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Sympathy for the Devil's Advocate, or Just Say Maybe

I no longer care much about drugs in baseball.

I did, once.  The Popeye physiques which produced cartoonish home run numbers in the last 10 years bother me, as they remove the context from earlier historic achievements.  I am bothered that minor leaguers, high schoolers and especially impoverished third worlders feel they must endanger their health to have a shot at the show.  

But I am also bothered by the fountains of sanctimony in which MLB, the union, the media and many fans now bathe.  Bonds and Palmeiro are scourges to be not only denied the Hall of Fame, but to be almost literally spat upon and reviled.  McGwire and Sosa, lauded as saviors of the game a few short years ago, are now criminals who should be stripped of fame and fortune, and quite possibly jailed.  But Bonds and McGwire, at least, are rare talents who in my eyes are very much deserving of the company of the others in Cooperstown.  Both of them utterly dominated the game during their primes, for years on end, and as compared to the others of their era (an era awash in performance enhancers), they earned their spots in the Hall.

But beyond this, I am now convinced that it is both impossible and in some ways not even desirable for baseball to try and force itself into cleanliness.  A few reasons:

  • Sports have included and in fact embraced cheaters and drug users for all recorded history, from ancient Olympians downing sheep testicles for the testosterone boost to Willie Mays' bottle of red juice.  Believe what you want about Saint Lance, but Diogenes found more honest men with his lantern than there were drug-free top level cyclists in the 1990s.   Baseball has been awash in drugs for decades, a truth fully known by MLB and the union, which makes Selig and Fehr cast as reformers an especially stomach turning sight.
  • The line between allowed and banned seems awfully indistinct.  All steroids were allowed for a while, then they were banned but andro was OK.  Creatine and ephedra are OK, but hurt more youngsters than steroids by a long stretch.  Uppers have been a part of MLB for so long that their presence is in fact the benchmark; if their elimination in '06 really happens we may see unparalleled late season slumps (though perhaps more Melhuse ABs).  And the list of likely clubhouse substitutes could actually have as bad or worse health effects than greenies.
  • This faded grey line will become nearly invisible in the coming years.  Already available and growing more effective daily are cognitive enhancement drugs, which allow greater focus and less nervousness...think those might help a pitcher needing to hit his spot?  These drugs have legitimate medical purposes, so is a great pitcher afflicted with ADD forced to choose between baseball and a better life?  And that's just now.  Genetic doping is very close, and offers the potential of adding traits like enhanced muscle growth, lung capacity or endurance to athletes more effectively and less detectably than the pharmaceutical counterparts.  Hitters now are getting LASIK eye surgery to enhance vision, in some cases to 20/200 acuity or better.   That's apparently OK...does it stop being OK when you reach 20/400?  Or when someone sporting their Jamie Summers bionic eye comes along who cannot be struck out?  I believe that in 10 or 20 years the current steroid mania will seem quaint, the latter day equivalent of saying "ass" on TV.
  • Drug testing is largely a charade, and not just because MLB and MLBPA really don't want a lot of positives.  We've already seen the rise in undetectable synthesized steroid offshoots, further evidence for the near universal belief that the best drug cheats always stay ahead of the testers.  Bonds is reviled, but he never tested positive...he had the misfortune of having grand jury testimony about him leaked.  The ones who get caught tend to be the ones who can't get the good stuff, or the good masking agents.  There are surely well over a hundred current baseball players who've used performance enhancers and haven't been snared through random chance or (like McGwire) poor PR skills.  But we looooove them.  It is downright perverse to speak of making examples of McGwire or Palmeiro when many dozens of their counterparts skate on through.  And it gets even more insidious when the standard becomes, as it has at the Olympic level, the appearance of guilt absent any test proof at all.
  •  And to what extent are we willing to go to be sure that our heroes are clean?  Many have noted that the new baseball testing regime won't detect HGH, which requires blood tests.  We could demand those, but that won't stop gene doping, so genetic testing would have to be next.  Is there any level of intrusiveness which goes too far?  After all, these are entertainers, not airline pilots.  
  • Test-em-all public rage notwithstanding, there are very few other occupations which not only insist on chemical purity, but which demand testing to prove it.  Most teachers aren't drug tested, nor are most doctors, stockbrokers, or garbage men, though all of those folks touch our lives with far greater impact than do baseball players.  Actors and musicians, perhaps the best analogy to athletes in societal terms, aren't drug tested.  We still watch John Cusack movies and Matthew Perry TV shows despite their widely known drug issues, with little call for their banishment.  And what kind of music halls of fame would exclude the Beatles, Jerry Garcia, or Charlie Parker?
  • Prohibition makes things worse.  From going blind on bad 1921 liquor to OD'ing on cut horse tranquilizer, the black market effects from blocking off the (actually or tacitly) authorized supply chain are often worse in health terms than the original problem.  This isn't as likely to be an issue for well-paid big leaguers as it is for high school dreamers or desperate Dominicans.  There is no doubt that if universal steroid testing banished the stuff from sports tonight there would be edge-seeking aspirants shooting the next promised miracle into their eyeballs tomorrow.   And it will kill some of them....it always does.
  • I do want the game I love to be played on an even field, with the players whose talent I appreciate able to perform without endangering themselves.  I just don't think the harsh stick of vilification is effective or desirable.  What's more, it'll be less so with each passing year.  In my mind the only solution to performance-enhancing drugs is education and role modeling in the earliest years....by parents, teachers, and coaches, not by pro athletes.   For current players, there have been ground breaking strides in positive peer pressure of late.  Players don't want to feel they have to take steroids, and that message is louder within clubhouses today than it has ever been before.  That's the ticket to lasting change.   The rest is largely self-congratulatory breast-beating to little effect by Congress, MLB, the media and, yes, the fans.  Let the stars of the recent era in the Hall if their accomplishments warrant it, for like it or not, yesterday's stars found their edge just as surely as tomorrow's will.

