Athletics Nation: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Race to the Roses & BCS Bowl Predictions

Rafael Palmeiro Suspended for Violating Drug Policy

I think many of us owe Jose Canseco a big apology, including myself.  Rafael Palmeiro has been suspended for 10 games for violating the league's substance abuse policy.

Is this the case that finally makes people realize that steroids are more common in the sport than most believe?  What does this do to a guy who just achieved 3,000 hits?  Is he still a hall of famer?

The thing about it is that Palmeiro was one of the players in the steroid hearings that came across as sincere, believable and honest.  Especially compared to McGwire.

But the shadow cast over the sport today is bigger than ever before.  You knew that a superstar would eventually test positive.  You knew this day would eventually come.  But the fact that it was Palmeiro is remarkable.

Palmeiro said this at the hearing:

"Let me start by telling you this: I have never used steroids. Period. I don't know how to say it any more clearly than that. Never."

Well never obviously didn't include the future.  And that quote has now changed to this:

"I have never intentionally used steroids. Never. Ever. Period," he said. "Ultimately, although I never intentionally put a banned substance into my body, the independent arbitrator ruled that I had to be suspended under the terms of the program."

It's a very sad day for baseball.  There's a huge difference between Alex Sanchez and Palmeiro.  And I, as a fan, am just sad that the sport has been completely soiled.

0 recs  |  Comment 216 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Many Writers are on record:
As saying they will not vote for McGwire becasue of the steroid factor.

This has to put Raffy in that same category.

by saint on Aug 1, 2005 11:09 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Ralphie!
I knew you used "performance enhancers".... but geez!!! Horrible day for an incredible sport...
...White Shoes for Life

by heatchaser on Aug 1, 2005 11:10 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

BOOOOOOO!!!!!
I hope he gets this treatment the rest of the season.  How terrible for a guy who testified adamently in front of congress to keep using the juice!  just awful publicity and a permanent black mark on a great career
The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face.

by JJ on Aug 1, 2005 11:13 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Is he now culpable for perjury?
Lil Kim was just sent to jail for a year for that.

by theblackpearl on Aug 1, 2005 11:17 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I do not believe so:
They would have to prove that he took them before he testified. This suspension occured for use after the testimony.

by saint on Aug 1, 2005 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's nice to see...
...that the testing is actually taking place and working.  Of course, it also makes you wonder who will be next.

by Lefty on Aug 1, 2005 11:17 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

It's Only Working...
...if, in the long run, all players stop using performance enhancing drugs.  And it's far, far too early to see if that's going to happen.

In fact, at that point nobody will test positive...but that could just as easily be evidence that the program is failing to catch the violators.  Unfortunately, I fear that it will be very hard to put this genie back in the bottle, especially since the lords of baseball are pretty ambivalent about steroids. They hate the negative publicity, but love the gargantuan home run numbers.

by GreenNGoldSooner on Aug 1, 2005 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree...
...that the owners don't really care much about catching the steroid users, but the players who are clean do, and I think that the use of steroids is not as widespread as some suspect.  The fact that Palmeiro, a guy who was clearly confident he would test cleanly, tested positive demonstrates that the methodology is pretty sensitive.  

by Lefty on Aug 1, 2005 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And...
...the fact that he'll be playing again this season is a dire black eye on the face of the sport.

Why, oh why, is he not banned for life?

And why does our team continue to field a catcher in single-A who has already been caught taking steroids THREE TIMES?

This is the one thing that pisses me off about the A's. We do everything the right way, but we're completely cajoneless when it comes to policing the junkies.

by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2005 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

how common we think it is
You suggest that most people don't think steroid use is very common. I disagree. I certainly believe steroid use has been very common. I just hesitate to point fingers at any particular player until specific concrete evidence turns up against that particular player. I could name, many, many players who I would guess have probably used steroids. But I won't name them, because some of them may not have.

by matthias on Aug 1, 2005 11:18 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

How sad.
I really had believed Raffy.  He seemed like he just went through his business day in, day out, the right way.

Turns out that he stayed on the field those days with illegal help - Oh well.

"The game has a cleanness. If you do a good job, the numbers say so. You don't have to ask anyone or play politics..." - Koufax

by Zakolantern on Aug 1, 2005 11:19 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I will never
give Jose an apology as I never cared whether he was right or wrong.  His actions are wrong and he's just a bad person.

However...this is a sad day for baseball.

Change is for the better. For both the A's and in life.

by WhiteElephantGuy on Aug 1, 2005 11:19 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

why are his actions wrong?
If you're talking about selling autographs to ten-year-olds, then sure. But writing a book admitting that he and his buddies broke the law for a decade or longer?

That seems pretty straight up to me.

by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2005 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The word "actions"
I think it was a poor choice of a word.  I meant to say that his intentions were poor despite the good that has come from it.  

How do I know his intentions?  Well, I don't, but thats why I used the word actions because some of his actions show his poor intentions.  For example, him only agreeing to a lie-detector test if the test was demonstrated on Pay-per-view.  As well, he is a washed-up star on surreal life where he gets a good amount of capitol to be on it.  I only conclude that his book was written to make a good chunk of change and reclaim some lost fame, which it did, oppose to coming clean.  Not only that but in doing so, he tore to shreds any friends or connections he ever had in baseball world for the money.  All in all, his actions as discussed in this context, are unforgiveable to me.

Change is for the better. For both the A's and in life.

by WhiteElephantGuy on Aug 1, 2005 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jose Wrote He Believes Miggy Juices
As I wrote on another thread, given that Raffy got caught using steroids and is a teammate of Miggy, and that Tejada appeared twice as muscular in the A's ST camp the year he won the MVP, I won't be remotely surprised if Jose was also right about Miggy using roids...

by reztips on Aug 1, 2005 11:21 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I think you're right...
.. but that's just effing sad.

by ChaBinsky on Aug 1, 2005 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you're wrong
and that's effing sad.

The fact that a witch hunt has resulted from the very real issue of steroid use by players is very sad.

Show me something other than conjecture that implicates Tejada, and I'll see things your way. But until you have a scintilla of evidence, all this Tejada talk just wreaks of a witch hunt and guilt by association.

by Dog Days on Aug 1, 2005 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No it is not a witch hunt
because it is merely baseball, not a pilot getting drunk and endangering other's lives.

If Tejada looked more muscular, it  is worth commenting about, and is not a "witch hunt" or "eff'ing sad".  People know the speed limit and break the LAW all the time!  Yet there was no "law" broken by Tejada IMHO.  Even with Palmiero, it's just a big "hummph" from my POV.  Guys have been cheating all the time.  

What's worse?  Taking steroids, or like Al Rosen batting for Cleveland, first ML at-bat?  "Hey Al, watch that guy to the left of the scoreboard.  If he raises his arm, it's a curveball."   Rosen sees the sign, hits the pitch for a single, and as he rounds first base, thinks, "No wonder they hit so well up here..,."

by Ducts on the Pawn on Aug 1, 2005 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Uh...huh?
Not sure I get your point. Just because it's baseball doesn't mean it's not a witch hunt. I'm not making a judgment call on whether steroids is all that bad, I'm just saying that people are hunting witches because they think taking steroids is all that bad.

My definition of a witch hunt is a group of people suspecting another group of people of committing a wrong, simply because a few other people within that group have been convicted of committing the same wrong. Maybe that defintion isn't correct, but...

This is DEFINITELY a witch hunt.

by Dog Days on Aug 1, 2005 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Easy way for Miggy to defend himself...
..or any player for that matter. Independent drug test.

Until Sosa, Bonds, Giambi, Tejada, and anyone else who muscled up and hits ungodly long shots come clean, they'll always be suspected of cheating.

What's wrong is not the suspicion. What's wrong is that it always seems to be well-grounded.

Plenty of players have admitted to using roids. Plenty have tested positive. But who has ever taken an independent test to prove they're drug-free?

by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2005 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wait a minute
you're saying that Miguel Tejada has some kind of obligation to "defend himself" because you think he does? You're saying that because you (and others) suspect that he took illegal drugs, he should go and take an independent drug test whose results would be challenged by most of those that suspect him anyway unless they said he was cheating? If he took that test and it said he was clean, many people would say it was bunk, and that it wasn't on the up and up: either he cheated but masked it, or the test was a sham.

Why should he take any tests just to appease those out to prove he's anything but clean?? To appease people who accuse him of something on message boards, despite the fact they have no evidence that he did anything wrong?

Seriously...that's not a very good idea. Why would he do anything like that?

by Dog Days on Aug 1, 2005 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There's no obligation at all.
But if he doesn't want people to wonder about his drug use (or otherwise), that's the easy way to stop the rumors.

I know that if someone accused me of drug use, I wouldn't have a problem peeing in a cup for anyone to prove they were wrong.

But then again... I'm not using drugs...

by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2005 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And another thing
When did Tejada hit ungodly long shots?

You're lumping him in with guys who did muscle up and acquire seemingly inhuman power. Tejada simply doesn't belong in that group.

by Dog Days on Aug 1, 2005 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, I have
and there was never a year where he came in with that Jason Giambi/Mark McGwire "whoa, who ate him" look about him?

