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Will Carroll on Frank Thomas's health

I e-mailed Will Carroll of Baseball Prospectus to see if I couldn't get more precise analysis of Thomas's condition than I'd seen so far. Will has said elsewhere that he liked the Thomas pickup for the price, but he is more pessimistic about Thomas' prognosis than I would have hoped. Here is the exchange:

Star-divide

Will,

I read absolutely everything about the A's, and so far I seem to see a near unanimity of opinion that Frank Thomas can be expected to play a very limited number of games for the A's in 2006. Just to cite 3 examples from among the brighter set:

Joe Sheehan: "I just don't think he's going to be healthy enough to come to the plate more than 300 times, and a figure closer to 200 is likely."

Rob Neyer: "It does seem unlikely, though, that Thomas actually will play more than 50 or 60 games."

Will Carroll (on BP Radio): "I think 300 [at-bats] is about as much as you can hope for."

What I haven't seen from even one of the scores of opinions I've scanned on the topic is the reasoning behind these assessments. "I just don't think," "It does seem unlikely," and "I think" are not arguments. It sounds as though all of you are doing some really basic back-of-the-envelope guestimating: "Frank played a lot in 2003, very little in 2004-5, he seems to be rather better now but given age and the past couple years why don't we split the difference and call it 200-300 ABs."

That's a perfectly normal approach, but can't we do better than that? Most specifically, can't YOU do better than that? What I'd like is an assessment that takes into account Thomas's specific condition. Is his left foot problem a chronic one, rather like Barry Bonds' knees, where you'd expect him to have to take 3 days off per week to rest (although as a DH it's basically his JOB to rest all but a few minutes per game, so I don't see how that helps)? Or is it an acute either/or thing: Either the weakened bone breaks, and he's out from that point forward (like most of last year), or it doesn't break, and there's no particular reason he doesn't get in 600 PAs.

What I don't understand (please enlighten me!) is why a 600 PA season seems to be considered simply out of the question under any circumstances. I understand why that should be the case for Bonds, given the nature of his injuries, but I don't understand why Thomas, if his bone doesn't snap, crackle, or pop (and shouldn't he have a fighting chance at that outcome?), shouldn't have a shot at a more or less full season.

I'll post your response for the benefit of the eager eyes of Athletics Nation unless you specify otherwise.

Thanks

Will's prompt reply:

"I'll have a TON on this in the upcoming A's THR. I hate to be a tease, but there is reasoning behind it. Here's something  you can run -- 'Bones heal, except when they don't. Thomas' foot/ankle didn't hold up under a normal rehab, the load placed on a DH, and really, nothing's changed. Absent new information, there's no reason to change our expectation from last year.'"

THR is the Team Health Reports series he runs each spring, one on each team, strung out from February to the season's beginning. So we'll have to wait a bit for the promised "TON" of info. Here's what he wrote about Thomas last year's White Sox THR:

"Thomas' work at rehabbing his ankle from off-season surgery is counteracted by a low pain tolerance, but mid-May looks most likely barring additional setbacks. He was on crutches for seven months, and somehow still had lost 15 pounds upon his arrival to camp. He'll DH exclusively to protect the foot. When healthy, he's still a dangerous hitter."

(Right above his 2005 paragraph on Thomas was a very gloomy assessment of Jermaine Dye's chances of staying healthy, but -- freed from the weight of carrying around all those A's dollars -- Dye finally put in a healthy year.)

Notice there's a bit of an "out" clause in Will's e-mail: "absent new information." The A's certainly have newer medical information than Will has access to, so let's hope that Thomas's saying his ankle is now 90% (vs. "70%" when he came back last year) is an indicator that things are materially different this time around. I still don't see why we shouldn't expect Thomas to play pretty much every day as long as the bone holds up, with the key question being whether the bone can actually hold up. Time will tell.

