"A total fabrication" - Beane calls Macha a liar
And so now we're reduced to this. Ken Macha, having been trashed by what looks like an organized hit job by Billy Beane and his player-allies on the team, finally decided to tell some of his side of the story. Beane responded by calling him a liar.
Macha said:
- Beane wanted him to play Kielty against lefties, but Macha ignored him and - irony of ironies - played Kotsay instead. This decision and others like it, Macha tells John Shea of the Chronicle, got him fired.
- Macha wanted Dan Haren to pitch Game 3 (and a possible Game 7) but Beane wanted Harden and Macha went along.
Well, it's going to be a little difficult to square this circle.
The story begs the question of what part of Macha's account Beane thinks is inaccurate, or "a little different," or just a flat-out lie. It's not clear what Beane was talking about, although the implication of the story is that it's the playoff lineup/rotation disputes. Beane may only be saying that it's a total fabrication that he fired Macha primarily because of those disputes, which may be why he includes the comment about memories being "a little different." But the language - "total fabrication" - strongly implies that Macha is lying about everything.
But why would Macha lie? The evidence suggests that he is probably telling the truth, at least about the lineup/rotation issues. We knew at the time that there was disagreement among A's brass about the rotation (i.e. the "5-5 split.") Macha said at the time that he played Kotsay for his defense. This isn't some ancient dispute, subject to faulty memories. It was a week or so ago.
For what it's worth, I think Macha was wrong to play Kotsay in Game 1 against Robertson, but right to play him in Game 3 in Detroit's spacious center field. I thought it unwise to bypass Haren in favor of Harden, although their performances were similar.
But that isn't really important.
It is just plain stupid for Billy Beane to call his former manager a liar when the man is belatedly defending himself when he would have been happy enough to walk away and collect his $2 million. Beane fired him, and from what I can gather, was probably right to do so. But why add insult to injury? Beane already gave at least tacit permission for players to go public with their gripes about Macha. It all looked transparently orchestrated. And who brought an apparently grumpy Macha back in the first place to piss off the players? Beane.
Macha is clearly peeved at Kotsay, whom he regards as a back-stabbing and self-absorbed whiner.
The trouble with Macha is that nobody wants to talk to their boss if they feel disrespected or insulted. It works both ways. Macha made too many caustic comments that struck me as insensitive to players who really were injured. I don't think he did enough to back up many of his players, either on the field or in media comments. (A big exception is Milton Bradley, whose apparent praise for Macha after the wrestling match during the Angels game is yet another reason to like the guy.) Macha wasn't a good enough manager, with unassailable credentials and/or management backing, to overcome clubhouse dissension.
But the real issue here is Beane. He already has a problem being perceived as Al Davis, who regards managers/coaches as easily replaceable parts. But this perception makes it difficult to hire good managers, because who wants a job where you get no credit for winning, too much blame for losing, and players who can plot behind your back?
And even if you hire a good manager, they will be perceived as powerless, a disrespected tool of Billy Beane's. He is only reinforcing that impression by getting into an unnecessary spitting match with a guy he canned.
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138 comments
Comments
Another recap by the Mercury
I feel really bad for Macha, the media really did butcher him. His explanation for everything makes a lot of sense.
The real issue here is, though, that we all touted this "loose clubhouse" that we have, but it looks like it was anything but. Kotsay has little to show for getting to play. I don't think anyone can say that Payton would not have been able to make those 2 catches vs. detroit (he would have been CF if Keilty played left). What I do remember most from Kotsay was his pathetic GIDPs that were all too common during the series. He should be ashamed of himself for ruining his first chance to play in the postseason. Trade him now.
by ryder1650 on Oct 22, 2006 12:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Here's
http://www.insidebayarea.com/athletics/ci_4532511
by day-to-day on Oct 22, 2006 5:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So much for media competition
by FreeSeatUpgrade on Oct 22, 2006 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To me, what this shows is the clubhouse is fine.
by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our players pulled a b1tch move...
