's not worth the trouble.

Eventually, China will come around. It's only a matter of time.

by Inquisitor on Mar 3, 2006 1:06 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

But, dude

what's the point? Why should I have to wait for pomp to catch up with reason? And why does the WBC have to call it Chinese Taipei when it obviously isn't?

In other news politics is trash! Seriously... it's garbage.

by hunter on Mar 3, 2006 1:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't think China will come around

China is experiencing a surge of national pride, the Olympics, higher standards of living, Hong Kong and Macau back in the fold... As long as you aren't a Catholic who is aligned with the Pope, an adherent of Falun Gong or a person who can be accused of spying for America and/or Taiwan, it's a good time to be Chinese.

Have you seen Hero? It's a great movie, but I think it also serves as vehicle of nationalist pride. It's an attitude that is very common in China today.

Chinese people, and I'm speaking in a mainland sense, that after centuries of opression by foreigners such as the British, Russian, Portugese, French, Germans, American and Japanese (especially, the Japanese, mostly because of WWII atrocities). It's time for China to stand on its own two feet and reclaim territories they feel were taken away due to foreign intervention.

Taiwan, before WWII was a Japanese colony which was taken from China in the century before that.

Let's just say that China is not going to drop the Taiwan issue anytime soon. It's like if New York City wants to seceede from the United States.

"Damn kids" -Ron Flores

by secret ASian man on Mar 3, 2006 1:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

very true

there is an increase in chinese nationalism. also note the recent attacks on japanese businesses.

and since china will only become more powerful, both economically and militarily, that's not going to change anytime soon (barring some sort of democratic revolution).

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Mar 3, 2006 1:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

And 1989 showed what happened ...

when students tried to encourage a democratic revolution (or reforms). In all honesty, in due time, I wouldn't be surprised if China decided to flex her muscles and take over Taiwan. PRC already has the power economically, and militarily (even if not politically) to do so, but hasn't chosen to. And the U.S. would put up token resistance at best.

Some things to keep in mind.

China has a amazing amount of economic influence. Take a look around any products within arms reach. How many are made in China? If China were to increase taxes on everything headed out of China, I think the U.S. would think twice.
I really don't think that the U.S. would be willing to engage in a protracted war to defend Taiwan. Especially since China has the manpower to win a war of attrition (not to mention the aforementioned economic clout). The U.S. may pay lip service to preserving democratic ideals, but when it comes down to it, money is a much more powerful influence, and the U.S. isn't willing to lose a lot of it over Taiwan.

Best case scenario would be to continue the current 'arrangement' and leave things be.

As an aside, like Secret Asian Man, I, too am Chinese. Born and raised in the Bay Area, and definitely pro-US/democracy (I kinda like my 1st Amendment rights). While I have no attachment at all to mainland China, I do recognize the clout of a 1 billion pound gorilla (panda? tapir?) in the room when I see one. And to paraphrase the old joke - Where does a 1 billion pound gorilla sit?

by Rickeyfan on Mar 3, 2006 9:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I love my 1st Amendment too

Trust me, the only Americans the Chinese arrest are Chinese Americans. They don't arrest White Americans, Black Americans, Mexican Americans, but they do arrest Chinese American, becaue we can be spies. I don't sleep well whenever I'm on the mainland. I try to keep all of my China excursions to be day trips from Hong Kong.

Just because I have a profound respect for my heiratage, that doesn't mean I want to live there.

Remember, when I'm back there, I'm the American cousin. But here, I'm the Chinese guy.

Isn't it cool to be a perpetual foreigner?

"Damn kids" -Ron Flores

by secret ASian man on Mar 3, 2006 10:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm smart enough to stay here

In my near three decades of existence, I've been to HK twice and never ventured into China (despite family offers to do so). Me and my outspoken mouth could get myself tossed into a jail with no hope of getting out. That said, I'd relax my restriction for Beijing in 2008. And I'd stick to the well travelled touristy areas. And wear lots of red white and blue. I'd like to think of myself as being proud of my race and culture, but especially that of US of A citizenship.

by Rickeyfan on Mar 3, 2006 11:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

actually

it wasn't as "ideally democratic" as high school history books makes it to be. some of the demonstrators were compelled to join.
on point 2, back in 2002? i think, the US sold the Taiwanese government some Aegis Defense "mechanisms" which infuriated the mainland officals.

so much on my mind, i just can't recline -respiration

by ucla kid on Mar 3, 2006 6:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with MOST of this

except for that last comment. It is decidedly NOT like New York City trying to break off from the United States, and I think you know that. I would wager that people in Taiwan consider themselves an autonomous, independent nation. They consider themselves Taiwanese citizens, not Chinese citizens, despite what China would say or what ridiculous position our government takes. I'm not speaking for myself, but I think it might offend people to make an anaology like that, just because it seems quite off-base.

