Joe Torre Out as Yankees Manager

whoa!

are you serious?? big george moves FAST!!

by gotgreen on Oct 7, 2006 11:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

ESPN link

Report: Torre won't survive Yanks' collapse, to be fired

by gotgreen on Oct 7, 2006 11:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

holy schnikeys

It's a beautiful day for baseball.

by As Man on Oct 7, 2006 11:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

HILARIOUS

That is all.

""Let's [stay] home and do this shit!"

by mikeA on Oct 7, 2006 11:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

That it wasn't Oakland who brought the dark cloud over the evil empire. But yeah it is hilarious to watch the Yankees crumble, usually I hate it when ESPN puts so much focus on the Yankees but when the storyline involves their misery I don't seem to mind so much.

by enz on Oct 7, 2006 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

That being said

I feel kind of bad for Torre, he seems like a good guy. He's better off not in the pinstripes though.

by enz on Oct 7, 2006 11:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

joe torre is a great guy

and I am so happy for him!

by Brian in 317 on Oct 8, 2006 8:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not much of a story

The Espn link did not say much. That said I really do not think it was torres fault. He is a good manager and handlies the press well, Somthing that is important in NeW York. If any thing it should be Cashman who should be let go.

I am a sports writter.

by scottofchico on Oct 7, 2006 11:23 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

YES

What the hell is Torre supposed to do when with Jaret Wright and a 43 year old Randy Johnson in the rotation, and basically no bullpen except for Rivera? The Yankees are so front-loaded it's ridiculous. Steinbrenner should can Cashman, and hire a GM that has balls, brains and is willing to stand up to The Boss and tell him he's retarded. (Thankfully, that will never happen.) That team won't win til they have a plan.

by Philip Christy on Oct 7, 2006 11:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

steinbrenner is the problem, not cashman

steinbrenner runs the front office, cashman just does what he wants. cashman doesn't have the same level of control that beane has.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 7, 2006 11:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, he's not the problem,

but he's got no balls and he's Steinbrenner's bitch. I'm not saying that Steinbrenner would have it any other way, but Cashman ain't helping.

by Philip Christy on Oct 7, 2006 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cashman can't help.

He is, in effect, George Costanza. He turns up, eats a calzone, signs some paperwork and lets Steinbrenner rant endlessly.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 8, 2006 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

IIRC

it was Cashman who wanted to sign Pavano. AFAICT, it was also Cashman who insisted on signing Jaret Wright. That's 2 replacement level pitchers for what, about $70 million?

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 7, 2006 11:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

was it cashman?

having not seen any evidence that steinbrenner wasn't involved, i assume that he was since he runs the show over there.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 8, 2006 12:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

if we're assigning blame

for the recent problems of the yankees, i'd go like this:

1.steinbrenner
2.yankees players
3.new york media
4.yankees fans
5.cashman
6.torre

one day people will realize that managers don't really matter very much. torre gets along with the players, the front office, and the media. it makes no sense to fire him.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 7, 2006 11:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

That's what makes it

so damn funny!

""Let's [stay] home and do this shit!"

by mikeA on Oct 7, 2006 11:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

i agree with yankees fans

torre has made a few bad decisions, but it's not those decisions were the difference between winning another world series and getting embarrassed by the tigers.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 7, 2006 11:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

But on the other hand,

if the Yankees hire Girardi, we can book 10 straight titles for the Yanks. That guy knows how to win.

""Let's [stay] home and do this shit!"

by mikeA on Oct 7, 2006 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

And Girardi also knows...

...how to get along with a demanding owner by keeping his yap shut! He'd do great working for Steinbrenner!

/snark

"I got a good feeling in a bad city tonight / I got a good feeling everything's gonna be alright." - Rancid, "Detroit"

by GreenNGoldSooner on Oct 7, 2006 11:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Funny thing is

the depth of Steinbrenner's man-love for Piniella allows Lou to get away with crushing Steinbrenner in the press without repercussion. Dating all the way back to his playing days, he's never been afraid to tell George when he thinks he's wrong. For some reason, Steinbrenner puts up with it when Lou's doing it.