I'm not saying Macha needs to stay, (BB bring in Dusty and keep your damn hands off!) but our manager who somehow kept the team together in 2005 in addition to this year's run deserves a bit more respect.
by carp on Oct 22, 2006 7:03 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
agreed
that. just dont know what their motives were
or whether there was something deeper behind
the whole issue than what's in the press.
by oak1 on Oct 22, 2006 7:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You want motives?
Kielty should have been playing for Kotsay - you know, I know it, Kotsay knows it, being as one of his complaints was that he was sat against lefties for the second half, but then suddenly had to face them with the post-season on the line.
Macha screwed up. But let's face it, Macha was happy to do so, since it earned him $2m.
by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does he?
Really, all these violin chords for Macha make little sense to me. He can dry his eyes on the $2m he'll be paid to sleep in for the next two years.
by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or are you just a huge A's fan?
by Pucking Insane on Oct 22, 2006 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not an either/or situation.
by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
But I really don't like that the players had to bring this all out in the media. What do they gain by reaming him out after he's already gone? There's a serious lack of maturity there, or at least that's what it looks like.
Too much drama for my taste. Bleck.
by whiteshoes40 on Oct 22, 2006 8:00 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It's called honesty.
by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because it's unprofessional
by whiteshoes40 on Oct 22, 2006 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
They all look bad-Beane, the players and Macha.
The A's organization looks like a childish minor league team. Pathetic.
Good diary Bear.
by bigelephant on Oct 22, 2006 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unprofessional? No way.
We know the Yankees clubhouse was burning. We saw the Blue Jays clubhouse in disarray. We knew Giardi and Loria were brawling in Florida.
But in Oakland, the players simply decided to 'leave it alone' and get themselves to the ALCS. Beane, for his part, probably realized that a mid-season firing would be distracting, so he did likewise.
Now that the season is over, and the manager is fired, of course everyone asks 'why', and the players and bossman both paid us the courtesy of explaining it - without invective, name-calling, or hatred.
I mean, heck, look over the quotes - nobody goes on the attack. Nobody says he's a prick. They just say they didn't feel backed up, didn't have his support, couldn't talk things out with him without it getting heated, and he said some stupid things that made them feel he wasn't there for them.
He did all those things - we know that. We saw the 'non-entity' statements. So clearly what the players did was STFU until the problem was over, then simply cleared the air for the fans.
And we, in turn, take the side of the guy who got paid $2m to not work anymore, due to his own shortcomings.
Fickle bunch.
by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
clubhouse tension
by beijing on Oct 22, 2006 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But I also said it was unnecessary,
Bottom line: I just don't think it needed to turn into a battle in the press, even if Macha deserved it.
by whiteshoes40 on Oct 23, 2006 2:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This quote says it all
In other words, "Look at the quotes. Nobody says he's a prick, they just say he was a crappy manager in as many ways as they possibly can."
As a fan, I don't feel any air has been cleared, nor do I think the players have accomplished anything by denigrating Macha in the press.
A's fans would have had no problem with Macha's firing before this shitstorm, so what was the point?
What this media circus DOES do is make hiring a new manager of any substance or value a lot harder.
by jeepers on Oct 23, 2006 7:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sad
by RonandLinh on Oct 22, 2006 8:32 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Except that managers are basically expendable
by JediLeroy on Oct 22, 2006 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Especially bad ones.
by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kotsay....
by signmebilly on Oct 22, 2006 8:47 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure he did feel like an idiot.
But then, that's Macha's fault.
by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
If he has to sit anyway, why not sit him against lefties?
by connie mack on Oct 22, 2006 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kotsay belonged on the bench
by A s Eh on Oct 22, 2006 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not arguing that.
And, again, that's down to Macha. And it's one of the reasons he's playing golf right now.
by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My take is that
However, the perception right now is that the inmates have some say in who runs the asylum. Bad idea. Bad, bad idea, and must be reversed.
