It's Bradford

re

Just wanted to add that I'm also glad it's Bradford and not Jairo or Calero, as originally rumored.

by 31Boots on Jul 8, 2005 12:31 AM PDT reply actions

wow, Nostradamus

Look what you started!

by BruceBochte on Jul 8, 2005 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions

I feel ill.

I'd rather have Bradford than Payton. Dude's been great for the A's, and I think the team would be better suited with Glynn in Sacto, Braddie in the 'pen, and Payton somewhere ELSE with his antics.

This... this is just depressing. For Kotsay, for Chadford.

I hate July.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Kyli on Jul 8, 2005 12:40 AM PDT reply actions

That's so unexpected. Almost Reggie and I just saw Chad Bradford hanging out with the rest of the bullpen last Saturday, and it was great reading about all his positive comments on how "These are my people now." A great loss, this is.

by Melody on Jul 8, 2005 12:51 AM PDT reply actions

re

Well, it does suck for us, but it could be good for Bradford. He'll have a much better shot at playing in the world series this year, and if he pitches well for that team, with all that exposure, he'll have a better chance at cashing in on his next contract, which will be the biggest of his career. If he's Bradford for the Sox, and shows what he can do on a big national scene, then he might get 2/6 from the Sox, Orioles, or even the Yankees. That would be a very nice payday for him.

by 31Boots on Jul 8, 2005 1:01 AM PDT up reply actions

Hmm.

Given the emphasis that's placed on how Bradford tries not to stand out, I can't see him as a Boston/NY big-market kind of guy.

I just hate the thought of poor Bradford getting booed in Boston if he struggles coming back from the rehab.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Kyli on Jul 8, 2005 1:06 AM PDT up reply actions

I think it'll be great for him.

Sox are talking of using Schilling in relief - that's how desperate their bullpen situation is right now. Bradford will be seen as a potential savior - good spot for a middle reliever to find himself in, especially if he performs well.

by Ozzz on Jul 8, 2005 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions

it'll be good for him if he performs

otherwise he'll feel the wrath

I'm the guy with the Carney/Jared Lansford jersey

by gojohn10 on Jul 8, 2005 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions

Yes, and his ego is pretty fragile

if I remember the passages in Moneyball correctly.

by BruceBochte on Jul 8, 2005 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions

Think Boston's infield defenders

would be able to handle all of the grounders that Bradford induces?

by OaklandSi on Jul 8, 2005 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions

Yeah.

Given how Bradford's gone through some struggles, I cna't see the Sox fans being kind to him if he's still trying to get it together after coming back from rehab.

He's just always seemed like such a nice guy, I can't see him enjoying being under that kind of Microscope of Hate, money or not.

Well. Maybe I'm wrong.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Kyli on Jul 8, 2005 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions

Schilling

He's ASKING to be in the bullpen so he can contribute sooner. The guy's got some leverage in Boston so it'll probably happen.

by grover on Jul 8, 2005 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions

It's Bradford

This trade may make more sense if Kotsay is traded (heaven forbid)...but right now the back of the A's bullpen is weak and trading Bradford makes it weaker.

I bet Byrnes threw up when he saw this news. Fact is the A's have a surplus of decent outfielders and Charles Thomas may work out yet. (Stroke seems to be returning in Sac town fwiw.)

My guess is if this trade goes through and Kotsay signs, Byrnes will soon be gone.

by Dore on Jul 8, 2005 1:02 AM PDT reply actions

One of the two will be gone

And maybe even both? Byrnes' value could be pretty high right now if a team is looking for a guy with power. I would not be surprised to see him traded, since the A's have had enough players roam the outfield this year to start its own football league. But I'm kind of at a loss attempting to come up with potential trades.

If a REAL BIG trade was to be made, I think it would involve Kotsay because Kotsay has more 'actual' value than Byrnes and would net a higher return, especially if the A's were looking to plug holes in the roster for this year. The A's really do have a surplus of outfielders, there are four as it is and Charles Thomas will be back soon enough, his speed is needed on the team.

Interesting note from MLB.com:

"Eric Byrnes, Oakland's left fielder, entered Thursday's game batting .337 at home and .169 on the road. The number of at-bats were almost identical, though. Byrnes had 92 at-bats at McAfee Coliseum, and 89 away from home.

What's the reason for this discrepancy?

'I have no idea,' Macha said laughing. 'It just jumps off the page. Wouldn't that jump off the page? Fact is stranger than fiction.'

Maybe it's the second games of those East Coast road trips."

So if I was ANT [any other team] I'd be wary of trading for Byrnes because he really is as streaky and as unpredictable as they come. Unless the team in question was the Giants; if they were any smart they'd find a way to acquire Byrnes. Can we say, hometown advantage? [Plus those of us who actually like Byrnes could still go out and see him every once in awhile. He's already a fan favorite there, and would get steady playing time, as a young guy in an aging roster. And we wouldn't have to play against him either, except in interleague. Oh, the woes, can you imagine Byrnes batting against Zito?]

by Melody on Jul 8, 2005 2:19 AM PDT up reply actions

On a side note...

I loved the quote at the bottom of the A's notes:

"We need to let the left field zealots make more road trips." -- Macha, on Byrnes' road woes with his bat

Just had to put it up here. :)

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Kyli on Jul 8, 2005 2:49 AM PDT up reply actions

I think you've got it Melody

It's going to be Byrnes to the Giants. They have looong coveted Mr. Byrnes and since the Limping Asterisk is out (probably forever as a fielder) now's the time to fleece them for what little they have to offer.

By the way I DETEST this trade (just because I love ol' Chadford... now that Mecir isn't on the team, who's going to be our designated bullpen freak?). Of course if this means we get to keep Kotsay, I'll go quietly.

by Brian in 317 on Jul 8, 2005 7:13 AM PDT up reply actions

It was awesome when we had tons

of freaks. Having Mecir, Bradford, and Sparks in the bullpen wasn't great for pitching, but it was a hell of a thing to watch.

Guess they have to bring up Kohn QUICKLY if this deal happens.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Kyli on Jul 8, 2005 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions

I wrote

a English essay about those freaks.

Bruce Campbell deserves his own national holiday.

by pbruins92 on Jul 8, 2005 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions

That's awesome!

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Kyli on Jul 8, 2005 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions

Don't forget

Venafro, especially when he and Bradford would be warming up together.

by sslinger on Jul 8, 2005 10:17 PM PDT up reply actions

All I can say is...

Say hello to our New Centerfielder...

...

in 2006...

...

Felix Pie?

Athletics Nation Chatroom! Join us at #AthleticsNation @ irc.zirc.org

by Zonis on Jul 8, 2005 1:06 AM PDT reply actions

David Forst on Kotsay

Don't know if anyone heard KFRC during the game, but Ken Korach had Assistant GM David Forst in the booth for a couple innings.

