An unpopular opinion - let Frank walk

by iceplant on Nov 2, 2006 4:48 PM PST

I loved what Frank Thomas did for the A's this past season, but his asking price will be too high. He'll be asking for a mimimum of $12 mil for two years, with $20-25 mil for three years probably more realistic. The Big Hurt was great for the A's, but who realistically would have guessed he'd stay healthy all year. I believe we won a game of Russian Roulette with him this year, and somebody will now sign up for three more years of that game. If he does have another injury to that glass ankle of his, it will probably be career ending. Also, I believe Detroit exposed his bat speed a little bit. Regardless of his incredible year, his bat doesn't get around on the flamethrowers like it used to. He still crushes off speed stuff and location, but he doesn't quite have the wrist action of the young FT. He's more of an arm swinger who pulls everything these days.
So I say take the draft picks (we need them) and platoon Kielty and Ryan Klesko (pick RK up on the cheap), get Loaiza's contract off the books if necessary (someone will take that off our hands) and go after Matsuzaka - he's the real deal. This way we stay young, the future is bright, Barton can play his way onto the roster if he's good enough, and we're still a championship contender with defense and pitching.

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Comments

Matsu

We're not gonna get him. I'd love to get him too but it's not going to happen, no way, no how. Last year when we signed E-Lo it was a flashy signing as far as the A's go. Well that $21 million contract over 3 years isn't even going to cover what the posting fee will cost to get Daisuke.

Green eyes come from yellow flecks of fatty pigment on a dark background. Some men think a green-eyed woman is exotic. The truth is she's got fat eyes.

by Furious George on Nov 2, 2006 4:53 PM PST reply actions

I 100% agree.

Matsuzaka is gonna be too expensive though.

by ConditionOakland on Nov 2, 2006 5:04 PM PST reply actions

I'm with you, iceman

I think Frank honestly "earned" more with his performance this year than the A's -- or any club that can't absorb the obvious risk that Frank presents -- should be willing to pay, in terms of years, dollars, and guaranteed payout.

I'd love to see another Platoon Hydra as we started out with in '06, rotating players in and out of LF/1B/DH -- and, for that matter, CF.

I fervently hope that Beane gets creative with the OF/DH/1B situation this offseason -- because if he doesn't, I think the A's could be in serious trouble in '07 and '08.

but jesus--rhyming is a pain in the ass! -- Rubin Sierra @('.')@

by monkeyball on Nov 2, 2006 5:05 PM PST reply actions

Alternately...

..Swisher continues developing and becomes a legit power-hitting 1B with a flashy glove.

That would be nice, wouldn't it?

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Nov 2, 2006 7:38 PM PST up reply actions

no matter how well he plays...

He's our everyday 1B. No platoon or other alternative needed there.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Nov 2, 2006 8:00 PM PST up reply actions

Oz...

anyway you could re-send that screenplay you wrote in a different format? My computer didn't take too kindly to the zip file...or at least my computer's user didn't, heh. Anyway, hell, I'll read it as a massive text e-mail, or series of e-mails interrupted by the, um, acts or whatnot.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Nov 2, 2006 8:02 PM PST up reply actions

Can you drop me another email?

Not sure I still have it on file. Thunderbird kinda crapped out on me.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Nov 2, 2006 9:37 PM PST up reply actions

sure

sent.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Nov 2, 2006 10:42 PM PST up reply actions

yes, it would

Swisher answered a lot of my doubts about him this year. [Yes, his performance was entirely predicated as a rebuke to me personally. :)]

If Swish can continue his development and gain a little more consistency, I'd be fine plugging him in as the regular 1B or LF -- with, of course, occasional spot starts at DH and regular time off.

But his modest defensive flexibility ("modest" b/c we're talking about the two left-most defensive spectrum positions) is useful to the team, especially as the whole OF/DH/1B situation may be in flux.

but jesus--rhyming is a pain in the ass! -- Rubin Sierra @('.')@

by monkeyball on Nov 3, 2006 9:37 AM PST up reply actions

bah!