Getting rid of Macha: Good idea--it had to happen at this point. How to show the team that the players do not hold power over the manager? Trade Kotsay.
by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 9:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
(How to free up some payroll and
Face it Nico, if Kotsay gets traded it will be tempting to think that Billy did it for clubhouse reasons, but we all know that he's made one move for clubhouse reasons - Little G for Mabry - and if Kotsay goes, he goes for baseball reasons.
by salb918 on Oct 22, 2006 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe Menechino was also
But if all the players who went to Beane and said "fire the middle manager" stay, while the middle manager is fired--maybe for reasons having nothing to do with the players coming to Beane, but they still did and the firing still took place right after--there could be a problem...
by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
kotsay's tricky
by guy incognito on Oct 22, 2006 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's get one thing straight.
If the players aren't getting along with the manager, you either get rid of the players, or you get rid of the manager.
Macha was the disposable one. Clearly the players are not.
In Toronto it was the other way around. But to suggest that Kotsay is somehow responsible for clubhouse tension just because he, like everyone else, it seems, didn't dig Macha's routine, is silly.
You can argue he shouldn't have told the press why Macha was fired. But you could argue that about everyone else too.
The fact that Kotsay WTFed Macha at least oncce last year, however, does not give any credence to the belief that the inmates run the asylum. Especially since every single player, and it seems every front office person, and it seems all of us, did exactly the same.
by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, you may remember that
I don't believe that Beane will trade Kotsay unless there is a sound on-field performance or salary issue. He will not dump Kotsay for clubhouse reasons. He made that mistake once with Little G.
by salb918 on Oct 22, 2006 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A mistake with Little G?
by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You and I agree
If you have "inside info that you can't share" that indicates that it was made for non-baseball reasons, I won't ask you to share it because anybody paying attention knows it happened for non-baseball reasons. However, I still think it was a mistake, and if your evidence to the contrary is double-super-secret, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that matter.
by salb918 on Oct 22, 2006 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it's just that knowing
So I'm not really seeing the perceived downside.
by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You may have promised not to share....
by mikeA on Oct 22, 2006 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's because he was the team
by Tony on Oct 22, 2006 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The little g for Mabry trade
by mikeA on Oct 22, 2006 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've personally helped employees
The most important thing to do, however, is to explain it to the administration this way:
"We want a manager. We need a manager. Specifically, we need a manager who is fair and consistent, a good communicator, etc. Our manager has not been that way. Here are some examples of her failures. We expect you to provide us with a good manager, and if we don't get one soon we'll have to take this complaint up the ladder until our unit gets what we need."
The implication is: get our manager to shape up or replace her with someone who will. And when it's cut that way, the administration is allowed to save face: they're not being bullied by the inmates, they're being alerted to management failures and holding their manager accountable to simple, clear expectations.
My guess is that the stuff Macha won't name runs along these lines. He was given a clear expectation -- about limiting pitch counts, or platooning, or having regular meetings with players, or, I dunno, how batting practice is run -- and he didn't do what was expected. As long as Billy can clearly explain the firing this way to an interviewee, I think he'll be able to hire someone he wants as A's manager.
by Nick on Oct 22, 2006 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, Nick, but just remember...
...And if Beane hires Bob Geren strictly because he believes Geren is the right manager for this team right now, not because they're good friends...
...Perception is reality in the court of public opinion.
The reality may be one thing, but the perception is unmistakable. Which is to say that correlation is not causation--except in the court of public opinion.
by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a way I think Beane got sandbagged
Afterwards, however, in an effort to "defend" Beane, the players told a different story -- "Macha pissed us off and dissed us, we complained to Billy, and he fired Macha." It would be as if, at my union, we'd sent out a newsletter with a story headlined, "RNs Target Manager They Hate, Get Her Fired." We'd have been sort of breaking the tacit "cover story" we'd set up with the administration. We did, in fact, put a story in the newsletter, but it was framed around the nurses being mistreated in substantive ways and meeting with the administration to fix the problems, and at the end of the day administration deciding to get another manager.
