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"A total fabrication" - Beane calls Macha a liar

And so now we're reduced to this.  Ken Macha, having been trashed by what looks like an organized hit job by Billy Beane and his player-allies on the team, finally decided to tell some of his side of the story.  Beane responded by calling him a liar.

Macha said:

  1. Beane wanted him to play Kielty against lefties, but Macha ignored him and - irony of ironies - played Kotsay instead.  This decision and others like it, Macha tells John Shea of the Chronicle, got him fired.
  2. Macha wanted Dan Haren to pitch Game 3 (and a possible Game 7) but Beane wanted Harden and Macha went along.
Beane responded to this by calling Macha's view of events "a total fabrication" and says Macha's memory of some events is "a little different" and that this is why it's good Macha and the A's are parting ways.

Star-divide

Well, it's going to be a little difficult to square this circle.

The story begs the question of what part of Macha's account Beane thinks is inaccurate, or "a little different," or just a flat-out lie.  It's not clear what Beane was talking about, although the implication of the story is that it's the playoff lineup/rotation disputes.  Beane may only be saying that it's a total fabrication that he fired Macha primarily because of those disputes, which may be why he includes the comment about memories being "a little different."  But the language - "total fabrication" - strongly implies that Macha is lying about everything.

But why would Macha lie?  The evidence suggests that he is probably telling the truth, at least about the lineup/rotation issues.  We knew at the time that there was disagreement among A's brass about the rotation (i.e. the "5-5 split.")  Macha said at the time that he played Kotsay for his defense.  This isn't some ancient dispute, subject to faulty memories.  It was a week or so ago.

For what it's worth, I think Macha was wrong to play Kotsay in Game 1 against Robertson, but right to play him in Game 3 in Detroit's spacious center field.  I thought it unwise to bypass Haren in favor of Harden, although their performances were similar.

But that isn't really important.  

It is just plain stupid for Billy Beane to call his former manager a liar when the man is belatedly defending himself when he would have been happy enough to walk away and collect his $2 million.  Beane fired him, and from what I can gather, was probably right to do so.  But why add insult to injury?  Beane already gave at least tacit permission for players to go public with their gripes about Macha.  It all looked transparently orchestrated.  And who brought an apparently grumpy Macha back in the first place to piss off the players?  Beane.

Macha is clearly peeved at Kotsay, whom he regards as a back-stabbing and self-absorbed whiner.  

The trouble with Macha is that nobody wants to talk to their boss if they feel disrespected or insulted.  It works both ways.  Macha made too many caustic comments that struck me as insensitive to players who really were injured.  I don't think he did enough to back up many of his players, either on the field or in media comments.  (A big exception is Milton Bradley, whose apparent praise for Macha after the wrestling match during the Angels game is yet another reason to like the guy.)  Macha wasn't a good enough manager, with unassailable credentials and/or management backing, to overcome clubhouse dissension.

But the real issue here is Beane.  He already has a problem being perceived as Al Davis, who regards managers/coaches as easily replaceable parts.  But this perception makes it difficult to hire good managers, because who wants a job where you get no credit for winning, too much blame for losing, and players who can plot behind your back?

And even if you hire a good manager, they will be perceived as powerless, a disrespected tool of Billy Beane's.  He is only reinforcing that impression by getting into an unnecessary spitting match with a guy he canned.

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Another recap by the Mercury
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/baseball/mlb/oakland_athletics/15820506.htm

I feel really bad for Macha, the media really did butcher him. His explanation for everything makes a lot of sense.

The real issue here is, though, that we all touted this "loose clubhouse" that we have, but it looks like it was anything but. Kotsay has little to show for getting to play. I don't think anyone can say that Payton would not have been able to make those 2 catches vs. detroit (he would have been CF if Keilty played left). What I do remember most from Kotsay was his pathetic GIDPs that were all too common during the series. He should be ashamed of himself for ruining his first chance to play in the postseason. Trade him now.

by ryder1650 on Oct 22, 2006 12:51 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Here's
a longer version of that story:

http://www.insidebayarea.com/athletics/ci_4532511

"We are a complete freak show." -- Billy Beane

by day-to-day on Oct 22, 2006 5:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So much for media competition
Note that this same article runs in both SJ Merc and the Tribune group, all now one under the tightfisted Media News umbrella, as is every major daily in the Bay Area 'cept the Chron.
I threw that horseshoe into the weeds to see what luck can bring

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Oct 22, 2006 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

To me, what this shows is the clubhouse is fine.
The only player that everyone in the team seems to believe deserved to be let go, is Macha. Nobody is putting crap on Kotsay or Beane or Jimenez, they're putting crap on Macha, and if you watched closely during the playoffs, every drop if poison sent his way is valid.
"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can say
that Payton would not have made those catches.
"Next thing you know, they'll have me taking an overdose of pills."--Milton Bradley

by jeepers on Oct 23, 2006 7:12 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Our players pulled a b1tch move...
all of that stuff should have never been said to the public.  What happened to the tight clubhouse, and the general motto of "what happens here, stays here."  I'm disappointed in everyone of them.

I'm not saying Macha needs to stay, (BB bring in Dusty and keep your damn hands off!) but our manager who somehow kept the team together in 2005 in addition to this year's run deserves a bit more respect.

Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay.

by carp on Oct 22, 2006 7:03 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

agreed
its worrying to see the players come out like
that. just dont know what their motives were
or whether there was something deeper behind
the whole issue than what's in the press.

by oak1 on Oct 22, 2006 7:23 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You want motives?
They nearly got to the World Series, and did so without an actual manager in place. There's the motive.

Kielty should have been playing for Kotsay - you know, I know it, Kotsay knows it, being as one of his complaints was that he was sat against lefties for the second half, but then suddenly had to face them with the post-season on the line.

Macha screwed up. But let's face it, Macha was happy to do so, since it earned him $2m.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does he?
How do you know it was Macha that kept the team together? From what I see, the team kept themselves together, despite a common distrust/dislike for the guy making bizarro decisions for them.

Really, all these violin chords for Macha make little sense to me. He can dry his eyes on the $2m he'll be paid to sleep in for the next two years.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not an either/or situation.
Yeah, I'm a huge A's fan. You're not?
"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow.
I'm not really sure what to think, but Kotsay sure sounds like a jerk, especially after hearing Macha's side of the story. And Beane is getting a bit too controlling, or else I'm just realizing the extent of his control now.