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Baseball, like society,
is full of hypocrisies:

Why can you be in the Hall of Fame if you spread syphillus but not if you gamble--are we judging the person or the player?

Why is it okay to steal signs but not okay to use performance enhancing drugs--how we know when cheating is all right?

I know it has something to do with why health care is a privilege but driving is a right, because it's all in the same file of mine, under "T" for "Things I really don't get."

by Nico on Jan 11, 2006 9:36 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I think baseball
is so popular largely because of the ways it mirrors society. Unfortunately it has picked up a large amount of the characteristics of society that most decent people abhor. Having gray areas and foggy lines is simply part of this (cheating the system is the American way, right?), but arguing with or crusading against these murky moral areas seems like messing with a good thing. Harsher drugs tests, good.... admitting something is very wrong with an institution I've grown to love--well I'm just not ready to do that.
"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by AinOz on Jan 11, 2006 9:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Gambling and Syphillus
You really do know the answer to this one, Nico.

From the perspective of baseball, gambling is worse than syphillus because it calls into question the integrity of the game.

More specifically, there's a history here:  1919 and the Black Sox. Baseball's modern governing structure -- embodied in the figure of the commissioner of baseball -- came about because of this scandal.  Not surprisingly, the game's rules of conduct reflect that fact.

Syphillus is serious as can be, but I don't see how it could effect the integrity of the game.

Your questions do implicitly raise an interesting point. There are really two arguments against drugs in baseball, and they're often fudged, in part because our society cannot seem to have an honest discussion about drug use: 1) (performance enhancing) drugs distort the game; 2) in Bill James's famous (and, IMHO, deeply silly) words, baseball players are heroes, that is what they do, so we must punish all drug use by them, lest it soil their function as role-models.

To me, issue #1 is a very serious one (and I thus diasagree pretty fundamentally with FreeSeatUpgrade), while issue #2 ought to be pretty irrelevant.  I think discussions of how to handle performance enhancing drugs would be greatly improved if the focus were entirely on them as a form of cheating that distorts the game, rather than as part of a larger category of behavior -- drug use -- that society stigmatizes and that, in certain forms, does not much affect on-field performance.

by GreenNGoldSooner on Jan 13, 2006 6:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, I do know the answer,
and I'm just sore because the Babe gave my mother syphillus, and her mother, and her mother before her. And when I say I'm sore, I mean that literally.