I just don't think there's a very strong case that Tejada used steroids. Maybe I'm wrong, but as I said before, I'll need a smoking gun to convince me that he did.

by Dog Days on Aug 1, 2005 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Long Ball!
This years All-Star game for one. Didn't he win the Homer contest at last years All-star game?

by Graybeard on Aug 1, 2005 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes
I thought of that, too, but I don't think it's too hard to believe that a guy like Tejada has the ability to jack a bunch of pitches thrown right down the middle at optimum speed for hitting the ball out of the ball park. Throw in the fact that he's right handed and was hitting at the Juice Box (Minute Maid Park), a ballpark renowned for having a short porch in left field, and it's not hard to believe he could win that contest.

But he did hit some deeeeeeep shots that were a bit surprising, yes. He did demonstrate some pretty amazing power. Maybe it was not natural; I choose to believe that it was.

by Dog Days on Aug 1, 2005 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

in the NBA
pothead Portland point guard Damon Stoudamire challenged a local reporter to give him a drug test, I don't think the reporter took up the offer.  That's probably as close as a pro athlete has come to a voluntary, face-saving drug test.
Rock over London, Rock on Oakland. Wheaties: It's the Breakfast of Champions.

by Cutthemullet on Aug 1, 2005 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We don't know
What raffy got caught using.  The suspension notice from MLB says:

Orioles first baseman Rafael Palmeiro was suspended Monday for 10 days by Major League Baseball for violating its Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment Program and will begin serving the suspension immediately

The drug testing policy covers more than just steroids.  On the ESPN MLB front page it says:

Rafael Palmeiro vociferously stated in March that he never used steroids. But on Monday, he was suspended 10 days for testing positive for steroids. He continues to deny steroid use.

So either ESPN has some extra information or they decided to add a slant to the story which is not true.  If the later I'm thinking Mr. Palmiero will have a big lawsuit coming ESPN's way.

by skwid on Aug 1, 2005 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Has anyone caught Canseco
 on "The Surreal Life"?? He's actually really funny. Possibly one of my favorite people in the house. If you're ever flipping channels, I recommend it. You'll believe a few more things he says. And this (sadly) just proves it.

by ChaBinsky on Aug 1, 2005 11:21 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah
he really funny on that. did you see the onw where he was wearing knee high stockings? How about those for high socks?
No, I do not want to FIRE MACHA NOW, nor do I think Blanton is fat. Now leave me alone.

by pbruins92 on Aug 1, 2005 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

haha! that was awesome
I especially liked that he stored his chapstick in them. ;)

by ChaBinsky on Aug 1, 2005 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Before condemning Palmiero...
It's also true that many over-the-counter supplements contain ingredients which will test positive for steroids. One team, I think I read it was the Minnesota Twins, actually gives out pre-tested supplements to avoid the danger. This doesn't excuse Palmiero, who should have known better (if indeed he's telling the truth now) than to take risky supplements, but it does explain his statement.

by richwol on Aug 1, 2005 11:24 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Riiiight.
Here's the thing - if you're an Olympic swimmer, you're given a list of HUNDREDS of substances you can't take. If you don't do due diligence on what you put in your body and you are found with one of those substances in your blood stream - it doesn't matter whether you did it deliberately or not, you're gone for a year - minimum.

Raffy is being paid millions of dollars a year. He knows full well what it legal and what isn't. If there's ever any doubt, all he has to do is call a club physician, or a trainer, or an MD and ask.

He got busted, and no amount of 'but I didn't know' will ever remove the label of 'cheat' from his back.

by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2005 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed!
Couldn't have said it better myself.

by griswold00 on Aug 1, 2005 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Blah!
Blah Blah Blah!

by Graybeard on Aug 1, 2005 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Addendum: MLB should rigorously check out both
Miggy and Roberts, Palmiero's teammates with substantial power surges, to see if they are juicing.

BTW, blackpearl raises an interesting question of whether Palmiero could be indicted for perjuring himself before Congress. I could be in error on this, but prosecutors would have to find evidence to prove that Raffy was using steroids prior to his Congressional testimony (doubtless, the evidence is out there--the question is, whether or not investigators could find it).

by reztips on Aug 1, 2005 11:25 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Roberts has had the most enviable
line-up spot in the game this year, which would explain his numbers (would you rather pitch to mora, miggy, sammy, palmeiro, lopez....?)

Guess Byrnes has it too now (Fantasy alert).

Baseball is a soap opera that lends itself to probabilistic thinking. -D. Cramer

by captainamerica on Aug 1, 2005 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

substantial power surge?
when did Tejada have a substantial power surge??

Come on! At least be intellectually honest here.

by Dog Days on Aug 1, 2005 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

we may have a problem of semantics
But Miggy hit 34 HRS in his first 1057 ABS-- 1 in 31 ABs

Starting in 2000-- which was a year after the Bonds "surge" began-- he hit 122 HRS in his next 2527 ABs as an A-- 1 in 21 ABs

That's a big difference, and perhaps a surge, but it also true that a lot of players experience such a jump in their 3rd or 4th year.

Who can ever know? We're all guessing.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Aug 1, 2005 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i'm not saying tejada's clean or not
but that's not really a surprising surge for a maturing player

by blueconversechucks on Aug 1, 2005 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Once upon a time it was.
That it no longer is, is quite damning in my opinion.

by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2005 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Where's your data?
Tejada seems to have followed a similar path through history. Where is your data to support the claim that "once upon a time it was, but that it no longer is.."??

by Dog Days on Aug 1, 2005 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Okay. Before 1990...
Over a century of professional baseball, only 17 players had ever hit more than 50 homeruns in a season.

Since 1990, another 19 have hit that mark. More than double the entire previous history of the game, in just 15 seasons.

--

Before 1998, nobody had ever hit more than 61 home runs - a mark considered nigh untouchable for the best part of the 20th century.

Since 1998, it's been passed 6 times, and each season that it has been surpassed, it's been passed by not one, but two players.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hihr4.shtml

There's your empiric evidence.

by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2005 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is correct
No one can look at these statistics and not draw the same conclusion as our good Oz.

[sigh] All of the homer records that beat Maris just aren't records.  Far too tainted.

by paradox on Aug 1, 2005 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It is correct, no doubt
we all remember the year (1998) that 50 home runs became the new 40 home runs. I remember how amazed I was when McGwire and Dawson both hit 49 in 1987, since nobody had done it in nearly 10 years. Then, all of a sudden in the mid 90s, guys like Greg Vaughn and Brady Anderson are hitting 50 in one year. No doubt about it - the home run was devalued in the 1990s, most likely due to steroid abuse.

by Dog Days on Aug 1, 2005 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oz's contention
Now wait a minute... that's good evidence that home runs are up, but it's still a long leap to insist that's all due to steroids.  There's still
  1.  Smaller ballparks
  2.  Weight training
  3.  No fear of striking out
  4.  Making Sports Center ("Chicks dig the long ball")
  5.  Willingness to go deep the other way.  (I believe it was Bill James who said something like "People thought that players going from aluminum bats to wood would learn that they can't go deep to the opposite field, but in fact they learned that they could."
There's probably more.

by achiappanza on Aug 1, 2005 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh yeah, I just thought of more..
  1.  Games started being played in Denver
  2.  The ball.  Remember all those pitchers talking about how the ball's seams are lower and that you can't get the skin to move at all any more?

by achiappanza on Aug 1, 2005 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget...
#8.  Free Agency.  More money = the ability to work on baseball all year round.  Before the 70s ballplayers usually had to have jobs in the offseason.
#9.  Better nutrition.  We've learned a lot about how to make ourselves bigger, faster, and stronger.  Not all of these mechanisms are illegal.

by sfodoug on Aug 1, 2005 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How does that deal with Tejada?
I'm only talking about Tejada here. So...maybe it's a moot point, since I wasn't clear that all I'm talking about is one player who now dons the cap of the Baltimore Orioles. Here are his career HR totals, far from breaking with the historical precedent you reference. For clarity's sake, I completely agree with you about the prevalence of the HR in the 90's. There's no denying that it was a historical spike, one that seems easily explained by cheating. So here's Miggy (sorry for my sloppy formatting):

Year   ABs  HRs
1997   99   2
1998   365  11
1999   593  21
2000   607  30
2001   622  31
2002   662  31
2003   636  27
2004   653  34
2005   421  22

Nothing in there suggests to me that he's done anything unnatural. In fact, since 2000 (his third year in the leage), he's been very consistent in the HR department. As you aptly point out, the 50 HR barrage of the 90s was truly unique in the history of the game. As you see here, Mr. Tejada has never threatened the 50 HR mark.

by Dog Days on Aug 1, 2005 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

but his 2004 HR derby barrage...
I think he was juiced for that weekend alone, heh
Rock over London, Rock on Oakland. Wheaties: It's the Breakfast of Champions.