Korach asked Forst about any news on the Kotsay extension and Forst said (paraphrasing):

Things were looking real positive. Billy has been working really hard on it. Billy has been talking to Kotsay's agent a lot. He then said the two words to describe the situation were "hopeful" and "optimistic."

I KNOW THIS DOES NOT MEAN A WHOLE LOT WITH RESPECT TO TRADING KOTSAY, but what would people think if Kotsay was signed to an extension by the A's? Sure there's the posssibility of a team asking Billy for that in any trade (more value), but I tend to think if Billy was going to trade Kotsay, he would not bust his ass to get the extension. This would set a bad precedent for future contract extension talks with others, wouldn't it? Maybe I'm just being hopeful of Kotsay staying. What do you all think?

by oaktownmario on Jul 8, 2005 2:35 AM PDT reply actions

trade value

Could be just a ploy to keep his trade value up. If the A's publicly stated that they didn't have an interest in extending his contract or word leaked that they were interested but that things weren't going well then other teams would know that the A's pretty much had to trade him and then they would offer less.

by Larry E on Jul 8, 2005 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions

By the same token...

...Kotsay saying he wants to play on a contender could be just agent-driven talk inspired by the desire to get a better contract offer. Could well be he has no intention of going, but if he wants Billy to pay up, he has to look like he does.

by Ozzz on Jul 8, 2005 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions

i think BB might still have a shot at Kotsay

maybe Payton will be part of another immediate trade, you know how Beane works the 3-team deals so well!

by popcornjames on Jul 8, 2005 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions

I hope.....

Kotsay signs, Jay Payton roaming centerfield scares the hell out of me. Plus, what has Jay Payton done thats so great? Or does he have a lot of potental?

ohio roots

by nickatt7 on Jul 8, 2005 2:46 AM PDT reply actions

Nope

he is 33 years old. This makes absolutely no sense.

Bruce Campbell deserves his own national holiday.

by pbruins92 on Jul 8, 2005 6:29 AM PDT up reply actions

Short term

I believe that Payton would just be a short term answer. If Kotsay nets us good value in a trade then it makes sense.

by Larry E on Jul 8, 2005 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions

maybe VERY short term

as in long enough to flip over to another team in another deal...?

by OaklandSi on Jul 8, 2005 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions

Sure

that is possible. BB is working this situation so that he is dealing from a position of strength. I have great confidence in him.

by Larry E on Jul 8, 2005 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions

Payton couldn't replace Kotsay in SD.

Padres washed Payton out after one year and got Dave Roberts who is a much better fielder and a leadoff guy. Payton is old - no upside for a team that is "rebuilding".
I hope he is part of a package for a real player....because he is a budget increaser at $3.5 M.............and about as productive per dollar as our grossly overpaid catcher who has leveled his slap hitting at .260 probably his real average playing in Oakland.
But it's July. If the A's lose another series or two and they will be toast looking to dump salary out of a very limited pool of dumpables. I sure hope we aren't doing an extension with Kotsay just to make him more saleable.

by Carerra on Jul 8, 2005 6:08 AM PDT reply actions

Until the A's announce they have traded Bradford

and/or acquired Payton, we really should treat this as a rumor and not as fact.

by OaklandSi on Jul 8, 2005 6:19 AM PDT reply actions

I agree...

...but if it is, I've just got to believe there's a piggyback deal to follow.

The whole idea of Bradford-for-Payton is just to weird.

AN Members Nationality Survey II: Now with color-coded goodness!

by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Jul 8, 2005 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions

I agree with you

by OaklandSi on Jul 8, 2005 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions

I can see the logic

If Kotsay signs, we have a serviceable fourth outfielder. We can flip him at the deadline or hang onto for the rest of the year. If we do the latter, Eric Byrnes becomes expendable, and we can flip him for a couple of mid-level prospects.

Bradford coming back means there is no odd man out in the bullpen. We can bring up Cruz and designate Glynn. If Cruz starts, Saarloos becomes the DP machine out of the bullpen/long man/spot sparter. If Saarloos, Cruz, or Rincon is traded, Jairo comes to the 'pen to stay. We still have a lefty in Flores.

If Kotsay does not sign, the 'pen situation stays the same, we trade Kotsay for a two bats and a bag of baseballs, and Jay Payton fills in the rest of the year. Next year, A's fans are treated to Eric Byrnes misjudging balls in center, Nick Swisher doing his best T-long impression in center, or some guy named Pie.

Fearing Mecir since 2000.

by salb918 on Jul 8, 2005 6:35 AM PDT reply actions

If the A's get Payton and keep him

he will need to play alot, or they will have a vocal malcontent on their hands.

by OaklandSi on Jul 8, 2005 6:38 AM PDT up reply actions

YEAH, we need that

Terence Long and Chris Singleton, anybody?

by Poppy on Jul 8, 2005 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions

Remember Becker?

Same thing.

"You can throw your cocks if I don't care!" - Iggy Pop

by AlamedaAphid on Jul 8, 2005 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions

Another theory

The Cubs need a CF, now that they sent Corey Patterson down. It could be Kotsay...but it could be Payton. If we sign Kotsay, then the reeling Cubs take a chance on Payton - Dusty loves those veteran players - and see if we can't pry an A-prospect away. Or, maybe the Yankees take Payton - with two CF, Oakland can deal from a pretty good position.

Fearing Mecir since 2000.

by salb918 on Jul 8, 2005 6:51 AM PDT reply actions

That sounds right to me

... but the two nagging details that still inspire doubt are that (a) Beane has been trying for three or four years to get Payton and (b) despite the number of teams looking for centerfielders, there are even more teams looking for relievers.

I guess, though, that if the Sox are willing to buy a used Corolla with 100,000 miles and a rebuilt tranny sight-unseen as soon as it rolls out of the shop, that's the sort of buyer you look for ...

Laugh while you can, monkeyboy!

by monkeyball on Jul 8, 2005 7:41 AM PDT up reply actions

a rebuilt "tranny"

sight-unseen is a sight to be unseen

We're not dunderheads here...

by bigelephant on Jul 8, 2005 8:10 AM PDT reply actions

Man, I really dislike trade rumors.

Am I the only one?

"Look what we did!"

by ArakSOT on Jul 8, 2005 8:21 AM PDT reply actions

No,

you aren't the only one.

by Jennifer on Jul 8, 2005 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions

please pass the meds

"Look what we did!"

by ArakSOT on Jul 8, 2005 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions

sissy

My tinfoil hat alleviates the need for meds.