"Next thing you know, they'll have me taking an overdose of pills."--Milton Bradley

by jeepers on Oct 8, 2006 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, Torre

doesn't seem to get a long with ARod. And playing Sheffield at 1st was just stupid, regardless of whether Giambi was injured or not.

Managers don't matter? Tell that to Mariners fans. A bad manager can really f*** things up.

Yeah, it's all Steinbrenner's fault. Every GM probably wished they had Cashman's job. No matter what you do, everyone blames the owner.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 8, 2006 12:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

hargrove is a lousy manager

but he didn't sign beltre, washburn, etc.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 8, 2006 12:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Piniella

would have gotten them to 81-83. Girardi? Western Division Champs.

""Let's [stay] home and do this shit!"

by mikeA on Oct 8, 2006 12:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

so under pinella

81-80 wins the west, there's a rainout that doesn't need to be played, and then they lose 0-3 in the ALDS?

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 8, 2006 12:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

d'oh

If anyone can make lemonade from my appalling math, it's Piniella.

""Let's [stay] home and do this shit!"

by mikeA on Oct 8, 2006 12:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

He did campaign

strenously for Jurassic Carl. And kept playing him. He also kept playing WFB. And Joel Pineiro. And so on.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 8, 2006 12:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Us M's fans

Quite like Beltre. And Hargrove cost at least 5 games this year. It was shocking to us all, since for the most part we were in the 'managers don't matter as long as they don't blow up Felix's arm' crowd before having Mike inflicted upon us.

Visiting from LL.

by Graham on Oct 8, 2006 6:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ms fans may like beltre

but the bottom line is, he was signed after a brad anderson-type season and hasn't been nearly as good since then, and i remember halfway through this season kendall had a higher OPS than both beltre and sexson.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 8, 2006 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Beltre

Was signed as a 25 year old free agent who was regarded as one of the top propects in baseball at every level he played at in the minors. His first year in the majors was fine, he was subsequently nearly killed by a botched appendix operation, the effects of which lasted a couple of years, and then had a breakout season. Which everyone was expecting from him.

Beltre is one of the best defensive 3rd basemen is baseball, and for the past few months has been OPS'ing .900 in the toughest AL park for right handed pull hitters. His production this year (defense+offense) was probably worth about $11M. I'd sign that deal again, and I know a good chunk of M's fans (i.e. the smart ones) who would too.

Feel free to rag on the Washburn deal, though.

Visiting from LL.

by Graham on Oct 8, 2006 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Basically, Beltre

is Eric Chavez. That is not the reason why the A's are thankful for the existence of the Mariners.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 8, 2006 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Beltre is Eric Chavez???

Chavy has 4 gold gloves, going on 5, and several years hitting 30 HR and/or 100 RBI. Beltre is a mediocre 3Bman who has had one great year offensively while the rest have been in the "OK" continuum.

Not seeing the comparison.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 8, 2006 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Beltre might actually be better

Than Chavez on defense. He's not technically as sound, but he's a bit quicker and his arm is disturbingly good.

Offensively, he's the streakiest player going, but when he's on he's just as dangerous as Chavez has ever been. He was the M's best hitter for several month this year (that may say more about the sorry state of Seattle's lineup, though).

It's a fair comparison. I think Chavez is probably better value but still wouldn't trade them straight up.

Visiting from LL.

by Graham on Oct 8, 2006 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure where you get

that Beltre is a great defensive 3Bman (probably one of the many faulty stats used to mis-measure defense), but all I can say is that I wish you were a GM so that the A's could get Chavez-like value from your team in exchange for Beltre-like value!