by Cutthemullet on Aug 1, 2005 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

ha!
i got an idea - let's see if anybody has tracked batting practice statistics throughout his career and compare them to that HR Derby. We'll need somebody who has kept records of the number of HRs hit and the length of them, adjusted for ballpark factors, naturally.

by Dog Days on Aug 1, 2005 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Palmeiro's statement:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/bal-palmeiro01,1,4434773.story?coll=bal-sports-baseball& amp;ctrack=1&cset=true

"I am sure you will ask how I tested positive for a banned substance.  As I look back, I don't have a specific answer to give.  Unfortunately, I wasn't able to explain to the arbitrator how the banned substance entered my body.  The arbitrator did not find that I used a banned substance intentionally - in fact, he said he found my testimony to be compelling - but he ruled that I could not meet the heavy burden imposed on players who test positive under the new drug policy."

by ArakSOT on Aug 1, 2005 11:25 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

"Intentionally" is a word...
...through which you could drive a fleet of trucks.  Baseball needs to enforce strict liability for steroid use (and not look to intent).  If "I don't know how it got there," "my trainer lied to me," and "the label didn't say steroids," are excuses, players will be encouraged to preserve their ignorance about what goes into their bodies.  Beyond being dangerous to their health, this promotes cheating.  Players will ask, with a Monty Python nudge nudge wink wink, "this isn't steroids, right?"  So long as there's money to be made, they'll get the answer they want.
"I'm a lexicon devil with a battered brain."--Darby Crash

by lexdevil on Aug 1, 2005 11:29 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

When?
When exactly did he test positive?  Was it while he was chasing 3,000 and MLB held it?  Seems a little suspect that 2 weeks after his 3,000th hit, he gets snagged and not beforehand.  
Signatures? We don't need no stinking signatures.

by jubjub on Aug 1, 2005 11:31 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The timing IS a little suspicious.
Best Coliseum promotion of the year? 2005 Oakland A's baseball.

by baseballgirl on Aug 1, 2005 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

this is after the appeal.
so probably about two months ago.
let's go oakland [clapclap clapclapclap]

the a's fan lj community.

by Jjjsixsix on Aug 1, 2005 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

well,
it said in the apology, right?
let's go oakland [clapclap clapclapclap]

the a's fan lj community.

by Jjjsixsix on Aug 1, 2005 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow
I guess I should read more carefully.

Thanks. :)

by Jennifer on Aug 1, 2005 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes
but from my understanding you have to serve the suspension immediately.

Juan Rincon provided his testimony July 26th.

"How much room do I have to cover out here?" -- Kotsay

by Sharon on Aug 1, 2005 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, but this one
went to an independent abritrator. Palmeiro fought this tooth and nail behind the scenes, because he knew the effect it would have on his legacy.

by Dog Days on Aug 1, 2005 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

and the day after the HOF ceremony.
Selig obvously held it up for a while.
oaktoon

by oaktoon on Aug 1, 2005 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

definitely
There was even a rumor at the start of the season that a big name had tested positive.

Sanchez and Rincon aren't the big news-makers like Palmeiro.

"How much room do I have to cover out here?" -- Kotsay

by Sharon on Aug 1, 2005 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I got over the sadness a long time ago
I suspected Mac and Sosa in 1998-- how could you not?-- but like millions of others, i suppose, buried the suspicions in favor of a great story.

Bonds made it too obvious. and Giambi was obvious in retrospect. And the home run numbers-- baseball's deal with the devil-- were absurd for about 5-6 years.

And once BALCO hit, I was pissed off, but hardly sad. The innoncence departed a long time ago.

Now I'm more glad that a BSer like Palmeiro (that's what Will Clark's been saying for, like, 20 years) got nailed.

If there's any innocence, it's in our Little Engine That Could story. But no one should assume we have a bunch of choirboys to root for.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Aug 1, 2005 11:34 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I Agree
There's no way my estimation of those in charge of the game could be any lower than it's already gotten.  It's sad that a player who otherwise seemed like a fairly decent guy proves to be a user, but organized baseball created a world in which the incentives to use were enormous. That shouldn't let the users off the hook, but ultimately the blame for all this belongs squarely in the commissioner's office.

As for baseball itself, it's a great game -- the greatest game -- despite what those in charge of MLB have been doing to it.  It will survive. It's nice that external pressure is forcing those in charge of the game to behave slightly more responsibly.  We can only hope that some day the sport gets more thoughtful and responsible custodians.

by GreenNGoldSooner on Aug 1, 2005 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i think the players union
and the commissioner's office are equally to blame.

by blueconversechucks on Aug 1, 2005 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fair Enough
On many issues, I think the player's union is right and the commissioner's office is wrong (that is, I'd rather see the players rather than the owners end up with the sport's windfall profits).

But on this issue I totally agree with you: both are equally to blame.

by GreenNGoldSooner on Aug 1, 2005 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I mean...
How about cheaper beer, hot dogs, peanuts.
Cheaper tickets(though the A's aren't bad)
Fans would go to more games and spend more money on shirts and memorabilia.
I love baseball, so I pay.
But, I really find the salaries of players and the profits of owners to be on the high side for getting to be a part of the great game of baseball.
Oh, and here is another idea. Pay the venders, the people who clean the park and the security etc. more, too.

by Mz K on Aug 1, 2005 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Raffy's Chances
I seriously didn't think his chances were that strong to begin with.  Every argument for his induction was..."well his numbers are similar to other HOFers."

This won't end his career, for proof look across the bay and see Alex Sanchez, but his HOF chances are dead.

Baseball's already been soiled; see the Black Sox, the exclusion of Black players, Pete Rose, BALCO.  It doesn't look good for the sport, but hey, Baseball has been through this before.

"so what was it? the pork chop or the booty???" -rly723

by secret ASian man on Aug 1, 2005 11:37 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Black Sox scandal
The fallout from that was that Judge Kennesaw M Landis became commissioner, and he was a bigot and racist who worked to ensure no black player got even close to a major league club.

Interestingly, I think it was Bill Veeck, during WWII, who was going to buy the Phillies and stock the entire club with black players for the 1944 season.  But it got discovered and blocked.

by Ducts on the Pawn on Aug 1, 2005 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

interesting
didn't know about the Veeck plan, wow what a firestorm that would've created.
Rock over London, Rock on Oakland. Wheaties: It's the Breakfast of Champions.

by Cutthemullet on Aug 1, 2005 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow I wonder about Jason now????
He's had a remarkable turnaround of late.

Is he back to his old ways?

Or has he overcome the muscle stiffness and is seeing the ball and giving it more lift.

Pulling the ball to the short porch in Yankee Stadium for all those Homeruns?

I don't know, you would like to think he's not that stupid.

But, about two monthes ago the Yanks were looking for any takers on him.

They were even thinking of send him down or even releasing him.

by Mike Heath on Aug 1, 2005 11:41 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

still unclaimed in 3/4 of my fantasy leagues.
and noone wants to pick him up either.

i honestly believe that he's not on anything and that he's not that stupid. BUT... numbers don't lie, and his numbers are a bit too good to be true.
then again, he hasn't bulked up much again.

come to your own conclusion.

let's go oakland [clapclap clapclapclap]

the a's fan lj community.

by Jjjsixsix on Aug 1, 2005 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I actually believe Giambi is clean
He is under pretty close scrutiny now.
independencefieldsac.org
Please help disabled kids in Sacramento play baseball by helping the Rivercats build a specially equipped field for them.

by kaweahkaweah on Aug 1, 2005 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought that ...
... once he stopped taking steroids, his scrutiny stopped shrinking ...
It's tough out there, Pootie. You got drugs ... crime ... gorillas ...

by monkeyball on Aug 1, 2005 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Learning to fly
I think he started the year with a plan to change his hitting approach, assuming that being clean meant he couldn't hit the old way.  Then he found he couldn't hit the new way, so now he's gone back to the old way.

Lo and behold buddy.  You didn't need those 'roids after all.

by achiappanza on Aug 1, 2005 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Old Way is Way Dope
It is my understanding that the roids he had access to before are STILL undetectable in urine test.  Yellowman to MLB,,, why not test for the designer stuff.  Yellowman to Palmeiro,,, you can afford the designer stuff.

2K5 Month -> BA -> HR
April -> .224 -> 3
May   -> .241 -> 1
June  -> .310 -> 1
July  -> .355 -> 14

Giambi is known for a lot of things like Steroids, In-N-Out Burger, & Tatts.... but never being streaky.

by yellowman on Aug 2, 2005 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Everybody's thinking this, Mike Heath
but I just do not believe it. He had that tumor last year, he was demoralized, felt like he was dying...why would he do that to himself again?

He's the only one, by all accounts, that had the stones to admit that he cheated in front of the grand jury, and he's the one who came out and apologized for it (albeit without admitting why he was apologizing). I think he's done with it. I think he's just found his groove again, he's confident, and the ball is flying out of the yard. He is in the middle of a murderer's row lineup and has always been a good hitter - juice or no juice. It's not too hard for me to believe that he's gone on a power surge because he's seeing the ball well. Call me naive, and I'll call you cynical..and neither of us will know the truth!