What's the point of attaching a number to everything you do? If your numbers go up, you're having more fun.

by AlwaysSweatin on Jul 8, 2005 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions

I just want this to be over.

My helmet is messing up my hair.

by Jennifer on Jul 8, 2005 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions

That's why ...

... I always keep my head shaved: my tinfoil hat fits better, plus it's easier for the docs to reattach the electrodes when they catch up with me and put me back in my cage.

Plus, no matted fur!

Laugh while you can, monkeyboy!

by monkeyball on Jul 8, 2005 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions

Seriously... look at the title

It's like a death announcement. It's like we knew someone was eaten by the dinosuars, but we didn't know who yet.

"What was that?"

"It's Bradford."

"Look what we did!"

by ArakSOT on Jul 8, 2005 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions

awesome

more like:

"It's..."
"No, coach!"
"It's... it's Bradford."
"Nooo!"
"There was nothing left, nothing... except a hand with bruised knuckles."

by Apricot on Jul 8, 2005 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions

My Guess is that Billy already has a deal

in place to move Kotsay, either to the Cubs or the Yankmees. Remember the hangup with the Yankjobs was that they wanted to sign Kotsay to an extension before they dealt for him?

Still I like the Cubs prospects better as Duncan and/or Hughes never seemed to make sense. Felix Pie (pronounced "Pay") doesn't really seem to be an A's type player. He doesn't draw a lot of walks. However, Billy did suggest that he was in the market for power last week. Maybe Pie really is the A's CF of the future? I don't think I like it because his name is uncannily like Felix Jose!

by BruceBochte on Jul 8, 2005 8:25 AM PDT reply actions

How Great was the Outfield of ...

Junior Felix-Felix Jose-Jose Canseco

by Eck on Jul 8, 2005 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions

Great

Fantasy league team name at the time

by sslinger on Jul 8, 2005 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions

Boston Globe is also reporting it.

Part of the deal is since Bradford is on the DL the A's need to clear a spot on the roster - - a good time to say good by to Ginter??? - he is close to useless. Still don't understand using a .165 hitter as a DH - guess Macha likes NL ball.
Here is the link:
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/07/08/cora_stern_are_added_payton_on_the_ way_out/

by Carerra on Jul 8, 2005 9:07 AM PDT reply actions

Such an interesting deal....

Doesnt make a lot of sense on the surface....I wonder what is next. I do know that Payton sucks.

Bring back Hammer.

by OaktownPower on Jul 8, 2005 9:17 AM PDT reply actions

Dodgers need OF help, and more

How about Payton and Ginter for Olemedo Saenz - Dodgers get infield and 2b help to cover injuries - A's get a RH stick (DH, 1b, 3b) to replace a useless spare infielder............also reduces payroll for A's with Bradford going to Boston.

by Carerra on Jul 8, 2005 9:23 AM PDT reply actions

Wow

My dad just sent me an email talking about the same exact possibility. Did you hear that somewhere?

by RunRickeyRun on Jul 8, 2005 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions

Saenz

He already gave the A's the shaft, so I don't think Billy will give up guys to reacquire him...

I'm easily distracted by those AVP advertisements

by franks a lot on Jul 8, 2005 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions

Didn't we give HIM the shaft . . .

when he tore his Achilles?

by Josh @ Athletics Nation on Jul 8, 2005 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions

I don't think so

They were helping rehab him and then he sort of disappeared on them (maybe for personal reasons?) I think he was more at fault than the A's were.

"Don't be an ass!" --Bill King

by batgirl on Jul 8, 2005 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions

Hey BG

when did King say "Don't be an ass!"

by BruceBochte on Jul 8, 2005 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions

LMAO!

He really did, I'll vouch for batgirl's signature... I think Ray & Ken were teasing him about something "high-tech", pretending to be surprised by Bill having a CD player or something. It was hysterical!

by Poppy on Jul 8, 2005 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions

Was it this year or last year?

by BruceBochte on Jul 8, 2005 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions

wasn't it just in the last

few weeks?

by OaklandSi on Jul 8, 2005 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions

yes it was

Hilarious. Korach brought it up a couple of broadcasts ago on the radio. Fosse was saying how he missed King. Korach said, "even after what he called you last week." Fosse said "don't remind me."

I'm the guy with the Carney/Jared Lansford jersey

by gojohn10 on Jul 8, 2005 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions

Think it was in the last week or two

they were talking about listening to CDs in the car and Ray or Ken asked Bill if he still had any 8 tracks. Hilarious.

by NicoleG on Jul 8, 2005 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions

That is hilarious

Man, I am so sorry I missed it. Might even be worth trying to pay for MlB.coms archeived games. Do you remember who the A's were playing?

Do you think Bill King really has any animus towards Fosse?

by BruceBochte on Jul 8, 2005 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions

No!

It was totally just joking! It was an afternoon game and they were very lighthearted the whole game. They kept breaking out in laughter and were being much sillier than usual. I'd guess it was the Seattle game June 30th?

"Don't be an ass!" --Bill King

by batgirl on Jul 8, 2005 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions

I think that's right

It was definitely a weekday afternoon game, because I was listening in my car during my lunch break. So either the 30th or the 23rd.

Wasted? What about our staring contests? And the way we always knew what football coaches should have done? - Homer

by andeux on Jul 8, 2005 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions

Cool, thanks BG

by BruceBochte on Jul 8, 2005 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions

Hmmm... sillier than usual?

They start sounding suspiciously like Cheech & Chong at times...

"You can throw your cocks if I don't care!" - Iggy Pop

by AlamedaAphid on Jul 8, 2005 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions

Yeah, maybe Byrnes

is cutting them in on bong rips of FieldTurf!

by BruceBochte on Jul 8, 2005 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions

Don't be an ass!

For some reason the trio (King, Korach & Fosse) were talking about music. Fosse asked King "are you still listening to 8-tracks?" and King immediately shot back "Don't be an ass!"

And that's your Carl's Jr. "In your face" call of the game.

"Don't be an ass!" --Bill King

by batgirl on Jul 8, 2005 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions

Which also brings to mind

my other favorite King swearing on the air moment. Last season at the very beginning of the broadcast he didn't know his mic was on and he said something like "well I can't find it with all this shit lying around!" Someone was obviously furiously guesturing to him that he was broadcasting, because without missing a beat, he flowed like water right into "Hello everybody, and welcome to another day of A's baseball." It's just one of the many, many reasons I love Bill King. What a treasure.

