SABERMETRICIANS AND MONEYBALLERS MORE OF A THREAT TO GAME THAN STEROIDS
Baseball is immortal, isn't it?
The intrinsic beauty and balance of the game--played in a 90 ft, 9 inning, 9 man, 27 out perfect world--has always sustained it in tough times.
Seemingly undaunted by the ills of real life, including the constant waves of gambling and booze and performance enhancers that the diamond has witnessed since the origin of Organized Baseball in the nineteenth century, the game has steadfastly continued marching ahead.
In spite of its many ups and downs, it has provided us with unbroken memories and endless comparisons of its greats from era to era. And it was able to do so by speaking to us in a timeless and language of sound and picture--the crack of the bat, a cap flying off in the outfield, a crowd's voice soaring in unison as the runner rounds third--backed by a universal dictionary of revered definitions: W-L (won-lost), HRs (home runs), RBIs (runs batted in), BA (batting average), and ERA (earned run average).
It was always about what was happening between the foul lines. We didn't really care about anything else.
Even McGwire and Sosa couldn't spoil the main event, in spite of their apparently drug-induced side show in 1998.
Neither could Canseco, Giambi, Bonds, Palmiero, Caminiti, Bagwell, Clemens, Pettitte, or Vaughn. Nor Rose or Ford, Koufax or Grove, Cobb or Speaker, for that matter. We looked at their legendary performances and statistics, their excesses and frailties, which were nearly universal. We tried to understand them in terms of their eras. And, ultimately, we can accept and embrace them.
We could question its stars, but nothing could permanently undermine the game itself. Nothing could stop it from bouncing back. Not racism, drugs, wars, depressions, or earthquakes, not even the designated hitter.
Now it faces a challenge once again.
I'm not sure when it started. But we started looking at the game differently. Attention began shifting away from the field, away from the distinctive way a guy would routinely dive head first into second with dirt and spikes flying.
Instead, we started looking at his SB% (stolen base %), and then, before we knew it, his VORP (Value Over Replacement Player) or TPR (Total Player Rating).
One day we were out in the bleachers arguing with our friends about how many people were in the park, or how many home runs Boog Powell hit in 1967, and eagerly waiting for the scoreboard to announce the actual figures. How did that blundering simplicity change into a smug fluency with win shares, radar guns, ACL injuries, payrolls, contracts, and territorial rights?
Something dark and distracting now seemed to be underway, beneath the giddiness of new attendance records, the promise of a building boom of glossy stadiums, and a bevy of talented young players today that very well may exceed the skills of any previous era.
Even with all this to look forward to, something was wrong.
Rather than simply watch the game, the new fans now wanted to be at the center of attention. Selling them a new identity as baseball "experts," and pumping them up with myriad new stats and "insider" knowledge, could make them feel important and superior to those who didn't "get it," and, most importantly, create new markets and mallparks that would be designed to satisfy this need for self-importance, trendiness, and exclusivity.
Give them their own little electronic world in which to feel special, their own language, their own statistics, their own products, their own personal interactive device--and leave the clunky, grimey, low-tech fans back in Oakland.
Thus, the gentrification of baseball and the birth of Crisco Field.
Could Bill James, a friendly enough sort, and the father of sabermetrics, be the unwitting Dr. Frankenstein of an electronic plague of redundant calculus-like statistics descending over baseball. Could the sabermetricians and the Moneyballers, SABR's more sinister intellectual beneficiaries, do what even the 1919 Black Sox could not?
Could they ruin baseball?
Maybe. The Moneyballers seem to have hijacked the SABR (Society for American Baseball Research) ship with the help of an affluent, internet-based, business model-saavy fan base that identifies more with money and management than with our communities or the game itself.
An army of stat geeks and closet accountants is turning the Grand Old Game into a world of dubious numbers and formulas for greed-posing-as-sensible baseball management. We are now seeing the merging of this pseudo way to evaluate on-the-field performance--sabermetrics--with the quality control and profits-over-everything mentality of modern corps., banks, and baseball execs.
It's called Moneyball. But do these new stats work? What kind of bargain-hunting arithmetic results in hiring a decidedly declining Mike Piazza for $8M to replace a near MVP Frank Thomas, who is getting $9M from the Jays?
No wonder the real fans are scratching their heads about Ex-A Jermaine Dye--one of the game's best all-around players--getting $7M in 2007, after $5M in 2005 and 2006 from the White Sox, while the Pirates and A's team up to give Jason Kendall $13M in 2007. And, does Jason Kendall's OPS tell you something you don't already know--that he is wildly over-priced--after watching him strand two runners again in the late innings?
Does Bill James' personal favorite, "little stats," really make Craig Biggio the best player in the game--as James claims--or just the best bargain at moving runners from first to second? And do SABR icons like VORPs and "range factors" really enhance watching the game, or will they just send the fans to their nearest Cisco kiosk in 2011, or keep them glued to their pop-up-laden personal interactive device?
The epidemic of saber-stats contrivances--like fielding runs and ERA+ and home park adjustments--has resulted in a fantasy league parallel universe where the fantasy manager's salary cap and budgetary considerations, and all manner of showy calculations and pretentious formulas, are more valued than simply watching--and understanding--the game itself.
It's moneyball vs. baseball. It's Rotisserie League vs. Hot Stove League. It's trendy fans of the trendy ballpark and the esoteric stat vs. fans of the timeless hook slide and the basic hit-and-run.
We may have already seen the beginning of the end of our beloved game as we know it. Even the most traditional fans helplessly find themselves discussing OPS (the sum of on base % and slugging %). And the most popular baseball blogs are dominated by shrewdly calculated actuarial presentations on player payrolls and contracts that more resemble financial analysis in the Wall Street Journal than a baseball story.
Now the fan--the new, smug baseball business-saavy fan who identifies with the owners, not the traditional fan of teams and the ooh-and-ah watching of baseball--can discuss the merits of a three year contract for a middle reliever with the competence and dispassion of a general manager.
But the same fan doesn't know when a throw should be cut off or allowed to go through to the plate on a bang-bang play.
This may be fine with Wall Street, which cares about only its money and investments, and which is comfortable with the way these new age fans identify with wealth and management.