It's just another sad day in baseball.

by Dog Days on Aug 1, 2005 11:46 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I think the whole "The Sport is Soiled"
Thing, Is completely overblown... I may be in the minority but I already knew lots of players were taking steroids and it does nothing to lessen my affinity towards the game..

Sure it diminishes the value of certain players numbers but to me thats it.. Baseball is such a team sport I cant say Steriods spoiled any teams accomplishments... If any team it would probably the Bash Brother A's right??

The bottom line to me is that artificially inflated numbers over the last 15-20 years do not tarnish the game of baseball.. but thats just my view

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Aug 1, 2005 11:47 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree
I don't think it is really diminished.
People at -any- major league level are going to try to get an edge.  The only real problem is 17-yr-olds who don't have a hope of playing ML ball, but take a ton of crrrappp and permanently ruin their life.
Or die.

In the 1903 World Series, the crowd was held back by a rope along the foul lines.  If a Pirate hit  a double down the line, the crowd backed up, giving the Red Sox player plenty of room to retrieve the ball.  If the Pirate right-fielder was after a Red Sox hit, the crowd hugged the foul line, and he had to "swim" through the crowd to retrieve the ball!!

Is that "fair" or un"fair"?  Is that WS tainted??

by Ducts on the Pawn on Aug 1, 2005 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not Much Correlation between MLB and HS
Steriod use... when I was in high school.. plenty of people I knew were using all kinds of crap I had never heard of... and absolutely 0 of them thought they had a chance of playing at the highest level..

To me its just players wanting to get whatever "edge" is possible.. if they arent going to get caught.. they are going to do it.. its sad but true and it starts around 14 years old.

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Aug 1, 2005 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unfair and tainted.
Because it's cheating.

Sure, we've known for years that there were people using roids in the majors, but that doesn't make it 'baseball'.

How many WS games were lost by those that deserved to win, when a deep pop fly got over the wall on the strength of a steriod shot?

How many pitchers who should have been grabbing easy outs instead watched their careers die as the ball left the yard?

And most importantly, how many of our children also knew these guys were on roids, and decided to give them a try?

Steroid users are filth. They should never be acceptable to anyone who considers himself a fan of the game, because they destroy the one thing over the last century-plus that has been a constant - the integrity of the scoreline.

by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2005 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No sport,
or profession for that matter is "pure"

And dont forget pitchers took/take the juice also

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Aug 1, 2005 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're kind of selling my point for me.
Does that make it better to you that pitchers also juice?

I've spoken to pitchers in single-A ball who are annoyed that they can't use steroids in the minors, because "I took all sorts of stuff in college and it never hurt me at all."

That's why this is a problem. You ahve a whole generation of kids who know that, without steroids, they're unlikely to make it.

Only catch is, with steroids, they're likely to fall off the mound and have a heart attack at 32.

by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2005 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Professional Sports are what they are
A Bunch of guys doing what they can to produce, win games and make money...

You cant expect professional athletes to live a higher standard of life than normal "every day people"

Businesses cheat to inflate earnings, College Sports cheat in recruiting, you'd be hard pressed to find ANYTHING that is "pure"

So when watching a baseball game or any game for that matter what I do is dismiss everything that is going on in players lives and focus on what happens on the Diamond..

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Aug 1, 2005 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't.
Namely because... uh... steroid use is ILLEGAL!

It's not just cheating the rules of baseball, it's a crime, man.

by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2005 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's like saying
that because robberies and homicides take place, we should shut down all police departments. Huh? Why should anyone object to cleaning up baseball? If there's bad stuff going on outside of baseball, why don't we clean that up too, instead of using that as a pretext to excuse baseball's sins?

And I don't know what inference is to be drawn when people cite the bad behavior in the old days. So what? Since players behaved badly in the past, does that provide a hall pass to bad behavior in the present? Hey! Did you know that slavery used to be legal in this country?

When I was in college, I was shocked when a friend of mine asked me to help him cheat on an exam. I think I underestimate how many people there are whose only qualm about cheating on a test is the risk of getting caught. For these people, I can understand why their attitude toward pumping things like hydrochloritestosterone into their body is one of, "What's the big deal?"

(Sorry, Duby, I don't mean to bust your chops. I just felt like venting.)

Let us not continue to debate how many Angels can be dashed on the head of a pin. Let's just get to it while the gettin' is good.

by Checkswing HR on Aug 1, 2005 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't Change
Harden = Canadian for "Effin' awesome, eh?" -jlaff

by tmail on Aug 1, 2005 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Zero tolerance
The argument that "everybody does it so its okay" is bogus. The league should adopt an immediate one year ban and lifetime suspension for 2nd offence.

by Graybeard on Aug 1, 2005 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

George Bush is still in denial
After Jose said he must have known before, today he is still denying it.  

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said President Bush considers Palmeiro "a friend and he believes him" when he says he never intentionally took steroids.

by theblackpearl on Aug 1, 2005 11:49 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

'Course Bush also thought that he could convince
the American public that Iraq had WMD. Alas, plenty of yokels bought it. And if they believe Bush about WMD, they are likely to believe that Palmeiro, Barroid, and McGwire were not juiced...

by reztips on Aug 1, 2005 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Joe Sheehan on Baseball Prospectus
"...mostly I hope that this doesn't merely become another torch in the witch hunt. I hope that we find out the truth, rather than simply letting the desire for another head on another pitchfork drive a surface discussion of the matter and more page views. Regardless of whether you think steroids are the worst thing to happen to baseball since game-fixing, or an overrated problem in a media environment that devours flawed heroes, you have to believe that the game is best served by nothing less than the truth."
Baseball is a soap opera that lends itself to probabilistic thinking. -D. Cramer

by captainamerica on Aug 1, 2005 11:50 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

i hate to say i told you so....
wait, actually, i don't.  i told you so.  

you have to read between the lines.  there were quotes from both stew and rickey in the local papers that pretty much said "canseco is telling the truth" but in a roundabout way, because they obviously don't want to be blacklisted like he has been.

those who had their heads in the sand the whole time, what do you think now?

devo?

If I weren't playing baseball, I'd be... "in the Ultimate Fighting Championship." -Rich Harden

by xbhaskarx on Aug 1, 2005 11:54 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

found it
i love having the ability to search on AN...

http://www.athleticsnation.com/story/2005/2/7/143530/6558

from the chronicle:
However, ex-A's pitcher Dave Stewart wouldn't say Canseco's accusations weren't true.

"I could never say 'Josie' is a liar," Stewart said. "I don't like his work ethic, and I don't like him as a teammate. But one thing I can't say about him is he's a liar.

"As far as what Josie's saying, I can't deny it or verify it. I'm not going to pretend it didn't happen because I don't know. We weren't in the same circles, but I'd have to say he definitely knows what's going on in his circle. Nobody I associated with on the team was a steroid user (among the players Stewart mentioned: Lansford, Rickey Henderson, Dave Henderson and Dennis Eckersley).

"If this is all made up, he'll suffer some serious damages. But if you're an admitted steroid user, believe me, you'd know who uses them."

from another article in the chronicle:
For the record, though, none of the reporters who went to Barnes & Noble initiated the steroid talk. Canseco did that himself, hollering to Rickey Henderson's in-laws as they walked away from the table with three signed books: "That's one of the players who's not on steroids."

Rosalind Ono said she and her husband, Ed, lined up outside the store at 4 p.m. to see their son-in-law's former teammate. They entered first, with a cell phone connected to Henderson in Phoenix. They handed the phone to Canseco, who talked for a short time and then signed one of the Onos' books especially for Henderson: "To a great player, a friend."

The Onos stopped to talk to the media and vouched for the author. "One thing Rickey said is Jose does not lie," Rosalind Ono said.

Several of his former teammates have said the same thing, although La Russa has vilified the man he managed during their glorious run in Oakland. Determined to protect the legacy of McGwire, who also played for La Russa when he broke the single-season home run record with St. Louis, the manager has said that Canseco had to resort to steroids because he wasn't willing to work hard enough.

If I weren't playing baseball, I'd be... "in the Ultimate Fighting Championship." -Rich Harden

by xbhaskarx on Aug 1, 2005 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"Time it was...
...and what a time it was, it was a time of innocence, a time of confidences.  Long ago, it must be, I have a photograph..."