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 8, 2006 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Acknowledgement: That comment

came out more snarky than intended. Tone retracted, content stands. :-}

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 8, 2006 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

No worries

I don't mind a good debate at all :)

Visiting from LL.

by Graham on Oct 8, 2006 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I believe his opinion

is based on the fact that he watches Beltre very often, since he's a Mariners fan. Why don't go to Lookout Landing or USSMariner to see what Mariners fans think of Beltre's defense, before deriding the defensive metrics?

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 8, 2006 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Because I've long believed

that the defensive metrics are highly flawed, and because I feel I've seen Beltre enough to have an "informed opinion". I also think Chavy will likely go down as the best defensive 3Bman in MLB history among people not named Brooks.

For what it's worth, the Mariners are my favorite non-A's team (and Ichiro is probably my favorite non-A's player), and I wish the M's well. I also think Beltre is among the factors preventing the M's from competing--he and Sexson are both good players but their salaries, compared to their value, is, IMO, dragging the M's down more than contributing to their progress.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 8, 2006 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not a big fan of defesive metrics

either; however, they ARE improving, and every metric I've seen says Beltre is a very good defensive player.

Many Mariners fans have the "informed opinion" that Beltre is indeed very good; or at least Mariners fans on Lookout Landing and USSMariner.

I'm not complaining about the Mariners' struggles; but their pitching is a far bigger contributor to their struggles than Beltre. Joel Pineiro? That would be the equivalent of the A's starting Shane Komine or Windsor.

Is Beltre overpaid? Of course. So what? Many A's fans would argue that Chavez is overpaid too. I actually don't have a problem with Chavez. I like him on the team.

For me, blaming Beltre, and his contract is the easy and lazy thing to do.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 8, 2006 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Defensive stats are universally flawed...

Due to the nature of having to reconstruct process from a binary outcome. Fielding has to be measured by watching a player consistantly, because the stats have no idea what they're talking about there.

So no, I didn't grab that from some faulty stat, I got it from watching him play, taking notes, and comparing video of him with other fielders. He's definately in the Rolen-Chavez class of third basemen.

As for the latter comment, teams overvalue Chavez and undervalue Beltre. I may put Adrian's stock higher than he should be, but I'm certain that it's closer to true value than your perception of him. However, I'm also willing to admit that I know less about Chavez that you, and I could be selling him significantly short. It's what happens when you follow one team :).

Visiting from LL.

by Graham on Oct 8, 2006 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm willing to believe that

Beltre and Chavez are comparable as defenders. But Beltre's career EqA is 273, and Chavez's career EqA is 288. Both entered the majors at a very young age and were allowed to play through their struggles.

Granted Beltre is younger, but I'm not seeing how they're comparable offensively. In Chavez's worst year as a regular (2006), he had a 278 EqA. Beltre just had his third best offensive season and posted a 277 EqA.

Stat Wonk Futurist

by salb918 on Oct 8, 2006 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sure

But then you need to take into consideration that ideally Chavez needs platooning and that EQA (as far as I'm aware) doesn't use park factors correctly. Ignoring games played at home is a pretty arbitrary thing to do, but since Safeco kills Beltre, I'll do it anyway.

Beltre away, 2006: .283/.343/.462
Chavez away, 2006: .213/.329/.452

It's still not entirely fair to do this because Chavez's away numbers count Safeco (leftie paradise) and Beltre's count Oakland, and furthermore we all know that Chavez was injured and underperforming, but Beltre comes out looking pretty good.

I'd compare that to league average but my database isn't on this computer, so far too much work.

Also, any look at Beltre's career path should note that he nearly DIED in the 2001 offseason and essentially spent the next two and a half years recovering.

Visiting from LL.

by Graham on Oct 9, 2006 2:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Beltre's OPS+ this year

is 108. Chavez's 106.

Beltre's range factor was 2.96, Chavez's 2.88. BPro gives Beltre a Rate of 106, FRAR of 26, FRAA of 10. They give Chavez a rate of 113, FRAR of 31, FRAA of 17.

Beltre is about 1 1/2 years younger than Chavez.