I hope you guys are wrong. I would go ahead and pay the 3 year, $24 mill some people are envisioning FT getting if that's what it comes to. Having him revitalize his career here in Oakland for pennies only to go reap the rewards somewhere else reinforces the image of Oakland as a Montreal-type outfit. Thanks to his age and injury history, we're still talking about under-$10 mill per year for a guy who definitely produced better-than $10-mill per year numbers. In fact, that would probably be my cutoff: I'd pay 3 years, $30 mill to keep him. It's that nice to have a real threat in the lineup. The only way I agree with letting him go is if we're signing Zito instead.

"WTF is wrong with you people TASTELESS COMMENTS. I'm disgusted. Mocking a 10 year old's horrible painful death." --eshock

by rubin sierra on Nov 4, 2006 9:15 AM PST up reply actions

100 MPH pitches...

...I admit has exposed my bat speed as well. Oh well, I guess I'll have to see the 109 rbi and 30+ HR somewhere else next year.

So much for thinking that the 94 MPH junk that Santana threw Thomas was nothing more than a mirage.

The case for keeping him depends on the way the A's use him. They used him perfectly this year. As long as he doesn't need to bring his glove to the park, he'll remain healthy. Why? Motivation, pure motivation. Great players want to excel for the sake of performing their craft at a higher level and to the standards they've created for themselves. Thomas did nothing to disuade his perception that he can't perform.

I say keep him.

"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King

by Gerard on Nov 2, 2006 5:06 PM PST reply actions

this year I exposed my bat speed ...

... and I started getting lots of IMs from Rep. Mark Foley and Pastor Ted Haggard ...

but jesus--rhyming is a pain in the ass! -- Rubin Sierra @('.')@

by monkeyball on Nov 3, 2006 9:39 AM PST up reply actions

Go with Haggard-

pays a lot better.

by mikeA on Nov 3, 2006 9:48 AM PST up reply actions

I'm leaning in that direction

Foley offered me an "earmark," but I don't think he meant it in the Duke Cunningham sense.

but jesus--rhyming is a pain in the ass! -- Rubin Sierra @('.')@

by monkeyball on Nov 3, 2006 10:35 AM PST up reply actions

I believe you're right

but Thomas (3 years for $25 mil) and Loaiza (2 more years for $15mil) will cost $40 mil over the next 3 years (and Loaiza is only around for two of those).
Matsuzaka (5 years for $60 mil + $20 mil for bidding fee) + Klesko (2 years for $4 mil IF he reaches incentives) gets you three more years of an ace pitcher in his prime. That's an extra $45 mil for 3 more years of an ace in his prime. If he's as good as he looks, that's a fair deal for an ace pitcher who will only be 31 at the end of his contract, and who has a history of durability. It's expensive, but it seems financially responsible

by iceplant on Nov 2, 2006 5:11 PM PST reply actions

Doesn't Frank owe us..

enough to give us a cheaper deal than that considering we were the team that was willing to take the risk? I would be suprise to see 3 years and 25 mil heading his direction.

theres only one marky mark...and hes number 14

by wearit1175 on Nov 2, 2006 5:19 PM PST reply actions

Owe us?

That would be nice, but this is a business and this could be his last chance to sign a legit big money deal. Loyalty is nice, but in the end, the money talks....the A's will have to make a competitive offer to have him back.

Bring back Hammer.

by OaktownPower on Nov 2, 2006 5:24 PM PST up reply actions

Owe us ??!!!

Why not turn it around and say we owe him?

Under his contract last year, he bore all the risk, as he should have, since he was coming off 2 injury plagued years. The A's took advantage of this.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Nov 2, 2006 9:31 PM PST up reply actions

I question your figures ...

Frank will get 11-13 for 2, the second year may not even be guaranteed. We were able to sign him for $500k last year -- not that much has changed since then.