But I really don't like that the players had to bring this all out in the media. What do they gain by reaming him out after he's already gone? There's a serious lack of maturity there, or at least that's what it looks like.

Too much drama for my taste. Bleck.

"He's the heart and soul of the green and gold."

by whiteshoes40 on Oct 22, 2006 8:00 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

It's called honesty.
And since they can't discuss it while the guy is in office, why shouldn't they come clean once he's gone?
"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because it's unprofessional
and unnecessary. Of course they shouldn't discuss it during the season, and I'm glad they didn't, but I don't see what they or anybody had to gain by spilling everything to the press right after the firing. They're just making themselves look worse, IMO.
"He's the heart and soul of the green and gold."

by whiteshoes40 on Oct 22, 2006 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

exactly
I've been saying the exact same thing since the shit hit the fan...and now it's getting splattered on everyone. As it should.

They all look bad-Beane, the players and Macha.

The A's organization looks like a childish minor league team. Pathetic.

Good diary Bear.

"The Matt Watson/Chiba Lotte Marines Fan Club"-Through Oct 1st: GMS:68,AVG:.271,OBP:.362,SLG:.419, doubles:12, homers:5, RBI:20

by bigelephant on Oct 22, 2006 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unprofessional? No way.
Unprofessional would be to spill while the season is running. And let's be honest, what other team with clubhouse tension can you think of where that sort of thing hasn't leaked at the first sign of bad results?

We know the Yankees clubhouse was burning. We saw the Blue Jays clubhouse in disarray. We knew Giardi and Loria were brawling in Florida.

But in Oakland, the players simply decided to 'leave it alone' and get themselves to the ALCS. Beane, for his part, probably realized that a mid-season firing would be distracting, so he did likewise.

Now that the season is over, and the manager is fired, of course everyone asks 'why', and the players and bossman both paid us the courtesy of explaining it - without invective, name-calling, or hatred.

I mean, heck, look over the quotes - nobody goes on the attack. Nobody says he's a prick. They just say they didn't feel backed up, didn't have his support, couldn't talk things out with him without it getting heated, and he said some stupid things that made them feel he wasn't there for them.

He did all those things - we know that. We saw the 'non-entity' statements. So clearly what the players did was STFU until the problem was over, then simply cleared the air for the fans.

And we, in turn, take the side of the guy who got paid $2m to not work anymore, due to his own shortcomings.

Fickle bunch.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

clubhouse tension
we can't think of a team with clubhouse tension where it wasn't leaked precisely because it wasn't leaked.  

by beijing on Oct 22, 2006 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But I also said it was unnecessary,
and I think this is where we disagree. You are glad that they "cleared the air for the fans"; I, and some of the others in this thread, would rather they had kept it to themselves. In one sense, it's nice to know what's actually going on, but I'm still not sure we do know the whole story, and I don't think we ever will.

Bottom line: I just don't think it needed to turn into a battle in the press, even if Macha deserved it.

"He's the heart and soul of the green and gold."

by whiteshoes40 on Oct 23, 2006 2:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This quote says it all
I mean, heck, look over the quotes - nobody goes on the attack. Nobody says he's a prick. They just say they didn't feel backed up, didn't have his support, couldn't talk things out with him without it getting heated, and he said some stupid things that made them feel he wasn't there for them.

In other words, "Look at the quotes.  Nobody says he's a prick, they just say he was a crappy manager in as many ways as they possibly can."

As a fan, I don't feel any air has been cleared, nor do I think the players have accomplished anything by denigrating Macha in the press.  

A's fans would have had no problem with Macha's firing before this shitstorm, so what was the point?  

What this media circus DOES do is make hiring a new manager of any substance or value a lot harder.

"Next thing you know, they'll have me taking an overdose of pills."--Milton Bradley

by jeepers on Oct 23, 2006 7:32 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sad
In my opinion if you have to back up your Managers over the employees. Billy that is Leadership 101.

by RonandLinh on Oct 22, 2006 8:32 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Except that managers are basically expendable
It's a shame that families get torn apart by something as simple as wild dogs. -Jack Handey

by JediLeroy on Oct 22, 2006 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Especially bad ones.
"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kotsay....
...I hope you feel like an idiot. (thats probably why he declined to comment.)
www.myspace.com/roneal Proud to be an Athletic Supporter!

by signmebilly on Oct 22, 2006 8:47 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure he did feel like an idiot.
Going out there to swing at the best lefty starters in the game, having not faced lefties since the all-star break, he probably felt like an utter fool.

But then, that's Macha's fault.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree
I feel there's a consensus that Kotsay needed to rest during the regular season so he'd have something in the tank at the end of the year. Look at how he broke down at the end of 2005.

If he has to sit anyway, why not sit him against lefties?

by connie mack on Oct 22, 2006 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not arguing that.
I'm arguing that, to suddenly pit him against lefties in the playoffs, was dumb, especially since he hadn't been facing them for months.

And, again, that's down to Macha. And it's one of the reasons he's playing golf right now.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My take is that
the A's clubhouse is fine--that it Macha didn't cause it to be good, but he also didn't cause it not to be able to be good.

However, the perception right now is that the inmates have some say in who runs the asylum. Bad idea. Bad, bad idea, and must be reversed.

Getting rid of Macha: Good idea--it had to happen at this point. How to show the team that the players do not hold power over the manager? Trade Kotsay.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 9:10 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

(How to free up some payroll and
get rid of a declining-offense bad-back [yet remarkably fun to watch] CFer: trade Kotsay.)

Face it Nico, if Kotsay gets traded it will be tempting to think that Billy did it for clubhouse reasons, but we all know that he's made one move for clubhouse reasons - Little G for Mabry - and if Kotsay goes, he goes for baseball reasons.

Stat Wonk Futurist

by salb918 on Oct 22, 2006 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe Menechino was also
dealt for clubhouse reasons, as were T-Long, Rhodes and Redman. Now Kotsay has been a "clubhouse positive" with the A's, which complicates things--now he is the "too powerful" clubhouse "positive". He is also pretty expensive, declining a bit...Lots of reasons not to return him to the Green & Gold in 2007.

But if all the players who went to Beane and said "fire the middle manager" stay, while the middle manager is fired--maybe for reasons having nothing to do with the players coming to Beane, but they still did and the firing still took place right after--there could be a problem...