So, both players are great defensive players who've been disappointments as hitters.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 8, 2006 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Those numbers are comparable this year

only because of Chavez's injuries. If he's healthy this year, his numbers would far exceed Beltre's numbers. That said, I haven't seen Beltre enough to comment on his defensive ability (including what I've stated above, that's simply a possible explanation for why they seem equal), but the same problems that made Chavez's offense suck, hampered his defensive range as well.

by DMOAS on Oct 8, 2006 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

How does Chavez's forearm

tendinitis affect his range?

And health is important too. Just as Zito is valuable because he is extremely durable, Chavez's value is affected by his injuries.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 8, 2006 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's had leg problems as well.

And you'd better believe that that would affect his range. And yes, his injuries most certainly detract from his overall value.

by DMOAS on Oct 8, 2006 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Chavy's leg injury affects

his movement to his right so much he has had to play closer to the third-base line just to compensate (he can't push off to go to his right very easily).

The Beltre I've seen has struck me as exceedingly average, but I'll grant M's fans see way more of him than I do so I'll defer to the notion he may be a bit better than I think--but nowhere near as good as Chavy, I'm sorry. I've seen enough to know that.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 8, 2006 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess

We'll just have to agree to disagree then :).

Visiting from LL.

by Graham on Oct 9, 2006 2:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here's how it went down:

Frantic Fox exec: George, you need to do something! Joe Buck has never even heard of the A's or the Tigers. Plus, he's a douche! What are they going to talk about during the ALCS?

George: Done. Torre is gone. Hitting Arod 8th? The guy is just bored.
We want Piniella, but if he turns us down, can anyone say player/manager?
Yeah, you know who I'm talking about.

""Let's [stay] home and do this shit!"

by mikeA on Oct 7, 2006 11:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

i love seeing the yankees crumble in the ALDS

but i'd hate to see torre lose his job!

by gotgreen on Oct 7, 2006 11:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

Good luck with that Georgie!

Any bets on how long it will be til A-ROD's gone? If George will give us Texas's money and some of his own, I'd take him, choker and all. If we act quickly, maybe we can get him while George is acting rash.

On second thought, we don't have to act that quickly for that to happen.

"Loyal? I'm the most loyal player money can buy." - Don Sutton

by vignette17 on Oct 7, 2006 11:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

torre

has always been a quality MAN. Regardless of being a yankees he has always had my respect this is a very bad move for the yankees. as good of a manager as pinella is torre is a one of a kind manager.

by jasonlbe on Oct 8, 2006 12:34 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Jeter is the answer.

Obviously he should be the Yankees' player/manager next year. He could win MVP and Manager of the Year!

Girardi...hah!! Jeter scoffs at Girardi's winningness skillz.

Certum est quod certum reddi potest.

by oblique on Oct 8, 2006 8:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

...and they should use his Mighty Intangibles...

...to build their new stadium.

Keeping stadium construction projects under cost is nearly impossible, but if anyone can, it's Derek Jeter<sup>TM</sup>!

"I got a good feeling in a bad city tonight / I got a good feeling everything's gonna be alright." - Rancid, "Detroit"

by GreenNGoldSooner on Oct 8, 2006 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

OMG Lyons!!

This is hilarious. Of all the fall guys, Torre gets the boot. I'm sure Pinella will be so much better. I think this just made my day

I miss Bill King :(

by gojohn10 on Oct 8, 2006 8:59 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

so far it's a rumor

although it wouldn't surprise me. But the Yankees' problems go far deeper than a player or manager.

by OaklandSi on Oct 8, 2006 9:43 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

torre deserves better than this.

"Very nice day in the Oakland A... Oakland A's? What's this stadium called again?" Nick Swisher on TWIB.

by larrysgurl on Oct 8, 2006 9:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Oh come on.

ESPN acts like it's the end of Torre's career. IF he gets canned, he will have a new job within 10 days.