But on Main Street, which has traditionally cared less about profits and more about its hits-and-runs-and-errors, its hot dogs, and a lazy day at the ballpark, embracing the bottom line hasn't taken hold among the fans to the extent giants like Citicard and Safeco would prefer.
We're not rooting hard enough yet for their profit margin. We need to get on board with Cisco's happy vision of a perpetual profit machine in Silicon Valley. This identity with corporate interests would make us more compliant and consumptive.
Is this writer paranoid? Then, tell me, whoever heard of fans rooting for baseball executives, rather than outfielders, the way we do today. Some of us depend on Billy Beane's "shrewdness" to win the pennant and pay more attention to his Macha-vellian madness than we do to the box score.
Just wait, there's more to come. This is where we can see how promotion of the bland Moneyball efficiency model--which sees players as interchangeable parts--is blazing the way for this new kind of fan, one that identifies with annual reports more than scouting reports, and salary caps more than hometeam caps.
The natural result of this shift of loyalty from the game to the bottom line is our acceptance and even approval of the heartlessness and "inevitablity" of moving to Fremont and the creation of the marketing mosh pit called Cisco Field.
Not far behind will be hors d'ouevres like $169 jerseys with "CISCO" proudly emblazoned across the chest. To be followed by a sumptuous menu of Cisco networking devices for our corporate client-fans.
We are immersed in a new world of endless stat-infused chatter over nothing, a constant marketing/Rotisserie League culture in which the fan, no longer just an observer, becomes a player. Surrounded by extraneous gadgets like ever-present radar guns and personal interactive monitors and endless statistics and commercials "at every seat," ala Cisco Field, we will be ready to buy.
We are now seeing the advent of mallparks, which are designed more for shopping than for watching the game. In fact, the idea is for the customers to NOT watch the game. Get 'em in the gate, then get 'em on line. Forces are at work here which are making modern baseball stadiums begin to feel like your local Best Buy, and these same pressures are encouraging the front offices to operate with all the passion of Goldman Sachs.
Jason Marquis, a really dreadful pitcher, has signed with the Cubs for more than $20M for three seasons of ineptitude and three run homers. All the Cubs needed to know about his numbers are a 6.02 ERA in 2006. Instead, whatever fixation with innings and adjusted ERA led the A's to give the same deal to Esteban Loaiza last winter has just made another obvious mediocrity a rich man.
Ironically, today's ever-more frantic emphasis on profits and the bottom line--combined with a lot of silly stat-talk from MBA General Managers, offered in place of the lost ability to know who is good and who is not good--has actually ended up raising the price of these kinds of players.
So, who is more of a threat to the "integrity" and quality of the game--the players who, since time immemorial, have tried to cut corners in any way they could in the course of giving us our greatest memories, or the moneyballers, MBAs (Masters of Baseball Analysis), and accountants, who would rather have us calculate over a spreadsheet than let us settle back and watch the mastery of a two-hitter?
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This diary is going to be popular.
Firejoemorgan rawks
Um
Easterbrook? Is that you?
B. Owners are targeting a more affluent fan through boutique ballparks and controlling ticket supply.
C. Therefore A is causing B.
What to say about this...post hoc ergo propter hoc? Or perhaps we should invoke the underpants gnomes.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Dec 14, 2006 12:02 PM PST reply actions
you could
Or you could say that...
What the diarist needs to do is go out to a batting cage and swing a little.
And while he's there, if someone tries to show him how to fix his stance, he needs to try to avoid cracking that person over the head with the bat for their temerity in actually using intelligence and knowledge and analysis to improve performance.
I mean, heck, we should just close our eyes and swing, right?
cut to ribbons
80% of the success of a baseball team, like a 80% of the success of a marriage is based on how well you manage your money.
Excellent use of a Strawman
You mention that all any body
By the way in answer to your question Bill James is the guy who started all this, I have all of his books from the beginning, a most delightful read, a treasure in my library.
by china bob on Dec 14, 2006 12:05 PM PST reply actions
We went over this in your diary on Big Mac...
Bill James never claimed this. He said he was incredibly undevalued, even with many good statistics, because of these little things. He has never claimed that he was anywhere near the best player in baseball.
Again, we went over this in your last thread, so I'm not sure if you're not listening, just trying to start an argument, or simply don't care to get your facts right.
Yes he did
by yarky on Dec 14, 2006 4:24 PM PST up reply actions
He's right ...
The ten best players of the 1990s:
- Barry Bonds
- Craig Biggio
- Frank Thomas
- Ken Griffey Jr.
- Jeff Bagwell
- Rafael Palmeiro
- Barry Larkin
- Roberto Alomar
- Mark McGwire
- Greg Maddux
Keep in mind when this was written and that he is specifically talking about the 90s:
OPS+
1997 Biggio 143 Bonds 170
1998 Biggio 139 Bonds 177
1999 Biggio 118 Bonds 162
Massive difference there.
It was ameliorated slightly by Biggio's 125 stolen bases compared to Bonds' 80.
But what it fails to take into account is that Biggio was a high end defensive player at a premium defensive position.
Bonds was a good defensive player (he had started to slow by then and won his last couple of GGs based mostly on rep) at arguably the easiest defensive position.
So what does VORP have to say?
1997 Biggio 80.1 Bonds 86.4
1998 Biggio 80.5 Bonds 83.8
1999 Biggio 48.3 Bonds 45.6
So, according to VORP, during the period in question in the 90s, Biggio's bat was worth 7 runs less than Bonds'.
I find it impossible to imagine that Biggio's glove didn't make up the difference and then some (though I have no data to back it up).
Even without getting into his small ball contributions, a very plausible argument can be made that from 1997-1999 Biggio was better than Bonds.
Hmm...
And also, he is realistic in pointing out that over the decade, Biggio was closer to tenth place then he was to first(Bonds), cause Bonds was so out of everyone elses league.
Lamar was injured in 99 ...
I'm not sure that either Barry nor Biggio was the best of those three years.
In terms of VORP, they were 8th and 11th in the league.
Nomar Garciaparra, Ken Griffey Jr., Mark McGwire, Larry Walker, Derek Jeter and Mike Piazza all had solid leads on the pair.