Reports on Matsuzaka say it could take as much as $30m for the honor of negotiating.

Klesko has nearly as sordid of an injury history as Frank and, unlike Frank, hasn't performed at a high level, even when healthy, in several years.

Another project of Devo's

by devo on Nov 2, 2006 6:28 PM PST reply actions

Frank missed out on the $50 Gs for Gold Glove

...but he did compile 466 at bats!

1 year/$0.5M (2006), plus $2.6M in bonuses, incentives

signed as a free agent 1/06
$1.4M in roster bonuses (if on active ML roster or on DL with injury unrelated to left foot problem)
$0.325M each on May 1 & June 15
$0.375M each on July 15 & Aug. 15

$1.2M in incentives;
$0.2M each for 300, 350, 400, 450, 500 & 550 Plate Appearances

$50,000 bonus for Gold Glove

Total?

Approx $9 - $10: $3.1 A's + I think a $6 million buyout fron CSox

One day Yogi Berra was approached by a baseball fan: "You look like Yogi Berra," the man declared. "Yeah," Berra replied, "a lotta people tell me that."

by A s Eh on Nov 2, 2006 7:25 PM PST up reply actions

I question your assertion...

"not that much has changed since then."

Obviously, even to earn a raise of the kind you're talking about, there's been quite a bit of change. Like an MVP-caliber season at the plate from June on, for example. I do think he'll only sign for two years, but it could be a costly two years.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Nov 2, 2006 11:11 PM PST up reply actions

I just posted this idea elsewhere, but....

I would love to see Moises Alou cross the bay and be the platoon/stop gap that gets us to Barton. If we could limit his action to say 100-120 games if healthy, he would be spectacular in front of or behind big Frank and cost us maybe 3 mill a year. .301/22HR/74 RBI in 98 games with a .352 OBP.

by jjham15 on Nov 2, 2006 6:47 PM PST reply actions

Agreed

That guy shouldn't cost that much and we can stick him in left field for a few games, cut Payton loose, and have TWO legit right-handed power hitters.

by Taj Adib on Nov 2, 2006 8:00 PM PST up reply actions

double agreed

He's a really good solid hitter.

"Imagine all the Hebrews goin dumb"-Tell Me When To Go

by ohad on Nov 2, 2006 8:21 PM PST up reply actions

agreed x3

100 MPH fastballs don't faze him or Sheffield, but he's the only realistic option of the two.

"We don't want haddock and chips, we want cod. In cod we trust." --Ghostigital, the pride of Iceland

by Cutthemullet on Nov 2, 2006 11:17 PM PST up reply actions

Price tag

I'm a big fan of Frank Thomas and I definitely want to see him re-signed.

On the other hand, if it's true that the price is $20-25 for three years then you're right, that's too much. But I don't think that's what the price will be.

I think $10-12 for two years is about right. If some other team is going to significantly outbid that offer, well, OK, I guess we gotta let them have him.

"...but we're also always open to hearing about other sandwiches if it can make our lunch better." -- Nico, channeling Billy Beane

by iglew on Nov 2, 2006 7:34 PM PST reply actions

Agreed! I guess I'm not really concerned about

all those pitchers that throw 100mph.

Gotta get realistic though;
Write the contract expecting 300 at bats, let incentives kick in for 350-400-450-500-550.

One day Yogi Berra was approached by a baseball fan: "You look like Yogi Berra," the man declared. "Yeah," Berra replied, "a lotta people tell me that."

by A s Eh on Nov 2, 2006 7:43 PM PST up reply actions

Said it before, I'll say it again.

Last season was a minor gamble with high upside and low downside in signing Thomas.

The next two years will be a major gamble with high upside and high downside.