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

kotsay's tricky
because he does appear to be a clubhouse leader of sorts, but comes off as a baby and a bit of a backstabber w/ macha. i do think that if we could trade him and get some decent prospects in return, we should. it would be a good baseball move, talent-wise and payroll-wise, and would make it clear that the inmates do not run the asylum. the concern w/ it, though, is the fact that kotsay seems to be one of the true veteran leaders of the team (which makes his comments all the more messed up), and shipping him out might be bad for clubhouse morale.
"welcome to ME, motherf*^*er!" - tim hudson

by guy incognito on Oct 22, 2006 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's get one thing straight.
Kotsay is not T-Long. Kotsay isn't why Macha was fired. Kotsay didn't orchestrate anything.

If the players aren't getting along with the manager, you either get rid of the players, or you get rid of the manager.

Macha was the disposable one. Clearly the players are not.

In Toronto it was the other way around. But to suggest that Kotsay is somehow responsible for clubhouse tension just because he, like everyone else, it seems, didn't dig Macha's routine, is silly.

You can argue he shouldn't have told the press why Macha was fired. But you could argue that about everyone else too.

The fact that Kotsay WTFed Macha at least oncce last year, however, does not give any credence to the belief that the inmates run the asylum. Especially since every single player, and it seems every front office person, and it seems all of us, did exactly the same.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Uh, you may remember that
T-Long, Rhodes, and Redman all had dreadful performance records before they were dealt.  Giambi had an 861 OPS when he was dealt for a journeman pinch-hitter.  You might make the case that T-Long, Rhodes, and Redman were dealt in part for clubhouse reasons, but you can't deny that the trades attempted to improve on-the-field performance (or payroll, in the cases of Lilly and Lidle).  The trade of Little G had no basis whatsoever in performance.

I don't believe that Beane will trade Kotsay unless there is a sound on-field performance or salary issue.  He will not dump Kotsay for clubhouse reasons.  He made that mistake once with Little G.

Stat Wonk Futurist

by salb918 on Oct 22, 2006 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

A mistake with Little G?
I happen to have some "inside info" that I can't share, but let me just suggest that it was no mistake and that the trade was made partly, if not largely, for non-baseball reasons.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You and I agree
that Giambi was traded for non-baseball reasons.  I think it was a mistake to do so, and judging by Beane's acquisition record, he has not traded for or acquired players for non-baseball reasons.

If you have "inside info that you can't share" that indicates that it was made for non-baseball reasons, I won't ask you to share it because anybody paying attention knows it happened for non-baseball reasons.  However, I still think it was a mistake, and if your evidence to the contrary is double-super-secret, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that matter.

Stat Wonk Futurist

by salb918 on Oct 22, 2006 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, it's just that knowing
what I know, I don't believe it was a mistake. What I'm unclear on from your end is why you feel it was a mistake--from any point of view. Mabry helped the A's a lot that year, the A's took off from stinking to excelling following the trade (and other moves made at the same time), and following the trade Jeremy Giambi quickly spiraled into obscurity, while the A's continue to be successful and had a happy clubhouse.

So I'm not really seeing the perceived downside.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's because he was the team
weed dealer.
I'll try not to swear.

by Tony on Oct 22, 2006 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've personally helped employees
get managers fired, since I was a staff representative with a nurses' union for 4 years.  There are nurse managers out there who are irresponsible, abusive, arbitrary, nasty, disrespectful, or incompetent, and when the nurses they supervise decide they've had enough, they can organize to get their boss axed.

The most important thing to do, however, is to explain it to the administration this way:  

"We want a manager.  We need a manager.  Specifically, we need a manager who is fair and consistent, a good communicator, etc.  Our manager has not been that way.  Here are some examples of her failures.  We expect you to provide us with a good manager, and if we don't get one soon we'll have to take this complaint up the ladder until our unit gets what we need."

The implication is:  get our manager to shape up or replace her with someone who will.  And when it's cut that way, the administration is allowed to save face:  they're not being bullied by the inmates, they're being alerted to management failures and holding their manager accountable to simple, clear expectations.

My guess is that the stuff Macha won't name runs along these lines.  He was given a clear expectation -- about limiting pitch counts, or platooning, or having regular meetings with players, or, I dunno, how batting practice is run -- and he didn't do what was expected.  As long as Billy can clearly explain the firing this way to an interviewee, I think he'll be able to hire someone he wants as A's manager.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Oct 22, 2006 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed, Nick, but just remember...
...If Beane fired Macha for reasons having nothing to do with Kotsay's, and other players', going to him, but fired Macha right after Kotsay and other players went to him...

...And if Beane hires Bob Geren strictly because he believes Geren is the right manager for this team right now, not because they're good friends...

...Perception is reality in the court of public opinion.

The reality may be one thing, but the perception is unmistakable. Which is to say that correlation is not causation--except in the court of public opinion.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In a way I think Beane got sandbagged
by the players.  That is, when Beane fired Macha the players hadn't gone public, at that point or ever during the season.  So when he fired Macha, he seemed to have managed the public perception -- it wasn't the players whining, it was Beane not liking what Macha had done.  And even if prospective managers don't like the specific demands Beane places on his managers, if he's up front about those demands they have to at least recognize that Beane gets to set those conditions as the GM and probably respect his decision to stick to his guns and fire someone who just won't meet the basic conditions of managing the A's.

Afterwards, however, in an effort to "defend" Beane, the players told a different story -- "Macha pissed us off and dissed us, we complained to Billy, and he fired Macha."  It would be as if, at my union, we'd sent out a newsletter with a story headlined, "RNs Target Manager They Hate, Get Her Fired."  We'd have been sort of breaking the tacit "cover story" we'd set up with the administration.  We did, in fact, put a story in the newsletter, but it was framed around the nurses being mistreated in substantive ways and meeting with the administration to fix the problems, and at the end of the day administration deciding to get another manager.