Let's also not forget...
That's gotta be worth something.
Let's also not forget . . .
by froggiethegremlin on Dec 15, 2006 10:46 AM PST up reply actions
It is reasonable
Do you have an actual argument to make ... or are you just going with "c'mon"?
You're right, I know what is implied by "c'mon" -- Barry Bonds is Barry Bonds, Craig Biggio is just a little second baseman.
Well Joe Morgan was a little dude too, so were Eddie Collins and Rogers Hornsby.
I do think that James overstates Biggio's talents a bit.
But, I suppose this just proves his actual point -- that Biggio was a terribly underappreciated superstar. If folks who do their best to tell the difference between a .280 and .300 hitter based on looking at their swings instead of their stats don't realize Biggio's brilliance, it's no wonder he has been quite underappreciated.
I will give in on the first part...
Regardless, I think we have placed a reasonable argument that Biggio was the best player in 1997, and one of the most valuable from 1997-1999. You have stated nothing, other than that it is laughable.
Offer some insight, why was he bad? Who was better? You seem to be very good at brushing off others facts and information without providing anything of an argument yourself.
how exactly are the stat head and cell phone fan
Fascinating.
-Nick Swisher
{checks top of head}
You're ruining scalping.
<reads graph on cellphone at ballpark>
<ties indigent A's fan to monorail track>
<eats puppy casserole>
<becomes sports agent>
Wait. Now I'm confused.
Too answer your question
Now to answer the spirit of the question:
"So, who is more of a threat to the "integrity" and quality of the game--the players who, since time immemorial, have tried to cut corners in any way they could in the course of giving us our greatest memories, or the moneyballers, MBAs (Masters of Baseball Analysis), and accountants, who would rather have us calculate over a spreadsheet than let us settle back and watch the mastery of a two-hitter?"
The high cost of going to baseball games is ruining it for me-the $8 beers and $20 T-shirts, that and the ticket scalpers, and the fact that the Red Sox, Yankees, Cubs, Dodgers, Mets can pretty much get whatever player they want.
I guess that would make the 2nd group as ruining the game for me.
You know...
And a hip flask is a great beer substitute.
I never quite understand people who go to events that should, by themselves, be plenty enjoyable, and then complain about how expensive the unnecessary extras are.
"I can't believe they charge $6 for popcorn at this theater!"
"So why did you buy it?"
hip flask
Not sure what else you would put in a hip flask-bourbon/whiskey are the only things that hold up well at normal temps. I do admit it does sound appealing on an April night game though.
[quote]
"...you could not bother buying a T-shirt."
[/quote]
true-I have been experimenting with a some green and gold markers and a plain white hanes T-Shirt. I am pretty happy with the results, plus I can wear the number of whatever player I like.
Only $20?
by BerkeleyDawg on Dec 15, 2006 2:20 PM PST up reply actions
Everything changes or is left behind.
by Billy Ball 2005 on Dec 14, 2006 12:43 PM PST reply actions
What has changed here?
by froggiethegremlin on Dec 14, 2006 12:55 PM PST up reply actions
big mutant hybrid strawman
- people who like the new stats
- people who obsess over fantasy baseball
- people who are casual affluent fans
I have no problem who want to ignore new stats, but people who resent them really protest too much. If you understand what a batting average is, you really have no excuse to resent OBP (yeah you know me), SLG, and OPS, etc.
And yes, you DO need stats to know how well people run, throw and hit. No one can tell by eye the difference between a .300 hitter and a .280 hitter. Knowing these subtle differences shapes and enhances the pleasure of seeing the game unfold.
You can tell the difference . . .
by froggiethegremlin on Dec 14, 2006 1:12 PM PST up reply actions
or at the very least ...
Truthfully, though, at the beginning of this season, I predicted Derek Jeter and Ichiro Suzuki would each bat .300. I did it only based on looking at their swings. I knew but made this pick while ignoring the fact that they both have well above .300 career batting averages.
Aren't you impressed with me?
Who are 3 people who've never been
gee ... that sucks
now that i come to think of it,
gee
I do ...
The corporatization of baseball will infect your soul, curve your spine and keep the country from winning the war.
But no one has yet to make an even remotely sensible argument linking SABRmetrics with the business of baseball.
sometimes
Devo, my response on SABR and business
by froggiethegremlin on Dec 14, 2006 3:26 PM PST up reply actions
Then why make SABR/value the boogeyman?
It's the puppet masters who are the Grinch, not a handful of modern fans.
And how amusing is it that the statheads have become the hipsters and the old school fans the geeks in your construction?
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Dec 14, 2006 3:42 PM PST up reply actions
That kind fo runs in the face of most marketing
They are specifically not targeting the SABR crowd it's members and followers are already huge devotees of the game and are already spending more or less what it is they are going to spend. SABRmetrics are complicated -- they require time, thought and mental energy -- I can understand why many folks who could get it choose not to expend that kind of effort on a pursuit of leisure.
The corporatization movement is designed to encourage 6 figure income individuals and families who aren't really baseball fans as much as they are simply in need of leisure activities to choose a ball game as the evening's leisure as often as possible. They want folks who will drop $20 on food, $30 on beer after buying a $60 seat. Those folks don't know or care about SABRmetrics. They scorn it because they are generally intelligent people and don't like there being something they don't understand.
If you click on the link in my signature, you might find an article by me, myself as well as I, mourning the loss of either baseball as a pure game or my youthful innocence.
There are plenty of us here who would be very interested in discussing the pros and cons of the business of baseball. But most of those people take their SABRmetrics pretty seriously and you really, really haven't shown any except the flimsiest of connections between SABRmetrics and the corporatization of baseball.
You think you're a ton deeper than you really are.
When someone likes something a whole lot, let's say sports cars, they generally tend to read up on them, collect them, immerse themselves in them and surround themselves with fellow devotees (shut up, Devo).
The internet, and to a lesser extent, global publishing and TV analysis, have done what wasn't widely done outside of baseball cards, Strat-O-Matic, and Sports Illustrated in the 50's and 60's - they've greatly increased the availability and accessability of knowledge on the topic.