"Don't be an ass!" --Bill King

by batgirl on Jul 8, 2005 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions

A's are getting Payton because

Monte Poole had a sitdown with BB

by southofcruiseamerica on Jul 8, 2005 9:24 AM PDT reply actions

What about this

We need to clear a roster spot so we trade Payton and Ginter to the Dodgers for a young arm or some minor league talent. The Dodgers could use a guy like Payton with Bradley and Drew out. Then we'd essentially be giving away Ginter(useless) and Bradford (bad back and career could be over) for what ever we can get back. Not a bad idea to me.

On the other hand, if we keep Payton, chance are Kotsay is gone. With San Diego paying some and I'm sure Boston will pay some of the salary, we've got a serviceable outfielder that won't cost us much.

As far as Kotsay goes...I'd welcome Cano and a minor leaguer or two. Cano is going to be a real good player and would fill our 2B hole nicely.

by RunRickeyRun on Jul 8, 2005 9:26 AM PDT reply actions

What do we need More?

A veteran late inning relief pitcher?

or

An outfielder who makes 3.5 million, has a bad attitude and does the same thing offensively as people on our roster (kielty, byrnes)

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Jul 8, 2005 9:35 AM PDT reply actions

What we need

will be filled by the next trade BB makes. Either a Kotsay deal for 2-3 A/B prospects, or Payton for 1-2 B prospects. If we keep Payton, he will be for a maximum of this season and next. His defensive numbers from last season are almost identical to Kotsay's, while his offense is slightly lower. If Kotsay brings us Pie, Angel Guzman, and Ricky Nolasco/Rich Hill, we "essentially" trade Bradford and a little offense for three prospects. If it's Payton that goes, we "essentially" move Bradford for 1-2 prospects. My guess is, BB doesn't have space for Bradford because once Cruz is stretched out, Saarloos will fill the GIDP reliever spot.

by gatling on Jul 8, 2005 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions

Payton isnt in Kotsay's league Defensively

He's an average center fielder with above average speed, but he certainly wont challenge for any Gold Gloves ala Kotsay.

Offensively, this man for his career has struck out almost twice as many times as he has walked.

319 K's vs 174 BB's

And despite his good speed he obviously doesnt know how to steal a base.

25 SB vs 24 CS

... again I just hope its a smoke screen or a 3 way deal or something.. but please NO PAYTON

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Jul 8, 2005 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions

2004 Defensive Numbers

Kotsay: 1255 innings, 364 Total Chances, 347 Putouts, 11 assists, 6 errors, 4 double plays, .984 fielding percentage

Payton: 1075 innings, 357 Total Chances, 342 Putouts, 11 assists, 4 errors, 2 double plays, .989 fielding percentage

I'd say these stats are almost identical. What NL outfielder even gets a second look if your name's not Andruw Jones or Jim Edmonds? You didn't hear any GG talk about Kotsay until he came to the AL. Based on the stats, the same could be true of Payton.

by gatling on Jul 8, 2005 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions

Nice Research, af4e

Plus, according to ESPN's Stats, their career stats as a center fielder are ...

Kotsay: Range Factor of 2.75; Zone Rating of .881
Payton: Range Factor of 2.69; Zone Rating of .885

I've never been a true believer in defensive statistics, but it's uncanny how close these two players rate.

My guess is that Billy is going to trade Kotsay to the Yankees or the Cubs for the motherload of prospects and replace him with Payton.

What makes Kotsay so valuable is his defense, not his hitting. It looks like Payton is certainly an adequate replacement -- for the rest of the year..

by Eck on Jul 8, 2005 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions

Also, don't forget ...

... Beane has some Top Sekrit defense-evaluation algorithm, which was one of the key determinants in getting Kotsay. I'm sure Beane's DFens-O-Meter rates Payton pretty highly.

Quite frankly, I (and, I think, most of the folks at AN) had precisely the same reservations about Kotsay before Beane acquired him as I/we do about Payton.

Laugh while you can, monkeyboy!

by monkeyball on Jul 8, 2005 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions

not necessarily true

for example, I knew about Kotsay since his days at Fullerton. My only question about him before the trade went through was his back (and I liked Ramon alot).

Kotsay was just turning 28 at the time of the trade. Payton is 32. Kotsay was an everyday player, while Payton is a disgruntled part-timer.

by OaklandSi on Jul 8, 2005 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions

Well,

when you go from being a full-time player for the last 4 years, to being a fourth outfielder it can't be easy. The fact that Payton wants more playing time tells me he is passionate about the game. He could just as easily not complain, and collect one helluva paycheck. As far as the age difference, we're not acquiring Payton for our future. We're bringing him in so we can move Kotsay, which WILL secure our future for the next 5-7 years. The real move is Kotsay for prospects. Payton only comes in so Byrnes doesn't kill himself in the field by playing everyday.

by gatling on Jul 8, 2005 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions

Payton Signed with the Red Sox

knowing he was gonna play behind Manny Ramirez, Johnny Damon and Trot Nixon. therefore he has no room to complain about PT

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Jul 8, 2005 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions

No, Payton was traded to Boston for

Dave Roberts. He didn't sign as a free agent.

by gatling on Jul 8, 2005 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions

Well Damn

My bad

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Jul 8, 2005 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions

So

he are getting another outfielder he hits lefties, but not righties. Except this guy is older and more expensive. Thats all we get for a reliable relief pitcher because everyone knows how stable AL bullpens have been this year.

Bruce Campbell deserves his own national holiday.

by pbruins92 on Jul 8, 2005 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions

I think this signals

the organization's belief that Jairo is ready to become a regular in the Show. Glynn is just occupying a bullpen spot until the team is sure Harden can go the distance. The A's already have a long man in Yabu and sometimes Duke, so there is no place for Glynn. As for Bradford, the bullpen has been outstanding without him. He's been great for us in the past, but if Jairo is called up (which he should be), then there is no place for Chad. Also, BB isn't afraid to trade someone with value that has a chronic injury (see Huddy). I would think Payton would be moved again in another deal. No place for him with Thomas ready to come back up.

by willem20 on Jul 8, 2005 9:37 AM PDT reply actions

I can see where your coming from

But Bradford adds an element to the pen that Garcia can not, that being the ability to induce so many ground balls.

Ryan Glynn... I can understand him being up for Hardens first 2 starts, but PLEASE get that man out of here ASAP

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Jul 8, 2005 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions

Sinkerballer Saarloos

maybe this signifies a move that will put Saarloos in the pen and Cruz to start? It's hard to imagine they would move Saarloos to the pen seeing as he's performed well as a starter of late, but it's a possibility.

I'm the guy with the Carney/Jared Lansford jersey

by gojohn10 on Jul 8, 2005 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions

Cant Change The Rotation

When everyone is pitching so well. You cant trade bradford thinking Saarloos is gonna slide to the pen and Cruz will be a good starting pitcher.