"I'm a lexicon devil with a battered brain."--Darby Crash

by lexdevil on Aug 1, 2005 11:58 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

WOW, Giambi's arms are smaller than mine
in this picture.
I gotta get on the juice.......
Now THIS is Billy Ball

by Masaryk on Aug 1, 2005 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i think i could have
beat him up
If I weren't playing baseball, I'd be... "in the Ultimate Fighting Championship." -Rich Harden

by xbhaskarx on Aug 1, 2005 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Alien?
Remember the last Alien movie where Ripley was grown in a tube with the Alien inside it?  remember the half alien/half human thing with the weird nose at the end?  It looks exactly like that picture of Giambi.  
Signatures? We don't need no stinking signatures.

by jubjub on Aug 1, 2005 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is it just me...
...or does Giambi look like David Eckstein in that picture?
AN Member Location Surveys: Results | Take part

by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Aug 1, 2005 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I always believed Canseco
He never appeared to be lying and look at who he named:

Juan Gonzalez- gets hurt every AB
Ivan Rodriguez - Mysteriously 30 pounds skinnier and looking like a 15 year old
Mark McGwire - already made a fool of himself

and now Palmiero

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Aug 1, 2005 11:59 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

exactly
canseco may be a scumbag, but that's not the same thing as being a liar.
If I weren't playing baseball, I'd be... "in the Ultimate Fighting Championship." -Rich Harden

by xbhaskarx on Aug 1, 2005 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who would want to lie
About stuffing needles in other mans asses anyways??
A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Aug 1, 2005 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

good point
and as "jrbh" (the original eeyore on AN back when oaktoon was still in preschool) said in the diary i linked to above:

Canseco apparently...
...says he slept with hundreds of women, but not Madonna. Someone had to not do it.

If I weren't playing baseball, I'd be... "in the Ultimate Fighting Championship." -Rich Harden

by xbhaskarx on Aug 1, 2005 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

whatever happend to jrbh?
"How much room do I have to cover out here?" -- Kotsay

by Sharon on Aug 1, 2005 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

happenEd
:(
"How much room do I have to cover out here?" -- Kotsay

by Sharon on Aug 1, 2005 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

who did we get?
"How much room do I have to cover out here?" -- Kotsay

by Sharon on Aug 1, 2005 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Poster to be named later
There is no such thing as a posting prospect

by ArakSOT on Aug 1, 2005 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

so we just dumped him?
"How much room do I have to cover out here?" -- Kotsay

by Sharon on Aug 1, 2005 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We're just numbers here.
We root for the blog, not the poster.

by Jennifer on Aug 1, 2005 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

hey, I'm not complaining.
I just want to know if we could have swindled some poor blog out there.
"How much room do I have to cover out here?" -- Kotsay

by Sharon on Aug 1, 2005 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

is he...[dundundun]
the guy at patheticsnation?
let's go oakland [clapclap clapclapclap]

the a's fan lj community.

by Jjjsixsix on Aug 1, 2005 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

no, that's tokyooak
these beane-haters always go crazy after a little while....
If I weren't playing baseball, I'd be... "in the Ultimate Fighting Championship." -Rich Harden

by xbhaskarx on Aug 1, 2005 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

he's toiling away in some
devil rays AA blog...
If I weren't playing baseball, I'd be... "in the Ultimate Fighting Championship." -Rich Harden

by xbhaskarx on Aug 1, 2005 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

jrbh
i stopped seeing posts from him right about when the whole sportsblogs thing took off for blez, so maybe that was it.

he was already pretty disgruntled though, i think he mentioned getting rid of his season tickets.  he didn't seem to be a big beane fan.  

i believe he was the original "a's will win 60 games and finish in last place" guy, long before ratto, may oaktoon, etc.
now that the a's are about to win their 60th game, i doubt we'll ever hear from him again.

it's probably for the better, because i don't think he could deal with the concept of "no politics" and "no personal attacks"

he was at AN day 1.0 so maybe he has tickets for version 2.0??
sometimes i kind of miss his pessimism and bitterness...

If I weren't playing baseball, I'd be... "in the Ultimate Fighting Championship." -Rich Harden

by xbhaskarx on Aug 1, 2005 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

imagine jrbh in May...
...<gulp>
"How much room do I have to cover out here?" -- Kotsay

by Sharon on Aug 1, 2005 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh man, i'd rather not imagine it
if you don't mind...
If I weren't playing baseball, I'd be... "in the Ultimate Fighting Championship." -Rich Harden

by xbhaskarx on Aug 1, 2005 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think May jrbh
would've joined us on the killing spree.

by Jennifer on Aug 1, 2005 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

hmmm...
I wonder if he would have hated us for the "chick talk" on AN.
"How much room do I have to cover out here?" -- Kotsay

by Sharon on Aug 1, 2005 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Holy crap
I was just typing this:

I take that back.

I don't think he'd like the ass talk and would be trying to kill us.

by Jennifer on Aug 1, 2005 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

While wearing sad-clown makeup?
It's tough out there, Pootie. You got drugs ... crime ... gorillas ...

by monkeyball on Aug 1, 2005 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So glad
he's gone.

by Reg on Aug 1, 2005 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

jrbh couldn't handle the criticism on AN and slunk
back to OAFC of which he is a charter member. Remember, everyone at OAFC moves to the same drumbeat...

by reztips on Aug 1, 2005 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reading this thread
is rather sad.

jrbh hasn't posted on AN for 3 1/2 months, and still we have people blasting him.

And then someone wonders why he's gone?

by bear88 on Aug 1, 2005 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

JRBH
I'll bet jrbh left because Schott and Hoffmann ended up selling the team. It seemed his sole purpose in life was to bash Schott and Hoffmann, that when a new owner actually came along, he just sort of drifted away and was never heard of again.

by OaktownTribesman on Aug 1, 2005 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

come on, bear88, that's complete nonsense
i brought up jrbh because i was quoting him and actually agreeing with him (scary but true: he and i were pretty much on the same page regarding canseco and the steroid allegations).  

THAT is how he came up.  then sharon wondered what happened to him.  it was pretty innocent, not like random jrbh bashing after 3 1/2 months...

If I weren't playing baseball, I'd be... "in the Ultimate Fighting Championship." -Rich Harden

by xbhaskarx on Aug 1, 2005 6:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

xbhaskarx
There was nothing wrong with your original comment, and I understand the thread started with Sharon's questions about what happened to jrbh.  But it degenerated a bit from there, culminating in the usual personal attacks from some of his old antagonists, complete with references to his alleged posts on another site.

jrbh was one of the "old-timers" on the site, whose pungent commentary added to the entertaining mix back then.  He strongly defended baseballgirl last year after a woman complained that she was too loud at last year's AN Day.

I have never liked attacks and mockery, especially when the target is not even around to respond.  jrbh could give as good as he got, although I always thought the hostility aimed at him seemed excessive and oddly personal.

 

by bear88 on Aug 1, 2005 11:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

agreed
as i said above:
"sometimes i kind of miss his pessimism and bitterness..."

there's no question he was entertaining, and pretty knowledgeable as well, plus you have to respect anyone who, as you say, could give as good as he got.

If I weren't playing baseball, I'd be... "in the Ultimate Fighting Championship." -Rich Harden

by xbhaskarx on Aug 2, 2005 12:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even months after S&H sold the A's, jbhk
continued to knock them on OAFC, thereby getting high fives from all the perenially bitter whiners on that site who en masse loath S&H, BB, Macha, TLR and salivate over every move by the OAFC Queen's hero, Card Sharp Rickey...

by reztips on Aug 1, 2005 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting
If that's true, his writing style is very different on that site.

by Reg on Aug 2, 2005 6:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, Reg, there is no need for jbhk to
get belligerent when everyone on that site moves their lamebrains to the very same beat...

Reg, jeffreyb is definitively, emphatically, jbhk. I've read his ridiculous, bitter posts for years and the authorship is unmistakably the same.

by reztips on Aug 2, 2005 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

jbhk or jrbh?
It says on the site that his name is Jeffrey Berchenko? Same person?

by Reg on Aug 5, 2005 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yet Pudge
still gets the occasional roid rage...

by blueconversechucks on Aug 1, 2005 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

At least nobody in Oakland has...
never mind.
http://www.myspace.com/glorysv

by Hit4TheCycle on Aug 1, 2005 12:12 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Cheating
Has and always will be a part of the game. I hate to say it, but it's true. If you can win in any way, do it. The problem is when you get caught. Now, I, as a fan, am really sad that baseball has simply come to steriods, steriods, and more steriods. Of course, many, many players use them to enhance performance...who wouldn't? Honestly. I agree, Blez, it's really sad to watch as a fan.

But no matter what all this crap about 'steriods' is, and most likely will be for years to come, I find it easier to just concentrate on the sheer beauty of the game itself - regardless of the fact its players are busy shooting themselves filled with drugs. That part, definitely, is shameful, but The Game is still being played.

And that, to me, is what counts.

by Squeaky on Aug 1, 2005 12:13 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

hear hear
to baseball!  clink
Change is for the better. For both the A's and in life.

by WhiteElephantGuy on Aug 1, 2005 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I told you so, too!!
http://www.athleticsnation.com/story/2005/3/26/183238/114#readmore

Actually, when he got his 3,000th hit last week, I was finally willing to relent and say, "let him into the Hall of Fame."  But this makes it easy not to let him in.  Sosa and McGwire and Bonds, assholes though they may be, performed at TOO HIGH A LEVEL to bypass Cooperstown--their accomplishments are too great.  But Palmeiro?  He was a borderline case, and this should absolutely end his chances.  The Orioles' meltdown continues.