Now, both Beane and Macha deny that those complaints led to the firing.  But at the time of the firing, those complaints hadn't gone public.  If I were Beane, I might ask the players not to do me any more favors regarding public discussion of his managers any more.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Oct 22, 2006 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Excisely.
That's prexactly it.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with this
Wait, I thought disagreed about this issue?
I love me some Esteban.

by Leopold Bloom on Oct 22, 2006 8:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What I notice is that some on AN
do exactly what journalists do, they listen and then voice their own theories on what happened.  Go back to BB's comments after the firing, he said clearly that the players had nothing to do with the firing, that it was a "disconnect" between the front office, the player developement and Macha.  Macha confirms this, saying only that he was disappointed with the players but that the real reason was a dispute between the front office and him, and that BB had not told the real reason so he felt compelled to.
Then Macha goes on to defend himself against each of the players quoted in the articles, but fully acknowleges that the REAL dispute was between BB and him over something.  The bottom line is this, in baseball like in the real world you follow the dictums of the boss, if you don't you get whacked or you quit, simple as that.  As for me I would 10 times rather have BB than Macha making any decision having to do with baseball.

by china bob on Oct 22, 2006 9:33 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Well said.
"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice Job
Most successful season in 14 years

and now they act like a bunch of children

thanks for the memories

by forester on Oct 22, 2006 9:43 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

This is just sad
Now it's reached the point of Macha saying one thing, Beane saying another, and I'm really getting the feeling that this is turning into something where, while Macha had his flaws, he was basically dumped because a few players got vocal and Beane just wanted to be rid of him - which makes you wonder why Beane brought him back in the first place after last season.

What's becoming even more apparent than it already was is that Beane wants as much control as he can when it comes to how the roster is used. I respect the hell out of the guy for being able to put a good team together on a lower budget than most, but at some point if he wants to do the manager's job for him, he ought to put a uniform on and call the shots from the dugout himself.

Otherwise, he should stay out of it and let the manager actually do his job and manage. That's the one big thing about Beane I'm really getting tired of as an A's fan and as much as I want them to hire Ron Washington to take over, I just have a feeling Beane will promote his bench coach and close friend Bob Geren. How close? Geren was the best man in Beane's wedding. Beane may not admit it, but his actions show all he wants in the dugout is a yes-man.

Bottom of the 9th - Baseball photojournalism by James Venes

by Flashfire on Oct 22, 2006 10:07 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Exactly, exactly, and exactly,
Flashfire. If he knew how to pick the right manager and give him the respect of trusting him and leaving him alone, Billy Beane would be a near-perfect GM. Unfortunately...
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But what is the manager's job?
Billy Beane seems to have a different idea of what the manager's job is, than say, you.

It may well be that he wants a yes man; It may well be that he see's the field manager as just another employee who's job is to follow the orders of the GM.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 22, 2006 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you saying Beane is right in this, then?
Setting aside the flaws Macha had, do you think a manager who is basically a yes-man is what the A's need just because it seems that's what Beane wants?
Bottom of the 9th - Baseball photojournalism by James Venes

by Flashfire on Oct 22, 2006 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do I think the A's need a yes-man?
No.

OTOH, I do think the A's need a manager who can work with the GM. In an ideal world, Beane would coexist with a manager who shares his philosophy, the way Dave Dombrowski seems to have been and to be able to work with Jim Leyland, in Florida and Detroit.

However, Beane does appear to regard the field manager as just another employee. For me personally, a GM has and should have a far greater influence than a manager. IMO, it should be the GM ultimately who dictates organisational strategy. I do not want a manager like Eric Wedge, for example. Wedge, at least according to media reports, played a significant role in the departures of Milton Bradley and Brandon Phillips from the Indians.

I'm no Beane apologist; I definitely am not a card-carrying member of the "In Billy we trust" club, but if the price of having a good GM, like Beane, who is capable of formulating and executing a sound organisational strategy, is indulging his preference for a yes-man as manager, I don't have a problem with it.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 22, 2006 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I see where you're coming from.
The only part I'll single out there is in regards to needing a manager who can work with the GM, because it's becoming increasingly obvious that working with the GM means doing everything he tells you to without question.
Bottom of the 9th - Baseball photojournalism by James Venes

by Flashfire on Oct 22, 2006 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

IMO
Beane, before hiring a manager, should be VERY clear about his expectations to the manager; he should also make it very clear to the manager that if the manager cannot accept those conditions, he should NOT take the job.

As for Machagate, for all that I didn't agree with a lot of the his, I sympathise with Macha a lot too. The players, with exceptions, Kotsay especially, have behaved like spoilt, whiny brats. Beane should have made it clear to the players that now that Macha is gone, that's it. No taking parting shots. No "poor me, the manager was such a nasty guy" quotes. And he shouldn't have made the "total fabrications" comment.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 22, 2006 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed with all of that.
Bottom of the 9th - Baseball photojournalism by James Venes

by Flashfire on Oct 22, 2006 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't.
A player says, "Yeah, well here's why Macha being fired isn't sad for us," and rather than appreciating the information, we take it as a bunch of whiny brats looking to lob verbal bombs.

The problem here is not the players, but us.

If the players HADN'T spoken up, we'd know less about Macha's departure, and I for one prefer this option.

And not for nothing, but having watched the season pretty closely, and the playoffs even more closely, the reasons the players have mentioned seem valid, correct, and worth making a managerial change over.

So what's the problem?

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The problem is that
we or as you say "I for one prefer this option". The  problem is that we really shouold NOT know about how some players didn't like Macha. What would your reaction be if Macha, on his way out took shots at Beane, Kotsay etc? What if Macha on his way out pointed out picked over Beane's mistakes?

Furthermore, why is it that the quotes of the players who had problems with Macha were given prominence while those of those who didn't were not?

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 22, 2006 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

on the other hand
one of the keys to good top level administration is being able to delegate authority and let the middle managers do their job.

by OaklandSi on Oct 22, 2006 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And if they don't do their job..
...or do it poorly, or damage relations with other employees, you ditch them.

Macha, despite what many wish to think now that we can look at him with nostalgic hindsight, was not a great manager.

In fact, I'd say Beane's mistake was bringing him back in the first place. Sacking him after he'd burned bridges with players and execs at the team? That's a given.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, you ditch them.
You don't let other employees take parting shots.

I definitely do not look at Macha with nostalgic hindsight as a great manager. I have the problems with the sacking.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 22, 2006 10:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ugh, no problems with the sacking
On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 22, 2006 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's the impression
we've gotten from numerous articles, not to mention Moneyball and Aces.

If that's the case, it may be that most really good managerial candidates won't want to come to Oakland and work under Beane.

by OaklandSi on Oct 22, 2006 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

As the world turns
Funny how Macha is getting all this attention now that he is gone. It has been a long time coming - ever since he pulled Dye AFTER Little wiggled four fingers for the intentional walk.