Let him roll on to the Yankees or Giants and feather his nest some, then we can look forward to the quotes around August, when he's getting limited playing time and not enjoying himself, and his team is dropping out of contention, that he should have stayed in Oakland.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Nov 2, 2006 7:41 PM PST reply actions

best strategy to get matsu

Offer up a huge bidding fee, then give him a lowball contract offer. No one will match a $40 mil transfer fee, then we can offer him 7 mil a year for 7 years. That would be paying him $11 mil a year from age 26 to 32. I think it makes sense to get this guy, there aren't many free agents that are this good and this young.

by Nick86 on Nov 2, 2006 8:56 PM PST reply actions

I don't think it's ever makes sense to commit

that much money to any pitcher, ever.

Another project of Devo's

by devo on Nov 2, 2006 9:04 PM PST up reply actions

Amen to that!

He could be Nomo or Yabu. One of the reasons we all fear Zito is the fact that he has never missed a start and has pitched a ton of innings in his career and thrown a whole lot of pitches. Why would we want to trust an equally durable guy who may have his arm fall off from being over worked (ala every Dodger pitcher in the 80's) and he isn't even proven in the big show. 7 years? Why don't you call the Sacramento Kings and ask them about Ralph Sampson and his effect on their franchise. Crazy talk dude.

by jjham15 on Nov 2, 2006 9:35 PM PST reply actions

Bidding for Matsuzaka is nice

but there's no guarantee that you'll get him.

Even assuming that Klesko can stay healthy, the last time he was a Thomas type hitter was in 2002. The last few years, he's been merely decent, if you factor in his position.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Nov 2, 2006 9:42 PM PST reply actions

I'm a bit worried about Frank returning...

not just because he's a huge injury risk, but because I think the rest of the team began relying on him too much down the stretch.

How many times did we hear from A's players that they wouldn't be anywhere without Frank? I'm afraid that in the back of their minds, the players have this security blanket named "Big Hurt" that they expect will bail them out of their own failures.

Let's remove that security blanket and see how players like Swish and Chavy respond! I'd rather us move Swish back to the outfield and upgrade at 1B instead of DH.

by Flash G on Nov 3, 2006 8:46 AM PST reply actions

Your joking right....

Chavez is an offensive bust, a 6 or 7 hole hitter in the American league. He has never proven that he can step up and he's been given more than a few opertunities. Swisher is going to develop and needs to hit in the 5 hole for an entire season but you don't want to take away his clean-up guy. This is exactly what scares me about Ron Washington being our manager. If he reinstalls Chavez into the 3 hole or ever keeps him at 5 he is wasting his time. This is why we need an objective outside point of few, someone who isn't biased/blind about our players actual ability. We not only need to keep Thomas we need a true 3 hitter, and don't tell me Bradley is the guy.

by jjham15 on Nov 3, 2006 9:13 AM PST reply actions

what has Wash ever said

to give the impression that he would put Chavvy in an offensive slot that he can't handle, simply because Chavvy is a great defensive third baseman?

by OaklandSi on Nov 3, 2006 10:39 AM PST up reply actions

Didn't you watch the last month...

...of the season including the playoffs? MB in the #3 slot gave balance to the lineup that we haven't seen in quite a while. No one else qualifies for the spot. This will allow us to keep Frank at #4 and Chavy/Swish in the #5 spot. Crosby at #3 was only a dream that occured in 2005 and won't manifest itself again for some time to come (if ever).

"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King

by Gerard on Nov 3, 2006 11:15 AM PST up reply actions

Chavez is not an offensive bust

He had a tough season last year - but he was injured, and shouldn't have even been up there...

