FREE DARIC BARTON #2

by blee1134 on Aug 22, 2005 8:37 PM PDT

with so many posts in the first thread some opinions get lost. Here is mine:

What people need to understand, is that there is no difference mentally for a rookie coming up now as opposed to the start of the year. If anything, it's harder for a rookie to start the year because if he struggles he has to go back 6 months since his last success. If Barton were to come up and struggle he would only have to go back 2 weeks to go "oh yeah, I was pretty good". I understand that guys up the whole season have more of a chance to play off struggles but at most that simply evens out the first thing I said.

The A's let their rookies and youngsters struggle. Swisher did. Blanton did. Haren did. Crosby did. Harden did. Mulder did. Tejada did.

I'm sure the A's trust their rookies to know that struggles are simply a part of the game. The trust their rookies to know that the A's will stick with them through thick and thin (the rare Jose Ortiz aside).

Barton SHOULD BE ON THE A'S RIGHT NOW. Why? Because he would be an upgrade over what they had now. To whoever said the thing about the A's DH's right now combining for a .800 OPS...Well, if they could, then stick with them. The problem? They CANNOT put up an OPS of .800. They haven't to date and they wont from this point.

Barton being up will help the A's in their quest for the playoffs and he'll help in the playoffs if they make it. And he'd play for the league minimum with no effect on his arbitration years. Barton not being up is stupid. End of story.

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Guess this answers the question

I just asked you on minorleagueball.com

When I was kid, I laid in my twin bed and wondered where my brother was-Mitch Hedberg 1968-2005

by gatling on Aug 22, 2005 8:53 PM PDT 0 recs

"Barton not being up is stupid."

WOW!!! with all respect blee, 4 words for you: "In Billy we trust"

I don't know if Daric is ready or not, and I don't know if this is a good idea or not, HEY he's the Player we got for one of the big 3, of course Billy wants him in the team like we do, but If Barton is not with the team right now I'm pretty sure that Billy has a reason...

by Olijerez77 on Aug 22, 2005 8:55 PM PDT 0 recs

Well "In Billy, I wonder"

With all due respect to the Beane Man, how he can not place Hatteberg on the DL with his oblique injury is an insult to my intelligence. Forget the whole Barton debate for a minute; the crux of this whole season is really based on the fact that Beane is essentially banking on Hatteberg to "regain" his form.

When head-trainer Larry Davis and the .600 OPS'ing DH both say that this injury is going to take a while to heal, that should be a huge red flag that he is not going to be productive by having a few days of rest.

The DL was never an option for Hatty TWO WEEKS ago, and apparently it isn't one now.

So I ask you and the rest of AN, what excuse, if ANY could Beane give that would explain why he is keeping Hatteberg in this season's plans?

http://www.aslegacy.blogspot.com

by Genaro on Aug 22, 2005 9:12 PM PDT 0 recs

The Hatte ...

... even if he isn't 100%, he's still extremely valuable.

I don't even want to get into this. I'm all in favor of call-ups. And if DB gets the call, he'll most definitely get the at-bats. But Billy knows when to bring someone up better than anyone in the majors.

He has personal experience. Too soon is about the worst thing one can do to a player.

Read the book.

And if you have, think about it. Yanks almost destroyed The Mick. Came up so fast. Of course 18 years old is TOO fast. But still, when the sent him to the bush league, he was so frustrated, he almost ended his career.

Barton is no fink. (Couldn't resist that.) And will probably be a part of our great future. But right now ...

give us Hatteberg. He's proven he's clutch. He's proven he's the man.

"It's easier to stay in last place than it is to stay in first." ... Bill James

by Edwinwinwin on Aug 22, 2005 10:26 PM PDT up 0 recs

I'm sorry

the book was about a different player.

A player that had some pop in his bat. A player that some idea what to do at the plate.

This hatteberg's not the same.