If half the roster goes on the record for the first time bashing him then it is safe to say he lost the clubhouse. Apparently 2 million isn't enough to go away quietly and the strain of his adult son's questions is too much to take. Get a job elsewhere Kenny, see if you can lure any of the A's coaches with you and do a commercial for the local locksmith. In the meantime, go get yourself fitted for a Pitt Panthers uni to wear on the Japan tour.

by southofcruiseamerica on Oct 22, 2006 10:27 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Did he "lose the clubhouse,"
or was "the clubhouse lost"? Some say Macha caused it, others say he had a lot of help. And none of us can ever really know.

But when you look at everything that has been said since the ALCS ended, Macha looks a little better to me, Beane looks worse, and Kotsay looks worse. And guys like Kielty look terrific.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He didn't lose the
clubhouse in that everyone quit, more that they were close knit enough to succeed in spite of him. Kotsay and BB could have handled it better but they're still there and Macha's gone. Let's turn the page.

by southofcruiseamerica on Oct 22, 2006 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm interested in this now only
because of how it may illuminate the choice of the next manager

by OaklandSi on Oct 22, 2006 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

the players run the clubhouse
the manager runs the field, the lineup, and the pitching. this is a normal way for lots of baseball clubs to go.

It could be that the best way to play the situation in Macha's perception) was to be the seperate manager, since he had veteran leadership in Chavez, Kendall, Kotsay, Zito and Thomas, he let them run the clubhouse.

there is more than one way to be an effective manager.

by connie mack on Oct 22, 2006 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Okay, he lost the dugout
I never claimed there that he wasn't effective; just  pointing out that you rarely hear that many players going on the record bashing the guy before he had a chance to fill out his COBRA forms.

This soap opera stuff is very un-A's like, which in the big picture view is a good thing as opposed to Girardi vs. Loria, Bowa vs. all of Philly, Little vs. the Sons of Sam Horn (hello, Embree was his other option), Baker vs. Sosa/Bartman/fast tracked pitchers, Showalter vs. the ghost of Abner Doubleday, Guillen vs. humiliating call-ups in public, Alou vs. Metamucil, Torre vs. the scales of his bank account, Wally Backman vs. a bench warrant, Tim Johnson vs. the Gulf of Tonkin, Bobby Cox vs. Xanax or Piniella vs. Nurse Ratchet, Chief and a half a dozen orderlies.

The standard was set with Howe, who was hired by one RSA.

by southofcruiseamerica on Oct 23, 2006 6:24 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The A's denied him permission
to manage the Allstar tour to Japan. Apparently he's still need to be manager in order to do so.

by OaklandSi on Oct 22, 2006 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks -
I didn't hear that but imagined it would be slightly awkward.

by southofcruiseamerica on Oct 22, 2006 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Macha comes off much better in that article
of course, but one thing still bothers me.

Macha has repeated a couple of times that he "had an open door" to his office.  And he pointed out that Kielty and Payton and Bradley came and talked with him, and if Kotsay or whoever had a problem, he would have spoken to them, too.

Especially with a position-player (not a pitcher, who has a pitching coach as an intermediary), I think it's important for a manager to seek out players to explain big decisions (such as about playing time).  Macha says,

"I will reiterate, my office was open all the time. If Kotsay was really disturbed by that comment, he could have come in there and said so. As a matter of fact, in September, Kotsay did come in my office and asked me why he wasn't playing against left-handed pitching. And I gave him the answer. I said Kielty was hot against lefties, and we're trying to give your back a rest so we have you available for the playoffs."

I don't know about the timing, but Macha might well have been better off to go to Kotsay and explain this himself, rather than waiting for Kotsay to come to him.

The door is open for the manager, too.  Get out into the clubhouse and go tell the players what's up, even if they're not coming to ask you.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Oct 22, 2006 11:28 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I had a major department head
say very sincerely, "my door is always open".   Well, it was but she was never inside.
rip 2006, it was nice while it lasted.

by ak_A on Oct 22, 2006 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You should tell Billy Beane
He can do his next interview in there.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Oct 22, 2006 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

One question
Is it true that Macha said he never talked to Frank Thomas because he had nothing to teach him? (And if it IS true, how stupid a thing to say - that he'd only have a reason to talk to someone if he had something to teach him?)

If so, it doesn't surprise me that Macha would say he had an open-door policy and never sought someone out to discuss an issue, waiting instead for them to come to him and acting like there wasn't a problem if they didn't.

It needs to go both ways.

Bottom of the 9th - Baseball photojournalism by James Venes

by Flashfire on Oct 22, 2006 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

that was the quote that really stood out to me
That's a pretty weak rationalization for why the relationships should have worked and players should have felt they had good communication with him.  What if a father had a poor relationship with his son and then says, "well, the kid knows where my bedroom is, he could have come talked to me any time."
"Don't be an ass!" --Bill King

by batgirl on Oct 23, 2006 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why is the focus always
on the fact that Beane brought him back and why did he did so if he didn't like him.  Yet no one seems to ask why Macha came back when he knew full well how Beane is a dictator and would expect him to follow is lead.  

Let's face it, Beane wants someone who will follow his orders.  Most bosses do.  You can say that Beane should be politer and more respectful.  All that may be true.  But the boss always sets the rules.  The boss always dictates the business/work philosophies of those under him.  It's the duty of anyone under him whether a manager or an lowly employee/player to follow them.  If they don't like it, quit.  

If they feel like bashing the leadership on the way out, so be it, fail to take the high road.  BUT, it's always they're option, and Macha knew what he was getting into, so I don't feel sorry for him and now that he's bashing back (even though it was in retaliation) he's no better than Beane or the players.

by DMOAS on Oct 22, 2006 11:34 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Doesn't Macha have a right to defend
his reputation? The players, with exceptions, made Macha out to be this unfeeling, cruel ogre. Doesn't Macha have the right to maybe want to work as a MLB manager again sometime in the future?

Beane, and the players should have acted like professionals and just STFU.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 22, 2006 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not defending the way the players
acted.  What they did was bullshit and very unprofessional.  

But Beane handled it just fine.  He took the blame and said the problem was between he and Macha.  Beane didn't bad mouth Macha on the way out.  

Macha, by taking pot shots, yes, he was unprofessional in his is rebuttal.  He could have taken a high road by either not discussing it or handling it as an adult in discussing the situation.  For instance, he could have said about Kotsay, "My boss told me to platoon Kotsay & Kielty.  I did so.  I tried to explain that to Kotsay and he wasn't happy about it.  But if he's unhappy about it, those complaints are about upper management, not me."  