However, I do agree with the entire premise of this thread, which is that it's unfortunate that the WBC is being marred by both politics and reluctant players. I think it has the possibility to be such a GREAT and exciting event, and the constant whining and negativity from both fans, owners, and even players is somewhat unfortunate.

by nycfan on Mar 3, 2006 9:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It's more like Puerto Rico

The analogy was made earlier in the diary, and it's a good one.

Puerto Rico doesn't want to break away because they enjoy the benefits of US citizenship, health care, etc. However, if you ask a Puerto Rican, they consider themselves a seperate nation in every other sense.

by booya on Mar 3, 2006 10:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

"the benefits of US ... health care"

Yeah, they're all clamoring to get involved with that wonderful Medicare Part D.

No gits, no sh**, but does it have grit? -- Ice Cream @('.')@

by monkeyball on Mar 3, 2006 10:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Not really

Puerto Rico frequently holds elections to decide if they should become a state or remain a province, and every year thus far, remaining a province has won by narrow margins.
That is, a good part of Puerto Rico wants to become a state.
That is, your assertion is completely wrong.

by H3liCat on Mar 3, 2006 2:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I stand corrected

It's actually pretty split, though the statistcs here are kinda confusing:
http://ri.essortment.com/puertoricansta_rdla.htm

It's probably the thought of a 51st star that made me assume it's not a good idea.

by booya on Mar 3, 2006 3:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I was wondering...

... where the Chinese Tapir is.

by Brian in 317 on Mar 3, 2006 7:03 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Ummm...Brian?

You're soaking in it.

"Keep the juices going by jangling around gently as you move." - Satchel Paige

by McFood on Mar 3, 2006 7:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm guessing China?

Simming Offseason.....

by robber23 on Mar 3, 2006 9:07 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

It's all Arte Moreno's fault

China's just trying to increase/upgrade the geography of its brand, as the Angels did with LA/Anaheim.

No gits, no sh**, but does it have grit? -- Ice Cream @('.')@

by monkeyball on Mar 3, 2006 10:33 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Arte's work?

The Chinese Taiwanese Republic Zhonghwa Zhongguo Team of Chinese Taipei?

"Damn kids" -Ron Flores

by secret ASian man on Mar 3, 2006 10:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

That's right

They're just trying to stay in technical compliance with that stadium contract that stipulates "the name of the team shall include the name Taipei therein".

by socal on Mar 3, 2006 10:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

While I agree that the entire situation is silly

"Chinese-Taipai" is not an American invention. It's used for all international athletic competitions, American sponsored or otherwise. Taiwan is mature enough to accept that it's not worth China raising a hissy fit if anyone seeks to question their convoluted logic. (I don't care what they say, the island of Taiwan has never been a part of the People's Republic of China. It was a part of the Republic of China and the Chinese Empire before that, but never the PROC. Them's the facts.)

Check out some awesome music ...

by devo on Mar 3, 2006 4:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

this stuff

China v. Chinese Tapei, it just a fight that never seems to end between two political parties: CCP v. KMT. if you wanna go by whether Taiwan was originally apart of China, the answer is no. Taiwan is the island called Formosa, which had native inhabitants before the Fukanese(sp?), people of the coast region of China just across from the island, started to inhabited there and was part of China in the Sui Dynasty. All this represents is that there is a "Period of Disunion". Is Taiwan part of China, I believe so because we share common cultural and traditional values that Chinese historians have recorded as our history. Somethings differ but the essentials of are there. Oh how we have separated as a people but we will unite again because we all can from a common ancestor. but this China v. Chinese Tapei is all political. a grudge amongst two parties vying for control of the nation, not the people. i have no stance for which is "better" because i'm waiting for the confucian revival #2.
this subject is a complex (not difficult, just many layers) topic. first, one must put himself in a different train of thought, the methods we are taught throughout school (American, that is) aren't applicable. i suggest if you wanna know more about this, read up on Chinese history. but as of today, this is just CCP v. KMT.

so much on my mind, i just can't recline -respiration

by ucla kid on Mar 3, 2006 6:42 PM PST reply actions 0 recs