I mean you can, but not when you are in a playoff race... And I'ma big Cruz fan

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Jul 8, 2005 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions

I agree

It doesn't make much sense, but then again, neither does trading Bradford for Payton.

I'm the guy with the Carney/Jared Lansford jersey

by gojohn10 on Jul 8, 2005 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions

Why not just bring Cruz up to start

and put Saarloos in the pen to back him up if it doesn't work out. Something has to be figured out with Cruz and relief doesn't look like his game.

Saarloos is only good for about 80 pitches per game anyway, so it would be like Cruz and Saarloos are co-5th starters!

by BruceBochte on Jul 8, 2005 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions

Give Saarloooos a Chance

since he added his new pitch he shutout Seattle and pitched well against the White Sox... If Loos struggles for a couple starts then make the move, but certainly not now

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Jul 8, 2005 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions

Yeah, but eventually he'll have to go

The Seattle start may have been an abberation against a mediocre team. We all know that he is only good for about 80 pitches/game (Exactly what he did against the Sox).

by BruceBochte on Jul 8, 2005 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions

Jairo doesn't seem ready

in fact, it looks like he's pulling a Juan Cruz in Sacramento. Not as many walks, though.

He's certainly promising and young, so time is on his side.

I would think Cruz would be considered for a promotion first. Unless Jairo suddenly puts it all together.

by Sharon on Jul 8, 2005 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions

Bradford

makes too much money to be our 4th reliever at best. He will make more money next year and therefore if he is not traded will be gone in the off season. Makes sense to move him now.

by Larry E on Jul 8, 2005 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions

My take:

Chadford isn't healing as well as BB would like, so he decided to cut his losses, not risk being stuck with a gimp, and got something tradable back.

The Red Sox needed to offload Payton, but they also desperately need bullpen help, so they were probably content to take a chance on a guy who, let's face it, might be done.

I wouldn't expect Payton to stay long, but I do expect Billy to hang out the "Outfielders R'Us" sign and start actively petitioning rich teams needing outfield help to make a killer deal for one of our extras - most likely Byrnes or Payton.

All in all, I suspect this deal is going to be another "give it a year" Billy Beane steal.

by Ozzz on Jul 8, 2005 10:16 AM PDT reply actions

Damages Goods != Tradable Goods

The Sox wont just take Bradford if the man is hurt, theres physicals involved in every trade.

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Jul 8, 2005 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions

A guy can be 'not hurt'..

...and lose his ability to pitch regardless. Bradford has a lot of rehabbing to do, and even when it's done, he may pitch absolute rubbish. It doesn't take much of a change in style to go from hero to zero.

Example one, Rick Ankiel.
Example two, Mark Fidrych.

by Ozzz on Jul 8, 2005 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions

Wow, exactly my take

I posted something similar on the other thread:

"BB is just trying to trade low value (Bradford)

for higher value (Payton). Its like last year with Beltran or a couple of years ago with Weaver. He just gets as high a value player as he can for as low value as he can, not necessarily to keep them but to flip them, maybe for prospects.

I like the idea of flipping Payton to LA which needs outfield help. Their farm system is totally stocked at AA!"

by BruceBochte on Jul 8, 2005 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions

Jay Payton's Value

Is it really that high?

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Jul 8, 2005 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions

Look, even if Bradford comes out pitching

as well as he has historically, he's probably worth no more than Payton. And he could pitch a whole lot worse than he has historically. There's no telling how he'll come back from injury. He could be horrible, so the lowest risk move would be to move him now. I mean with Street, Calero, Duke, Garcia and Yabu (and possibly Saarloos) the A's are flush with RH relief.

by BruceBochte on Jul 8, 2005 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions

They're Also Flush with RH Of

Or at least those that hit lefties better:
Byrnes, Kielty, Kotsay

- what im sayin is theres no place for him to play UNLESS you trade Kotsay which would be a huge mistake..

As much as I hate Payton, I'll hate him even more if he replaces Kotsay in Center.. Jay Payton is the guy the Red Sox brought in to replace Gabe bleepin Kapler..

How does a man go from replacing Gabe Kapler to replacing Mark Kotsay?!?!

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Jul 8, 2005 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions

You're missing the other option.

We trade Payton.

by Ozzz on Jul 8, 2005 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions

While Payton is a RH,

his numbers in limited AB against righties this year are close to Kotsay's. If you calculate his stats out to 235 AB against righties(which is how many Kotsay has), the numbers look like this:

Payton 11HR, 42 RBI, .230/.288/.410

Kotsay 6HR, 31 RBI, .251/.310/.383

Now, I don't think Payton would necessarily have that many homers, he is on that pace. Payton would provide a little RH pop to lineup, which something everyone seems to be longing for.

by gatling on Jul 8, 2005 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions

God No...

he has proven to be complete trash when not in Coors.

Bring back Hammer.

by OaktownPower on Jul 8, 2005 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions

THIS SUCKS

can we just never deal with boston?

i'm sorry everybody, but i think macha is a good manager.

by JMC @ Athletics Nation on Jul 8, 2005 10:43 AM PDT reply actions

I'm down with that.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Kyli on Jul 8, 2005 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions

Why is everybody so attached to Bradford?

If there is one thing we've learned from Beane it is not to get too attached to individual players.

Bradford has put in a couple of good years yes, but there is no guarantee this will continue after surgery. Better to trade him no when he has value, then wait for the possibility that he is washed up after major back surgery and wathch him loose all value whatsoever.

I predict that, if this deal in fact goes through, either Kotsay or Payton is dealt before the end of July. And if its Kotsay that must go, I feel a lot better with Payton in CF than BongHead Byrnes.

by BruceBochte on Jul 8, 2005 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions

Agree

Especially because his best year was 2003. He was pretty mediocre last year with a 4.42 ERA.

I think that Bradford and the submarine was a bit of a novelty when he first started pitching for the A's, teams had not seen anything like that before. I think its a good time to move him, given the fact that hes pitched in the AL for some time and the back injury.

by pickinmachine on Jul 8, 2005 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions

The Point is

If your making a playoff run you'd rather have Bradford in the bullpen.

If your making moves for the future, then you trade him for Payton or whoever and then trade Payton or Kotsay for prospects.

But the bottom line is, as far as being a playoff team THIS year, its a bad trade whichever way you spin it

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Jul 8, 2005 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions

The A's are Not a Playoff Team This Year

by Eck on Jul 8, 2005 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions

some lessons just don't stick...

"If there is one thing we've learned from Beane it is not to get too attached to individual players."

Being an A's fan is really, really, really difficult for sentimental drips like me...