I have nothing against Macha defending himself.  I just think it needs to be done with a certain element of tact and professionalism.  I'd also like him to be fair with the situation and openly take the criticism that his actions warrant.

by DMOAS on Oct 22, 2006 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Macha initially didn't discuss it.
Why should he take the high road when the players won't? When taking the high road makes him seem incompetant, thus jeopadising future managerial opportunities?

Why didn't Beane just tell the players to just STFU? The nasty manager is gone, that's it. And "total fabrications"? Is he saying that the decision to start Harden wasn't his?

As for the comments about Kotsay and Kielty, to me, there really is not much difference between what Macha said, and what you wish he said.

Macha definitely should openly take the criticism that his actions warrant. As should the players. As should Billy Beane.

On Sunday, Minaya ticked off a list of candidates to join the rotation, and for once this season, none of them was Jose Lima.

by rfloh on Oct 22, 2006 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The whole situation could have been
handled a lot better.  I don't necessarily agree with how Beane & the players handled it.  

Stictly focusing on Macha, you ask why he should take the high road?  How about the for the sake of taking the high road.  It's a mark of noblity to stand in the face of criticism and vicious attacks (which I'm neither saying he did or did not recieve) and take a moral stand.  It's just as bad to have people talk shit about you as it is to talk shit back.  Yes, he has a right to defend himself.  There's nothing wrong with that.  What is wrong is using preceived attacks as cause of retaliation.

by DMOAS on Oct 22, 2006 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why are the players being viewed so negatively?
They waited until the guy was gone to say anything about him, keeping the matter out of the press seemingly for months.

They avoided public battles with him, something that couldn't be said for the Yankees or Blue Jays.

They managed to get past his abrasiveness and non-decision-making, even getting themselves to the ALCS, seemingly without a manager in place.

If anything, the players behaved impeccably. And if Macha's stupidity cost them games, I'd expect they have every right to explain that, especially after he was fired for the same stupidity.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why are they viewed so negatively?
Because they spoke up.  If you can shut up for several months, you can continue to do so.  Beane took the heat, handled it professoinally by saying they simply didn't work well together.  He never blamed Macha for their failings. He never said he failed.  If the players say nothing, we can all leave things as is and move on.  Everyone keeps their dignity, no one looks like an ass.  Macha supports can say Beane was too controlling, Macha haters can say he did a poor job managing.  That would be the end of it.  But instead they spoke up and kicked the man while he was down.  

Now I'm not defending Macha at all.  He knew what he was getting into when he re-signed.  He walks away with 2 million for doing nothing.  He'll get no sympathy from me.  

I'm justing saying that I find it difficult to support anyone over this mess because now not only do we have a whole lot of missing pieces to the story, but we've been given a lot of pieces that make this story uglier than it was and needed to be.

by DMOAS on Oct 22, 2006 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

we don't know what REALLY went on
behind closed doors. it's not fair to start putting blame on people on who's right or wrong in this situation.

by gotgreen on Oct 22, 2006 12:27 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

interesting article
in the Boston globe on the Macha-Beane stand-off.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2006/10/22/shortchanged_by_moneyball/

"After Macha was fired, and surely before, some A's players did the old Pete Carroll sidestep, up the back stairs to management."

by oak1 on Oct 22, 2006 1:09 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The Pete Carroll Side Step?
Is that the one where he sidesteps the announcer while lifting a national championship trophy?

Does anyone get that vague reference - was that referencing his time in New England? That just seemed weird and out of place.

by SD Erik on Oct 23, 2006 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

everyone hated him in New England
The guy can't lose these days but times were rough for him in NE.
"A's Brand Baseball: The worst best baseball you've ever seen!" -Chavvy

by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 23, 2006 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

players quotes
was probably to curry favor with the front
office. Kendall wants an extension, Kotsay
probably is trying to cover up for a below
average season with the bat, Thomas wants
a good pay-day.

Melhuse probably was one of those who did
have a legitimate grouse against Macha.

The fact is Macha wasnt bad -- this season
was probably his best as manager -- but he
wasnt good enough for the A's and didnt buy
fully into the front office philosophy. That's
what got him fired. But he should have been
given a little more space after he was let go.

by oak1 on Oct 22, 2006 1:17 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Macha
Macha is a terrible leader.  He didn't get any offers after last season.  He won't get any offers this offseason.  And he won't get any offers next offseason.

He's a solid "bench" coach.  Always was.  Always will be.

COME ON, OAKLAND, COME ON!

by Colorado Fan on Oct 22, 2006 1:51 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Byline--Shea not Slusser
Interesting, I thought.  Maybe Macha considers Slusser to be a Beane spokesperson, and figureed she wouldn't give him a fair writeup.  Or maybe Slusser wanted to avoid writing that story so she could remain a favored  scribe amongst Oakland higher-ups.  
"WTF is wrong with you people TASTELESS COMMENTS. I'm disgusted. Mocking a 10 year old's horrible painful death." --eshock

by rubin sierra on Oct 22, 2006 2:03 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Kotsay Looks Bad
Kotsay looks bad on this I believe. I always liked him, but I like him less now and wouldn't mind if he was traded away.

by Herm4430 on Oct 22, 2006 3:50 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I think he look sgreat.
He hasn't (from what I can see) bitched about being benched against lefties. He's bitched about suddenly being tossed i against them during the playoffs, with a perfectly good leftie killer on the bench.

Seems like Beane has the same beef. And that's why Macha is gone.

To turn on Kotsay now, simply for letting you know that all was not as happy as it seemed in the clubhouse, and that's why Macha was let go, to me is just ridiculous.

The words 'clubhouse cancer' and Mark Kotsay have never gone hand in hand previously - in fact, quite the opposite. To peg him as anything less than an honest guy right now is simply misplaced sympathy for an ex-manager whom none of us liked or respected, who was noticeable only when he didn't screw up a situation, and who has a big fat bank of cash to play with now that he's been sent on his merry way.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No aluminum pole in the A's clubhouse
A couple of material corrections.  

"He hasn't (from what I can see) bitched about being benched against lefties."   Not correct - he bitched five days before the start of the playoffs about the Kielty platoon. Said he should not be in a platoon situation and said he confronted Macha about it. Took all of this to the press.  The final week of the season is not the time to be complaining about playing time.  At best, it's being disruptive.