When I was growing up, kids talked of batting average and wins, then it moved to RBIs and ERA, and then weird stuff like OPS and VORP - not because something new was needed to keep people interested, but because people are INTERESTED enough to FIND something new!
We don't need VORP to enjoy the game, but VORP exists in the world, whether we measure it or not, and thus if we are to be true students of the game, if we really give a fuck about how player A gets to point B, we WANT to have every tool at our discretion with which to try to guess which Player A will make that journey successfully.
Of course, that confuses you, dear diarist, because you think you can tell just by looking at a player that he's a .300 hitter and not a .280 hitter - an incredible feat considering that over 500 ABS, the difference between the two players is only ten hits.
So I'm going to call you on your bullshit, diarist. You can no more tell which hitter will get that extra one hit per 16.2 games than you can guess which player wears bikini underwear.
For the record, the answer is Kenny Rogers.
bravo
by Ryan Armbrust on Dec 15, 2006 3:38 AM PST up reply actions
really?
.300*500=150 hits
So you're telling me that over the course of a 162 game season (500 at-bats), someone can tell the difference between a hitter who gets one more hit every 16 games? Doubtful.
by Ryan Armbrust on Dec 14, 2006 1:29 PM PST up reply actions
Like Scutaro?
by scutaroknowstheway on Dec 14, 2006 10:32 PM PST up reply actions
please
see note above to Billy Ball 2005
by froggiethegremlin on Dec 14, 2006 1:21 PM PST up reply actions
"I get it and you don't" exclusivity
You're still not saying how they are connected.
The problem is, what is the connection between these two things? You are saying it as though all the rich fans who will be going to the games are stat-heads, and all the poor fans who will now be counted out of high-proced stadiums are "traditionalists." I personally don't buy into this argument, as a person who loves baseball, loves baseball-prospectus, and soon will probably will be unable to afford to attend as many games as I would like.
If anything, high-priced athletes are raising the costs of baseball, not stat-heads. Like someone mentioned, who really pays those player's salaries? Look at the average ticket prices of the highest payroll teams. "Moneyball" ideas of finding undervalued players has helped keep the A's competitive with a low payroll, allowing for some of the cheaper tickets in professional baseball. Because a new owner comes in and wants to make more money and make the team even better, does not mean that moneyball was what lead to this change, I would argue it helped delay it.
The connection. That's a hard one.
by froggiethegremlin on Dec 14, 2006 1:58 PM PST up reply actions
You're saying
Dude, he doesn't know what he's saying.
I wonder how he'll see the two-sided outfield scoreboard, built so people outside the ground can watch the game for free from a park, as some sort of 'exclusionary' tactic.
Circularer and circularer
There's an interesting discussion to be had about the commodification of a day at the ballpark. And there's also an interesting conversation to be had about new school metrics versus old school observations. But to equate the two sans evidence is to do a disservice to both conversations.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Dec 14, 2006 2:24 PM PST up reply actions
urgh
I love watching the ball arc through a blue sky, but I also love knowing that the batter has an EqA of .315.
There's nothing better than watching a game on a beautiful spring afternoon, the crack of the bat drifting up to the cheap seats, enjoying a cold beer. But I also think that figuring out a hitter's BABIP can tell you a lot about him.
The moment a curveball dives down and in is a great thing to watch. But am I "ruining baseball" if I want to know what opposing batters are slugging against that curveball?
I'm a fan of the beautiful and sublime things about our national pastime. That will never change. But I also believe that by looking at it objectively, we can know even more about the game, and more of its fascinating inner workings can be explored.
It reminds me of a situation I faced a couple years ago. I've loved to watch storms since I was a little kid; they're amazing. I decided to take a meteorology class that semester, but I worried that once I knew more about the science of the inner workings of storms, they'd lose some of their magic and luster. It didn't hurt my appreciation of nature's forces, but only enhanced and expanded it.
So please, as a plea to everyone who feels the need to paint the different ways to appreciate a baseball game as some sort of conflict over the very soul of the game... step back and hold on a minute. You're fighting a war that you've created, and only you sustain. I hate to sound too hippy-dippy, but can't we all just get along?
no
as in, "lies, damn lies, and statistics."
by Ryan Armbrust on Dec 14, 2006 12:58 PM PST up reply actions
Nebraska, Thanks for your nice sentiment and work
by froggiethegremlin on Dec 14, 2006 1:05 PM PST up reply actions
I agree, to an extent
I took your article to be another volley in that battle. Your comments suggest otherwise, but the article stands as such.
Your point about fantasy baseball affecting the sport is well-taken, though. But I think it's a different issue, one that's more related to the creep of modern business interests into baseball, such as the "ads on the bases" stunt Selig tried to pull a couple years ago.
But when you come to AN and post something as provocative as this, you have to expect people to not take it well. Your tone reeks of anti-intellectualism and condescension.
I think that, like many journalists, you've written an article which you don't necessarily agree with whole-heartedly, but written to get responses and prompt discussion.
Also, your point about the following is a little off base. "...backed by a universal dictionary of revered definitions: W-L (won-lost), HRs (home runs), RBIs (runs batted in), BA (batting average), and ERA (earned run average)."
For many years, some of those stats were not kept at all. ERA wasn't considered important until sometime in the 1920's. Baseball has a long history of accepting new means to measure itself.
Also, please stop beating the Bill James straw man. He's not the baseball devil.
And another point: SABR has little, if anything, to do with sabermetrics. For instance, I'm a member of a SABR committees that studies minor league baseball. Most, if not all, of the discussion is about the players themselves, and not their stats.
There are better things to write about in the offseason than about how fellow fans are "ruining" the game.
by Ryan Armbrust on Dec 14, 2006 1:25 PM PST up reply actions
You bring a lot of insight, but . . .
We are all being affected by a humongous rearranging and fragmenting of the market place where new identites/shoppers are being created all the time. More fundamental than what is going on in baseball is the exploitation of the accelerating need to feel special, unique, informed, as in "I get it and you don't." It's my belief that the explosion of an insider market of baseball fans, who engage in a parallel rotisserie world, sabermetrics, moneyball, and all the rest of the new esoteric baseball culture (which, as I mentioned earlier, I myself partake in)is a development that plugs in very nicely to what the Cisco A's are attempting in Fremont, which will be not only a bsseball country club but a world marketing center for Cisco products and image. Repeating myself, sorry, but today's consumer is not just buying a prodcut but also an identity . . .
by froggiethegremlin on Dec 14, 2006 1:45 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with some of that
I think this is just another trend, another era, not the end of 27 outs. To put it plainly, it sucks that most loyal fans cannot afford to be at the ballpark as much anymore, but that's due to the system as a whole, not approaching the understanding of baseball through different views.