On that note, I'm going to SBC Boutique to see Mulder tonight :)

by Poppy on Jul 8, 2005 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions

Man, what a sacrfice

Sitting through an entire game at Pac Punk Park listening to fans drink Chablis and gossip about MLB liscenced underwear they got just to watch ex-A's.

You really are a sentimental drip!

I guess that's another lesson we can learn from BB, "don't sacrifice!"

by BruceBochte on Jul 8, 2005 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions

It's Beane's fault, man.

If he filled the team with dudes like Redman and T-Long, every trade would be celebrated. But nooo, he has to go out and get great players that are fun to watch and who are also good teammates. I blame Billy! :-)

I'm an emotional gal, I get attached to the summer boys like superglue and it's always hard to let one go. I figure it's Beane's job to not get too attached, but as long as he keeps truckin' in players like we typically see in Oakland, it's impossible to hold them all at arm's length.

The novelty of Bradford's delievery is easy to get attached to, I think. Plus, he HAS been important for the team in the past, it's natural to be a bit attached to the guy.

Also, given the fact that this is just one piece of his summer moves and it's impossible to see the whole picture... well, that makes it hard. Most of the time, it's not difficult to see the utter value in his midseason moves, this one's just a bit more difficult since it's incomplete.

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Kyli on Jul 8, 2005 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions

Why does everyone assume Kotsay is gone?

I am not saying Kotsay won't be traded, and with this and the other thread, almost every possibility has been covered. But most people are assuming Kotsay is gone. Why? Here are what I think are the two most real possibilities?

Payton is sent to another team before he even wears an A's uniform. While the Red Sox are full of press spies, the A's are not, hence we only have one side of the story. Anyone rember Michael Barret's stats as an A? How about Jeff Weaver's W/L record for the green and gold? Or Carlos Beltran's BA (yes the A's did possess rights to him, thus getting Dotel from Houston)?
Byrnes, not Kotsay is traded to anyone dumb enough (Giants, Yankees) or desperate enough (Cubs/Yankees/Dodgers). This trade would not be a big deal for prospects, but just to unload Byrnes and his overpriced 2 mill a year. (This seems less likely b/c Payton would be in the same situation as he was in Boston - platoon).

Then again, maybe Beane takes advantage of so many teams in need of a CF and trades all 3 (Byrnes, Payton, and Kotsay) for serious young mashers and pitchers from ChiCubs, NY, and LAD. This would mean the arrival of Charles Thomas. SCARY thought, but then again, Mulder and Hudson are in the NL.

WHO THE HELL KNOWS, but I think #1 happens.

by oaktownmario on Jul 8, 2005 12:24 PM PDT reply actions

I agree superMario

Nice to lay out the possibilities.

My only point was that Payton in an A's uni is not the end of the world.

by BruceBochte on Jul 8, 2005 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions

If Kotsay is gone - no Playoffs

I agree losing Kotsay is not the end of the world. The end of the world would be the A's leaving Oakland, and going to LAAAALLLAAAA land.

Seriosuly though, if Kotsay gets dealt, I think we have a clear statement from Beane that this season is about the next five years.

And I definitely agree that TAB (Tired Ass Byrnes)/Bonghead/ByrnesBrain is a nightmare in CF and I would take Payton over him any day.

by oaktownmario on Jul 8, 2005 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions

4 Possibilities

Trade doesnt happen
Payton is shipped before he plays
Payton stays, Byrnes is traded... Payton platoons in left
Payton stays, Kotsay is traded

-Results

We add a bullpen arm (obviously)
gets us, most likely, prospects
gets us, most likely, prospects
removes the teams best overall player (arguably) and gets us top flight prospects..

In my opinion, the only option which helps THIS YEARS time is option#1

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Jul 8, 2005 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions

Actually, only #4 doesn't help this year

and #1 might not help either, since this team likely needs something (maybe more than it can get, but who knows?) in order to make the playoffs.

In option #2 the A's don't lose anyone key. Some would argue the same for option #3, though I don't want to keep heaping up abuse on Byrnes. (He certainly handles his part time status better than Payton does.)

by OaklandSi on Jul 8, 2005 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions

The Bottom Line Is...

Both Payton and Kotsay won't be on the team at the same time -- they bring exactly the same stuff to the table. And Kotsay has much higher trade value.

by Eck on Jul 8, 2005 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions

BB is sensing that

Kotsay is overvalued and Payton is undervalued.

Another inefficiency in the market!

by BruceBochte on Jul 8, 2005 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions

They Dont bring the same stuff to the table

Kotsay is a better hitter
Kotsay is a better fielder (I've seen Payton play plenty)
Kotsay is a better baserunner
Kotsay is a better teammate

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Jul 8, 2005 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions

And better paid!

Does Beane want Payton in CF with Boston paying some of his contract or Kotsay in CF and his 7 million.

Beane may be thinking that Payton at a low cost is better than Kotsay and the 7 mill.

by dougald1 on Jul 8, 2005 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions

Exactly

and don't forget the prime prospects the A's will get back when they trade Kotsay.

I'd take Robinson Cano and Payton, plus the free agent the extra $5 million wil buy.

by Eck on Jul 8, 2005 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions

A's never had Beltran

KC was the middleman in that trade. Houston gave KC Dotel and Buck for Beltran, then KC gave us Dotel for Teahen and Wood.

Your way it doesn't add up. KC was netting three players for Beltran, so they had to be the one in the middle.

We did briefly own Weaver, though. That time we were the middleman team.

by iglew on Jul 9, 2005 4:36 AM PDT up reply actions

I still don't get it, though...

If we're dumping Byrnes, even Kotsay, how has Jay Payton proved to be any better than CT, Matt Watson, or the several other guys we have in AAA? Or speaking of which, why can't we just swing a cheap FA deal (for that's what Payton's worth) for a bat still among the free agency? Heck, Rickey would be more exciting than Payton :)

by Trocmagic on Jul 8, 2005 12:28 PM PDT reply actions

You are not paying attention to Payton's

superior defensive numbers. He is a PROVEN major league CF with good defensive numbers, none of which can be said for CT, ByrnesBrain, or Watson.

af4e and Eck posted these numbers already, but I'll post their comparative 2004 defensive numbers again, since no one seems to be reading the whole thread.

Kotsay: 1255 innings, 364 Total Chances, 347 Putouts, 11 assists, 6 errors, 4 double plays, .984 fielding percentage

Payton: 1075 innings, 357 Total Chances, 342 Putouts, 11 assists, 4 errors, 2 double plays, .989 fielding percentage

Kotsay: Range Factor of 2.75; Zone Rating of .881

Payton: Range Factor of 2.69; Zone Rating of .885

by BruceBochte on Jul 8, 2005 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions

Thanks, Bruce

(I loved Bruce Bochte, by the way, and all the First basemen on those bad '80's A's teams: Dave Revering, Jim Spencer, etc.)