Now, both Beane and Macha deny that those complaints led to the firing. But at the time of the firing, those complaints hadn't gone public. If I were Beane, I might ask the players not to do me any more favors regarding public discussion of his managers any more.
by Nick on Oct 22, 2006 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this
by Leopold Bloom on Oct 22, 2006 8:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I notice is that some on AN
Then Macha goes on to defend himself against each of the players quoted in the articles, but fully acknowleges that the REAL dispute was between BB and him over something. The bottom line is this, in baseball like in the real world you follow the dictums of the boss, if you don't you get whacked or you quit, simple as that. As for me I would 10 times rather have BB than Macha making any decision having to do with baseball.
by china bob on Oct 22, 2006 9:33 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well said.
by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice Job
and now they act like a bunch of children
thanks for the memories
by forester on Oct 22, 2006 9:43 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This is just sad
What's becoming even more apparent than it already was is that Beane wants as much control as he can when it comes to how the roster is used. I respect the hell out of the guy for being able to put a good team together on a lower budget than most, but at some point if he wants to do the manager's job for him, he ought to put a uniform on and call the shots from the dugout himself.
Otherwise, he should stay out of it and let the manager actually do his job and manage. That's the one big thing about Beane I'm really getting tired of as an A's fan and as much as I want them to hire Ron Washington to take over, I just have a feeling Beane will promote his bench coach and close friend Bob Geren. How close? Geren was the best man in Beane's wedding. Beane may not admit it, but his actions show all he wants in the dugout is a yes-man.
by Flashfire on Oct 22, 2006 10:07 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Exactly, exactly, and exactly,
by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But what is the manager's job?
It may well be that he wants a yes man; It may well be that he see's the field manager as just another employee who's job is to follow the orders of the GM.
by rfloh on Oct 22, 2006 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you saying Beane is right in this, then?
by Flashfire on Oct 22, 2006 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do I think the A's need a yes-man?
OTOH, I do think the A's need a manager who can work with the GM. In an ideal world, Beane would coexist with a manager who shares his philosophy, the way Dave Dombrowski seems to have been and to be able to work with Jim Leyland, in Florida and Detroit.
However, Beane does appear to regard the field manager as just another employee. For me personally, a GM has and should have a far greater influence than a manager. IMO, it should be the GM ultimately who dictates organisational strategy. I do not want a manager like Eric Wedge, for example. Wedge, at least according to media reports, played a significant role in the departures of Milton Bradley and Brandon Phillips from the Indians.
I'm no Beane apologist; I definitely am not a card-carrying member of the "In Billy we trust" club, but if the price of having a good GM, like Beane, who is capable of formulating and executing a sound organisational strategy, is indulging his preference for a yes-man as manager, I don't have a problem with it.
by rfloh on Oct 22, 2006 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see where you're coming from.
by Flashfire on Oct 22, 2006 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
IMO
As for Machagate, for all that I didn't agree with a lot of the his, I sympathise with Macha a lot too. The players, with exceptions, Kotsay especially, have behaved like spoilt, whiny brats. Beane should have made it clear to the players that now that Macha is gone, that's it. No taking parting shots. No "poor me, the manager was such a nasty guy" quotes. And he shouldn't have made the "total fabrications" comment.
by rfloh on Oct 22, 2006 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed with all of that.
by Flashfire on Oct 22, 2006 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't.
The problem here is not the players, but us.
If the players HADN'T spoken up, we'd know less about Macha's departure, and I for one prefer this option.
And not for nothing, but having watched the season pretty closely, and the playoffs even more closely, the reasons the players have mentioned seem valid, correct, and worth making a managerial change over.
So what's the problem?
by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is that
Furthermore, why is it that the quotes of the players who had problems with Macha were given prominence while those of those who didn't were not?
by rfloh on Oct 22, 2006 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
on the other hand
by OaklandSi on Oct 22, 2006 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if they don't do their job..
Macha, despite what many wish to think now that we can look at him with nostalgic hindsight, was not a great manager.
In fact, I'd say Beane's mistake was bringing him back in the first place. Sacking him after he'd burned bridges with players and execs at the team? That's a given.
by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, you ditch them.