"He's bitched about suddenly being tossed i against them during the playoffs, with a perfectly good leftie killer on the bench."  Wrong again - that was Haren's beef after the Macha firing.  After Macha's firing, Kotsay noted cryptically that Macha disrespected him.

If it wasn't clear before, it should be now - the firing was indeed Billy's move.  But the players' Airing of Grievances which ensued was just totally lame and self-serving. To condone this type of behavior is absurd, especially if you are concerned about precedents.  If fans think it is okay for professional athletes to trash the boss over what amounts to more playing time, it wil be like Festivus every day in the A's clubhouse and Susan Slusser's will need a lot more help covering the A's beat.  No thanks.

"We owe it all to one man. And we are all extraneous. 'Billy' has denuded us of ego". Liar's Poker

by Sashulia on Oct 22, 2006 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm betting on FT in the Feats of Strength
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Oct 22, 2006 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol
"We are a complete freak show." -- Billy Beane

by day-to-day on Oct 22, 2006 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You don't think...
..that keeping silent about all this until the very end doesn't display that the A's players are far from Festivus?

Like I said before, most teams don't hold back until the post-firing to air their greivances. I think the boys showed absolute professionalism throughout.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

professionalism =
If they would have said nothing period.  It's understandable because some of them are young guys but there is no way they were "professional" with the comments about Macha.

Why doesn't Kotsay have a quote now that Macha has spoken?  Because he probably feels like a fool.

"A's Brand Baseball: The worst best baseball you've ever seen!" -Chavvy

by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 23, 2006 7:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep
hopefully he now recognizes that ranting about Macha (before, during or after he was been shot) reflects worse his character than Macha's.  In fairness to Kotsay, he could gain a ton of credibility back if he came clean with an apology and some explanation for his unprofessional tack (heat of the moment etc).  
"We owe it all to one man. And we are all extraneous. 'Billy' has denuded us of ego". Liar's Poker

by Sashulia on Oct 23, 2006 7:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

he definitely could
I understand that these guys are human and an apology would show some real class.  The craziest thing about all of this debate is that it has little to do with Macha being fired and EVERYTHING to do with how he has been treated after the firing.  No amount of money should be a "tradeoff" for allowing guys to rip your character.
"A's Brand Baseball: The worst best baseball you've ever seen!" -Chavvy

by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 23, 2006 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Apologize for what?
For telling us that he and Macha didn't get along? For pointing out why it's a good thing that the boss let him go?

Give it a rest - Macha wouldn't piss on these guys if they were on fire - before or after the firing.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 23, 2006 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Give what a rest?
Kotsay acted like a child.  He could have been an adult about everything.  What did Macha do (in your opinion) to be treated like crap after he left town?  I think he must have done something to you on a personal level for you to defend everyone but him in this situation.  

The guy was part of a team that had HUGE success this year so I don't see why he should be kicked around.  His 2 mil may help him financially but it sure doesn't help him feel any better about the way he has been treated.

"A's Brand Baseball: The worst best baseball you've ever seen!" -Chavvy

by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 23, 2006 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's a big boy, he can take the hurt.
Antonio Perez was also part of a great team this year. Should we sign him to a five-year deal?

It isn't about what Macha did after he was fired. It's about what he did TO GET FIRED.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 23, 2006 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

actually it's not
about what he did to get fired.  Maybe that clearly explains our difference of opinion.  I believe that it was fine to fire him and I will concede the point about him being too tough of a guy or just say he did a crappy job of managing.  With that concession I still think he should have been treated better AFTER the firing.
"A's Brand Baseball: The worst best baseball you've ever seen!" -Chavvy

by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 23, 2006 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And yet..
..I'm sure you'd be happy to mock T-Long or Jeremy Giambi or Jason Giambi or Canseco.

I do get it - 10 on one is an unfair fight by anyone's counting, but I honestly think that it's us (and the media) who are reading this as an actual fight.

Call me when Kotsay pulls a Sheffield and we'll talk.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 23, 2006 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"I think he looks great"
Why would you say that?  
"A's Brand Baseball: The worst best baseball you've ever seen!" -Chavvy

by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 23, 2006 7:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because he does.
He kept his mouth shut all season long. He waited until the post-mortem before explaining his beefs.

I take no issue with that. I'd do the same thing.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 23, 2006 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why isn't he talking now?
I would hope that no one would purposely ruin another person's reputation.  This thing stinks to high heaven yet you keep acting like something wonderful happened here.  I just don't get it...
"A's Brand Baseball: The worst best baseball you've ever seen!" -Chavvy

by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 23, 2006 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You seriously don't get it?
Okay then, I'll make it real easy for you.

Why isn't he talking now? Because he's said his piece, he told you the situation, and to continue talking about it now would be senseless. It would, at that point, be pointless sniping, as opposed to clarification.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 23, 2006 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't believe that
Do you think there is a slight chance that these players may not be as callous as they were the day the reporters entered their faces and now they feel bad?  I'm not claiming to be 100% correct but I believe that could be a possibility... and I would think that you might agree with that statement only.
"A's Brand Baseball: The worst best baseball you've ever seen!" -Chavvy

by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 23, 2006 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Our major malfunction...
...is that you see what they said as callous.

I see it as clarifying.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 23, 2006 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This really is getting into Bonds territory...
all this controversy is not what the A's need right now.
Let's GO OAKLAND!!!

by OaktownRajah on Oct 22, 2006 8:00 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

it's not our thing, is it?
I wish this whole tacky episode would just blow over as fast as possible, but I suppose it needs to be addressed.

Maybe all the negative press will encourage Beane to land an off-season acquisition that'll change the subject.

by kvn on Oct 22, 2006 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, it probably will.
However, this episode just brings to the fore again the fact that Billy is a complete asshole.  I'm just glad he's not my boss.  If this is the new, mellowed out Billy, I shudder to think of how he was 5 years ago.

<brrrrrrrr.....>

I always enjoyed that the clubhouse catfights took place somewhere else.  It sucks to see your guys bicker through the media.

by darjeeling on Oct 22, 2006 8:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

At the junior high level,
when there's a drama or "crisis," the conventional wisdom is that a weekend allows everything to blow over.

Adults may not operate on "junior high" time, but I think the same principle applies: Given 5 months away and the promise of a new season, I don't foresee any carryover come March, 2007. Time is a wonderful healer.