I also do happen to believe that if someone amasses over 4,000 hits and "puts the integrity of the game at risk" through gambling, they should be invited into the Hall of Fame and probably not invited to dinner parties or middle school assemblies. The Hall of Fame is about baseball achievement, not about morality or moralizing.

by Nico on Jan 13, 2006 8:26 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That's a Different Argument
The Babe's syphillus has nothing whatsoever to do with baseball.

Pete Rose's gambling, on the other hand, does.  To the extent that one evaluates his gambling in terms of moralizing (is he truly sorry? has he truly reformed?), I think you're entirely right that it's an irrelevant consideration.  But his gambling may -- or may not -- have had an actual impact on the game itself. And that does need to be weighed against his positive achievements on the field.  Now, one might well conclude that whatever negative impact his gambling had on the game, it pales in comparison with those achievements.  But that's a question of weighing relevant factors, not dismissing the gambling as irrelevant.  

All of these issues are, of course, complicated by two factors:  1) baseball's peculiarly absolutist positions on gambling (which of course flow from 1919), and 2) the deal that organized baseball made with Rose.  The second seems to me to be a huge mess, and very difficult to deal with, as it's not entirely clear what Rose thought he was agreeing to.  

But baseball's rules against gambling are known to all players, including Rose. Despite all the moralizing language, a rule is a rule, and the origins of this particular rule directly concerned the integrity of the game, not extraneous moralizing.  Now we might want to change this rule, perhaps even retroactively.  I think a very good case can be made to do so (and let in not only Rose but Joe Jackson, too). But I don't think one can simply say that 4,000 hits is such a spectacular achievement that we should give Rose a special dispensation while leaving the rule in place.  

by GreenNGoldSooner on Jan 13, 2006 10:00 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Here's the key difference
to me, G&GSooner: If you bet against your own team, as a hitter you can intentionally strike out, or as a manager you can sit your best player. But under no circumstances can you make the choice to "get 4,000 hits".

It is easy to intentionally fail or intentionally play worse than you can play, but it is not possible to "intentionally play better than you can play". In other words, Rose's ability to get 4,000 hits could not have been affected by his gambling--on baseball, or otherwise. What did he do, intentionally get a hit?

by Nico on Jan 13, 2006 5:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Possible equation
Maybe he let his wagers determine his greenie intake for the day...no action=play naked, big parlay=double dose.
Costly Seat Downgrade

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jan 13, 2006 6:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Why is it ok to criticize a man for syphilis ...
... while misspelling the name of the disease?

And Nico, my mother, too, contracted the same VD from a HOF'er: her name was Phyllis, and she caught it from Cy Young.

@('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 13, 2006 10:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

One problem is how cheating was tolerated
in MLB.

At first it seems harmless enough.
Then it spreads out beyond MLB.
Stronger drugs are sought.
Some drugs permanently mutate it's users.

Tolerance of cheating is certainly not unique to MLB.
It is very human.
It reflects weak character and poor choice.
In MLB, poor choices by individuals, groups, and finally, of society via media and government participation.

MLB failed here.

In it's "divided house" of owners, player's union, and other participants it failed to police itself.

MLB opened itself to having it's policies dictated from outside MLB, ...by congress no less.

The human malady of cheating in MLB now is left to define how much cheating will be tolerated, and how to police itself.

If MLB had policed itself to begin with,
the problem would never exist.

"A's are just a Huff away"

by A s Eh on Jan 11, 2006 10:29 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Cops can't solve human character flaws
You write: "If MLB had policed itself to begin with, the problem would never exist."

I think that's part wrong and part right.  The problem is that those on the out want in, and those in want to stay in.  That is true in every facet of life, and will remain true in baseball, Olympic sports and commodities trading regardless of public scorn or draconian regulations.  In that sense, I don't agree with your statement.   However, I do think the ultimate solution lies in self-regulation, when the advantages of staying clean as conferred by owners and peers outweigh the advantages of cheating.