"I guess more players lick themselves than are ever licked by an opposing team." ~ Connie Mack

by Flyin As on Oct 8, 2006 10:04 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

More like 10 minutes.

I tend to think the only two teams that wouldn't offer him a job right now are the Yankees and A's.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 8, 2006 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just thought of something scary.

Wonder how likely it would be for Wash to get the NYY job?

Although I don't think Wash would work too well with Georgie.

"I guess more players lick themselves than are ever licked by an opposing team." ~ Connie Mack

by Flyin As on Oct 8, 2006 10:06 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

will never happen...

they won't go for anything less than a Name.

by DMOAS on Oct 8, 2006 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

it wouldn't surprise me if...

Boss Hog was using the media for approval seeking. He leaks that he "might" fire Torre for Pinella to see the reaction. If the reaction is positive for him, he makes the move. If it's negative, he says he has no idea where such a farce of an idea came from, nothing could be further from the truth, I support Torre 100% blah blah blah etc etc etc. Then moves onto his next target of blame and does the same thing until the fans & media agree with his move and then he'll pull the trigger.

As overrated Torre is as a Manager (given the players he has had, it's not hard to win divisions and a few championships), he's not to blame. The blame is solely the Boss'. He's been making the decisions and he's the one who has had final word on everything not to mention put down so much pressure on his team and employees that it should be anticipated that they'd fold like this.

Whether Cashman was responsible for some of those broken players, it's not entirely his fault either. Think back at when Steinbrenner demanded he go out and get pitching, etc. and the options Cashman had. Not making a move at all would have gotten the Boss' furor sent down upon him, so he was forced to gamble with a losing hand.

Don't be surprised if they over pay for Zito, go out and overspend for the injured Mulder and trade Wang for Hudson in order to get the Big 3.

by DMOAS on Oct 8, 2006 10:09 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

If the blame is solely Steinbrenner's

would you then agree that the credit for all the World Series titles also goes to him? Why is it when the Yankees win, it's because Torre and Cashman are geniuses, but when the Yankees lose, it's all Steinbrenner's fault?

Cashman could have signed Pedro. Even with his injuries this year, Pedro is still more valuable than Wright and Pavano. With Pedro last year, their chances would have improved significantly. And they probably then wouldn't have picked up Johnson in the offseason. Since I'm also a Mets fan, I'm not complaining.

It's either the Yankees or the Mariners who're going to get Daisuke Matsuzaka.

Zito is NOT Carl Pavano. Or Jaret Wright. So I guess it depends on what you mean by overpaying. They don't need a Johan Santana with that lineup.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 8, 2006 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, I credit Steinbrenner for buying the WS

He paid way too much and was able to walk away with the grand prize. Their success was as much to do with him as their losses. Though more recently, he's become far too involved in the decision making. 5 - 10 years ago he stayed back a bit more and let others make the decisions, but ultimately, if he's willing to give anyone 200 million a year to build a team, he deserves the credit as much as the blame.

As for Zito. He's spent his entire career in the most laid back club houses and media centers in the sports world. If he goes to the Yankees, he's going to go to the most uptight club houses and a freak show media. He says he wants to play in the big time arena, but he'll fold under that kind of scrutiny. If he was mad at our fans for booing Giambi, then wait until he has to deal with their fans booing him for all of his failures in ways that we never would. Just like Hudson and Mulder and Tejada, he's going to miss us more than he could possibly know and want to get out of there.

by DMOAS on Oct 8, 2006 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Zito

does not need to be an ace, or a star with the Yankees. All he needs to do is continue doing what he's done since he came into the big leagues. Look at Mike Mussina. You could argue that he's overpaid, and has been overpaid for the entirety of his Yankee tenure. He's never been the ace with the Yankees that he was with the Orioles. But he has been consistent and for the most part durable. That's all the Yankees need.

I don't believe people give Zito enough credit for his durability and consistency. The Yankees pitching problems this past 2 years are in large part caused by health. As a result Johnson, Pavano, Wright are little better than replacement level pitchers. At a cost of about $30 million per year.