Anyway, baseball is no more above any other social hierarchy when it comes to exclusiveness. We're talking about some of the original old boys clubs, only now they've added more tiers and charge a higher price for admission.
so your saying...
Huh?
I have no idea what this has to do with sabermetrics "ruining the game".
Isn't that exactly what you're saying, though, that you, and the other folks who like to see people's hats fly off in the outfield, "Get it" and we, the sabermetric nerds ruining the game, don't get it?
So sabermetricians are part of a baseball "country club", and we're not letting you in?
I fail to see how Cisco partnering with the A's is going to bring about baseball apocalypse. It's not as if when you go to the stadium, you're required to buy a Cisco router or sign up for their mailing list.
So you're saying that by attending games, you're essentially wearing a "Cisco Rules!" t-shirt?
I think it's pretty easy to go the the ballpark and watch the game, ignoring all the ads and noise of other things that could take away from the experience.
If you want to talk about things like that ruining the game, let's have a discussion about Fox Sports and their animated everything on TV, or the ads they place digitally behind the batter. Let's talk about ESPN broadcasting games as an excuse to pimp their own programming later on.
In the grand scheme of things that are threatening to baseball, I think folks who know their way around some numbers are pretty far down the list.
by Ryan Armbrust on Dec 14, 2006 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
Apparently you haven't studied much history.
But hey, I guess that was just something to do with the weather, and not the obvious fact that, sometimes, you can make a little more money and upgrade your place of residence by moving house once in a while.
It's the EVILLE MARKETING PEOPLE! OOOH, OOGA BOOGA!
Wow
What is threatened by sabermetrics is not "the game," but rather lazy sportswriters who would have us believe that they hold the final word on baseball. Count a hitters RBIs, or a pitchers wins, add in some quotes about his leadership, and pump out another formulaic column about how Steve Garvey is a hall of famer. Then hit the bar. God forbid an outsider should question their pronouncements.
In a much-ridiculed quote that would have fit right into this screed, Joe Morgan once suggested that too much reliance on computers is "what led to Enron." But the truth is just the opposite: what led to Enron was a willful ignorance that allowed people to ignore science and logic in favor of lies. I guess that, despite having a healthy (some would say unhealthy) cynicism, I'm still basically a positivist: I believe that on the whole more knowledge will make our lives better, that while science has helped lead to more powerful weapons, the brutal efficiency of Walmart, and pollution, that's been an acceptable price to pay for cures for diseases, computers, and a generally high standard of living. And, yes, a greater understanding of baseball. I also think it's no coincidence that the general manager who integrated baseball also had a keen interest in finding better statistics - both are signs of an open mind that is apparently all too rare.
Nebraska just summed it up well. I love knowledge and science, and I also love just sitting and watching a ballgame (where, by the way, I generally sit in the bleachers, and carry neither a laptop nor a cellphone, since I don't own either one.) I have little use, though, for atavists.
I, for one criticize the pronouncements
Fortunately
you came dangerously close ...
It has to be able to handle a pretty large chunk of data ...
need something fancier than Excel?
by pickinmachine on Dec 14, 2006 2:23 PM PST up reply actions
I think so
by pickinmachine on Dec 14, 2006 2:28 PM PST up reply actions
yeah
I had 3 business stats classes way back in college and we had to install this plug-in.
Man I hated those classes :)
by pickinmachine on Dec 14, 2006 2:34 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, there it is ...
haha
by pickinmachine on Dec 14, 2006 3:12 PM PST up reply actions
Open Office
www.openoffice.org
I think mini tab and SPSS are avaiable for sub $100 now.
You can also get Mathematica for under $75 if you have a student friend.
You can get R , its free and has a nice support community.
http://www.r-project.org/
good luck
I've got to say
makes my day.
by Ryan Armbrust on Dec 14, 2006 2:48 PM PST up reply actions
It's beautiful, isn't it?
You people are what caused Enron.
You and your eville VORPish ways.
who says YOU have to change
If people want to do their thing with electronic devices and love for stats, who cares. It doesnt have to effect you or what actually happens on the field. Professionall baseball is and always will be a contest between athletes gifted with the ability to play a game at the highest level.
Put on your AM/FM headphones and tune everything out at the park if it makes you feel better.
CISCO has invented wireless technology
The technology will be demonstrated on Jason Kendall in 2007, and it is hoped that it will produce the heretofore unseen feat (in the AL) of three Jason Kendall HRs in one season.
There's actually
sabean and monkeyball are on steroids?
All I know is......
All I know is that your post, I felt, needed...
And, it looks as though the author of this particular diary does not share our enthusiams for the new era and this new thought. I wonder, though, if the Athletics' winning percentage during the Beane era -- a by-product of this new way of thinking -- is something that this author also finds troubling. Maybe he liked the old way better...the seemingly perpetual 77-85 records with a World Series appearence sprinkled in every ten years or so.
by LowcountryJoe on Dec 14, 2006 3:29 PM PST up reply actions
Moneyball and winning baseball
But before last season this team has not gotten as far as the ACLS since the Bash Brothers.
Maybe we need more steroids (just kidding). Anyway, what is emerging here is more of an argument about the business of baseball and its connection to this new somewhat esoteric new rotisserie culture and audience. Please forgive me, but if we can't see that connection at all, like many are protesting, I don't know what to say (Give me a minute, I'll think of something . . .)
by froggiethegremlin on Dec 14, 2006 3:46 PM PST up reply actions
Couple of things here.
My personal view about the book was that it was very well written for what it tried to convey -- the subtitle alone being "The Art of Winning an Unfair Game" [though I am not a big believer in so-called unfairness when competition exists]. And yes, I really do believe that Beane agreed to give access to Lewis because he guessed, perhaps correctly, that what was being conveyed would actually help some segment of fans to come to appreciate what beane was trying to do in this organization...as though it was a marketing gimmick of sorts for Beane and the owners.