Costly Seat Downgrade

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jan 11, 2006 10:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We must "police ourselves" my friend
or others will.
"A's are just a Huff away"

by A s Eh on Jan 11, 2006 11:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The problem is that enforcement costs
are too high, enforcement too selective, and 'innovative' spirit just allows for new and clever avenues for players to get an edge.  Let it all [all individual introduced chemical substances] be legal.  Let the playing field be level in that regard.  Players, when faced with the choice between shorter term gains and long-term drawbacks, will make the most appropriate decisions for themselves...and so will a team's management, to include the implications of their personnel decisions.

by LowcountryJoe on Jan 12, 2006 3:32 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I TOTALLY AGREE
Since when did people get so (gosh darn) self-righteous. Of course it's ok to be outraged, but I assumed more people at least suspected steroid use. The shock is really getting old. I cheered on McGuire and Bonds during there home run record years, and I was fairly sure they had at least dabbled in juice at some point, but that was always secondary to what I perceived as incredible patience, training, determination, and skill.

by kvn on Jan 11, 2006 11:36 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

the older u get the more crooked you get
and baseball is a very old sport....
"Baseball is like church, many attend, few understand" - Leo Durocher

by gWiLiKeRzZz on Jan 12, 2006 12:35 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

But ....
How do you know Bonds and McGuire would have dominated without illegal drugs? When you look at Bonds' career, you could make the case that he dominated only because of his (alleged) drug use.

Almost any rule draws an arbitrary line in the sand. (Why is driving 66 speeding and 64 not?) But once the rule is set, you have to pay the consequences for breaking it. That's what a rule is.

I don't think it's sactimonious to care about illegal drug use by athletes, and condemn those that break the rules -- especially the big stars. I don't want young players feeling pressured to use drugs. And I don't like seeing guys who look like puffed up cartoon characters stealing the limelight from guys who look like Bobby Crosby and Mark Ellis.

by SportySpice on Jan 12, 2006 8:25 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Perspective is the key
I loathe the person I believe Barry Bonds to be, but I have no doubt that he'd have multiple MVP awards on his mantle if he'd never touched an illicit substance.  McGwire's a bit tougher, but still easily exceeds the "dominated the league for a sustained period" standard in my mind.

It's not sanctimonious to care about drug use, but it is to elevate that sin beyond all reason or perspective.  For example, I in all seriousness worry more about the effects on my kids from the culture of conspicuous consumption so prevalent among athletes and entertainers (among others) than I do illegal drugs.  But I'm not going to preach condemnation from my high horse and say the owners should keep their money because they're more subtle about it.  Instead, I'm going to try to instill in my kids the foundation from which they can make good choices.  There's a whole lot of "protesteth too much" on the steroid issue these days.  No pro sports issue matters a fraction as much to our society as, say, health care and the ever-shrinking social safety net.  But you'd never know that to read the paper most days.

Costly Seat Downgrade

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jan 12, 2006 10:14 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

There aren't enough drugs in the world...
to make me a star player, or even get me to the Majors(or even above high school ball, for that matter). Bur if there were some drug I could take that would allow me to become a multi-millionaire who could play a kids game for a living, even at the expense of my long term health, I'm not sure I'd have the wisdom and fortitude to reject it now, much less when I was 18 or 19 years old.

It's easier to make decisions when we have no choice, and it's even easier to pass judgement on others.

"HRs by second basemen are sexy. They're rare and exotic." -Kyli

by McFood on Jan 12, 2006 8:53 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Cheating is not what concerns me about...
...steroids in baseball.  There has been cheating of one sort or another throughout baseball's history, and much of it is celebrated, or at least fondly remembered, rather than reviled.  No one talks about the spitter like it was a moral lapse.  

Yes, players who use steroids, HGH, etc. are weak.  That is, after all, the human condition.  We shouldn't be shocked and surprised.  Folks do stupid/questionable shit when they're under pressure.  This doesn't, however, mean that we should give up and not make a serious attempt at enforcement.  In fact, it means exactly the opposite.  If these drugs are not fully tested and are potentially unsafe, we owe it to the players to help them make good decisions.  We're talking about young people, including kids in high school and younger, who are under a tremendous amount of pressure to perform.  (Heck, now that I'm closer to 50 than to 30, most of the pros seem like kids to me.)  Turning a blind eye to the problem is really just inviting the players to screw up.