When healthy he is a great #5 hitter batting behind a power right-handed bat - in fact most clubs would love to have a Chavy in the five hole - that is if you like guys that can hit .270 with 30+ HR's and 100+ RBI's - otherwise I'm not sure what you are looking for in a 5 hole hitter.

by SD Erik on Nov 3, 2006 2:43 PM PST up reply actions

that's not such an unpopular opinion

I loved having Thomas on the team, and hope he and Beane can agree on something reasonable. But you don't break the bank on a 38 year old DH with an ankle that can go at any time.

by OaklandSi on Nov 3, 2006 9:46 AM PST reply actions

I don't hate MB but....

he is not a legit 3 hitter. He would be a much better 2 hitter, he has speed, a selective eye and he can hit for decent power, but he isn't consistant or good enough to hold down the three hole for an entire season. The 2nd half of the season and playoffs are too small of a sample. Is he the best option right now? Probably but that doesn't mean that we don't need someone better at that position. And I'm not saying that Washington is going to give Chavez the 5 spot because he's a great defender. What I am saying is that everyone involved with the A's have an over inflated value that they have placed on Chavez, that we would be better served with someone who actually looks at the production not the promise that we all saw 2 or 3 years ago. I like Wash and Chavez but I don't know that Wash can be objective with his relationship with Chavez. And....if Chavez made 7-8 mill a year like he deserves I wouldn't bitch about him at all. But as he stands now, we have an unproductive, injury prone defensive specialist who takes up almost 20% of our salary, salary that we could really use this off season when we lose Zito, Payton and maybe even Thomas.

by jjham15 on Nov 3, 2006 1:19 PM PST reply actions

again, I see nothing that

suggests that Wash would or would not let his relationship as defensive teacher cloud his judgment over where to bat Chavvy. For that matter, who knows whether some of the outside candidates believe the Chavvy hype?

by OaklandSi on Nov 3, 2006 1:28 PM PST up reply actions

Chavez hype is an Oakland phenomena....

We aren't talking about Fernandomania here. Chavez gave Washington a gold glove, they are close, I don't think he will objective. He has watched this guy on both offense and defense for years and there is no way he is impartial. For that matter, BB isn't impartial either and that is why I think a fresh perspective is in order.

by jjham15 on Nov 3, 2006 2:13 PM PST reply actions

well we obviously disagree

but that's ok

by OaklandSi on Nov 3, 2006 2:27 PM PST up reply actions

I don't understand the Chavez hate at all...

I think you have unrealistic expectations for a guy and an $11 mil/year salary - the guy is a gold glove defender and will give you .270/30+/100+ a season when healthy.

I think the problem is that he is expected to pick up the slack from the rest of the below average offensive guys on the team - but in this market, getting a guy that will give you spectacular gold glove defense coupled with 30 HR's and 100 RBI's is a bargain @ 11 mil/year.

by SD Erik on Nov 3, 2006 2:47 PM PST up reply actions

Yes it is and I love that we can discuss it here.

by jjham15 on Nov 3, 2006 2:44 PM PST reply actions

Chavez is GREAT!!!

by SD Erik on Nov 3, 2006 2:48 PM PST up reply actions

It's not hate SD Eric....

I just want a realistic view of what Eric Chavez brings to the table for his 11 mill. 20% of the A's salary goes to a guy who is not a consistant 30/100 guy. I love the glove, I hate the K's and the fact that he isn't reliable offensively for the dollar. Would we be better served with a good glove at third that could hit .280 and consistantly give us 20/80. These numbers would dictate 5-6 mill a year and then we wouldn't have to watch our pitchers walk every off-season.
We need .280 35/120 out of 11 mill and we need a vocal club house leader. 11 mill is the face of your franchise, not a 6 or 7 place hitter unless you play for the Yanks. When healthy doesn't cut it.

by jjham15 on Nov 3, 2006 3:38 PM PST reply actions

Since 2000 which is the first season he had

Over 500 AB's he has averaged 28.42 HR's and 94.2 RBI's per season. That also includes two season in which he had under 500 AB's (2004 & 2006).

If you remove those two seasons then he averages 29.6 HR's and 102.2 RBI's - all while giving you gold glove defense that also saves the defense from giving up runs every season.

He is a premier talent - and while 11 mil seems alot to the A's he is, and would have gotten more (probably much more) on the open market.