Again, the reason beane didn;t do anything up until now is that he had a team that was winning until 10 days ago.

the facts on the ground have changed. the team's no longer winning. Hatteberg;s no longer hitting. Kendall and Kotsay are showing no signs of coming out of protracted slumps.

The interesting thing is that the only possible explanation for beane not moving Barton up now-- as opposed to 9 days from now-- is that he may believe this team is unlikely to make the playoffs period. If he thinks they are likely to finish 4-5 games behind the Angels-- and that they can't outlast both the yankee offense and the indian schedule advantage, he may simply decide that discression is the better option.

I don't think he thinks that, but OTOH, i can't entirely rule it out. But the Billy Beane that lives and dies with this team like we do, and is one of the most competitive people we've all witnessed, cannot assess this situation and conclude that either Scott Hatteberg or Bobby Kielty-- or even adam Melhuse-- is his best option.

I think he knows who his best option is-- so now does he wait for Sept 1, or act tomorrow by either disabling Hatteberg or sending Ginter out?

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Aug 22, 2005 10:36 PM PDT up 0 recs

That's the problem Oaktoon

I think that Beane doesn't HAVE to make the move in calling up Barton but why is it so bad to make Melhuse the DH until September rolls around?

Why is it that we have to suffer right along with Hatty and watch a key cog for the past 3 years go down in flames when it doesn't have to be this way.

Hatteberg is not going to DL himself, nor would he if he could.

http://www.aslegacy.blogspot.com

by Genaro on Aug 22, 2005 11:05 PM PDT up 0 recs

"Somewhat," not "extremely"

Even though I'm definitely in the DL-Hatteberg camp, I do think that he still has somewhat of a positive effect on the lineup when he's starting: he still, even without being able to swing the bat, makes the opposing hurler throw a lot of pitches. And there is some intrinsic value to that.

But that is currently the only value that Hatteberg brings to the plate.

And that value would be entirely obviated if Hudgens would convince everybody besides Kendall and DJ to take more pitches and control their strike zones and ABs. (No, the current hitting slump is not Hudgens' fault per se; but we're seeing a lot of bad habits cropping back up.)

I'm agnostic on the Barton question; but I'm a fundamentalist zealot on the Hatteberg question.

It's tough out there, Pootie. You got drugs ... crime ... gorillas ...

by monkeyball on Aug 23, 2005 7:52 AM PDT up 0 recs

Yea

those Yanks really destroyed poor Micks career didn't they.

by oscarwdog on Aug 23, 2005 1:02 PM PDT up 0 recs

Almost ...

... it it was for Mickey's dad, they probably would've.

"It's easier to stay in last place than it is to stay in first." ... Bill James

by Edwinwinwin on Aug 23, 2005 8:45 PM PDT up 0 recs

Whoops.

Meant to say if it WASN'T for Mick's dad, his career would've ended prematurely. (You all probably know the story, I'm sure.)

Yes, The Mick did pick himself up and did have a great career.

And you don't need to preach to the choir. I can't WAIT for D. Barton to pick up a bat.

"It's easier to stay in last place than it is to stay in first." ... Bill James

by Edwinwinwin on Aug 23, 2005 8:49 PM PDT up 0 recs

re

I trust Billy Beane 100%

Does that mean he doesn't make mistakes? No, of course not.

Would the A's have made the playoffs last season if Street came up? Yeah, probably. Beane didn't bring Street up though and the A's didn't make the playoffs. I still trust Beane, but it was a very costly mistake.

http://as-future.blogspot.com/

by blee1134 on Aug 22, 2005 9:19 PM PDT 0 recs

re: Hatteberg

Hatteberg is not only not "extremely valuable", not only not "valuable" he's WORTHLESS. He is the worst every day DH in baseball. You can win with a .700 OPS from behind the plate, you can't win with a .700 from your DH.

http://as-future.blogspot.com/

by blee1134 on Aug 22, 2005 10:41 PM PDT 0 recs

Hatte's not worthless

he'd be a good pinch-hitter and spot first-basemen assuming his health is okay. But yeah, he's not a ML regular anymore. And thats fine, the guys 35 anyway.