I'm not concerned about the "bad guy" who wants to "cheat."  My concern is the more typical young player.  He loves the game.  He wants to play more than anything else in the world.  He may be a kid in high school struggling with parental expectations, or a young man in rookie ball terrified that he'll be cut, or a rehabbing vet in AAA who fears that his career is over.  He doesn't want to cheat, he doesn't want to risk his health, he doesn't want to pay some shady doctor a bunch of money.  But he wants to play, and he knows that others are using in order to get that extra edge (regardless of whether it works).  If we look the other way and say we don't care, we make it that much harder for the player to make the decision that he really wants to make.  

I don't think MLB (and other pro sports organizations) should be testing for and enforcing against recreational drugs that do not potentially improve athletic skills/performance.  No one is going to get high because he thinks he has to in order to play ball.  I do, however, think that MLB needs to make a serious attempt at keeping players from risking their health in order to play.  This includes testing, education, and ongoing research.

"I'm a lexicon devil with a battered brain."--Darby Crash

by lexdevil on Jan 12, 2006 10:19 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Law of unintended consequences
Thanks for indulging what is essentially some hypothesis testing on the issues. (Do kids still hypo test these days?)  But I submit that historically the shady doctor's market is enhanced by testing and enforcement crackdowns, not suppressed.  Beating the system becomes a more lucrative business.

And I can't help but note the irony of testing advocated by one who sports a signature quote from a noted heroin addict, who would have claimed (wrongly, but still) that the drug enhanced his performance.

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by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jan 12, 2006 11:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hypo testing is dead.
But I do understand your argument.  Clearly, the greater the tech needed to cheat, the more profit potential for the experts.  I'm willing to grant this, because greater expertise and expense means fewer people using.  Maybe we can at least price this out of the range of the high school kids.  And even if we can never keep up w/ the vanguard of high tech biochemical enhancements, to the extent that we send the message that some people will be caught as our knowledge improves (even if others will move on the the newest, not-yet-detectable wonder drug), this may provide the added level of risk that helps a player make the decision that he really wants to make anyway.  

I think much of my take on this comes from teaching at a quirky/Lefty/aging hippie private high school after having taught public school for several years.  We've had a problem w/ kids drinking at dances.  The school wants to solve the problem, both because it doesn't want kids to be hurt, and because it's aware of its potential liability.  At the same time, we are, as an institution, more than ambivalent about being "The Man."  We want the kids control themselves, and we fear that intrusive enforcement measures like pat downs and breathlyzers will destroy the climate of trust that we strive to foster.

I think that this is unfair to the kids because when we do catch one (and we do), s/he gets punished.  Punishment for first offenses ranges from suspension to expulsion.  Colleges require that we report major disciplinary incidents.  Yet by refusing to take the measures needed to catch the kids on a consistent basis, we encourage the belief that they will not be caught.  The little bit of criminology I've studied made it very clear that certainty of punishment is a far greater deterrent than severity of punishment, so making it hard to catch the kids is really tantamount to  inviting them to screw up.

This does not mean that I really care about kids partying.  I don't think it's immoral.  I worry about the idiots who drink so much that they risk killing themselves (and I wish they'd just smoke dope instead, because the risk of acute toxicity is pretty much nil), but I'm not against experimentation or fun.  But when they're under the school's (or my) care, they need to stay clean because we cannot handle the liability.  I just think that when we make a rule that we plan to enforce in any serious way, it's unfair to send the message that we're not trying to catch violators.

"I'm a lexicon devil with a battered brain."--Darby Crash

by lexdevil on Jan 12, 2006 1:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Lexdevil
I'm afraid you dropped FreeSeatUpgrade's underview on your sig line.  Round flows aff.
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Jan 13, 2006 10:13 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't remember irony being a voting issue.
Which is not to say it's not a popular strat at the moment.  It's just that if you want the judge to vote on it, you'd better impact it that way.  As it is, noting the irony of my sig is just an ad hom that succeeds in making me look silly (not a very challenging task), without getting FreeSeatUpgrade the ballot.

My advocacy is a PIC (plan inclusive counterplan).  Stop the silly moral outrage/vilification, but continue (and even improve) testing.  I'm simply "PICing" out of the stop testing part of his advocacy.