"Every time he opens his mouth he makes a fool of himself," La Russa said. "He's a village idiot."

by rubin sierra on Aug 1, 2005 12:16 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yup
Bonds, McGwire, Sosa all should be in the HOF
A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Aug 1, 2005 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

how about "none of the above"
keep 'em all out of the hall.  
"everybody was doing it" is not a valid excuse...
If I weren't playing baseball, I'd be... "in the Ultimate Fighting Championship." -Rich Harden

by xbhaskarx on Aug 1, 2005 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bonds without Juice
is still an MVP Caliber player / one the best players in the game
A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Aug 1, 2005 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, well, too bad he took roids then
If I weren't playing baseball, I'd be... "in the Ultimate Fighting Championship." -Rich Harden

by xbhaskarx on Aug 1, 2005 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

True
but to me Bonds is clear cut..

Sosa and McGwire will probably still make it... and Palmiero has an outside shot..

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Aug 1, 2005 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

rose and shoeless joe
clear cut as well.  not in the HoF.  bonds, sosa, mcgwire, palmeiro, etc. can join that club of disgraced non-HoFers.
If I weren't playing baseball, I'd be... "in the Ultimate Fighting Championship." -Rich Harden

by xbhaskarx on Aug 1, 2005 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fixing baseball games is much more serious
then using performance enhancing drugs.. On top of that you cant punish him for something that is still yet to be proven.. Giambi was never suspended was he?

Regardless, I'm aware everyone hates Bonds cuz he plays for the Giants.. but he is the greatest hitter of my lifetime and CLEARLY belongs in the Hall of Fame

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Aug 1, 2005 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How can you even say that?
Fixing ball games (something neither Rose or Shoeless Joe have ever been proved to have done) is EXACTLY THE SAME as taking the juice.

Let's say that without the juice, Bonds can't stay healthy, has half the homerun pop, and spend a lot more time injured (like, say, he has this season).

Do the Giants make the World Series? Do they even make the play-offs?

How many games were won on Barry's homeruns? Take those away, and the Giants miss the playoffs - period.

Game-fixing is bad, but season-fixing is horrendous, and that's what steroids do.

by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2005 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If 10% of the MLB Players are on Juice
than you cant accurately assess the impact of 1 players juicing against anothers..

Sure it may look to YOU that San Fran made the World Series because of Balco, but in reality Bonds wasnt the only juicer.. just the Best player who was taking performing enhancing drugs.

its really not comparable..

Bonds is 1 man he controlled himself...

Rose & Jacson controlled ENTIRE teams..

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Aug 1, 2005 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No. They. Didn't.
Rose gambled on ballgames. There's never been any evidence to say he fixed them, or influenced them, or shaved points.

Shoeless Joe controlled nobody - he took money from shysters to throw the game, and then had the greatest playoff series of anyone on the team by a country mile.

If those two were banned from the game forever, I can't see how Raffy Palmeiro can be allowed back on the diamond in ten days time. Makes no sense, never will.

by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2005 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There is a diference
I would agree with your assessment of Rose and Jackson,but it can also be said of Rose that there is a warning posted in every locker that if you bet on baseball you will be banned for life.

On the other hand, I think the line for past steroid use is a little blury.  1) it was not against any baseball policey or rule until just recently.  2) If anything it improved the performance between the white lines it in no way compromised the decisions made on the field.  Rose made a bargain which sealed the evidence they had against him, but I think that the evidence showed he bet on games he was managing in (though probably on the Reds) I think that in of itself shows how the manager feels about the teams chances as well as his failure to bet on the team the next day or the day after.  It also calls into question certain decisions, wether it is resting certain starters using his top relievers to long etc.   3) I think Canseco is right that the majority if not all of the top players in the 90's were using steroids.  How do you devalue their careers or stats and why? is it diferent then othe supplements etc. ?

Also I would agree that baseball is getting bad press but I would bet that football and  basketball have a worse problem.

Bob

ogallalabob

by ogallalabob on Aug 1, 2005 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Depends on how you look at it...
When talking about fixing games, you're talking about people trying to lose. When talking about using steroids, you're talking about people trying to win (although not necessarily for the team).

Does fixing games hurt the credibility of the game? Absolutely. Does taking steroids hurt the credibility of the game? Not necessarily, because a team of all non-steroid users can beat a team of all steroid users. That's one of the reasons we love this game to begin with.

So for the sake of the game, in my opinion, fixing games is worse. We can punish and throw out players for steroid use, but baseball fans will watch the game because we know the product is pure competition and not like WWE.

If, for example, we found out that teams were intentionally losing to the A's all throughout the rest of this season so gamblers could make a huge amount of cash, however, we would be absolutely mortified, much more than Rafael Palmeiro or Jose Canseco could ever do to us.

AN Member Location Surveys: Results | Take part

by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Aug 1, 2005 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fixing games
Fixing games is nowhere nearly as serious as using steroids. I mean, the biggest consequences of fixing games is that gamblers might be losing money  or that some fans get to call their team "champs" or not. Nobody dies. People die from steroids. Kids watch their idols use steroids, and do the same, and can die. It's totally different.

by OaktownTribesman on Aug 1, 2005 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

mcgwire was
always a power hitter, and while 70 might be a stretch even for me, there is no doubting that he coulda hit 50 every year, without roids.  and he did.  its a shame he had such a bad back.  I hate bonds, and i know he did it, mcgwire did to.  There is no way sosa should have ever he more than 40 home runs in any year with out them.

What i don't like about this all, is how people think that this is a problem only with baseball.  Im sorry, but football has a much worse roids problem.

New point though.  Wasn't the whole point of BALCO that they were producing roids that could not be detected???  Isn't that the real problem?  because if baseball can detect them, the "problem" will subside, which would be great.  if baseball can't, then we are in deep water  

by jacobo2u on Aug 1, 2005 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

MLB testing is a joke.
Are they testing for human growth hormone?

Are they testing for masking agents that cover up steroid use?

Are they hell.

by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2005 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My understanding
is that they haven't been able to develop a test for HGH, yet.
Let us not continue to debate how many Angels can be dashed on the head of a pin. Let's just get to it while the gettin' is good.

by Checkswing HR on Aug 1, 2005 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cheaters
Cheaters are cheaters and should not be rewarded with immortal fame. No Macgwire, Bonds and Sousa.

by Graybeard on Aug 1, 2005 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Raffy
I agree that this is really sad. I feel, however, that there is such a cloud of secrecy covering the way the league is conducting the tests. Is there a list somewhere that one can view the "banned substances"? How clear is it to players what is allowed and what is not? Should the public be informed what the suspended player was cited for taking?

I hate it that we get these press releases simply saying "So and So has violated the policy" without any more information.

"He threw me a pitch I'd never seen before, Sexson said. The umpire asked me what it was, and I said, 'I don't know.' This guy throws ghost pitches.''

by Alien on Aug 1, 2005 12:17 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Check out
the Players' Association site:

http://mlbplayers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/pa/info/cba.jsp

They post the Collective Bargaining Agreement there.

Let us not continue to debate how many Angels can be dashed on the head of a pin. Let's just get to it while the gettin' is good.

by Checkswing HR on Aug 1, 2005 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Makes me wonder...
...if the Orioles bigwigs knew the suspension was coming. They DID pursue Phil Nevin pretty hard to play first - perhaps knowing Palmeiro was going to miss an important stretch with a reeling team holding on to some fading playoff hopes.

by Tornacious on Aug 1, 2005 12:20 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

They had to know
His appeal was denied they had to know he tested positive and was in the process of a worthless appeal, on the other hand a 10 game suspension is not that big of deal.
ogallalabob

by ogallalabob on Aug 1, 2005 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

O's are having a press conference
after the game (4-1 WSox in the 8th now), but I'm not expecting much information.

It'll be a better game when they all stop, but if Canseco's right about how widespead it is (now believing him) it's hard to fault guys' being tempted. Isn't it?

Baseball is a soap opera that lends itself to probabilistic thinking. -D. Cramer

by captainamerica on Aug 1, 2005 12:23 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Please tell me the MLB steroid policy
doesn't allow an "appeal process".  If it does, then excuse me while I laugh hysterically.
GO A's!!!

by AsGirl on Aug 1, 2005 12:26 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

it does.
and raffy exhausted it.
let's go oakland [clapclap clapclapclap]

the a's fan lj community.

by Jjjsixsix on Aug 1, 2005 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

<Laughing hysterically>
What's next?  They'll allow players to "appeal" after they kill someone?!
GO A's!!!

by AsGirl on Aug 1, 2005 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But he didn't mean it!
"Yeah, Officer, I have no idea how those drugs got in my car."

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky."

"We have good information that Saddam Hussein is trying to acquire yellow cake uranium from Africa."

Am I missing any?

A Beane in the hand is worth $60M in payroll

by jeepers on Aug 1, 2005 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

anybody....
besides me sort of sick of the all this steriod talk? First Giambi, now Palmeiro. I know it's bad, and I know it's stupid, but I'm kind of tired of hearing steriods at least once in most baseball conversations.