Back to microeconomics: in 'micro' courses, one is taught to see what isn't seen on the surface, as Bastiat might put it. One is also taught that economic actors (and we all are)desire to maximize their utility. Given that: the Athletics have failed to advance in the playoffs to the fans' desired expectations, that the team is going to move out of Oakland, that it seemingly discards endeared players for one reason or another almost every year, that it doesn't sign superstar players unless there is some deep flaw that causes their 'star' to fade, and that it not just smashes old baseball beliefs but instead also antagonizes those that hold such beiefs -- and all the while does these things while maintaining a fan base -- I think that the new direction, one that looks at baseball economically, has been a big hit with the fans...at least most of the ones here.
I can understand the bitterness, particularly from someone who disdains the business behind the baseball. you have to realize, though, without those who are willing to be in the business of fielding a 'baseball product', you'll get no product...and then no one is maximizing their utility.
I do see the connection that you speak of but I have this strange feeling that you're muttering your thoughts amongst this "esoteric new rotisserie...audience"
by LowcountryJoe on Dec 14, 2006 5:26 PM PST up reply actions
I knew it would be popular.
Why do you hate our freedldoms?
I just read a quote from, I think, Lincoln
Channeling Richard Griffin much ?
"And please don't compare this to the A's losing Mark McGwire, Jason Giambi, Miguel Tejada and the big three starters, including, this year, Barry Zito. There was never any emotion in A's scenarios. That was pure Moneyball.
This is not Moneyball. There has never been a chapter dealing with 'replacement value' for fan favourites, which is the difference between A's and Jays and why on most nights you can fire a cannon through the Oakland Coliseum and not hit anyone."
by green star oakland on Dec 14, 2006 3:38 PM PST reply actions
Something I've always wondered
It seems the A's are singled out everytime "moneyball" is brought into play.
I am assuming that bunting and stealing bases has nothing to do with moneyball as in making money off baseball (it does have a relationship with using statistics to make strategic decisions).
And why are the Red Sox a team that "doesn't run a lot", and the A's are the epitomy of evil to the old guard.
Well ...
How have they done it? Well, actually, pretty similarly to A's teams of recent vintage -- pitching, defense and player development.
League Ranks
YR SB SH
06 06 09
05 4t 05
04 03 06
03 07 07
02 08 09
You and your stats, devo
Not only that, you can tell...
'The simple answer is that
by china bob on Dec 14, 2006 9:11 PM PST up reply actions
Funny
People always accuse science of destroying mystery like they enjoy being ignorant. When Newton described how light was electromagnetic waves, he was accused of "unweaving the rainbow," and thereby ruining it. I would write a comment on how stupid that is, but instead I'll plug the book "Unweaving the Rainbow" by Richard Dawkins. He does an excellent job in describing exaclty how silly comments like such as this diary are.
Rant ends.
The condescension is weak. Can you do better?
by froggiethegremlin on Dec 14, 2006 5:14 PM PST up reply actions
more on "science"
by froggiethegremlin on Dec 14, 2006 5:30 PM PST up reply actions
empiricism
The purest form of baseball is T-Ball. Watching a kid run around the bases in the wrong direction is a pure expression of the joy of the sport. But that's not why I watch the A's. If you're in the mood for beauty and mystery, I would suggest an art museum, a ballet, or a church. Major league baseball isn't a dance, it's a game, and people are trying to win. Playing the game blindfolded and with one's head firmly implanted in the ground is certainly a choice fans and teams are free to make, but I don't really much enjoy watching the Cubs.
"Watching a kid run around the bases
Which is exactly why some people here still miss Eric Byrnes.
Hysterical
by stlouisblues on Dec 14, 2006 10:06 PM PST up reply actions
Your last sentence
depends on the metrics used and observer bias
well, objectively ...
Take that, Galileo!
True Believers
True Believers-The tragic inner life of sports fans
Should be available at any library.
not necessarily ...
And the vagina of Paris Hilton.
I thought it was like a fart in a mitten
As the sexually frustrated
or
by Ryan Armbrust on Dec 15, 2006 12:14 PM PST up reply actions
On Sabermetrics and business of baseball
by froggiethegremlin on Dec 14, 2006 5:08 PM PST reply actions
would this diary ever have been written...
Very transparent.
by FoolshGame22 on Dec 14, 2006 5:24 PM PST up reply actions
Ineffective, maybe. Transparent, no.
But you give me an idea. An informal poll. How many devotees of Moneyball out there would want the A's to build in the Coliseum parking lot?
by froggiethegremlin on Dec 14, 2006 5:40 PM PST up reply actions
Moneyball Devotee
I'm not sure what a devotee of moneyball is.
I believe firmly that statistics can be used to improve just about anything. I think the A's have done a good job since Sandy Alderson came (I m guessing by moneyball you mean Alderson and not Beane?) I think the A's are a small market team that doesnt have a lot of money and needs to use it well. I think that we can't afford to pay the kind of money that Giambi or Tejada deserves.
I believe that VORP, ERA+, OPS are better indicators of how valuable a player is than batting average and strike outs.
I'd rather the A's stay in Oakland but thats not going to happen. Stadium deals in California are always a dicey proposition, and it seems like theres lots of real estate people buying teams in CA because they are finding them to be under valued assets. I know San Diego has a big thing going on with the Chargers and a new stadium in Chula Vista as well, plus the Niners moving to Santa Rosa.
Wrong Santa: Clara, not Rosa
I'm a Moneyball devotee.
To me, Oakland is a weakness, and clearly has been for some time. It leads to the A's having no option BUT to use Moneyball tactics to stay competitive.
So, to me, the smart Moneyball move would have been to move to Vegas or Portland or Vancouver or Charlotte, where there's money and people and room to grow.
That the A's chose instead to move twenty minutes down the road says to me that they have ABANDONED Moneyball thinking in terms of the stadium, and have leaned back on nostalgia. This is the shortest team move in modern baseball history, and thus it will have limited impact; likely nothing more than a slightly larger draw from the south and a spanky new stadium that will be baseball-specific, have plenty of mod-cons, a lot more class and visual appeal, a friendly city surrounding it, and more dollars spent outside it.