"I'm a lexicon devil with a battered brain."--Darby Crash

by lexdevil on Jan 13, 2006 10:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

PIC -- didn't that used to be called
a "minor repair?"

As far as giving FSU the ballot is concerned...that's up to me, since it's my ballot, damnit!  I'm a dino, and I've earned the right to decide the round arbitratily and capriciously when my flow gets too full.

And this is a real long-shot, but...you're not Phil's big sister, are you?

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Jan 13, 2006 11:04 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Hello, voice from my past!
I am indeed Phil's big sis, and I'm running the debate program at CPS these days.  FreeSeatUpgrade told me he knew you (along w/ a whole bunch of other friends from the Dark Ages of debate).  The world is scary small.

As to the difference between a PIC and a Minor Repair:

A Minor Repair is a mild change to the SQuo that achieves the aff advantage.

A PIC is a change to the aff plan that is comparatively better than the aff plan alone.  It's not the aff plan plus (because then it would not be a reason to vote against the aff).  It's the aff plan minus a key component.  

So e-mail me.  Let's have lunch and wax nostalgic about our alma mater, the good old days, etc.

"I'm a lexicon devil with a battered brain."--Darby Crash

by lexdevil on Jan 13, 2006 11:26 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, holy shit
Now I'm trying to figure out who FSU is -- there's no embedded hint in the screenname there, though, at least not that I can tell.

Thanks for the policy refresher course.  I'm assuming the part that you remove from the aff plan to make the PIC competitive simultaneously makes it non-topical -- otherwise, there's no reason to vote against the resolution (at least that's how it seems to this old hypo tester, but I understand that makes me some kind of ent in today's h.s. debate world).

I would love, love to get together for lunch.  Unfortunately, I now live near Philadelphia.  I'll email you with details of the Whole Life Story later tonight.

Oh, and as long as we're freaking each other out, scroll up this thread.  lexdevil:phil as greenngoldsooner:nick.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Jan 13, 2006 11:35 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll let FSU know.
Bet he'll be blown away that you are all on AN and didn't know it.  I just e-mailed you FSU's highly classified secret identity.

And I'll explain the topical stuff in a later e-mail.  Shockingly, topical counterplans are totally normal these days.

"I'm a lexicon devil with a battered brain."--Darby Crash

by lexdevil on Jan 13, 2006 11:58 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A few more hints
This much small world shit on a pre-holiday Friday has my head spinning.  Let's add:
  • I attended your wedding
  • You attended my wedding
  • You, me and your now-wife were all colleagues and housemates for several years
  • My best friend in high school was Mike Green, debate God.
Say hi to Kati for me!
Costly Seat Downgrade

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jan 13, 2006 12:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks to the miracle of webmail,
you're a couple of minutes too late.  You have been identified, and my brain has already crashed.

The three of us probably ought to take this mashup of "This is Your Life" and "Six Degrees of Old Debatin' (and canvassing, but I wanted it to rhyme)" off-thread.  I'll send you and lexdevil the life update tonight (assuming my brain starts working properly again).

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Jan 13, 2006 12:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Dad?
Is that you?
@('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 13, 2006 12:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Damnit Son!
I told you that on the internet I'm to be addressed as "Mistress Exotique!"
Costly Seat Downgrade

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jan 13, 2006 1:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Waaaaaaait a sec ...
... you're not my father! Are you perhaps the brother of my father?
@('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 13, 2006 2:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought we were supposed to call you
"Rod Branca."
"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on Jan 13, 2006 7:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Rod Branca...that bastard?
Left a trail of unpaid newspaper and utility bills throughout the East Bay!

Funny happenstance...about three years ago Molly took a horticulture class at Merritt College.  Teacher?  Tom Branca.  No relation to the bill-skipping apparition of our acquaintance, but nephew to Ralph, ex-Dodger pitcher of 1951 Thompson home run fame.

More inside references of dubious AN interest follow by email.