PS - I don't mean to sound all trollish. :(

by Squeaky on Aug 1, 2005 12:35 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm with you
It's a problem, but baseball has bigger problems.
A Beane in the hand is worth $60M in payroll

by jeepers on Aug 1, 2005 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Try telling that...
..to the parents of kids who have used steroids to try to compete, and died as a result.

by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2005 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Look....
I'm not saying it's not a big problem. I'm just saying it's a little tiring to hear it all the time. I hate steriods, and I really hate the fact kids think it really will help them. Honestly. Like I said, I'm just a little tired of the constant 'steriods, steriods, steriods' thing.

by Squeaky on Aug 1, 2005 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But there's a reason there's so much talk...
..and that it that it remains a problem.

Once MLB and the players clean up their act, we'll have no need to talk about it. Until they do, the only way they ever will is if we stay on it.

by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2005 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I get that
I agree with you, Hollywood. It needs to stop. But I  mentioned in another diary, cheating, in one way or another, is part of the game. It always has been. Drugs? Needs to be stopped. But cheating...it probably won't.

I was just wishing for a whole baseball discussion without "Who's on steriods now?" questions. It just seems to me that that isn't really possible right now.

by Squeaky on Aug 1, 2005 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not to sound cold
But how is that baseball's fault?  That sounds like the fault of some grossly negligent high school programs which should be prosecuted.
A Beane in the hand is worth $60M in payroll

by jeepers on Aug 1, 2005 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's baseball's fault because...
A) Steroid use is illegal. IE: against the law, not just the rules.

B) Steroid users know that millions of kids look up to them.

by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2005 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with point A
And when you do something illegal, it's YOUR fault.

And I agree that baseball should set a better example.  

Perhaps we both want the same thing.  I'm all for stiffer penalties.  50 games/1 year/forever works for me (I can't see an immediate lifelong ban because of the total lack of regulation of supplements in our country, which is even worse abroad).  I'd also like to see players who test positive referred for prosecution under the laws of their home state.

What annoys me about hearing "steroids" so much in the news is that it just seems like a bunch of posturing.  It's like I've been transported to the "Harumphing" scene in Blazing Saddles.  It's the same kind of thing that bothered me about the Michael Jackson trial.  A disproportionate amount of attention is being paid to it, and the wrong kind at that--it's all about who did what, not how to fix it.  Or in other words, it's about "Who's on the juice?", not how to fix the problem.

A Beane in the hand is worth $60M in payroll

by jeepers on Aug 1, 2005 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good points all.
Sadly, without the shiny spotlight and the salacious details, the law doesn't bother getting involved.

But seeing Raffy got to prison for breaking the law and taking steroids might have some serious consequences and right some very long-running wrongs.

If only the President wasn't claiming he's innocent, that is...

by Ozzz on Aug 1, 2005 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He still wants Raffy's checks to clear
He was a $2K donor to his campaign, as were A-Rod and Schilling.
A Beane in the hand is worth $60M in payroll

by jeepers on Aug 1, 2005 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
at least we know from yesterday's ANtics comic that Bobby Kielty isn't using any steroids or HGH.

by blueconversechucks on Aug 1, 2005 12:58 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, but I think he might be guilty of using...
...Miss Clairol.
"I'm a lexicon devil with a battered brain."--Darby Crash

by lexdevil on Aug 1, 2005 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just heard about it
Poor guy, of all the people to first inform me, Skip Bayless on the radio. Looks like Canseco was right abot Palmeiro, looks like he is right about Pudge as he lost weight and his HR numbers have gone down but that could be because of age.
You may have the greatest bunch of individual stars in the world, but if they don't play together, the club wont be worth a dime.-Babe Ruth

by doublehustle22 on Aug 1, 2005 1:02 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The Worst Aspect of the Current Steroid Scandal
is that thanks to the players' union, MLB does not give the only means to check for HGH (human growth hormone), blood testing. While not 100% definitive, blood testing can find most  excessive HGH in someone's system.

So players can chemically build themselves up with HGH and not worry about urine testing.

I'm upset because there goes my stock in the "Whizzinator."

Joking aside, this is a most serious matter as a good percentage of players who were juicing have doubtless moved on to taking HGH...

by reztips on Aug 1, 2005 1:25 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Why does everyone doubt Canseco?
He has always craved the spotloight. He has always been a jerk.  He drives too fast, and he backstabs his friends, sort of.  I say sort of because the people who he has backstabbed may never have been his friends.  He apparently doesn't ascribe to clubhouse ethical law. But Jose has always been smart, and he has always been honest.  His stutter, marital relationships and basic deviant behavior have caused the media to portray him as a criminal and a moron, but he is neither.  He is insecure and he is honest (just like Giambi has said) - anyone who believes he is a liar is clinging to their own false sense of reality.

by iceplant on Aug 1, 2005 1:33 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

You're half right
Not dumb, and certainly insecure.  But he can't shrug off being portrayed as a criminal.  He has the convictions to prove it.
A Beane in the hand is worth $60M in payroll

by jeepers on Aug 1, 2005 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok, I'll give you that ...
he's a criminal for carrying a gun, driving too fast, knocking his wife around and fighting with some other dirtbag at a bar.  There's some other stupid shit, too, I'm sure.  But he is still more of a jerk than a criminal (in reality, that is, if not by law).  But that's splitting hairs; you get my point, I think.

by iceplant on Aug 1, 2005 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

holy sh*t! did you just say
domestic violence is not a crime!?!!
Baseball is a soap opera that lends itself to probabilistic thinking. -D. Cramer

by captainamerica on Aug 1, 2005 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

After Pudge's
roid-rage on Saturday, I think Canseco is right about him as well.

by TheO4Ever on Aug 1, 2005 1:56 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...
and that dude got pretty small over the offseason.

And did anyone catch the lack of love between him and his son during the Home Run Derby? I caught what appeared to be Pudge snapping at the little guy a few times too. That poor kid kept looking at his dad like he was biggest prick in the world.

by Mark H on Aug 1, 2005 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The most pressing question of all
Will testing positive for steroids kill Alex Sanchez' chances of getting into the Hall of Fame?

by Mark H on Aug 1, 2005 2:02 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Nah
His general lack of talent will do that.
A Beane in the hand is worth $60M in payroll

by jeepers on Aug 1, 2005 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

5 problems facing MLB that are worse than steroids
I'm with cirquegirl14. I think steroids are generally "bad for the game," that players should be more actively discouraged from using them, and that MLB and the MLBPA are playing out a charade of "resolve" on the issue -- but I really just don't care that much about it.

Off the top of my head, here are 5 more pressing structural problems facing MLB:

  • the continued self-dealing of the clown show that is Selig's commissionership
  • the decline in popularity of and participation in baseball by African American youth
  • the existence of the antitrust exemption
  • the still-prevalent practice of holding communities hostage for public financing of stadia
  • Joe Morgan
It's tough out there, Pootie. You got drugs ... crime ... gorillas ...

by monkeyball on Aug 1, 2005 2:36 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Point 4 is pretty critical to AN
The Bay area is never going to vote for such a facility again.  Ever.  So if Selig still thinks it's the city's responsibility, this team is doomed to move.

I want to build an authentic German restaurant.  It will benefit the entire city.  Can't they pay for it?

In what other line of business does THAT kind of logic work?

A Beane in the hand is worth $60M in payroll

by jeepers on Aug 1, 2005 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, and ...
- chewing tobacco: chaw and snuff have more clinical data to prove their long-term detrimental nature than steroids; and as for the "The children! My god, what about the children!" arguments, smokeless tobacco use is much more visible than steroid use, and is much more easily adopted by impressionable teens (and preteens)

MLB has actually made previous stabs at adopting cosmetic public policies that made feints in the direction of reducing use of the stuff in the minors, but they've dropped the ball on it. If MLB can ban steroids, why can't they ban chaw?

I'd much rather see MLB take up an antismoking/antichaw campaign than the current prostate-cancer prevention one.

It's tough out there, Pootie. You got drugs ... crime ... gorillas ...

by monkeyball on Aug 1, 2005 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You forgot Problem #1: The Competitive Imbalance
in baseball that means the ten richest teams have first dibs on the best players while the ten poorest teams have to hope and pray that they can draft a winning team. (Cf. the list of winners of the AL Pennant, 1996 - 2004.)
Let us not continue to debate how many Angels can be dashed on the head of a pin. Let's just get to it while the gettin' is good.

by Checkswing HR on Aug 1, 2005 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually ...
... I think you have identified the inversion of problem #1: that the self-dealing clown show of the Selig Commissionership, utilizing the power of the antitrust exemption, in attempting to ransom public financing for new stadia boondoggles from civic/state/county governments, continues to spout the b.s. line that there is a "competitive imbalance" due to disparities in stated team revenues.

As Beane and his disciples have, to my satisfaction, proved, 95% of the "competitive imbalance" comes from a disparity of talent at the managerial-ownership level combined with an unwillingness by so-called small-market team owners to roll their revenue-sharing into player salaries vs their own pockets.