0 recs  |  Comment 39 comments

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I'm cheering for them
Lets go bones
hold up <clap> clap>

by NYC on Jan 31, 2006 9:23 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for getting
the email out and the reply.  Looking forward to his THR.
Copernicus felt the same way about the geocentric crew.

by salb918 on Jan 31, 2006 9:24 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

I don't like the assumption of his pain tolerance,
maybe it was hurting more than he said, and he still played on it, that would make his pain tolerance higher wouldn't it.  Noone but Frank, could have known how much pain he was in.

by theblackpearl on Jan 31, 2006 9:33 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Smileys
But they have those charts with the different faces and you have to point out which one reflects your pain level.  Or there's that arbitrary 1-10 system which doesn't mean much unless you have experienced the most pain possible.  I don't see what could possibly be more scientific or thorough than those systems.
Green eyes come from yellow flecks of fatty pigment on a dark background. Some men think a green-eyed woman is exotic. The truth is she's got fat eyes.

by Furious George on Jan 31, 2006 9:42 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

TE Lawrence & G Gordon Liddy
"The trick is -- not minding."
"They are in very, very small pieces, but we are determined to put them back together." @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 31, 2006 9:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe they employ Bill Clinton?
They would need someone like Bill to calibrate their system and do truly scientific comparative painology--someone capable of feeling another's pain.

by Faust on Jan 31, 2006 9:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The thing that scares me . . .
is I'm not sure why the bone keeps breaking or why it broke in the first place.  Is he tweaking it during his swing, was he just too heavy, etc.  Maybe I'm wrong, but it's not like his foot got hit or he hit the base wrong.  So why did it initially break?

I'm not a othropedic specialist by any means, but I've heard that bones do not break in the same spot, but that surounding areas are weakened by the healing process, so maybe that's why it broke again last year.  And if he is 100% healed then it won't have the same propensity to break "as easily".

"Z did what Z does," said Kendall. "He makes people look bad."

by rcb on Jan 31, 2006 10:00 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

bone breaking
This is just a guess, but I'd have to say the reason his foot has been failing him is because he is placing too much weight on it.  I.e. Big Frank just weighs too darn much for his foot to support his body weight.  This is just a total guess but Mark McGwire suffered from basically the same problem late in his career, his lower body (knees and feet) couldn't support all the weight he had added to his upper body.  My understanding is McGwire is lighter now than when he was playing.

by skwid on Jan 31, 2006 10:42 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

And that's what scares me
If it's merely a matter of too much stress on the bone due to excessive mass, then why aren't more 6'5" 270+ guys snapping their navicular (sp?)?  This lends me to think it's a predisposed condition (possibly due to his age) that Thomas just has weak feet bones, man I sure hope not!  I'd rest a little better if the initial break was caused by a tweak or outside impact, rather than just normal activity (swinging or running) by a heavy man.
"Z did what Z does," said Kendall. "He makes people look bad."

by rcb on Jan 31, 2006 11:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Lets just sit him
And bring him out during the playoffs, maybe at game 5.
"If you throw at someone's head, it's very dangerous, because in the head is the brain." -- Pudge Rodriguez

by niallmack on Jan 31, 2006 10:12 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

The problem with that approach ...
... is that if we sit him too much, he'll end up with a fractured ass.
"They are in very, very small pieces, but we are determined to put them back together." @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 31, 2006 10:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, I see.
So it's not that Melhuse doesn't have an ass...it's just that his is fractured. Makes sense.
"How much room do I have to cover out here?" -- Kotsay

by Sharon on Jan 31, 2006 10:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What?
Yours doesn't have a crack in it?
Copernicus felt the same way about the geocentric crew.

by salb918 on Jan 31, 2006 10:57 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

no, no, no ...
See, if you L your AO, then you have a dislocated or detached ass. You're in the wrong thread. This is the fractured-ass thread.
"They are in very, very small pieces, but we are determined to put them back together." @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 31, 2006 1:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

oh..ok.
i was actually looking for the jackass thread. how do i get there from here?

by bigelephant on Jan 31, 2006 2:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

any thread that I'M in ...
... is automatically the jackass thread!

(Alternate response: "In Soviet Union ... jackass thread looks for you!")

"They are in very, very small pieces, but we are determined to put them back together." @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 31, 2006 2:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

alternate poster re:alternate response
{a finger pointing monkeyball wearing red T with hammer and sickle and red top hat}

by bigelephant on Jan 31, 2006 4:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Percent Healthy
Here's something I've always wondered, and it's not limited to Frank Thomas or just baseball players (or even athletes really).  

When someone says that they're "90%" or "70%" healthy, what do they mean?  90% of 'what' exactly?  And how is this quantity measured?  