Mulder "misses" us because he's injured. Tejada is on a bad team, with lousy ownership. Has Hudson stated that he would rather be with the A's than the Braves?

Why do you believe Steinbrenner paid too much? Would you rather he behave like Loria? Or maybe the Nuttings? At least he's willing to invest in his team and build the brand of his club.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 8, 2006 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

<sigh>

Any pitcher in NY needs to be an ace. It comes with the insane expectations of the media, the money, and their fans.
Mussina has been an ace for them as well as consistent and mostly durable.
I can't speak for everyone, but I give Zito all the credit in the world for being as durable has he has. Very few pitchers these days avoid missing starts, he never looked iffy for that. And yes, for the most part he's been consistent, not always "Ace" consistent, but certainly lower 2nd, high 3rd starter consistent. And while in Oakland, when it came to big games, he's looked like a low #1, let's face it, the media and the fans leave him alone and let him be himself. That most certainly won't be the same if he's a Yankee.
None of the above names have said they'd prefer to be back in Oakland. Certainly not explicidly. But each have made their own statements (Hudson included) about how nice it was being in that clubhouse. Take it however you want to. I take it as saying they had a good thing going and while I don't read anything into them wishing to be back here, I do read into that they'd be happy to be back here which has as much to do with the clubhouse as it does with the winning.
Because of the money the Yankees have, they have to overspend for everyone. It's their fault for paying out the way they have, but anyone on the Yankees who had the option of free agency is likely making more than anyone else would be willing to pay them.
As for Steinbrenner. I despise MLB's mis-management for a lot of things, especially for letting him do what he does at the expense of the game. (And yes, I include the players and their union in that as well). The fact that he's done as well as he has under the rules that are in place are absolutely a credit to him, no two ways around that. BUT I don't respect what he's done and been allowed to do to the game. And you can talk all you want about how the A's and Twins and Tigers have done and how they're making the playoffs and all, but ask yourself whether the Rays, Jays and O's have a serious chance over a 162 games season to dethrone the Yankees & Sox on a regular basis (not a 1 year fluke). You're fooling yourself if you honestly believe they do. A big part of that is poor management on those teams parts, but they're also having to take high risks to challenge them.

by DMOAS on Oct 8, 2006 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess my definition of "ace"

is different from yours. I don't believe Mussina is an "ace". Furthermore, if Zito goes to NYC, whether to the Yankees or the Mets, I believe that he can match Mussina's results in NY. Which should keep the media and the fans off.

Would you prefer a Loria then? Or how about the Nuttings -- the owners of the pirates? All they're interested in is trying to force their local cities to build them a stadium. Steinbrenner at least is interested in building the long term value of his club. This doesn't merely help the Yankees. It helps the whole league. Whether people like it or not, the Yankees are an American symbol globally. You can see people in Asia, for example, wearing Yankees merchandise who've no idea who His Jeteriness is. By throwing money around Steinbrenner increases the value of the whole league. Unlike the Lorias, Nutttings, and the Wolffs. <ducks>

I guess I disagree with you about the problems with baseball in general. For me, the Lorias, the Nuttings cause far more damage than Steinbrenner.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 8, 2006 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think we agree on more than we disagree

Loria, the Nuttings, the idiots in TB, Baltimore & KC. Basically anyone who is looking to take the money of the other owners and is unwilling to invest it back in the team is equally as bad as Steinbrenner. The fact that people in Asia wear Yankee gear without a clue about what it means may be good for marketing, but it's not necessarily good for the game. What would be good for the game is having 30 teams that all have an even playing field in which it's the actual management of the players (including acquisitions, farm system, et al) is what determines who's good and not.

I hardly think one or two teams being noticeable around the world is good for the game. Case in point, Fox, ESPN & MLB having a concern over ratings and what team should be in prime time. If MLB was run properly (and yes the other 20 - 29 owners are just as responsible for this including Wolfe even though he's been around for only 2 years) then they'd be able to put the various series in a hat and be just as happy with any team in prime time. That should be the direction MLB should be striving for.