One small correction though: the Range Factor and Zone Rating numbers are for their entire careers, while playing center field.

by Eck on Jul 8, 2005 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions

Chuck's D

Isn't CT a studly defensive OF? I assume his defensive ability is not resticted to the corner slots. Therefore, the case against CT would be his offense

I'm the guy with the Carney/Jared Lansford jersey

by gojohn10 on Jul 8, 2005 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions

I like the emphasis on proven...

Because if anything, we've seen plenty of teams (Brewers, Royals, etc) go out and get the "proven" veteran and not play the young player.

CT has the skillset to cover a good center, he just didn't last year because the Braves have a pretty decent center fielder incumbent :)

I still think Charles Thomas can do it-- and he has plenty of defensive skills, too-- and there is merit in letting Bradford simply play a bit to build up his market.

And Payton, it's worth noting, was DFA'd. I don't see his value as higher than Bradford if he's not contributing anything immediately.

I guess it's just the fan in me looking for reasons, though.

by Trocmagic on Jul 8, 2005 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions

Defensively

Payton may be faster, but Kotsay gets to more balls..

Payton played in Colorado where everyone hits the ball in the air, thus enabling him to make more plays.

Payton has a +Arm for a centerfielder, but Kotsay has a great arm, which is probably the reason for his 2 more errors & lower %

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Jul 8, 2005 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions

Payton played in Colorado, which

is a hitter's park. He also played in Shea and Petco, both of which are pitchers parks, like ours. If he played that well in San Diego last year, why wouldn't he play just as well here?

Petco Dimensions
Left Field: 334 feet
Right Field: 322 feet
Left-Center: 367 feet
Right-Center: 387 feet
Center Field: 396 feet

McAfee Dimensions
Left Field Line 330
Right Field Line 330
Left Center 362
Right Center 362
Straight Away Center Field 400

The size of the outfields are nearly identical, with Petco being a little bigger. I'd say Payton's numbers from last year translate very well to our park. As far as the arm goes, both outfielders had 11 assists. I don't think Payton could have too bad of an arm to match Kotsay in that category.

Having said all that, Jay Payton is definitely not who I would choose to play CF. If he only has to play there this year, and Felix Pie takes over next year, I can definitely live with this trade.

by gatling on Jul 8, 2005 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions

The Numbers Prove You Wrong

In 180 fewer innings, Payton had the same number of assists as Kotsay and only FIVE fewer putouts! How can you possibly say Kotsay has more range?

We all know how great an outfielder Mark Kotsay is, but the numbers seem to indicate that Payton is just as good.

And it's not accurate to say "everyone hits the ball in the air" in Colorado. The ball may travel farther when it's hit in the air, but there's no reason that the thin air changes the angle in which the ball hits the bat.

When you say things like "I've seen him play" and ignore the numbers you end up sounding like one of the scouts Billy ridicules in Moneyball.

Find value by looking beyond the hype.

by Eck on Jul 8, 2005 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions

My point is,

You cant evaluate on numbers alone.

I'm pretty sure if you asked Billy Beane he would tell you that Mark Kotsay is a better defensive centerfielder than Jay Payton..

Matter of fact I'm pretty sure if you ask ANY baseball General Manager they'll tell you Kotsay is the superior defender.

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Jul 8, 2005 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions

I wouldn't want to ask any GM

in the game. Maybe 5-6 outside of BB, but not most of them. You're missing the point with your arguement. The majority of scouts and GMs still rate players by tools. We don't! BB evaluates players based on STATISICAL ANALYSIS. Therefore, the nearly identical numbers for Payton and Kotsay hold much importance in the A's way of evaluating players. So far, BB's track record is pretty damn good. The only player he traded away I wish we still had is Bonderman. One player out of dozens. I'd say the guy knows what he's doing.

by gatling on Jul 8, 2005 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions

Beane doesnt use JUST stats

To evaluate players...

I'm pretty sure BB was quoted as saying he fell in love with Kotsay watching him in the College World Series

A's Fan in Philly

by Duby on Jul 8, 2005 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions

No, he doesn't just use stats.

But you're saying throw out the stats. I'm saying BB WOULDN'T do that. While he might have "fallen in love" with Kotsay, if trading him helps secure our future for 5-7 years or keeping him helps us for 2-3 years, which do you think BB would do? If you think it's the latter, why did we trade Hudson and Mulder? This move is about the future. I'd prefer Kotsay if all things were even, but I'd much rather have Payton for three months and three prospects for the next 7 years.

by gatling on Jul 8, 2005 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions

Actually, even the Bonderman deal

might turn out to be OK in the long run. Think about it: A's got Lilly for 2002 stretch run, and 2003 stretch run (when he was awesome). Plust that great game he pitched against the BloSux in the playoffs.

Then BB turned Lilly into Kielty, who admittedly sucked last year, but is up to par this year and may get better. Who knows what he'll turn Kielty into; maybe another Bonderman, so the jury is still out on that deal. But even if the buck stops with Kielty, I can live with the deal because there is no way Bonderman would have been the same for the 03 squad as Lilly was.

Its just by way of saying: I still trust Billy. I mean its Chad freakin' Bradford after all!

by BruceBochte on Jul 8, 2005 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions

I think it's the other way around

How has CT or Watson proved to be any better than Payton? Payton is a major league player. Granted, CT had a decent year last year, but looked like trash in limited time this year.

I'm the guy with the Carney/Jared Lansford jersey

by gojohn10 on Jul 8, 2005 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions

They're younger...

I certainly hope that whatever else, this isn't a "secure center for the next 5 years" move.

And in that case, you might as well evaluate the talent that you have, and Charles Thomas-- who may well be a 3rd-4th outfielder type (the end-of-A's-tenure-T-Long type), as not quite good enough to land a starting job, but just not-- should get ML time again to prove it. Maybe he just needs a constant stream of ABs?

So they haven't proven to be any better, but they can be better-- and they don't cost you talent.

by Trocmagic on Jul 8, 2005 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions

You're right

Payton would definitely be a stop gap. Just a guy to fill in for the rest of this year, maybe part of next. The important thing is to have someone capable in CF like Payton so the young pitchers don't get frustrated like they would if it was T-Long, ByrnesBrain, or Swisher falling all over themselves in the 3rd most important defensive position on the field. OneBuck Chuck is way to big a risk to be a full time CF right now.