I definitely do not look at Macha with nostalgic hindsight as a great manager. I have the problems with the sacking.
by rfloh on Oct 22, 2006 10:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh, no problems with the sacking
by rfloh on Oct 22, 2006 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's the impression
If that's the case, it may be that most really good managerial candidates won't want to come to Oakland and work under Beane.
by OaklandSi on Oct 22, 2006 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As the world turns
If half the roster goes on the record for the first time bashing him then it is safe to say he lost the clubhouse. Apparently 2 million isn't enough to go away quietly and the strain of his adult son's questions is too much to take. Get a job elsewhere Kenny, see if you can lure any of the A's coaches with you and do a commercial for the local locksmith. In the meantime, go get yourself fitted for a Pitt Panthers uni to wear on the Japan tour.
by southofcruiseamerica on Oct 22, 2006 10:27 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Did he "lose the clubhouse,"
But when you look at everything that has been said since the ALCS ended, Macha looks a little better to me, Beane looks worse, and Kotsay looks worse. And guys like Kielty look terrific.
by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He didn't lose the
by southofcruiseamerica on Oct 22, 2006 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm interested in this now only
by OaklandSi on Oct 22, 2006 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the players run the clubhouse
It could be that the best way to play the situation in Macha's perception) was to be the seperate manager, since he had veteran leadership in Chavez, Kendall, Kotsay, Zito and Thomas, he let them run the clubhouse.
there is more than one way to be an effective manager.
by connie mack on Oct 22, 2006 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, he lost the dugout
This soap opera stuff is very un-A's like, which in the big picture view is a good thing as opposed to Girardi vs. Loria, Bowa vs. all of Philly, Little vs. the Sons of Sam Horn (hello, Embree was his other option), Baker vs. Sosa/Bartman/fast tracked pitchers, Showalter vs. the ghost of Abner Doubleday, Guillen vs. humiliating call-ups in public, Alou vs. Metamucil, Torre vs. the scales of his bank account, Wally Backman vs. a bench warrant, Tim Johnson vs. the Gulf of Tonkin, Bobby Cox vs. Xanax or Piniella vs. Nurse Ratchet, Chief and a half a dozen orderlies.
The standard was set with Howe, who was hired by one RSA.
by southofcruiseamerica on Oct 23, 2006 6:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The A's denied him permission
by OaklandSi on Oct 22, 2006 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks -
by southofcruiseamerica on Oct 22, 2006 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's in the longer version
http://www.insidebayarea.com/athletics/ci_4532511
by OaklandSi on Oct 22, 2006 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Macha comes off much better in that article
Macha has repeated a couple of times that he "had an open door" to his office. And he pointed out that Kielty and Payton and Bradley came and talked with him, and if Kotsay or whoever had a problem, he would have spoken to them, too.
Especially with a position-player (not a pitcher, who has a pitching coach as an intermediary), I think it's important for a manager to seek out players to explain big decisions (such as about playing time). Macha says,
"I will reiterate, my office was open all the time. If Kotsay was really disturbed by that comment, he could have come in there and said so. As a matter of fact, in September, Kotsay did come in my office and asked me why he wasn't playing against left-handed pitching. And I gave him the answer. I said Kielty was hot against lefties, and we're trying to give your back a rest so we have you available for the playoffs."
I don't know about the timing, but Macha might well have been better off to go to Kotsay and explain this himself, rather than waiting for Kotsay to come to him.
The door is open for the manager, too. Get out into the clubhouse and go tell the players what's up, even if they're not coming to ask you.
by Nick on Oct 22, 2006 11:28 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I had a major department head
by ak_A on Oct 22, 2006 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You should tell Billy Beane
by Nick on Oct 22, 2006 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One question
If so, it doesn't surprise me that Macha would say he had an open-door policy and never sought someone out to discuss an issue, waiting instead for them to come to him and acting like there wasn't a problem if they didn't.