Come ON A's!

by Alien on Aug 22, 2005 10:43 PM PDT up 0 recs

Not fair ...

... he's far too good for such harsh words.

When he's driving, he gets us there.

And he'll be driving soon.

According to Michael Lewis, if the A's had 9 Hattebergs they would score more runs than any A's team in history.

Granted, this year he's playing in pain; but that's nothing new.

Down the stretch, the final 39, he's an important cog in a well-oil machine.

So let's wait until the roster is expanded before calling up Barton. That's if Billy thinks a 19 year old phenom is ready. If you recall, Beane was a 19 year old phenom. He doesn't want this kid to be hurt, or suffer a set back. You don't run 2 year olds in the Belmont Stakes.

No question about it, Barton can drive the ball to all fields, and has a keen eye and can get on base and will probably get his share of hits. But Hatteberg is the man I trust with two outs in the bottom of the ninth when we need to stay alive; when we need to score a run.

"It's easier to stay in last place than it is to stay in first." ... Bill James

by Edwinwinwin on Aug 22, 2005 10:52 PM PDT up 0 recs

That was then...

and this is now.

Hatteberg collapsed down the stretch last year.

He's been subpar this year, and horrendous the past couple of weeks.

The Michael lewis quote-- which i think came from beane or someone in the A's front office-- no longer applies.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Aug 22, 2005 10:55 PM PDT up 0 recs

Yes and no.....

I agree with the numbers assesment. However, Hatte is potentially extremely valuable to the organization. In my perfect world, we see him coaching in Midland or Vancouver next year. He is not the hitter of old, but he still has the head. I would love to see some of our youngsters benefit from the experience he has amassed. Add to the mix that he was a catcher, someone who has to call games and understand several pitches and situations ahead, and you have the makings of a great coach. He has made a living frustrating pitchers, even ones he can't hit. He could continue to contribute to the success of the A's. I hope he does.
Should he be the everyday DH instead of a late inning pinch hitter? Will he return to the form of 2002? Probably not in both cases. I just hope we don't loose him as an assett to the organization.

Barry and the "Intangibles"

by Duke of left field on Aug 22, 2005 11:18 PM PDT up 0 recs

A sweet dilemma.

Upon reading Blez's interview ...

http://www.athleticsnation.com/story/2005/6/8/222713/1039

and studying Barton's stats ...

and even though he's on a 2007 timetable and I would like to see him up here in the bigs for a few weeks this year (it would be sweet) ...

where do we put him?

He plays first and so does DJ ...

uh oh ...

"It's easier to stay in last place than it is to stay in first." ... Bill James

by Edwinwinwin on Aug 22, 2005 10:42 PM PDT 0 recs

DH

we do play in the a.l.

Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no! -- Ken Macha

by burnone on Aug 23, 2005 10:34 AM PDT up 0 recs

re

9 PAST Hatteberg's that get on base 37.5% with a .430 SLG (2002 numbers) would be the highest scoring team in baseball

9 CURRENT Hattebergs would get on base 34% of the time with a pathetic .355 SLG and be the lowest scoring team in baseball.

Hatteberg was bad this year before he got hurt and now he's terrible hurt. I don't think he's going to get any better playing every day either. He's worthless to the A's unless it's pinch hitting late in games once a week.

His OPS is now .699 and going the wrong way.

Hatteberg used to be a nice player. Now he's bringing down the team.

http://as-future.blogspot.com/

by blee1134 on Aug 22, 2005 11:02 PM PDT 0 recs

all about the future

If you are right about how good he is be patient

Why don't they just lick their fingers?

by novaoakland on Aug 22, 2005 11:09 PM PDT 0 recs

Granted.

A good case can be made that Scottie is have a sub-par season thus far.

Compared to his previous OPA's .807 ('02), .725 ('03), .787 ('04) and (presently) .700 (a gave him the benefit of a percentage point).

He's healing. He's resting. He's rehabbing. (Or, in his case, reHatting.)

I admire (and value) his instincts and eye, and his swing (though slightly encumbered) is sweet as ever.

I know opposing pitchers don't think of "number" or "stat" when he's at bat. Because he can STILL do a lot of damage.

Okay, I suppose I'm thoroughly guilty of being a loyal fan (and like a true A's elephant, I don't soon forget), but yet I believe (and so does Beane and Macha and mostly everybody else in that clubhouse) Scott Hatteberg is our Roy Hobbs and we'd be darn foolish to discount him with 39 games to go.

Figures don't lie but liars can figure. Even though his OPA is a hundred points below 2002's, not to mention a hundred or so below Chavvy's .808. And a good deal below Payton's (luscious) .842. Do you think he's LESS clutch?

I know, clutch is a difficult "stat." You don't find it in a computer as easily as you find it in one's heart.

And Hatte has HEART.

End of story. But just the beginning of what I hope turns out to be one hell of an exciting pennant race.

And somehow, somewhere, Hatteberg will make a difference.

"It's easier to stay in last place than it is to stay in first." ... Bill James

by Edwinwinwin on Aug 23, 2005 12:21 AM PDT 0 recs

huh??

"a case can be made"-- I think the judge and jury left the building a long time ago;

Roy Hobbs? Are you serious? Hatty's not hitting as well as Calvin and Hobbes;

"Clutch"?? Sure would have liked to seen a few basehits instead of all those DP balls and weak fly balls the last few weeks in clutch situations;

He can't do a lot of damage. 5 homers all year? No real power now for more than a full season. Sub 700 OPS since last September.

He's already made a difference-- and in the wrong way. Put a league average DH in there and the A's are in much better shape in the pennant race and WC right now.

Yes, he's less clutch. because he's less good.

He ought to be retired right now. He'll have plenty of time to coach then.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Aug 23, 2005 2:19 AM PDT up 0 recs

Haha.

Funny post.

Calvin and Hobbs?

A riot.

But he who laughs lasts laughs best.

Now take your eye out of the rear mirror and keep it on the road.

When Hatte gets in that batter's box, he's driving us to a penant.

Sure, his numbers say one thing, but his heart and determination and desire to win speaks far louder.

He'll probably be doing more pinching than DHing, but in any capacity, he will win some games.

"It's easier to stay in last place than it is to stay in first." ... Bill James

by Edwinwinwin on Aug 23, 2005 10:10 AM PDT up 0 recs

Another point that hasn't been raised

I'm somewhat surprised that no one has brought this up yet, but is it possible that the A's want to make Barton their long-term DH to keep his cost down. Face it, if this kid's bat is as good as we think it might be, he's going to cost a fortune in arbitration and another ten fortunes to re-sign once he hits free agency.

David Ortiz has been dominant and makes like $7-8 million per year; meanwhile, if you put Barton in RF or at 1B and let him play mediocre defense, his value goes through the roof to $11-12 million at free agency. This is assuming he has a couple .320/.440/.540 seasons in there with 25 bombs and and a gazillion walks.

It's pretty clear to me that Barton should a) be called up right now and b) become the long-term DH or be moved back to catcher, where his mediocre defense would be more than offset by the marginal/incremental improvement his bat would provide over the next best alternative (read: .900 OPS vs. .700 OPS, are you kidding me?).