And the vocal leadership is crap - we know what he did on the bus last year - and it was also known that he is the one Macha communicated with to relay to the rest of the team - so you are speculating on that - for you don't know what goes on behind closed doors.

I for one thank god that we have Chavez - a great player that is still in the prime of his career - and you forgot that just look back at his stats in April and remember how good he really is when he is healthy.

With all of that being said - I hope that he gets his surgery and commits to losing some weight as that will aid immensely in regard to his health for next season...

by SD Erik on Nov 3, 2006 3:58 PM PST up reply actions

I'm no Chavez apologist

Hell, I even compared Chavez to Adrian Beltre in a post and sparked a heated discussion.

However, everyone has injury-plagued years. Some rabid irrational Mets fans wanted Carlos Beltran dumped after his injury plagued 2005. If Chavez's hamstring problems persist in 2007, then is the time to get worried.

Furthermore, $11 million is not all that much money nowadays. Yes, I prefer Tejada over Chavez, but look at some of the figures that are being thrown around this offseason.

$6 million might not even get you Aubrey Huff. You say that you love the glove. In that case, you need to calculate Chavez's value based on both his bat and his defense. Not just his offensive numbers.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Nov 3, 2006 11:36 PM PST up reply actions

I agree with you

by OaklandSi on Nov 4, 2006 6:29 AM PST up reply actions

How about

Mo Alou? Cheaper - He can still rake. Plus with the A's, sometimes I feel we have too many grinder's. Maybe sprinkling in a hacker can shake up the line up. Hopefully as a DH, he can stay healthy... Even though, he is a EX-Giant.

by equation9 on Nov 3, 2006 5:48 PM PST reply actions

It sounds like Moises' main

reason for not wanting to return to the Giants is that it's "too far from home"--which makes Oakland an unlikely choice on his part.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Nov 4, 2006 9:14 AM PST up reply actions

Matsuzaka? that how u spell it

No way we would get him. Hes going to be going for somewhere between 17-20 million dollars. And who can u think of that the a's would spend that much money on. They arent going to get him so lets just get over that. But i think a possible outcom is def Dunn. Hes younger and he can hit 40-50 hr's, although with a significantly lower ba, .230. I dont think dunn would b a bad option. i personally like the idea of trading the rights to zito and crosby for arod, but signing matsuzaka is more likely.

"SLAMALAMMA DING-DONG!" -Joe Buck

by smartkidfromcarmel on Nov 4, 2006 9:05 AM PST reply actions

Trade Zito for Arod ??!!!!

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Nov 4, 2006 10:01 AM PST up reply actions

I'm dumb. Ignore me.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Nov 4, 2006 10:02 AM PST up reply actions

we don't have any rights to Zito ...

he's a free agent.

Another project of Devo's

by devo on Nov 4, 2006 10:26 AM PST up reply actions

Already

i didnt think he filed yet. I thought we had to november like 20th to sign him.

"SLAMALAMMA DING-DONG!" -Joe Buck

by smartkidfromcarmel on Nov 4, 2006 5:32 PM PST up reply actions

he's filed ...

http://www.ktvu.com/news/10204669/detail.html

There's an exclusive negotiating period, but you can't trade your rights to that, anyway.

Another project of Devo's

by devo on Nov 4, 2006 5:49 PM PST up reply actions

I think November 11

is the last day of the A's exclusive rights to negotiate with their players who have filed for free agency.

by OaklandSi on Nov 4, 2006 6:19 PM PST up reply actions

Next year

The key word to Frank's contract is incentives. They can give him $10 mil/year in incentives if they want, because as long as he's hitting like he did last year he's worth it. We just need to avoid guarenteed salary.

Also throwing this in here: Next year would be a perfect season to do some rebuilding. In a couple years, we'll be done with expensive contracts for Kendall and Kotsay. That'll be a lot of wasted payroll coming off the books, which should provide us with a great window to turn over the roster.

by MrIncognito on Nov 4, 2006 10:31 AM PST reply actions