Duby's probably right, Kotsay on the whole is probably better than Payton. But Payton is 1/3 the price and probably 80-90% the player. After all, Kotsay had a career offensive year last year, but he seems to have regressed to his norms this year which are pretty average.

by BruceBochte on Jul 8, 2005 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions

Goddamn it, tried of trade talk

when does the A's game start? I getta get rid of this bad mood I've been in for two days now.

by oaktownmario on Jul 8, 2005 12:44 PM PDT reply actions

Four hours and 20 minutes!!

"People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring." ~Rogers Hornsby

by Kyli on Jul 8, 2005 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions

"gotta"

See, this bad mood is messing up my spelling.

by oaktownmario on Jul 8, 2005 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions

"tired" .... wtf

by oaktownmario on Jul 8, 2005 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions

NO TV

Trade talk is giving me a monster headache

by LongTimeFan on Jul 8, 2005 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions

That means I'll have to suffer through the Hawk

now I'm getting a damn migraine!!! ARGGGGGGGHHHH!! My mute button can't take it!

by oaktownmario on Jul 8, 2005 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions

Isn't this team trying to compete?

It's just one guy, Bradford if he hadn't gotten injured the bullpen could have been hit or miss. I wouldn't want payton in CF and he is older, if indeed sadly one of the outfielders gets traded it's Thomas in the outfield, or Byrnes in center with Swisher in there as well.

You may have the greatest bunch of individual stars in the world, but if they don't play together, the club wont be worth a dime.-Babe Ruth

by doublehustle22 on Jul 8, 2005 1:17 PM PDT reply actions

Anyone else

been following Charles Thomas' precipitous decline at Sacramento? He's now down to .262!

"If there is a fear of falling, the only safety consists in deliberately jumping." -- Carl Jung

by Steve in Napa on Jul 8, 2005 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions

Wow, that sucks

He has 103 Abs, also. 9 Players on the Cats have a better average than him, and it's not like he's getting any XBHs (6 2bs, 2 3bs, and 1 HR). Even with Hudson on the shelf, right now the Braves are winners.

by oaktownmario on Jul 8, 2005 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions

Not so, Mario--

Atlanta's nothing is costing $8,000,000 more than our nothing. Advantage: Oakland.

Nico

by Nico on Jul 8, 2005 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions

So was the deal only about dumping salary?

Because that's news to me. Right now Meyer is barely coming back from injury, and CT and Cruz have been disasters. Slight edge (slight): Atlanta.

by oaktownmario on Jul 8, 2005 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions

I rate that deal

slight edge Atlanta as of this very moment, mainly because Huddy contributed a small amount of positive and Chucky T and Cruz contributed negative. However, every day Huddy stays on the DL and Cruz doesn't stink in the bigs the trade tips our way because we are saving a ton of money on it which is going towards a number of other good players...

by Apricot on Jul 8, 2005 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions

Agreed

Hudson has 6 wins and came out with wins, only to be betrayed by Kolb (sound familiar). So, he has helped his team win more than 6 times, while Cruz and CT probably contributed nothing or negatively to the A's w/l record.

by oaktownmario on Jul 8, 2005 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions

FYI

Hudson should be back to pitch in the 1st or 2nd series after the ASB.

http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050706&content_id=1118506&vk ey=news_atl&fext=.jsp&c_id=atl

by oaktownmario on Jul 8, 2005 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions

the words "salary dump" did come to mind

Beane was determined to trade Huddy. Of course he wanted a big haul for him, but Atlanta refused to part with Giles, which was an initial dealbreaker. Meanwhile he offered Huddy to St Louis for Haren, Calero and Barton, but St. Louis was hesitant.

Beane really, really wanted to trade Huddy. So he called Atlanta back and said Giles wasn't a requirement. Atlanta then did let a top pitching prospect, a reliever and an outfielder go in return for Huddy. St. Louis called Beane back, and Beane said Huddy's gone, but how about Mulder for Haren-Calero-Barton. and the Cards bit.

Anyway, that's how it looks in hindsight. I don't think you can really separate the two trades.

by OaklandSi on Jul 8, 2005 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions

OUt of respectful curiousity

How do you know that is how it went down exactly? Did you read it somewhere?

by BruceBochte on Jul 8, 2005 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions

It's my fictionalized account

of what may have happened. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I'm basing it on the sequence of events as well as some of Beane's statements in interviews about how he had decided to trade Huddy during the offseason as early as August 2004 (and also thought, "well if we trade one, why not two?")

Numerous articles mentioned that the St. Louis trade talks were initially about Huddy, and that Beane restarted the Atlanta talks by dropping the demand for Giles. As to his "sense of urgency" - which he at one point claimed not to feel - in his later interviews he referred to wanting to do the deals before it got too late in the offseason, after most teams would have made their deals.

by OaklandSi on Jul 8, 2005 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions

It was written up that way somewhere as well

The Huddy to Braves "triggered" Mulder to Cards.

Cards felt they couldn't let Mulder slip by also.

"the A's can be consistent winners if they add power vs righties to this offense without hurting the defense. Kearns? ...worth the chance & fits the budget"

by A s Eh on Jul 8, 2005 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions

right, and I did read that one

but I don't have the link.

by OaklandSi on Jul 9, 2005 6:21 AM PDT up reply actions

Yea, I saw that today...

He's terrible.

Bring back Hammer.

by OaktownPower on Jul 8, 2005 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions

Nose Dive!

I'm the guy with the Carney/Jared Lansford jersey

by gojohn10 on Jul 8, 2005 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions

Who gets sent down

when payton gets here?

options:

Ginter (to go work on his swing; downside: no clear back-up for chavy at third)
Gylnn (cause he really isn't in the long-term plan; downside: one less arm in the bullpen and more mop-up innings for yabu)
someone else
another trade (as discussed above) that changes everything

I guess IMHO, I would tend towards sending Ginter down, cause in the long-term it will be great if he starts to hit, and I think that's more likely with regular ABs. Also if Chavy's shoulder acts up again they can always just call him back up and send Gylnn

by wilyc on Jul 8, 2005 3:16 PM PDT reply actions

WHY ???????????

If Payton has all these great #s and is soooo close to Kotsay's ability....Why is Mark earning raves and Jay being dumped??? Why did S.D. trade him??? Why did Boston install him as there prestigious #4 O/F'er than later designate him and his great team spirit for assignment????
A quality player..like Mark..is more than a sum of his stats....and I'm not talk'n about his tools or potential either.

by asfanfordays on Jul 9, 2005 8:31 AM PDT reply actions

I leave for a couple days...

And look what happens! Jeez, I lose internet access for a while and THIS???? JEEZ, sorry. Are you serious? Please tell me no. Please... heart stops

"My motto is I'm fat, but you're ugly, and I can diet." - David Wells

by JLaff on Jul 9, 2005 11:48 AM PDT reply actions

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Athletics Nation -

It's Bradford

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