It needs to go both ways.
by Flashfire on Oct 22, 2006 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that was the quote that really stood out to me
by batgirl on Oct 23, 2006 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is the focus always
Let's face it, Beane wants someone who will follow his orders. Most bosses do. You can say that Beane should be politer and more respectful. All that may be true. But the boss always sets the rules. The boss always dictates the business/work philosophies of those under him. It's the duty of anyone under him whether a manager or an lowly employee/player to follow them. If they don't like it, quit.
If they feel like bashing the leadership on the way out, so be it, fail to take the high road. BUT, it's always they're option, and Macha knew what he was getting into, so I don't feel sorry for him and now that he's bashing back (even though it was in retaliation) he's no better than Beane or the players.
by DMOAS on Oct 22, 2006 11:34 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't Macha have a right to defend
Beane, and the players should have acted like professionals and just STFU.
by rfloh on Oct 22, 2006 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not defending the way the players
But Beane handled it just fine. He took the blame and said the problem was between he and Macha. Beane didn't bad mouth Macha on the way out.
Macha, by taking pot shots, yes, he was unprofessional in his is rebuttal. He could have taken a high road by either not discussing it or handling it as an adult in discussing the situation. For instance, he could have said about Kotsay, "My boss told me to platoon Kotsay & Kielty. I did so. I tried to explain that to Kotsay and he wasn't happy about it. But if he's unhappy about it, those complaints are about upper management, not me."
I have nothing against Macha defending himself. I just think it needs to be done with a certain element of tact and professionalism. I'd also like him to be fair with the situation and openly take the criticism that his actions warrant.
by DMOAS on Oct 22, 2006 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Macha initially didn't discuss it.
Why didn't Beane just tell the players to just STFU? The nasty manager is gone, that's it. And "total fabrications"? Is he saying that the decision to start Harden wasn't his?
As for the comments about Kotsay and Kielty, to me, there really is not much difference between what Macha said, and what you wish he said.
Macha definitely should openly take the criticism that his actions warrant. As should the players. As should Billy Beane.
by rfloh on Oct 22, 2006 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The whole situation could have been
Stictly focusing on Macha, you ask why he should take the high road? How about the for the sake of taking the high road. It's a mark of noblity to stand in the face of criticism and vicious attacks (which I'm neither saying he did or did not recieve) and take a moral stand. It's just as bad to have people talk shit about you as it is to talk shit back. Yes, he has a right to defend himself. There's nothing wrong with that. What is wrong is using preceived attacks as cause of retaliation.
by DMOAS on Oct 22, 2006 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why are the players being viewed so negatively?
They avoided public battles with him, something that couldn't be said for the Yankees or Blue Jays.
They managed to get past his abrasiveness and non-decision-making, even getting themselves to the ALCS, seemingly without a manager in place.
If anything, the players behaved impeccably. And if Macha's stupidity cost them games, I'd expect they have every right to explain that, especially after he was fired for the same stupidity.
by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why are they viewed so negatively?
Now I'm not defending Macha at all. He knew what he was getting into when he re-signed. He walks away with 2 million for doing nothing. He'll get no sympathy from me.
I'm justing saying that I find it difficult to support anyone over this mess because now not only do we have a whole lot of missing pieces to the story, but we've been given a lot of pieces that make this story uglier than it was and needed to be.
by DMOAS on Oct 22, 2006 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
we don't know what REALLY went on
by gotgreen on Oct 22, 2006 12:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
interesting article
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2006/10/22/shortchanged_by_moneyball/
"After Macha was fired, and surely before, some A's players did the old Pete Carroll sidestep, up the back stairs to management."
by oak1 on Oct 22, 2006 1:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The Pete Carroll Side Step?
Does anyone get that vague reference - was that referencing his time in New England? That just seemed weird and out of place.
by SD Erik on Oct 23, 2006 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
everyone hated him in New England
by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 23, 2006 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
players quotes
office. Kendall wants an extension, Kotsay
probably is trying to cover up for a below
average season with the bat, Thomas wants
a good pay-day.
Melhuse probably was one of those who did
have a legitimate grouse against Macha.