I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree completely.
If anything, we can be glad that this kind of conduct is happening now instead of in March or April.  That would be a real cause for concern.  This drama, however, means nothing except for how I think of some of the people in the Athletics orginization.

by darjeeling on Oct 22, 2006 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh, no, there should be a diary
posted every week on this until we get to the bottom of it.  If it takes a year or two, so be it.
rip 2006, it was nice while it lasted.

by ak_A on Oct 23, 2006 6:23 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oaktoon's not here!
"No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball." -- Connie Mack

by GreenSocks on Oct 23, 2006 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bickering?
Beane made a (correct) call. The players explained why. Beane reiterated what they said. Macha said his side, and that's basically it.

The bickering is from us.

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 22, 2006 9:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I feel like I'd understand your point
if you would just post it one more time in this thread.
I like Cindi. A. She never pretends to know more than she does. B. She has unbridled enthusiasm for her "Hotties," and isn't afraid to show it. -IM4Oakgal

by Nico on Oct 22, 2006 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL!!
"We owe it all to one man. And we are all extraneous. 'Billy' has denuded us of ego". Liar's Poker

by Sashulia on Oct 22, 2006 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You'd prefer I share it with other threads?
"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 23, 2006 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Beane is holding back this team...
I don't think this team has reach their full potential.  I think they are trapped in Beane's way of playing baseball.  Like it says in the book Moneyball, the player says it doesn't matter who manages the team, the shots are called by BB.

by Green and Gold Jello Shots on Oct 23, 2006 6:46 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Overblown
Is it just me or is this whole thing being made into a bigger deal than it really is?  Ahh, the off-season, especially right now when there isn't anything else to talk about (besides the WS of course).  IMO nobody in this is made out to look that horrible and by spring training much will be forgotten or forgiven.  Lets move on.
Gas to Chicago- $23.87 A's/White Sox Tix- $28 Watching the A's whipping the Sox in July 05'- Priceless

by WiscoFan on Oct 23, 2006 7:53 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

i'm sure macha is correct
but beane has to respond by saying it's a fabrication because macha may be gone but beane still has to deal with kotsay, haren, and the rest.

this whole thing is being blown out of proportion, just like most other incidents from this year (swisher partying, kendall-lackey, bradley tired act, etc.).

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Oct 23, 2006 10:32 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Hahaha
It doesn't surprise me.  Macha probably shouldn't have come back, but hey there's only 32 of these jobs out there and they're not easy to get.  If someone's going to offer you close to a million bucks to come back and put up with the same stuff you put up with before, would you?

The one's with mud on their face are the Oakland A's and Billy Beane.  Billy's paying a guy for three years of service and only kept him around for a year.  The A's look like a joke to the rest of baseball and I'd bet that the other GMs are laughing right now.  Another problem this creates for the A's is that it limits us to what managers we can go after.  The myths about Beane ruling with an iron first are seemingly coming to the forefront if they already weren't, and you can bet that it'll be tough to get a good manager to come in and put up with an arrogant GM sitting at his desk conducting an interview.  

Let's put 'em in a steal cage - -

Beane vs. Macha!

My money is on Macha...by the way, I'm glad Macha is gone, but I fear that the manager doesn't make a difference...at least in Oakland.

by RunRickeyRun on Oct 23, 2006 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We already have three great managers...
..to choose from.

They're called:

Geren
Washington
Lachemann

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 23, 2006 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

yikes!
'Oz, your interpretation of "great" leaves much to be desired. Nevertheless, i happen to still believe the A's would fair much better with a Bowa type manager, so to each it's own.
"The Matt Watson/Chiba Lotte Marines Fan Club"-Through Oct 1st: GMS:68,AVG:.271,OBP:.362,SLG:.419, doubles:12, homers:5, RBI:20

by bigelephant on Oct 23, 2006 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The difference between a great manager..
...and a good manager, is about $40m in salary cap, 5 one-run games swinging the right way, and a healthy dose of east coast sporting media bias.

There's great managers all over the league, running shitty teams that would be far shittier if not for the bossman.

And there's really ordinary managers all over the league that are called 'great' because a guy named Pujols gets drafted by their boss.

Macha blew as a manager. He was baseline average, at best. Any of the three mentioned above will be better than he, and if the one picked is named Washington, I tend to think he could be one of the greats.

But hey, opinions being like assholes and all...

"It's time to blow this team up." - Oaktoon, July 2006

by Ozzz on Oct 23, 2006 8:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

can't disagree with any of that
"The Matt Watson/Chiba Lotte Marines Fan Club"-Through Oct 1st: GMS:68,AVG:.271,OBP:.362,SLG:.419, doubles:12, homers:5, RBI:20

by bigelephant on Oct 24, 2006 5:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not so sure, man...
The A's look like a joke to the rest of baseball and I'd bet that the other GMs are laughing right now.  Another problem this creates for the A's is that it limits us to what managers we can go after.

Regardless of this brouhaha, at the end of the day, the A's ARE coming off of a playoff run -- there's 26 teams that shouldn't really laugh. And while there's plenty of GMs that run an environment better suited to a manager, Billy Beane's team had the lowest payroll of any ALCS competitor.

There's always going to be managers who want a ring and are willing to take a year or two of shit in order to get that.

And it certainly cuts out plenty of managers, having a guy like Beane around, but do we really want a lot of those guys? A number of them would be experienced managers -- the Pinellas, the La Russas, etc -- that all would garner significant money in their contracts.

Getting inexperienced guys is far more cost-effective and these guys are very unlikely to turn down a major league job, even if it is for Billy Beane.

"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."

by Kyli on Oct 23, 2006 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And by 'ALCS' I meant Championship Series
in either League. It's hard for me to acknowledge the NL sometimes.
"This must be heaven," he says.
"No. It's Oakland."

by Kyli on Oct 23, 2006 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know
I heard he made Art Howe say "uncle" one time... and it was in front of everyone.
"A's Brand Baseball: The worst best baseball you've ever seen!" -Chavvy

by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 23, 2006 1:24 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yes, but
it was only because DePo double-dog dared him to.
My record at A's games this year -- regular season: 13-8 / postseason: 1-1

by peanut gallery on Oct 23, 2006 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

not to be a prick
but I SWEAR it was only after the triple-dog dare!  I heard it from a reliable source that used to smoke pot with Little G.
"A's Brand Baseball: The worst best baseball you've ever seen!" -Chavvy

by ohtobe21likehuston on Oct 23, 2006 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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