When you buy the Selig Line -- that "small markets" and "lack of 'viable' new stadia" cause on-field talent and W-L disparity (i.e., "competitive imbalance") -- you prove PT Barnum right all over again.

It's tough out there, Pootie. You got drugs ... crime ... gorillas ...

by monkeyball on Aug 1, 2005 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you saying that
KC has the same amount of money to play with as the Yankees? Where is KC hiding that extra $150 million, dammit!

I'm not saying that money is the ONLY variable that determines whether a team wins. But it's probably the most important one. Just look at the records of big-money teams vs. small-money teams, in aggregate.  

Remember when Billy B. said, after we lost to Minnesota in '03, that we could win if we had another $50 million? Can you imagine if genius had been merged with resources, i.e., if Billy had stayed with the Red Sox?

Let us not continue to debate how many Angels can be dashed on the head of a pin. Let's just get to it while the gettin' is good.

by Checkswing HR on Aug 1, 2005 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No ... forgive me my hyperbole!
95% is obviously not correct.

And, yes, if you have a huge pile of cash and a sweet cable deal, you can afford all sorts of extravangances to cover up the fundamental flaws in your club.

However, I still maintain that the grounds on which Selig and his cronies argue "disparity" are utter crapola.

And -- there are reasons beyond size that account for the marketing success of some of the big teams.

It's tough out there, Pootie. You got drugs ... crime ... gorillas ...

by monkeyball on Aug 1, 2005 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Player Payroll Disparity
Thanks, moneyball for another of your virtually always insightful and provocative posts.

Here, I agree with Checkswing that the payroll disparities are a major problem with the game. That the table in MLB is so far from level can largely be placed at the feet of the excreble playrers' union which continues to oppose the salary cap parities which make both the NFL and to a lesser but still pertinent extent, the NBA,  far fairer and honestly competitive...

Imagine the A's w/o BB, for he's really an aberration...You'd have KC.

by reztips on Aug 1, 2005 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did anyone every believe Viagra pitchman Palmeiro?
I mean c'mon, this guy has a history of lying about taking supplements.  First he lied about taking Viagra and now he (apparently)  lied about taking 'roids.  I mean, c'mon now, get real.  This guy is one of the cheesiest players in the game.  He probably has a red sports car too!

He shouldn't be barred from the hall for taking the juice, he should be barred for having so little class!

by BruceBochte on Aug 1, 2005 2:41 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

canseco interview tonight
donny deutsch, host of The Big Idea on CNBC,
will be interviewing canseco at 7 and 10pm (PDT)
tonight. FWIW.

by joe rudi is my hero on Aug 1, 2005 2:53 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

not the least surprised
this friggin' guy has been juicin' for years. look at his numbers! these idiots take "some type of supplement" for "my trainer" and don't bother to ask "what is this crap?" very convenient to then deny, deny, deny deny when  caught. this is an old game in sports...its been going on for years.

this asshole is a liar and cheat.

We're not dunderheads here...

by bigelephant on Aug 1, 2005 2:59 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I, for one,
believe Palmeiro.  He strikes me as one of the most honest and hard-working stars in major league baseball.  

Drug tests aren't 100% accurate and there are always some false positives.  Even if the drug test is accurate, there's all sorts of ways a trainer could slip him something without his knowledge.

When I read "Juiced", I found most of it pretty convincing.  But there were some parts that seemed like they were written just to shock the reader.  

by atomopawn on Aug 1, 2005 3:05 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

"I have never knowingly"
that's the magical phrase practiced by cheaters, liars and bullshit artists...don't be deceived! again, i say, look at his numbers.
We're not dunderheads here...

by bigelephant on Aug 1, 2005 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Olney and Kurkjin Both said they would Vote 4 Raff
To make the Hall of Fame on the first Ballot... what idiots...

Olney said something like "There is no way to distinguish those who cheated and those that didnt"

.....

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Aug 1, 2005 3:18 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I almost agree...
I would have a serious problem with voting Palmeiro into the HOF, but in the end, I think I would do it.

The problem with me is that there isn't hard scientific proof of how large an advantage steroids give, and in what capacity this could help a major league ballplayer.

Would they have helped Palmeiro: 1) play a better defensive 1st base? 2) hit for a higher average? 3) hit more home runs? 4) have more speed on the basepaths?

Those questions were on purpose a bit to illustrate to a small degree that despite being an obvious supplement to strength, steroids aren't going to help a player in every facet of the game.

But make no mistake -- even if steroids had no effect, if/when he took them, Palmeiro ~thought~ they would help him, so that does make him a cheater in my book. It also seems he's a liar, which of course is even worse.

But as I'm uncertain as to how much any PED's helped someone who is, without doubt, a very talented hitter regardless of steroid use, I can't just wipe out everything he's done. Not yet.

I'd be the best at everything, if only there weren't so many people better than me at everything...or, if everyone died, just for a few seconds.

by Daniel on Aug 1, 2005 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

the thing is
"everything he's done" only barely nudged him into Hall-of-Fame-territory.  He still had plenty of detractors who noted that while he'd been consistently good, he'd NEVER been great.  He seldom made the All-Star team.  He was right on the borderline, and while 3,000 hits seemingly pushed him into the Hall, the fact that he got his 3,000th hit while furiously appealing a 10-game suspension MLB was readying to impose upon him for taking substances that he righteously said he had never, ever used ... that ought to be enough to push him out.  
"Every time he opens his mouth he makes a fool of himself," La Russa said. "He's a village idiot."

by rubin sierra on Aug 1, 2005 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"There is no way to distinguish..."
"those who cheated..."

in that case, don't let ANY of them in the HoF, that seems like a simple enough solution...

If I weren't playing baseball, I'd be... "in the Ultimate Fighting Championship." -Rich Harden

by xbhaskarx on Aug 1, 2005 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Check the stats
Raffy's HR totals started to nearly doubled the very same year that Canseco and he were on the Rangers together.

by oscarwdog on Aug 1, 2005 5:04 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

hmm
i guess viagra wasnt the only "performance enhancer" he was using.

i find it funny when someone mentions his name, usually non-baseball fans know him as "that baseball player who takes viagra".  guess that might change now...

by Devina on Aug 1, 2005 5:27 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

chicago tribune on palmeiro
from the O's blog
http://www.camdenchat.com/story/2005/8/2/12111/42239

Palmeiro, who had volunteered to serve on Congress' "Zero Tolerance" task force after the March 17 appearance in Washington, claims he unknowingly took a banned substance. However, a highly placed MLB source told the Tribune that Palmeiro tested positive for a "serious" steroid that could not have been ingested accidentally.

"There's no way to get around this," the source said. "This wasn't a little mistake, and as Mr. Palmeiro found out, there are no exceptions in our program. If you are found out, you will pay the price."

Palmeiro would not explain how he came to test positive. He seemingly tried to leave the impression that the banned substance was contained in a supplement that was not prescribed.

Palmeiro, according to the MLB source, has known about the positive test for "three weeks to a month."

...

Palmeiro said his teammates didn't learn of his suspension until Monday morning.

If I weren't playing baseball, I'd be... "in the Ultimate Fighting Championship." -Rich Harden

by xbhaskarx on Aug 2, 2005 12:38 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Does it matter what was banned when?
Do we know that the substances that McGwire and those of his era were taking (to the extent we even know what they were taking)were even banned when they were taking them? Does it matter? A lot of the substances that have now been banned (for example Andro, which McGwire openly admitted to using)were not banned at the time. Thoughts???
ncb

by ncb on Aug 2, 2005 12:30 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Oakland Athletics.

Community Guidelines ANcillary Terms
Start posting about the Athletics »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Comparative Advantage: A Collaborative A's/Rays Solution
Ph3spec_small
Having fun with Pythagoras, or, who got lucky during 2009
Dsc00764_small
DLD - 11/07/2009 - How to Keep Yourself Occupied in the Off-Season
527918550406_0_bg_small
2010 Off-Season Blueprint
Depaulbluedemons_small
Community Prospect List #15

Recent FanPosts

Green_small
(Un)official AN Tech Request Thread
Countdown_small
Bill James 2010 Projections Now on Fangraphs
Depaulbluedemons_small
Zonis's Off Season Charter
Bill_king_small
AFL Rising Stars Showcase Tonight on MLBN @ 5PM
Me_at_att_park_small
Greener Grass, Episode 4: The Biggest Off Season (Potential) Decision Doesn't Involve Free Agents
Oaklandathletics_small
Hardy to Minnesota. What's with the early offseason trades?
Tyler_at_maya_school_small
Happy 6th Birthday, AN!

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SPONSORS


Managers

Tyler_at_maya_school_small Tyler Bleszinski

08-_the_author_small 67MARQUEZ

Baseball_small baseballgirl

Poochini-butt_in_box_2_small Nico

As_kings_cal_small louismg

Editors

Countdown_small Taj Adib

Ziegler160px_small Flashfire

527918550406_0_bg_small notsellingjeans