The fact is Macha wasnt bad -- this season
was probably his best as manager -- but he
wasnt good enough for the A's and didnt buy
fully into the front office philosophy. That's
what got him fired. But he should have been
given a little more space after he was let go.
by oak1 on Oct 22, 2006 1:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Macha
He's a solid "bench" coach. Always was. Always will be.
by Colorado Fan on Oct 22, 2006 1:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Byline--Shea not Slusser
by rubin sierra on Oct 22, 2006 2:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Kotsay Looks Bad
by Herm4430 on Oct 22, 2006 3:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think he look sgreat.
Seems like Beane has the same beef. And that's why Macha is gone.
To turn on Kotsay now, simply for letting you know that all was not as happy as it seemed in the clubhouse, and that's why Macha was let go, to me is just ridiculous.
The words 'clubhouse cancer' and Mark Kotsay have never gone hand in hand previously - in fact, quite the opposite. To peg him as anything less than an honest guy right now is simply misplaced sympathy for an ex-manager whom none of us liked or respected, who was noticeable only when he didn't screw up a situation, and who has a big fat bank of cash to play with now that he's been sent on his merry way.
by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No aluminum pole in the A's clubhouse
"He hasn't (from what I can see) bitched about being benched against lefties." Not correct - he bitched five days before the start of the playoffs about the Kielty platoon. Said he should not be in a platoon situation and said he confronted Macha about it. Took all of this to the press. The final week of the season is not the time to be complaining about playing time. At best, it's being disruptive.
"He's bitched about suddenly being tossed i against them during the playoffs, with a perfectly good leftie killer on the bench." Wrong again - that was Haren's beef after the Macha firing. After Macha's firing, Kotsay noted cryptically that Macha disrespected him.
If it wasn't clear before, it should be now - the firing was indeed Billy's move. But the players' Airing of Grievances which ensued was just totally lame and self-serving. To condone this type of behavior is absurd, especially if you are concerned about precedents. If fans think it is okay for professional athletes to trash the boss over what amounts to more playing time, it wil be like Festivus every day in the A's clubhouse and Susan Slusser's will need a lot more help covering the A's beat. No thanks.
by Sashulia on Oct 22, 2006 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm betting on FT in the Feats of Strength
by Nick on Oct 22, 2006 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
by day-to-day on Oct 22, 2006 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't think...
Like I said before, most teams don't hold back until the post-firing to air their greivances. I think the boys showed absolute professionalism throughout.
by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
professionalism =
Why doesn't Kotsay have a quote now that Macha has spoken? Because he probably feels like a fool.
by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 23, 2006 7:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
by Sashulia on Oct 23, 2006 7:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he definitely could
by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 23, 2006 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apologize for what?
Give it a rest - Macha wouldn't piss on these guys if they were on fire - before or after the firing.
by Ozzz on Oct 23, 2006 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Give what a rest?
The guy was part of a team that had HUGE success this year so I don't see why he should be kicked around. His 2 mil may help him financially but it sure doesn't help him feel any better about the way he has been treated.
by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 23, 2006 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's a big boy, he can take the hurt.
It isn't about what Macha did after he was fired. It's about what he did TO GET FIRED.
by Ozzz on Oct 23, 2006 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually it's not
by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 23, 2006 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And yet..
I do get it - 10 on one is an unfair fight by anyone's counting, but I honestly think that it's us (and the media) who are reading this as an actual fight.
Call me when Kotsay pulls a Sheffield and we'll talk.
by Ozzz on Oct 23, 2006 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"I think he looks great"
by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 23, 2006 7:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because he does.
I take no issue with that. I'd do the same thing.
by Ozzz on Oct 23, 2006 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why isn't he talking now?
by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 23, 2006 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You seriously don't get it?
Why isn't he talking now? Because he's said his piece, he told you the situation, and to continue talking about it now would be senseless. It would, at that point, be pointless sniping, as opposed to clarification.
by Ozzz on Oct 23, 2006 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't believe that
by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 23, 2006 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our major malfunction...