And while Steinbrenner as a businessman (and a good one at that, yes) should be completely resistant to this, I think regardless of all the talk, the game itself should be held above the business and that if the business as a whole were thriving, all 30 teams would be benefiting, including the Yankees, and quite possibly even more than what Steinbrenner is currently bring in on his own.

Let's face it, without the other teams in the league, no one would care about the Yankees because the Yankees would only be playing with themselves which granted might draw a crowd, but it would be completely different type of crowd for a very different kind of show.

by DMOAS on Oct 8, 2006 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

From where I'm sitting,

Torre is the best thing the Yankees have going. Credit Torre for the team making it to the playoffs, don't blame him for the team failing to beat the Tigers with The Big Epidural, Jaret Wright, Bruney, Proctor, and Farnsworth, and Yankee fans ensuring A-Rod's self-conscious failure by booing their own star.

Getting fired would be the best thing to happen to Torre the human being. No one with class should have to endure the idiocy that is the Yankees.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 8, 2006 10:43 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Best thing to happen to Torre.

I have infinite respect for that man -- he must have the patience of a saint to survive being a New York manager and the kind of things they've pushed on him. I was desperately hoping when Macha got fired that a miracle would occur, Steinbrenner would kick Torre to the curb, and Oakland would pick him up.

Torre's not gonna have a problem getting a job, hopefully he'll get to have a chance to work with players who aren't like those freaks on the Yankees. Maybe he'll start to look a little less haggard. I just hope he doesn't go to the Giants, he's too dman cool to be over there.

Lou won't be able to do nearly as well with the Yankees as Torre did. Good luck, Yanks. You'll need it.

"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."

by Kyli on Oct 8, 2006 11:18 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Torre's gonna be okay

7 mil is a nice severance package, not to speak of the NY banquet circuit forever.

If the Yanks go into Fire Sale mode, which is totally possible, We might be able to get some good players as they tear up the carcass.

I'd love to get Melky Cabrera, or even Jaret Wright at the right price, and I'd be just fine with Corey Lidle as the #5 guy in the rotation.

There are some real opportunities if the Yanks go crazy.

by connie mack on Oct 8, 2006 12:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Steinbrenner says the Yanks

are a "sad failure".

Steinbrenner was not going to comment on a report in the New York Daily News that manager Joe Torre likely will be fired and replaced by Lou Piniella.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 8, 2006 1:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

What can the Yankees do?

Here is a web page listing current player contracts with the Yankees. A few observations:

They give out (and acquire by trade) tons of no-trade clauses. Rodriguez, Jeter, Giambi, The Unit, Abreu, Matsui, and Pavano all have them, and Damon has a partial no-trade clause. This could make it hard for them to improve the team via trade.

Alex Rodriguez has an interesting clause in his contract:

May opt out after 2007 unless he gets an $8M/year raise or $1M more than MLB's highest-paid player.

There are a few contracts they could find trade takers for, maybe, but not many:

--Rivera at $10.5M could be worth it to a team desperate for a closer.
--A-Rod is comparatively cheap for what you get; the Yankees only owe him $64M over the next 4 years ($16M per). The Yankees would be dumb not to at least see what they could get for him. It looks like they have some leverage; they can tell him that there's no way they're going to give him the raise stipulated in the clause above.
--Matsui at $13M for the next two years wouldn't be terrible, but I bet he blocks any trade.
--Damon had such a good year this year that he might not be untradeable ($13M per for the next three years). More on that later.
--Mike Myers is surprisingly cheap for next year, at $1.25M. Not going to fetch you much, though.
--They could trade from their developing stable of young players, such as Cano, Wang, Hughes, or Cabrera, but those are just the kind of players the Yankees need.