Costly Seat Downgrade

by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jan 13, 2006 7:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm inside the hatch ...
... and it looks suspiciously like the hatch in South America that Sidney went down while Carl Lumbly got shot waiting above ground.
@('.')@

by monkeyball on Jan 13, 2006 7:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The Richard Hatch?
Whew, at least I know that you're a survivor...or maybe a pirate.

by LowcountryJoe on Jan 14, 2006 6:19 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Apparently I need to watch more TV
Because clearly my cultural literacy level is insufficient. Richard Hatch I grok, but none of the rest.
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by FreeSeatUpgrade on Jan 14, 2006 8:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Great post
Just let me say that I read newspaper articles for a living and this was easily the best one that I've read on this subject.

I, too, just don't get the indignation, especially from the old-guard types that are having their record pulverized. The reason is simple: they were probably cheating too and they know it. Frank Robinson used something, and anyone who denies it probably believes the Executive Branch's party line too. And don't even get me started on Ron Dibble.

I'm all for drug-testing, but do we have to have the sanctimonious (sp?) attitude with it? You test positive, you're punished. I get tired of Mark McGwire and Rafael Palmeiro, too, but I think they would be honest if they weren't so worried about the hyperbole machine that awaits their admission of wrong doing.

by FreeSanJose on Jan 12, 2006 11:02 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Well, since you bring it up in this diary...
...and anyone who denies it probably believes the Executive Branch's party line too.

...what is the party line anyway and what's to believe (or not believe) about it?

by LowcountryJoe on Jan 12, 2006 1:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent Post
I think the game should be testing for steroids and punishing users.  However, the moral indictment of users (especially of "suspected" users) is pretty silly.  I don't see the same indignation toward Babe Ruth (who corked his bat), people who illegally used spitballs, or the stars of the 60s and 70s who used greenies (Mays, Aaron...).

by Danny on Jan 12, 2006 11:48 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

If there is gonna be moral outrage...
It should land on the side of the victims of cheating not the cheaters.
I find the case of steroids analagous to cheating in school.
I am in college and I know that there are cheaters. I see them and I hear them.  They find ways to get good grades by using their cell phones in tests and by turning in papers downloaded from the web.  Sometimes they get better grades than me sometimes not, but always I find it frustrating and unfair.
  Hey, I understand fully that life is in no way meant to be fair, however, isn't that what we humans do best, mess with the natural order of things? So, to make life a little more for those who have some morals people with power have to do their best to deter overt cheating.  
I am fine with whatever happens in mlb as long as they don't roll over and give in to the fact that steriods will be used. Accept the fact, fine, but don't give in to it.
If Bonds doesn't get into the hall of fame sucks for him. Ditto for McGuire.  They already knew life wasn't fair.

by Mz K on Jan 12, 2006 1:08 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Free San Jose!!!
You read newspaper articles for a living?  How do I get your job?  

by Uncle Charlie on Jan 12, 2006 3:54 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Legalize the Spitter!
   Regardless of generation, there have been activities performed by pro players that were deemed over the top. Whether it was making the spitter illegal or sharpening the cleats before a game to induce harm while sliding into a base, there's always been a rule to bend or break. Whether it was the individual or a team such as the Giants who spied from the outfield the oppositions signals on pitches, the offenses were practiced on a multitude of levels.
   FreeSeat's excellent depiction of the baseball's hypocracies gets at the deep rooted issue of fair play in competition. Are the players performances really straight up these days or are we seeing something that is fabricated? In other words, Mark McGwire is really strong but would have he hit THAT particular homerun, if he weren't taking enhance-ments?
   Sport is ultimately entertainment. But the deep common seeds that tie us to it lie in the depths of our own efforts that many of us had growing up playing. It is that fact that we were taught to play games that were made up of rules, which distinguished one sport from the next. When we didn't have rules, we usually made them up. Thus, when we see the sanctimonious response to today's transgressions, we must remember that it may be rooted in our sense of fair play which was ingrained in us at a very early age. I disagree with the "holier than thou" accusations which commonly get brought up.
   Will the sport ever reach all of our ideals in terms of fair play? No way, but to quote Paul Hewson's words from an early U2 album, "If I can't change the world, I can change the world in me..." Hopefully, we can at least help our kids to love the game and play it the way it was meant to be played.
"I've been accused of using too many words...I suppose that's like accusing Mozart of using too many notes." Bill King

by Gerard on Jan 12, 2006 3:56 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

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