If the evil marketers were in control, you wouldn't have a team left to bitch about, unless you were prepared to move to Monterrey.
cities
Vancouver and Charlotte have both seen professional franchises leave in recent history-mostly do to uncooperative cities/counties.
I don't know much about Portland so no comment on that one. It's a pretty city with a nice downtown area that would make a beautiful place for a ballpark.
more on Portland
Not remotely
The Vancouver Canucks sell 18k per night...
There's plenty of love for sporting teams in this town. Just because the Grizzlies were owned by morons who couldn't build a winning team if Shaq himself were playing in the key, doesn't mean this city of 3m people can't support a well run team.
And there's a Winter Olympics headed this way in 2010 that promises to leave a lot of stadium-worthy land lying around in a few years...
Hell, a baseball-specific stadium
Go profits, beat losses!
I still don't buy your cause and effect, but at least this one doesn't junk up the argument with the modern stat straw man.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Dec 14, 2006 5:43 PM PST up reply actions
Great post, seriously.
by LowcountryJoe on Dec 14, 2006 5:51 PM PST up reply actions
hard to prove
If you look at it, every conversation on the net has been vastly improved since 2003.
From Lawn and Garden care to cooking, you name it-its gotten better and more numerous. Probably alot of it is a function of improved and opensource bulletin board technology.
We would have to create a stat called Value Over Replacement Book or VORB for short and then analyze what Moneyball has really been worth to the Baseball discussion online in general. Over say a book like Game of Shadows or Fever Pitch.
Moneyball was the NY Times #1 business book for 2003 and that made the book a success across many disciplines and its certainly well known in the business world-but has that increased the number of baseball discussions online?
Sorry, poor word choice
by LowcountryJoe on Dec 14, 2006 6:21 PM PST up reply actions
whoops
I agree with what your saying. It certainly gave me a better understanding of the A's. As far as a better understanding of the game, I'm not sure if its reading book Moneyball, or just the extra year of experience or if the people I talk about baseball with are getting older etc.
Only a few people I know have read Moneyball though-more people for business than baseball.
I think it special to us the way Fever Pitch is to BoSox fans
Once I'll let slip by
Fever Pitch is a book about footie. Its horrendous bastard celluloid offspring should never be mentioned in any sports-sensitive company, and to suggest that it is to Red Sox fans what Moneyball is to A's fans beggars belief.
</rant>
by green star oakland on Dec 15, 2006 8:40 AM PST up reply actions
explanation
As for special, I meant something about a team that transcends sports boundries-Moneyball was successful in the business field, Fever Pitch in the date night movie community. Both featured a sports team as the backdrop, but were stories about something of wider interest.
Some books/movies are purely about the team and the team dynamic or a player. Like alot of the football movies or Eight Men Out etc. But the above two were successes in realms outside of sports.
Almost every other sports book is primarily a success with sports fans.
All of us A's fans love Moneyball, but alot of other baseball fans thought it was "ok" and a couple of people I tried to get to read the book, never finished it. They had other books they felt were more important to read.
Most of the good reviews for Moneyball and Fever Pitch came from non baseball people, I think this caused a lot of new interest from non baseball people to return to baseball after some time away.
Watching/reading all the scenes of the game etc
probably had some people going -"I remember I used to go to the games all the time, but now I'm (married/busy at work/saving for a house) I just havent made time for that lately. I think I will try and go to a few more games this year"
batman responds
by stlouisblues on Dec 14, 2006 10:02 PM PST up reply actions
Economics and efficiency
But the problem, as has already been pointed out multiple times, is that there is no causal connection between what the team does on the business end and what they do on the baseball end. Replace Billy Beane with Billy Bavasi, Dave Littlefield, or Jim Hendry and you won't have a team that's any less ruthless, merely one that's less competent, and a lot less fun to watch for statheads and traditionalists alike.
Indeed, the fact that baseball is a business is hardly a new development, and shouldn't be a revelation to an A's fan. Just look at how Connie Mack or Charlie Finley sold off star players for cash, or how the Yankees of the 1950s effectively used the A's as a farm team.
I notice you were careful to avoid my maxim
Didn't even think about it
I don't agree with that in its full generality, but now that you mention it, I've said in the past something that's a weaker version of the same thing, and is similar to what I was getting at above: that some owners try to make money by winning, and others try to make money by losing, and as much as I don't like what Wolff has done with the stadium, I'm still grateful that he's the former type of greedy bastard rather than the latter.
Either that or you're referring to a magazine, in which case, yes, I was careful to avoid your Maxim because the pages are stuck together.
Some profit by winning, some by losing
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Dec 14, 2006 6:58 PM PST up reply actions
Greedy bastards ...
I'm groveresque in the precision of my capitals
Quick question:
this reminds me of ann coulter
by Nick86 on Dec 14, 2006 9:11 PM PST reply actions
Liberals love America!
by LowcountryJoe on Dec 15, 2006 10:31 AM PST up reply actions
this is from a rob neyer chat
Rob Neyer: As long as knowledge is incomplete it's not boring, and our knowledge of baseball will always be incomplete. There's just so much we don't know, even with all our fancy figuring.
by Nick86 on Dec 14, 2006 9:24 PM PST reply actions
the cubs
by Nick86 on Dec 14, 2006 9:45 PM PST reply actions
Capitalism & Baseball
Am I going to be able to afford my 22 game package to Cisco field? Not a chance. Am I going to miss it? Hell yeah. I'm sad about the move to Fremont. But it's completely for selfish reasons. I think those protesting the move are being just as greedy as they are accusing Wolff of being. It reeks of hypocrisy.
I'm a firm believer in the power of capitalism, both to make society better off in the long run, and provide me opportunities to better my situation in the short-run. If Mr. Wolff can find fans who are willing to pay more than I am, then more power to him. Baseball is a business first and foremost, and it's his perogative to attempt to earn as much money off of it as possible.
I'm not a big fan of screwing over loyal fans. Is Wolff being selfish by moving the team? Absolutely. But is it selfish of fans to demand the A's stay? Damn right. Most any argument criticizing businesses for attempting to make a profit doesn't hold any water in my mind.