I suppose that '100%' means completely healthy with no nicks or scratches or flesh wounds.  I'm not sure what 0% would be - dead I suppose.  
I don't know how you could accurately place a percentage on how you feel, although I can understand why players, broadcasters, etc continue to do so.  Giving a percentage seems a tad more scientific than just saying "he isn't completely healthy today'.

Just thinking out loud.
 

Victory without pants is just embarrassing.

by JLeverenz on Jan 31, 2006 12:32 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

It seems a tad more scientific ...
but it's not. It's just simpler than thinking up adjectives to describe health. No specific percentage means anything specific.

by devo on Jan 31, 2006 12:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

well, duh
They're talking about hit points.  Frank Thomas, being a large but unarmored 2nd-level warrior has about 18 hit points. 70% health means about 10-11 hit points, which means he could survive five direct hits from fastballs doing 5 hp damage, or up to nine knuckleballs doing 2 hp damage.

This is just an approximation. To do the real thing, we'd need to know his Armor Class and Luck.

Just dropping some science on you.

by Apricot on Jan 31, 2006 2:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

it's okay
I made a conversion error going between imperial and metric hit points.

by Apricot on Jan 31, 2006 2:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Uh oh
Does that mean that when Macha sends Thomas up to pinch hit he'll actually miss the batters box by 100 miles...er, kilometers?
Bright moments!

by andeux on Jan 31, 2006 2:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No way
Frank Thomas has got to be at least level 8

by H3liCat on Feb 1, 2006 12:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Body Armor
I suppose we could put some Barry Bonds Big Bad Body Armor (TM) on his arms and legs, that should improve his armor class at least a couple of points.

Don't forget that when he's sitting on the bench in between AB's he'll be regenerating hit points. With a body like that he's got to have a high constitution.

Victory without pants is just embarrassing.

by JLeverenz on Feb 1, 2006 6:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm 73% sure
that I agree with your analysis, Jonathan. Of course, my brain is only at 86% today, so who knows?

by Nico on Jan 31, 2006 1:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

are you sure ...
... that your brain isn't at 86 proof?
"They are in very, very small pieces, but we are determined to put them back together." @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 31, 2006 1:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You know where they pull those percentages out of
(Just returning to the ass theme introduced by our simian friend.)

On the other hand, it does work, in that I think we all have a rough sense of what's meant, and that's all anyone is shooting for here, not "science." 90% vis-a-vis 70% just means it's not as good as new yet but it's a whole lot better than it was before.

I think 0% in this context would be "I just broke the damn thing and I'm writhing on the ground." Not good, but still several steps better than "dead."

by Faust on Jan 31, 2006 2:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I withdraw my above explanation
Apricot's is clearly the correct one. I don't know what I was thinking.

by Faust on Jan 31, 2006 2:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

health + grit
What about when someone who's at 75% gives 110%? Does he end up giving 82.5%?
"They are in very, very small pieces, but we are determined to put them back together." @('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 31, 2006 2:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know, Monkey,
but we're about to find out, because at FanFest Loaiza made several references to how he was going to give 110% this year. I, for one, will be very disappointed if he comes out for some start and looks like he's giving 105%.

by Nico on Jan 31, 2006 7:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

let's just hope
he didn't mean 110% of ERA and WHIP
- A day without sunshine is like a day in Seattle -

by elcroata on Feb 1, 2006 7:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Does he wear a brace?
Or something on his foot to take all the pressure of the bone? I dont know much about sports medicine or rehabing, but he just needs to be able to hit and run at average speed. I'm just wondering if anyone knows more about this injury than just that its the bone in his foot.
Also I think that we should replace his bones with anamantium, or whatever metal is in wolverines bones.

by WWBBD on Feb 1, 2006 8:19 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

300 at bats as DH and playoffs contributions
are enough for this A's TEAM roster.

While I don't know Frank's health I do know the A's roster and believe using the other 300 at bats @ DH to keep the rest of the roster prepped for the playoffs is the best possible use of those other at bats.

What to do with Frank for those other 300 at bats? A bench that has a bat like Frank's has a very real effect on the games maneuvers in the 8th-9th innings.

Even when Frank isn't starting his
P R E S E N C E
makes it tough on opponents to counter A's lineups effectively.

Accentuate the positives my friends!

#$%*Throws Barry Bobblehead%$#@~~!!!

by A s Eh on Feb 1, 2006 11:13 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

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