I see it as clarifying.
by Ozzz on Oct 23, 2006 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This really is getting into Bonds territory...
by OaktownRajah on Oct 22, 2006 8:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
it's not our thing, is it?
Maybe all the negative press will encourage Beane to land an off-season acquisition that'll change the subject.
by kvn on Oct 22, 2006 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it probably will.
<brrrrrrrr.....>
I always enjoyed that the clubhouse catfights took place somewhere else. It sucks to see your guys bicker through the media.
by darjeeling on Oct 22, 2006 8:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
At the junior high level,
Adults may not operate on "junior high" time, but I think the same principle applies: Given 5 months away and the promise of a new season, I don't foresee any carryover come March, 2007. Time is a wonderful healer.
by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree completely.
by darjeeling on Oct 22, 2006 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh, no, there should be a diary
by ak_A on Oct 23, 2006 6:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oaktoon's not here!
by GreenSocks on Oct 23, 2006 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bickering?
The bickering is from us.
by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 9:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel like I'd understand your point
by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL!!
by Sashulia on Oct 22, 2006 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You'd prefer I share it with other threads?
by Ozzz on Oct 23, 2006 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Beane is holding back this team...
by Green and Gold Jello Shots on Oct 23, 2006 6:46 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Overblown
by WiscoFan on Oct 23, 2006 7:53 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i'm sure macha is correct
this whole thing is being blown out of proportion, just like most other incidents from this year (swisher partying, kendall-lackey, bradley tired act, etc.).
by xbhaskarx on Oct 23, 2006 10:32 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
a true testment to the control beane had:
by wearit1175 on Oct 23, 2006 12:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hahaha
The one's with mud on their face are the Oakland A's and Billy Beane. Billy's paying a guy for three years of service and only kept him around for a year. The A's look like a joke to the rest of baseball and I'd bet that the other GMs are laughing right now. Another problem this creates for the A's is that it limits us to what managers we can go after. The myths about Beane ruling with an iron first are seemingly coming to the forefront if they already weren't, and you can bet that it'll be tough to get a good manager to come in and put up with an arrogant GM sitting at his desk conducting an interview.
Let's put 'em in a steal cage - -
Beane vs. Macha!
My money is on Macha...by the way, I'm glad Macha is gone, but I fear that the manager doesn't make a difference...at least in Oakland.
by RunRickeyRun on Oct 23, 2006 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We already have three great managers...
They're called:
Geren
Washington
Lachemann
by Ozzz on Oct 23, 2006 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yikes!
by bigelephant on Oct 23, 2006 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The difference between a great manager..
There's great managers all over the league, running shitty teams that would be far shittier if not for the bossman.
And there's really ordinary managers all over the league that are called 'great' because a guy named Pujols gets drafted by their boss.
Macha blew as a manager. He was baseline average, at best. Any of the three mentioned above will be better than he, and if the one picked is named Washington, I tend to think he could be one of the greats.
But hey, opinions being like assholes and all...
by Ozzz on Oct 23, 2006 8:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
can't disagree with any of that
by bigelephant on Oct 24, 2006 5:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not so sure, man...
Regardless of this brouhaha, at the end of the day, the A's ARE coming off of a playoff run -- there's 26 teams that shouldn't really laugh. And while there's plenty of GMs that run an environment better suited to a manager, Billy Beane's team had the lowest payroll of any ALCS competitor.
There's always going to be managers who want a ring and are willing to take a year or two of shit in order to get that.
And it certainly cuts out plenty of managers, having a guy like Beane around, but do we really want a lot of those guys? A number of them would be experienced managers -- the Pinellas, the La Russas, etc -- that all would garner significant money in their contracts.
Getting inexperienced guys is far more cost-effective and these guys are very unlikely to turn down a major league job, even if it is for Billy Beane.
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on Oct 23, 2006 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And by 'ALCS' I meant Championship Series
"No. It's Oakland."
by Kyli on Oct 23, 2006 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 23, 2006 1:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but
by peanut gallery on Oct 23, 2006 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
not to be a prick
by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 23, 2006 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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