It's getting late, and this isn't as well put as I would like, but I think I've gotten across the heart of my point.
At the risk of starting an argument...
Sorry, I just don't see that - at all. You want to talk about selfish, go to talk to old Colts football fans, or Expos fans, or Cleveland Browns fans, or hell - even Raiders fans.
The A's managed to expand their draw, get a new stadium without public money, and nearly get to the World Series, all without any payroll and by moving just a few miles down the interstate.
That's pretty freaking applauseworthy, if you ask me.
No argument here
But I've read a lot about owners ruining the game in pursuit of the almight dollar.
If they want to earn money that bad, they're going to have to constantly work to improve their product, which is good for everyone.
There's something to that
By "deep trouble"...
by LowcountryJoe on Dec 15, 2006 10:37 AM PST up reply actions
No, not at all
The only way it works is if you have a captive market.
Line of thinking is extremely sad
You just made
by Graham MacAree on Dec 15, 2006 10:52 AM PST up reply actions
he makes people cry all the time
BATMAN'S final comment
It's called MONEYball, not Smallball or Powerball, or Billyball or Matzohball. And it's not just about the A's. Sabermetrics, and other kinds of modern baseball analysis, developed by real, sincere, knowledgeable baseball fans, have been expropriated by corporations throughout MLB to make money. At the same time, the fans have become accustomed to looking at baseball as a business, and the identity of many has shifted to some degree to the outlook of the owners, and their emphasis on sabermetric-style ways of evaluating talent and budgets. So much of what is discussed on Athletics Nation is about the business of baseball: free agency, player ratings and value, contracts, trades, stadium deals, etc. Not as much is about the watching of the game: "Did you see the way Andruw Jones dove for that ball? I don't think Edmonds gets to that ball." Some fans are busy with "owning" their fantasy teams and juggling numbers and salaries in order to win and succeed. Others are rooting for the current generation of young, glamorous MBA General Managers to win with their shrewdness and business sense and mastery of the mysteries of VORPS and ERA+. My impression is that many fans now root for and identify with management and their strategizing, as much or more than they do for players, and their strategies and see themselves as part of the expert elite who understand all the sophisticated "scientific" analysis, and marketing plays to this--with promotion of books like Moneyball and supporting a constant mystique and chatter and conversation among the fans who "get" the importance of the insider stats and evaluating talent in this way. Fans are now not as attached to individual players, teams, and communities. Numbers, not personalities, are more and more what matter. To not recognize that this current business baseball culture and marketing tries to appeal to a form of elitism and "insider" identity-much of which is based on esoteric stats and, more broadly, familiarity with the business of baseball and even embracing of it as a form of entertainment and even one's identity--and that this marketing strategy has impacted the game, helped to allow the A['s to justify their move to Fremont among fans who are now looking at the team's problems as money and VORP-based and has some significant connection to the philosophy called sabermetrics( or modern baseball analysis and evaluation) is not reasonable in my opinion.
I feel like I just wrote a legal brief. Ycchh.
by froggiethegremlin on Dec 15, 2006 12:33 PM PST reply actions
Funny ...
"They're undervalued, but they can play"
"There is an 'A' in moneyball"
and who can forget:
"Moneyball is the product of that which does not have money"
Classics, every single one.
fantasy baseball
Sample size problems
At least your cause/effect and sample size issues are consistent with the general anti-information posture MrIncognito deftly observes above.
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Dec 15, 2006 2:49 PM PST up reply actions
I think much of what you say here is true...
But, I do agree with you about one thing... the aura of infallibility exuded by sabermetricians is sometimes annoying. After all, the elitist, insider, esoteric stat-loving geeks did agree that it was smart of Beane to keep Kotsay over Byrnes. So, maybe you're on to something here with your thesis. ;-)
by FoolshGame22 on Dec 15, 2006 4:05 PM PST up reply actions
LCJ's response:
Are you really done posting in this thread or is it that you are done posting in the third person? Are you done posting on this site period? Are you giving up that easily?
You do understand that problem that you'll have now, right? You'll read this and you will want to respond to my sarcasm and rhetorical questions but you will not be able to because you're post title has a finality to it...to respond means breaking your word to us. I mean I could basically start talking about your mother right now and you'd be steaming mad. At this point you cannot even write back and tell us that she's deceased without breaching our trust that you are really done here.
I've seen this a few times on the web and I get this twisted pleasure in thinking of how I can torment the person who writes that they are, in essence, giving the last word [in fact, I've seen it here once and the poster wrote it, wrote it for my benefit before they went into exile]. But I don't typically have a beef with the person who writes such `last word' screeds; and in those cases I don't respond but the twisted-pleasure thinking is always in play. In your case though, I do have a beef and hope you're getting tweaked. You deserve it, too, Phil Milo Wannabe. Stand up straight and stop slumping your shoulders; your knuckles are dragging!
by LowcountryJoe on Dec 15, 2006 7:33 PM PST up reply actions
kendall was awesome this year
He's not a f'in dimwit ...
His problem is that he is trying to make his point more profound than it is -- world shaking instead of just important. He bit off more than what he could chew (or that was reasonable to chew), and, like most, he then felt obligated to defend it. Not an abnormal, irrational or dimitted response by any means.
The basic foundation of what baseball is and what it means to be a baseball fan is very much in question in this day and age. Growing up, my parents could never afford to take me to a Niners game -- not with $50 tickets and $25 parking -- they just couldn't. So I watched the games on TV and enjoyed them and to this day am a devoit Niners fan. I only own a couple pieces of Niners garb, though. I am willing to miss a game because those twits in the NFL are deciding to wage war against cable networks nationwide. It's just not the same.
The A's are my primary team and that's almost entirely due to the fact that they are the team that my parents could take me to see in person -- and that I could take myself to see as a teenager.
The changes taking place now don't affect me that much because I am now relatively affluent -- but what about the next generation of me? The lower middle class kid who just wants something to believe in? When a baseball game costs nearly as much as a football game, where will his attentions head?
I'll tell you what -- I don't know the answer to that question, but if I can figure it out, I will definitely invest in it.

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