Yankees free agents next year (or possible ones):

Craig Wilson
Cory Lidle
Octavio Dotel
Ron Villone
Tanyon Sturtze
Bernie Williams
Miguel Cairo
Sal Fasano (run, don't waddle!)
Mike Mussina ($17M club option)
Gary Sheffield ($13M club option)

It looks like a lot of turnover, but in reality the Yankees have almost their entire team under contract, most of whom have no-trade contracts:

Abreu (for 2 years)
Damon (for 3 years)
Matsui (for 3 years)
Giambi (for 2 years)
Cano (under team control for 4 years)
Jeter (for 4 years)
A-Rod (for 4 years)
Posada (next year)

Offensively, all they can do FA-wise is target a 1B or DH. They could also just put Melky Cabrera in the lineup and DH Johnny Damon (or move an OF to first and DH Giambi).

Pitching-wise, they're just screwed:

Johnson (next year)
Wang (the silver lining)
Wright (next year)
Pavano (next 2 years)

Johnson, Wright, and Pavano will make a combined $34M next year for their "services."

Seems like the Yankees are going to be mediocre (because of their pitching) until some contracts come off the books. I think they should take a page from the 2005 A's playbook, and view 2007 as a step towards 2008. Given all of the above, here's what I would do:

--Play Cabrera somewhere next year. Don't bother signing an FA bat, because the offense is good enough.
--Sign an FA to a one-year contract (or simply re-sign Lidle). That way, you can hand his job to Philip Hughes whenever he's ready.
--Trade A-Rod for young, high caliber pitching prospects, so they're ready for when Johnson and Wright come off the books.
--A crazy idea. Trade Johnny Damon back to the Red Sox, opening a spot for Cabrera. Damon is the only OFer they have that they can trade without consent, and only under limited circumstances (I don't know if the Red Sox are on the list). He did have a great year, and since Crisp has been so disappointing to the Sox, it might make both teams happy. The Yanks could take Crisp and a good prospect in return.

The offense is going to be good and under contract for the foreseeable future, and the team is going to continue to flame out until they fix the pitching. They should look at trading A-Rod and Damon to help fix the pitching, and avoid signing an FA pitcher this offseason. Should they do so, they'll just need to sign replacements for Johnson and Wright next year, because outside of Hughes, they don't have any young pitchers ready to contibute.

"Next thing you know, they'll have me taking an overdose of pills."--Milton Bradley

by jeepers on Oct 8, 2006 3:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

That plan sounds just

sensible and wise enough that I have full confidence in the Yankees not to follow it.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 8, 2006 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought about putting in a disclaimer

along the lines of, "If you're a Yankee fan, please stop reading." I sure hope they don't do this :-).

"Next thing you know, they'll have me taking an overdose of pills."--Milton Bradley

by jeepers on Oct 9, 2006 7:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Too bad they think they offense was the problem.

I thought it was obvious that they were going to have a problem when they traded for Johnson, but if they keep blaming the offense, they're likely going to go out and try to upgrade they're offense instead of their pitching. But they definitely need to focus on getting "quality" stop gag pitching by using their excess offensive. But they're likely going to have to eat several huge contracts to make any trade for quality replacement prospects (especially pitching ones) possible and even then they're not going to do that because any trade like that will make them look bad and I doubt they'll do anything like that for risk of their media and fans getting on them. With a 200 million dollar payroll you don't play for the next year.

by DMOAS on Oct 8, 2006 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

My impression is that the Yankees

think that their problem is having too many players who "aren't winners" and "aren't True Yankees." Steinbrenner and the media/fans really seem to believe in this crap, that O'Neill and Brosius and Cone and Key were just winners (as if that's different from talent and production), and ARod, Giambi, Sheff, and Abreu aren't.

I think they're much more likely to go into the offseason worrying about whom they need to get rid of, rather than whom they want to bring in. And that's a great way to get fleeced in trade after trade after trade while you fail to build anything at all.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Oct 8, 2006 6:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs