Rafael Palmeiro Suspended for Violating Drug Policy
I think many of us owe Jose Canseco a big apology, including myself. Rafael Palmeiro has been suspended for 10 games for violating the league's substance abuse policy.
Is this the case that finally makes people realize that steroids are more common in the sport than most believe? What does this do to a guy who just achieved 3,000 hits? Is he still a hall of famer?
The thing about it is that Palmeiro was one of the players in the steroid hearings that came across as sincere, believable and honest. Especially compared to McGwire.
But the shadow cast over the sport today is bigger than ever before. You knew that a superstar would eventually test positive. You knew this day would eventually come. But the fact that it was Palmeiro is remarkable.
Palmeiro said this at the hearing:
Well never obviously didn't include the future. And that quote has now changed to this:
It's a very sad day for baseball. There's a huge difference between Alex Sanchez and Palmeiro. And I, as a fan, am just sad that the sport has been completely soiled.
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Many Writers are on record:
This has to put Raffy in that same category.
by saint @ Athletics Nation on Aug 1, 2005 11:09 AM PDT reply actions
Ralphie!
by heatchaser on Aug 1, 2005 11:10 AM PDT reply actions
BOOOOOOO!!!!!
I do not believe so:
by saint @ Athletics Nation on Aug 1, 2005 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
It's nice to see...
It's Only Working...
In fact, at that point nobody will test positive...but that could just as easily be evidence that the program is failing to catch the violators. Unfortunately, I fear that it will be very hard to put this genie back in the bottle, especially since the lords of baseball are pretty ambivalent about steroids. They hate the negative publicity, but love the gargantuan home run numbers.
by GreenNGoldSooner on Aug 1, 2005 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree...
And...
Why, oh why, is he not banned for life?
And why does our team continue to field a catcher in single-A who has already been caught taking steroids THREE TIMES?
This is the one thing that pisses me off about the A's. We do everything the right way, but we're completely cajoneless when it comes to policing the junkies.
how common we think it is
by matthias on Aug 1, 2005 11:18 AM PDT reply actions
How sad.
Turns out that he stayed on the field those days with illegal help - Oh well.
I will never
However...this is a sad day for baseball.
by WhiteElephantGuy on Aug 1, 2005 11:19 AM PDT reply actions
why are his actions wrong?
That seems pretty straight up to me.
The word "actions"
How do I know his intentions? Well, I don't, but thats why I used the word actions because some of his actions show his poor intentions. For example, him only agreeing to a lie-detector test if the test was demonstrated on Pay-per-view. As well, he is a washed-up star on surreal life where he gets a good amount of capitol to be on it. I only conclude that his book was written to make a good chunk of change and reclaim some lost fame, which it did, oppose to coming clean. Not only that but in doing so, he tore to shreds any friends or connections he ever had in baseball world for the money. All in all, his actions as discussed in this context, are unforgiveable to me.
by WhiteElephantGuy on Aug 1, 2005 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Jose Wrote He Believes Miggy Juices
by reztips on Aug 1, 2005 11:21 AM PDT reply actions
I think you're right...
by ChaBinsky on Aug 1, 2005 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions
I think you're wrong
The fact that a witch hunt has resulted from the very real issue of steroid use by players is very sad.
Show me something other than conjecture that implicates Tejada, and I'll see things your way. But until you have a scintilla of evidence, all this Tejada talk just wreaks of a witch hunt and guilt by association.
No it is not a witch hunt
If Tejada looked more muscular, it is worth commenting about, and is not a "witch hunt" or "eff'ing sad". People know the speed limit and break the LAW all the time! Yet there was no "law" broken by Tejada IMHO. Even with Palmiero, it's just a big "hummph" from my POV. Guys have been cheating all the time.
What's worse? Taking steroids, or like Al Rosen batting for Cleveland, first ML at-bat? "Hey Al, watch that guy to the left of the scoreboard. If he raises his arm, it's a curveball." Rosen sees the sign, hits the pitch for a single, and as he rounds first base, thinks, "No wonder they hit so well up here..,."
by Ducts on the Pawn on Aug 1, 2005 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Uh...huh?
My definition of a witch hunt is a group of people suspecting another group of people of committing a wrong, simply because a few other people within that group have been convicted of committing the same wrong. Maybe that defintion isn't correct, but...
This is DEFINITELY a witch hunt.
Easy way for Miggy to defend himself...
Until Sosa, Bonds, Giambi, Tejada, and anyone else who muscled up and hits ungodly long shots come clean, they'll always be suspected of cheating.
What's wrong is not the suspicion. What's wrong is that it always seems to be well-grounded.
Plenty of players have admitted to using roids. Plenty have tested positive. But who has ever taken an independent test to prove they're drug-free?
Wait a minute
Why should he take any tests just to appease those out to prove he's anything but clean?? To appease people who accuse him of something on message boards, despite the fact they have no evidence that he did anything wrong?
Seriously...that's not a very good idea. Why would he do anything like that?
There's no obligation at all.
I know that if someone accused me of drug use, I wouldn't have a problem peeing in a cup for anyone to prove they were wrong.
But then again... I'm not using drugs...
And another thing
You're lumping him in with guys who did muscle up and acquire seemingly inhuman power. Tejada simply doesn't belong in that group.
Yes, I have
I just don't think there's a very strong case that Tejada used steroids. Maybe I'm wrong, but as I said before, I'll need a smoking gun to convince me that he did.
Long Ball!
Yes
But he did hit some deeeeeeep shots that were a bit surprising, yes. He did demonstrate some pretty amazing power. Maybe it was not natural; I choose to believe that it was.
in the NBA
We don't know
Orioles first baseman Rafael Palmeiro was suspended Monday for 10 days by Major League Baseball for violating its Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment Program and will begin serving the suspension immediately
The drug testing policy covers more than just steroids. On the ESPN MLB front page it says:
Rafael Palmeiro vociferously stated in March that he never used steroids. But on Monday, he was suspended 10 days for testing positive for steroids. He continues to deny steroid use.
So either ESPN has some extra information or they decided to add a slant to the story which is not true. If the later I'm thinking Mr. Palmiero will have a big lawsuit coming ESPN's way.
Has anyone caught Canseco
by ChaBinsky on Aug 1, 2005 11:21 AM PDT reply actions
Yeah
haha! that was awesome
by ChaBinsky on Aug 1, 2005 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Before condemning Palmiero...
by richwol on Aug 1, 2005 11:24 AM PDT reply actions
Riiiight.
Raffy is being paid millions of dollars a year. He knows full well what it legal and what isn't. If there's ever any doubt, all he has to do is call a club physician, or a trainer, or an MD and ask.
He got busted, and no amount of 'but I didn't know' will ever remove the label of 'cheat' from his back.
Agreed!
by griswold00 on Aug 1, 2005 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Addendum: MLB should rigorously check out both
BTW, blackpearl raises an interesting question of whether Palmiero could be indicted for perjuring himself before Congress. I could be in error on this, but prosecutors would have to find evidence to prove that Raffy was using steroids prior to his Congressional testimony (doubtless, the evidence is out there--the question is, whether or not investigators could find it).
by reztips on Aug 1, 2005 11:25 AM PDT reply actions
Roberts has had the most enviable
Guess Byrnes has it too now (Fantasy alert).
by captainamerica on Aug 1, 2005 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
substantial power surge?
Come on! At least be intellectually honest here.
we may have a problem of semantics
Starting in 2000-- which was a year after the Bonds "surge" began-- he hit 122 HRS in his next 2527 ABs as an A-- 1 in 21 ABs
That's a big difference, and perhaps a surge, but it also true that a lot of players experience such a jump in their 3rd or 4th year.
Who can ever know? We're all guessing.
i'm not saying tejada's clean or not
by blueconversechucks on Aug 1, 2005 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Where's your data?
Okay. Before 1990...
Since 1990, another 19 have hit that mark. More than double the entire previous history of the game, in just 15 seasons.
--
Before 1998, nobody had ever hit more than 61 home runs - a mark considered nigh untouchable for the best part of the 20th century.
Since 1998, it's been passed 6 times, and each season that it has been surpassed, it's been passed by not one, but two players.
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hihr4.shtml
There's your empiric evidence.
This is correct
[sigh] All of the homer records that beat Maris just aren't records. Far too tainted.
It is correct, no doubt
Oz's contention
- Smaller ballparks
- Weight training
- No fear of striking out
- Making Sports Center ("Chicks dig the long ball")
- Willingness to go deep the other way. (I believe it was Bill James who said something like "People thought that players going from aluminum bats to wood would learn that they can't go deep to the opposite field, but in fact they learned that they could."
Oh yeah, I just thought of more..
- Games started being played in Denver
- The ball. Remember all those pitchers talking about how the ball's seams are lower and that you can't get the skin to move at all any more?
Don't forget...
#9. Better nutrition. We've learned a lot about how to make ourselves bigger, faster, and stronger. Not all of these mechanisms are illegal.
by sfodoug on Aug 1, 2005 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
How does that deal with Tejada?
Year ABs HRs
1997 99 2
1998 365 11
1999 593 21
2000 607 30
2001 622 31
2002 662 31
2003 636 27
2004 653 34
2005 421 22
Nothing in there suggests to me that he's done anything unnatural. In fact, since 2000 (his third year in the leage), he's been very consistent in the HR department. As you aptly point out, the 50 HR barrage of the 90s was truly unique in the history of the game. As you see here, Mr. Tejada has never threatened the 50 HR mark.
but his 2004 HR derby barrage...
ha!
Palmeiro's statement:
"I am sure you will ask how I tested positive for a banned substance. As I look back, I don't have a specific answer to give. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to explain to the arbitrator how the banned substance entered my body. The arbitrator did not find that I used a banned substance intentionally - in fact, he said he found my testimony to be compelling - but he ruled that I could not meet the heavy burden imposed on players who test positive under the new drug policy."
"Intentionally" is a word...
More than one reason for needing Viagra
by Instant Replay Umpire on Aug 1, 2005 11:29 AM PDT reply actions
When?
The timing IS a little suspicious.
by baseballgirl on Aug 1, 2005 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions
yes
Juan Rincon provided his testimony July 26th.
yeah, but this one
and the day after the HOF ceremony.
definitely
Sanchez and Rincon aren't the big news-makers like Palmeiro.
I got over the sadness a long time ago
Bonds made it too obvious. and Giambi was obvious in retrospect. And the home run numbers-- baseball's deal with the devil-- were absurd for about 5-6 years.
And once BALCO hit, I was pissed off, but hardly sad. The innoncence departed a long time ago.
Now I'm more glad that a BSer like Palmeiro (that's what Will Clark's been saying for, like, 20 years) got nailed.
If there's any innocence, it's in our Little Engine That Could story. But no one should assume we have a bunch of choirboys to root for.
I Agree
As for baseball itself, it's a great game -- the greatest game -- despite what those in charge of MLB have been doing to it. It will survive. It's nice that external pressure is forcing those in charge of the game to behave slightly more responsibly. We can only hope that some day the sport gets more thoughtful and responsible custodians.
by GreenNGoldSooner on Aug 1, 2005 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions
i think the players union
by blueconversechucks on Aug 1, 2005 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Fair Enough
But on this issue I totally agree with you: both are equally to blame.
by GreenNGoldSooner on Aug 1, 2005 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I mean...
Cheaper tickets(though the A's aren't bad)
Fans would go to more games and spend more money on shirts and memorabilia.
I love baseball, so I pay.
But, I really find the salaries of players and the profits of owners to be on the high side for getting to be a part of the great game of baseball.
Oh, and here is another idea. Pay the venders, the people who clean the park and the security etc. more, too.
by Mz K on Aug 1, 2005 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Raffy's Chances
This won't end his career, for proof look across the bay and see Alex Sanchez, but his HOF chances are dead.
Baseball's already been soiled; see the Black Sox, the exclusion of Black players, Pete Rose, BALCO. It doesn't look good for the sport, but hey, Baseball has been through this before.
by secret ASian man on Aug 1, 2005 11:37 AM PDT reply actions
Black Sox scandal
close to a major league club.
Interestingly, I think it was Bill Veeck, during WWII, who was going to buy the Phillies and stock the entire club with black players for the 1944 season. But it got discovered and blocked.
by Ducts on the Pawn on Aug 1, 2005 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
interesting
Wow I wonder about Jason now????
Is he back to his old ways?
Or has he overcome the muscle stiffness and is seeing the ball and giving it more lift.
Pulling the ball to the short porch in Yankee Stadium for all those Homeruns?
I don't know, you would like to think he's not that stupid.
But, about two monthes ago the Yanks were looking for any takers on him.
They were even thinking of send him down or even releasing him.
still unclaimed in 3/4 of my fantasy leagues.
i honestly believe that he's not on anything and that he's not that stupid. BUT... numbers don't lie, and his numbers are a bit too good to be true.
then again, he hasn't bulked up much again.
come to your own conclusion.
I actually believe Giambi is clean
Please help disabled kids in Sacramento play baseball by helping the Rivercats build a specially equipped field for them.
by kaweahkaweah on Aug 1, 2005 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions
I thought that ...
Learning to fly
Lo and behold buddy. You didn't need those 'roids after all.
Old Way is Way Dope
2K5 Month -> BA -> HR
April -> .224 -> 3
May -> .241 -> 1
June -> .310 -> 1
July -> .355 -> 14
Giambi is known for a lot of things like Steroids, In-N-Out Burger, & Tatts.... but never being streaky.
by yellowman on Aug 2, 2005 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Everybody's thinking this, Mike Heath
He's the only one, by all accounts, that had the stones to admit that he cheated in front of the grand jury, and he's the one who came out and apologized for it (albeit without admitting why he was apologizing). I think he's done with it. I think he's just found his groove again, he's confident, and the ball is flying out of the yard. He is in the middle of a murderer's row lineup and has always been a good hitter - juice or no juice. It's not too hard for me to believe that he's gone on a power surge because he's seeing the ball well. Call me naive, and I'll call you cynical..and neither of us will know the truth!
It's just another sad day in baseball.
I think the whole "The Sport is Soiled"
Sure it diminishes the value of certain players numbers but to me thats it.. Baseball is such a team sport I cant say Steriods spoiled any teams accomplishments... If any team it would probably the Bash Brother A's right??
The bottom line to me is that artificially inflated numbers over the last 15-20 years do not tarnish the game of baseball.. but thats just my view
I agree
People at -any- major league level are going to try to get an edge. The only real problem is 17-yr-olds who don't have a hope of playing ML ball, but take a ton of crrrappp and permanently ruin their life.
Or die.
In the 1903 World Series, the crowd was held back by a rope along the foul lines. If a Pirate hit a double down the line, the crowd backed up, giving the Red Sox player plenty of room to retrieve the ball. If the Pirate right-fielder was after a Red Sox hit, the crowd hugged the foul line, and he had to "swim" through the crowd to retrieve the ball!!
Is that "fair" or un"fair"? Is that WS tainted??
by Ducts on the Pawn on Aug 1, 2005 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Not Much Correlation between MLB and HS
To me its just players wanting to get whatever "edge" is possible.. if they arent going to get caught.. they are going to do it.. its sad but true and it starts around 14 years old.
Unfair and tainted.
Sure, we've known for years that there were people using roids in the majors, but that doesn't make it 'baseball'.
How many WS games were lost by those that deserved to win, when a deep pop fly got over the wall on the strength of a steriod shot?
How many pitchers who should have been grabbing easy outs instead watched their careers die as the ball left the yard?
And most importantly, how many of our children also knew these guys were on roids, and decided to give them a try?
Steroid users are filth. They should never be acceptable to anyone who considers himself a fan of the game, because they destroy the one thing over the last century-plus that has been a constant - the integrity of the scoreline.
No sport,
And dont forget pitchers took/take the juice also
You're kind of selling my point for me.
I've spoken to pitchers in single-A ball who are annoyed that they can't use steroids in the minors, because "I took all sorts of stuff in college and it never hurt me at all."
That's why this is a problem. You ahve a whole generation of kids who know that, without steroids, they're unlikely to make it.
Only catch is, with steroids, they're likely to fall off the mound and have a heart attack at 32.
Professional Sports are what they are
You cant expect professional athletes to live a higher standard of life than normal "every day people"
Businesses cheat to inflate earnings, College Sports cheat in recruiting, you'd be hard pressed to find ANYTHING that is "pure"
So when watching a baseball game or any game for that matter what I do is dismiss everything that is going on in players lives and focus on what happens on the Diamond..
That's like saying
And I don't know what inference is to be drawn when people cite the bad behavior in the old days. So what? Since players behaved badly in the past, does that provide a hall pass to bad behavior in the present? Hey! Did you know that slavery used to be legal in this country?
When I was in college, I was shocked when a friend of mine asked me to help him cheat on an exam. I think I underestimate how many people there are whose only qualm about cheating on a test is the risk of getting caught. For these people, I can understand why their attitude toward pumping things like hydrochloritestosterone into their body is one of, "What's the big deal?"
(Sorry, Duby, I don't mean to bust your chops. I just felt like venting.)
by Checkswing HR on Aug 1, 2005 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Don't Change
by tmail on Aug 1, 2005 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Zero tolerance
George Bush is still in denial
White House spokesman Scott McClellan said President Bush considers Palmeiro "a friend and he believes him" when he says he never intentionally took steroids.
'Course Bush also thought that he could convince
by reztips on Aug 1, 2005 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Joe Sheehan on Baseball Prospectus
by captainamerica on Aug 1, 2005 11:50 AM PDT reply actions
i hate to say i told you so....
you have to read between the lines. there were quotes from both stew and rickey in the local papers that pretty much said "canseco is telling the truth" but in a roundabout way, because they obviously don't want to be blacklisted like he has been.
those who had their heads in the sand the whole time, what do you think now?
devo?
found it
http://www.athleticsnation.com/story/2005/2/7/143530/6558
from the chronicle:
However, ex-A's pitcher Dave Stewart wouldn't say Canseco's accusations weren't true.
"I could never say 'Josie' is a liar," Stewart said. "I don't like his work ethic, and I don't like him as a teammate. But one thing I can't say about him is he's a liar.
"As far as what Josie's saying, I can't deny it or verify it. I'm not going to pretend it didn't happen because I don't know. We weren't in the same circles, but I'd have to say he definitely knows what's going on in his circle. Nobody I associated with on the team was a steroid user (among the players Stewart mentioned: Lansford, Rickey Henderson, Dave Henderson and Dennis Eckersley).
"If this is all made up, he'll suffer some serious damages. But if you're an admitted steroid user, believe me, you'd know who uses them."
from another article in the chronicle:
For the record, though, none of the reporters who went to Barnes & Noble initiated the steroid talk. Canseco did that himself, hollering to Rickey Henderson's in-laws as they walked away from the table with three signed books: "That's one of the players who's not on steroids."
Rosalind Ono said she and her husband, Ed, lined up outside the store at 4 p.m. to see their son-in-law's former teammate. They entered first, with a cell phone connected to Henderson in Phoenix. They handed the phone to Canseco, who talked for a short time and then signed one of the Onos' books especially for Henderson: "To a great player, a friend."
The Onos stopped to talk to the media and vouched for the author. "One thing Rickey said is Jose does not lie," Rosalind Ono said.
Several of his former teammates have said the same thing, although La Russa has vilified the man he managed during their glorious run in Oakland. Determined to protect the legacy of McGwire, who also played for La Russa when he broke the single-season home run record with St. Louis, the manager has said that Canseco had to resort to steroids because he wasn't willing to work hard enough.
"Time it was...


WOW, Giambi's arms are smaller than mine
I gotta get on the juice.......
i think i could have
Alien?
Is it just me...
by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Aug 1, 2005 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions
I always believed Canseco
Juan Gonzalez- gets hurt every AB
Ivan Rodriguez - Mysteriously 30 pounds skinnier and looking like a 15 year old
Mark McGwire - already made a fool of himself
and now Palmiero
exactly
good point
Canseco apparently...
...says he slept with hundreds of women, but not Madonna. Someone had to not do it.
whatever happend to jrbh?
happenEd
who did we get?
so we just dumped him?
hey, I'm not complaining.
no, that's tokyooak
he's toiling away in some
jrbh
he was already pretty disgruntled though, i think he mentioned getting rid of his season tickets. he didn't seem to be a big beane fan.
i believe he was the original "a's will win 60 games and finish in last place" guy, long before ratto, may oaktoon, etc.
now that the a's are about to win their 60th game, i doubt we'll ever hear from him again.
it's probably for the better, because i don't think he could deal with the concept of "no politics" and "no personal attacks"
he was at AN day 1.0 so maybe he has tickets for version 2.0??
sometimes i kind of miss his pessimism and bitterness...
imagine jrbh in May...
oh man, i'd rather not imagine it
hmmm...
Holy crap
I take that back.
I don't think he'd like the ass talk and would be trying to kill us.
While wearing sad-clown makeup?
jrbh couldn't handle the criticism on AN and slunk
by reztips on Aug 1, 2005 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Reading this thread
jrbh hasn't posted on AN for 3 1/2 months, and still we have people blasting him.
And then someone wonders why he's gone?
JRBH
by OaktownTribesman on Aug 1, 2005 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions
come on, bear88, that's complete nonsense
THAT is how he came up. then sharon wondered what happened to him. it was pretty innocent, not like random jrbh bashing after 3 1/2 months...
xbhaskarx
jrbh was one of the "old-timers" on the site, whose pungent commentary added to the entertaining mix back then. He strongly defended baseballgirl last year after a woman complained that she was too loud at last year's AN Day.
I have never liked attacks and mockery, especially when the target is not even around to respond. jrbh could give as good as he got, although I always thought the hostility aimed at him seemed excessive and oddly personal.
agreed
"sometimes i kind of miss his pessimism and bitterness..."
there's no question he was entertaining, and pretty knowledgeable as well, plus you have to respect anyone who, as you say, could give as good as he got.
Even months after S&H sold the A's, jbhk
by reztips on Aug 1, 2005 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Interesting
by Reg on Aug 2, 2005 6:17 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, Reg, there is no need for jbhk to
Reg, jeffreyb is definitively, emphatically, jbhk. I've read his ridiculous, bitter posts for years and the authorship is unmistakably the same.
by reztips on Aug 2, 2005 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Yet Pudge
by blueconversechucks on Aug 1, 2005 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Cheating
But no matter what all this crap about 'steriods' is, and most likely will be for years to come, I find it easier to just concentrate on the sheer beauty of the game itself - regardless of the fact its players are busy shooting themselves filled with drugs. That part, definitely, is shameful, but The Game is still being played.
And that, to me, is what counts.
hear hear
by WhiteElephantGuy on Aug 1, 2005 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I told you so, too!!
Actually, when he got his 3,000th hit last week, I was finally willing to relent and say, "let him into the Hall of Fame." But this makes it easy not to let him in. Sosa and McGwire and Bonds, assholes though they may be, performed at TOO HIGH A LEVEL to bypass Cooperstown--their accomplishments are too great. But Palmeiro? He was a borderline case, and this should absolutely end his chances. The Orioles' meltdown continues.
how about "none of the above"
"everybody was doing it" is not a valid excuse...
Bonds without Juice
yeah, well, too bad he took roids then
True
Sosa and McGwire will probably still make it... and Palmiero has an outside shot..
rose and shoeless joe
Fixing baseball games is much more serious
Regardless, I'm aware everyone hates Bonds cuz he plays for the Giants.. but he is the greatest hitter of my lifetime and CLEARLY belongs in the Hall of Fame
How can you even say that?
Let's say that without the juice, Bonds can't stay healthy, has half the homerun pop, and spend a lot more time injured (like, say, he has this season).
Do the Giants make the World Series? Do they even make the play-offs?
How many games were won on Barry's homeruns? Take those away, and the Giants miss the playoffs - period.
Game-fixing is bad, but season-fixing is horrendous, and that's what steroids do.
If 10% of the MLB Players are on Juice
Sure it may look to YOU that San Fran made the World Series because of Balco, but in reality Bonds wasnt the only juicer.. just the Best player who was taking performing enhancing drugs.
its really not comparable..
Bonds is 1 man he controlled himself...
Rose & Jacson controlled ENTIRE teams..
No. They. Didn't.
Shoeless Joe controlled nobody - he took money from shysters to throw the game, and then had the greatest playoff series of anyone on the team by a country mile.
If those two were banned from the game forever, I can't see how Raffy Palmeiro can be allowed back on the diamond in ten days time. Makes no sense, never will.
There is a diference
On the other hand, I think the line for past steroid use is a little blury. 1) it was not against any baseball policey or rule until just recently. 2) If anything it improved the performance between the white lines it in no way compromised the decisions made on the field. Rose made a bargain which sealed the evidence they had against him, but I think that the evidence showed he bet on games he was managing in (though probably on the Reds) I think that in of itself shows how the manager feels about the teams chances as well as his failure to bet on the team the next day or the day after. It also calls into question certain decisions, wether it is resting certain starters using his top relievers to long etc. 3) I think Canseco is right that the majority if not all of the top players in the 90's were using steroids. How do you devalue their careers or stats and why? is it diferent then othe supplements etc. ?
Also I would agree that baseball is getting bad press but I would bet that football and basketball have a worse problem.
Bob
Depends on how you look at it...
Does fixing games hurt the credibility of the game? Absolutely. Does taking steroids hurt the credibility of the game? Not necessarily, because a team of all non-steroid users can beat a team of all steroid users. That's one of the reasons we love this game to begin with.
So for the sake of the game, in my opinion, fixing games is worse. We can punish and throw out players for steroid use, but baseball fans will watch the game because we know the product is pure competition and not like WWE.
If, for example, we found out that teams were intentionally losing to the A's all throughout the rest of this season so gamblers could make a huge amount of cash, however, we would be absolutely mortified, much more than Rafael Palmeiro or Jose Canseco could ever do to us.
by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Aug 1, 2005 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Fixing games
by OaktownTribesman on Aug 1, 2005 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions
mcgwire was
What i don't like about this all, is how people think that this is a problem only with baseball. Im sorry, but football has a much worse roids problem.
New point though. Wasn't the whole point of BALCO that they were producing roids that could not be detected??? Isn't that the real problem? because if baseball can detect them, the "problem" will subside, which would be great. if baseball can't, then we are in deep water
MLB testing is a joke.
Are they testing for masking agents that cover up steroid use?
Are they hell.
My understanding
by Checkswing HR on Aug 1, 2005 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Raffy
I hate it that we get these press releases simply saying "So and So has violated the policy" without any more information.
by Alien @ Athletics Nation on Aug 1, 2005 12:17 PM PDT reply actions
Check out
http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/pa/info/cba.jsp
They post the Collective Bargaining Agreement there.
by Checkswing HR on Aug 1, 2005 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Makes me wonder...
by Tornacious on Aug 1, 2005 12:20 PM PDT reply actions
They had to know
O's are having a press conference
It'll be a better game when they all stop, but if Canseco's right about how widespead it is (now believing him) it's hard to fault guys' being tempted. Isn't it?
by captainamerica on Aug 1, 2005 12:23 PM PDT reply actions
Please tell me the MLB steroid policy
<Laughing hysterically>
But he didn't mean it!
"I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky."
"We have good information that Saddam Hussein is trying to acquire yellow cake uranium from Africa."
Am I missing any?
anybody....
PS - I don't mean to sound all trollish. :(
I'm with you
Try telling that...
Look....
But there's a reason there's so much talk...
Once MLB and the players clean up their act, we'll have no need to talk about it. Until they do, the only way they ever will is if we stay on it.
Yeah, I get that
I was just wishing for a whole baseball discussion without "Who's on steriods now?" questions. It just seems to me that that isn't really possible right now.
Not to sound cold
It's baseball's fault because...
B) Steroid users know that millions of kids look up to them.
I agree with point A
And I agree that baseball should set a better example.
Perhaps we both want the same thing. I'm all for stiffer penalties. 50 games/1 year/forever works for me (I can't see an immediate lifelong ban because of the total lack of regulation of supplements in our country, which is even worse abroad). I'd also like to see players who test positive referred for prosecution under the laws of their home state.
What annoys me about hearing "steroids" so much in the news is that it just seems like a bunch of posturing. It's like I've been transported to the "Harumphing" scene in Blazing Saddles. It's the same kind of thing that bothered me about the Michael Jackson trial. A disproportionate amount of attention is being paid to it, and the wrong kind at that--it's all about who did what, not how to fix it. Or in other words, it's about "Who's on the juice?", not how to fix the problem.
Good points all.
But seeing Raffy got to prison for breaking the law and taking steroids might have some serious consequences and right some very long-running wrongs.
If only the President wasn't claiming he's innocent, that is...
He still wants Raffy's checks to clear
Well...
by blueconversechucks on Aug 1, 2005 12:58 PM PDT reply actions
Yeah, but I think he might be guilty of using...
Just heard about it
The Worst Aspect of the Current Steroid Scandal
So players can chemically build themselves up with HGH and not worry about urine testing.
I'm upset because there goes my stock in the "Whizzinator."
Joking aside, this is a most serious matter as a good percentage of players who were juicing have doubtless moved on to taking HGH...
by reztips on Aug 1, 2005 1:25 PM PDT reply actions
Why does everyone doubt Canseco?
You're half right
ok, I'll give you that ...
holy sh*t! did you just say
by captainamerica on Aug 1, 2005 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
After Pudge's
by TheO4Ever on Aug 1, 2005 1:56 PM PDT reply actions
Yeah...
And did anyone catch the lack of love between him and his son during the Home Run Derby? I caught what appeared to be Pudge snapping at the little guy a few times too. That poor kid kept looking at his dad like he was biggest prick in the world.
The most pressing question of all
5 problems facing MLB that are worse than steroids
Off the top of my head, here are 5 more pressing structural problems facing MLB:
- the continued self-dealing of the clown show that is Selig's commissionership
- the decline in popularity of and participation in baseball by African American youth
- the existence of the antitrust exemption
- the still-prevalent practice of holding communities hostage for public financing of stadia
- Joe Morgan
Point 4 is pretty critical to AN
I want to build an authentic German restaurant. It will benefit the entire city. Can't they pay for it?
In what other line of business does THAT kind of logic work?
Oh, and ...
MLB has actually made previous stabs at adopting cosmetic public policies that made feints in the direction of reducing use of the stuff in the minors, but they've dropped the ball on it. If MLB can ban steroids, why can't they ban chaw?
I'd much rather see MLB take up an antismoking/antichaw campaign than the current prostate-cancer prevention one.
You forgot Problem #1: The Competitive Imbalance
by Checkswing HR on Aug 1, 2005 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually ...
As Beane and his disciples have, to my satisfaction, proved, 95% of the "competitive imbalance" comes from a disparity of talent at the managerial-ownership level combined with an unwillingness by so-called small-market team owners to roll their revenue-sharing into player salaries vs their own pockets.
When you buy the Selig Line -- that "small markets" and "lack of 'viable' new stadia" cause on-field talent and W-L disparity (i.e., "competitive imbalance") -- you prove PT Barnum right all over again.
Are you saying that
I'm not saying that money is the ONLY variable that determines whether a team wins. But it's probably the most important one. Just look at the records of big-money teams vs. small-money teams, in aggregate.
Remember when Billy B. said, after we lost to Minnesota in '03, that we could win if we had another $50 million? Can you imagine if genius had been merged with resources, i.e., if Billy had stayed with the Red Sox?
by Checkswing HR on Aug 1, 2005 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions
No ... forgive me my hyperbole!
And, yes, if you have a huge pile of cash and a sweet cable deal, you can afford all sorts of extravangances to cover up the fundamental flaws in your club.
However, I still maintain that the grounds on which Selig and his cronies argue "disparity" are utter crapola.
And -- there are reasons beyond size that account for the marketing success of some of the big teams.
Player Payroll Disparity
Here, I agree with Checkswing that the payroll disparities are a major problem with the game. That the table in MLB is so far from level can largely be placed at the feet of the excreble playrers' union which continues to oppose the salary cap parities which make both the NFL and to a lesser but still pertinent extent, the NBA, far fairer and honestly competitive...
Imagine the A's w/o BB, for he's really an aberration...You'd have KC.
by reztips on Aug 1, 2005 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Did anyone every believe Viagra pitchman Palmeiro?
He shouldn't be barred from the hall for taking the juice, he should be barred for having so little class!
by BruceBochte on Aug 1, 2005 2:41 PM PDT reply actions
canseco interview tonight
will be interviewing canseco at 7 and 10pm (PDT)
tonight. FWIW.
by joe rudi is my hero on Aug 1, 2005 2:53 PM PDT reply actions
not the least surprised
this asshole is a liar and cheat.
I, for one,
Drug tests aren't 100% accurate and there are always some false positives. Even if the drug test is accurate, there's all sorts of ways a trainer could slip him something without his knowledge.
When I read "Juiced", I found most of it pretty convincing. But there were some parts that seemed like they were written just to shock the reader.
"I have never knowingly"
Olney and Kurkjin Both said they would Vote 4 Raff
Olney said something like "There is no way to distinguish those who cheated and those that didnt"
.....
I almost agree...
The problem with me is that there isn't hard scientific proof of how large an advantage steroids give, and in what capacity this could help a major league ballplayer.
Would they have helped Palmeiro: 1) play a better defensive 1st base? 2) hit for a higher average? 3) hit more home runs? 4) have more speed on the basepaths?
Those questions were on purpose a bit to illustrate to a small degree that despite being an obvious supplement to strength, steroids aren't going to help a player in every facet of the game.
But make no mistake -- even if steroids had no effect, if/when he took them, Palmeiro ~thought~ they would help him, so that does make him a cheater in my book. It also seems he's a liar, which of course is even worse.
But as I'm uncertain as to how much any PED's helped someone who is, without doubt, a very talented hitter regardless of steroid use, I can't just wipe out everything he's done. Not yet.
by Daniel @ Athletics Nation on Aug 1, 2005 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions
the thing is
"There is no way to distinguish..."
in that case, don't let ANY of them in the HoF, that seems like a simple enough solution...
Check the stats
hmm
i find it funny when someone mentions his name, usually non-baseball fans know him as "that baseball player who takes viagra". guess that might change now...
chicago tribune on palmeiro
http://www.camdenchat.com/story/2005/8/2/12111/42239
Palmeiro, who had volunteered to serve on Congress' "Zero Tolerance" task force after the March 17 appearance in Washington, claims he unknowingly took a banned substance. However, a highly placed MLB source told the Tribune that Palmeiro tested positive for a "serious" steroid that could not have been ingested accidentally.
"There's no way to get around this," the source said. "This wasn't a little mistake, and as Mr. Palmeiro found out, there are no exceptions in our program. If you are found out, you will pay the price."
Palmeiro would not explain how he came to test positive. He seemingly tried to leave the impression that the banned substance was contained in a supplement that was not prescribed.
Palmeiro, according to the MLB source, has known about the positive test for "three weeks to a month."
...
Palmeiro said his teammates didn't learn of his suspension until Monday morning.
Does it matter what was banned when?
by ncb on Aug 2, 2005 12:30 PM PDT reply actions

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