Best case for Barton, IMO: Bring him up right now and let him DH. Hopefully he's closer to Jeff Francoeur than Nick Swisher April 2005. Then, send him to the Arizona Fall League to catch. Have him catch in Spring Training and start the year in AAA to refine catching skills. Bring him up mid-2006 (and extend his pre-FA time to 2012 over 2011 if you start him in the majors next year) to split time with Kendall at catcher and part-time DH. In 2007, you could trade Kendall (when $5 million comes from Pittsburgh) and let Barton catch full-time or keep the platoon going to spare Barton the physical toll of catching full time.

by NP15 on Aug 23, 2005 6:30 AM PDT 0 recs

It's pretty clear that his future is not at C

The organization seems committed to using him elsewhere. If his bat is as advertised, I think that's a good decision. Catching takes its toll and if he's not good at it, why bother? And why take the injury risk?

by boilerdan on Aug 23, 2005 8:25 AM PDT up 0 recs

I dont think Kendall will platoon....

the only way he will not catch 140 games is if he gets hurt.

by SanTropez on Aug 23, 2005 10:30 AM PDT up 0 recs

re: Barton catching

from BA a month back:

"The A's moved first baseman Daric Barton from Stockton to Midland after Barton tore up the California League, hitting .318 with eight homers. Barton was moved from catcher to first base this year because of arm soreness but the A's still plan to use him as a catcher down the road."

And people bringing up Hatte's value of taking pitches..Now you may or may not have noticed, but he doesn't see that many pitches any more. He swings at more balls and he misses on more swings. Just the other day he had pathetic 3 pitch K with the bases loaded.

Hatteberg is old and he's done. The A's are a better team with him on the bench. With nobody on Hatte will k, with a runner on first he'll gidp.

http://as-future.blogspot.com/

by blee1134 on Aug 23, 2005 8:50 AM PDT 0 recs

Hatteberg and pitch-taking

Hatteberg's pitches per plate appearance is way down this year: 3.87 vs his career average of 4.04. This year he ranks below Crosby, Ellis, Johnson, Kendall, Kielty, and Swisher.

Very interesting side note: Crosby leads the team with 4.17 PPA, which is better than Hatteberg has ever done in any year with 100+ ABs.

With Eric Chavez batting, Jason Kendall scores on defensive indifference.

by matthias on Aug 23, 2005 9:40 AM PDT 0 recs

Roster expansion is in 9 days

If Barton comes up it will be for roster expansion. Does 9 days really make that much of a difference?

by Donner on Aug 23, 2005 10:36 AM PDT 0 recs

did the last 9 days make a difference??

I think that answers your question.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Aug 23, 2005 10:52 AM PDT up 0 recs

Why not wait

and bring up Barton in 2009, just to be sure.

by oscarwdog on Aug 23, 2005 1:06 PM PDT 0 recs

re

Yes, 9 days does matter. If Barton is not up by the last day of August then he cannot be on the postseason roster. Unless the A's nut up and DL Hatteberg, but you know that wont happen.

http://as-future.blogspot.com/

by blee1134 on Aug 23, 2005 1:58 PM PDT 0 recs

Roster considerations

When you bring up Barton, you want to be 100% sure he's gonna stay up forever. Otherwise, you start his arbitration clock for no good reason, and you lose a year of his play six years down the line.
Barton is not currently on the 40-man roster, and I don't think he'll be eligible for the Rule 5 draft this winter. So if you put him on the roster just to make a cameo in September, then that's one less player the A's can protect from the Rule 5 draft in December.

by kenarneson on Aug 23, 2005 2:04 PM PDT 0 recs

okay

how would bringing him up now start his arbitration clock? Rich Harden was brought up after the ASB in 2003 and that didn't count towards arbitration for him, so why should late August count for Barton?

The 40 man roster issue would be a problem if the A's seriously thought Barton wouldn't come up to the majors at some point next year. Considering the prospect he is, thats probably not a problem. If he falls of precipitously, thats a whole different issue, and maybe he's not the prospect they thought.

I sort of buy the "he's not ready, it'll stunt his growth" argument--especially where defense is concerned---but it really doesn't seem that the roster/arby issue is even a concern.

Come ON A's!

by Alien on Aug 23, 2005 2:24 PM PDT up 0 recs