Beane vs Morgan - the showdown at Moneyball Junction

by david32 on Jul 29, 2005 2:28 PM PDT Comment 31 comments

To copy blueconversechucks's push to influence yesterday's ESPN poll about A's vs. Angels, check out the current poll on ESPN.com (still red states vs. blue states, but at least Billy is Blue).

Only 64 votes as of the posting of this diary, but Billy's leading Joe 52% to 48%.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/index

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As of 5:30pm eastern time,

Joe Morgan leads 52% to 48% with 224 votes. Everyone on this site needs to follow the link and vote for BB. We can't let Joe win this!

For all you groupies looking to get pregnant by an NBA player, good news. Shawn Kemp is planning a comeback-Jim Rome

by gatling on Jul 29, 2005 2:35 PM PDT reply actions

also on espn.com (insider, i think)

This excerpt from a Q & A with Joe Morgan:

Bryan (MD): Hey Joe..just wanted to let you know, I did a survey among baseball front offices to talk to GM's and asked a simple question. So far I've gotten 12 responses, and I did not even ask the A's, Red Sox, Blue Jays, and Dodgers. The question was if they had read Moneyball, by Michael Lewis, and they all had. Don't you want to read this book, even if you disagree with some of it, to see how the A's have been so successful?

Joe Morgan: (5:00 PM ET ) Well, first of all, I don't read a lot of baseball books. I have no desire to read it. I guess to be blunt, I don't really care how teams build their teams. I broadcast games. I think it would be more interesting to read a book from John Scheurholz because of how much they have won. Moneyball is trying to reinvent the wheel. Make no mistake, Billy Beane has done a great job in Oakland, and I've said that, but I disagree when they say stolen bases, defense, manufacturing runs, is not important. I broadcast some of their playoff games and they always waited for the home run that never came. You can get away with that during the season, but when you get to the playoffs you are playing teams as good as you with good pitching. If Moneyball can cure that, then it works. But it hasn't been able to cure that. I'll try to make sure you understand .. during the regular season, you play mediocre teams so you can build up your stats. But you aren't given anything in the playoffs. You won't get 3 walks and then a base hit to drive in runs. You have to manufacture runs.

Joe Morgan: (5:01 PM ET ) I just don't understand why everyone wants me to read it! I think he has sold enough books already! So, what was the result of the survey? They all read it but what did they think? How many championships have those 12 GMs won?

My comment: At least now Joe knows that Moneyball was written by Michael Lewis and not Billy Beane.

by blueconversechucks on Jul 29, 2005 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions

Did

he say moneyball works?

At least for the pesky regular season. So, we could advocate for a 162 game post season?

"I disagree when they say stolen bases, defense, manufacturing runs, is not important."

Since the A's are tops in defense (acording to BP)... that would make us a smallball team? I'm lost.

"In 1930, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives, in an effort to alleviate the effects of the... Anyone? Anyone"

by Parklife on Jul 29, 2005 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions

he thinks.

that michael lewis = billy beane.

let's go oakland [clapclap clapclapclap]

the a's fan lj community.

by Jjjsixsix on Jul 29, 2005 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions

If his concern is padding Michael Lewis'...

...pocket with additional book sales, I'm sure we could find someone on AN willing to send a free copy his way.

by kaiser on Jul 29, 2005 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions

I bet he has been given the book many times

Don't you think? Friends playing jokes have probably given it to him.

by Dog Days on Jul 29, 2005 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions

totally agree.

by kaiser on Jul 29, 2005 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions

How dumb can one man be????

According to the post, Joe Morgan admits to not having read it:

"I just don't understand why everyone wants me to read it!"

As far as I know the term "Moneyball" came about as a direct reference to the book by Michael Lewis.

Soooooooooo.... in the same Q & A, Joe Morgan attempts to define something (Moneyball), tell others about it, with no firsthand knowledge of his own:

"Moneyball is trying to reinvent the wheel......when they say stolen bases, defense, manufacturing runs, is not important. I broadcast some of their playoff games and they always waited for the home run that never came. You can get away with that during the season, but when you get to the playoffs you are playing teams as good as you with good pitching. If Moneyball can cure that, then it works. But it hasn't been able to cure that. "

Huh (scooby sound)?

How does he know what it is trying to reinvent? How does he know whether Moneyball says stolen bases, defense, manufacturing runs, is not important or not?

He is the worst kind, one who admits to not reading but will tell you everything about it. It's like pre-judging an Academy Award winning movie as boring because it's about women's boxing (Million Dollar Baby) and then telling people "I won't see it but I can tell you women shouldn't box and movies like that suck" etc...

by pserralinc on Jul 29, 2005 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions

Really there is only one way to shut

Joe Morgan up and the rest of the critics, that woul dbe to win a WS. Until that happens his point is true. Beane's teams have never won in the play offs. Until we win one we wil hear the critics bash him.

A hot dog at the ball park is better than steak at the Ritz. --Humphrey Bogart

by West Bay A s Fan on Jul 29, 2005 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions

I doubt if even THAT would do it..........

If the A's won the whole thing, he'd probably say it's because we had weak competition or something like that. He's a National League traditionalist / fundamentalist, who probably thinks the DH is blasphemous. And I still say that his feelings about the A's started when he played against them in the '72 series.

Or to put it another way, Joe Morgan is like that older brother or sister; who no matter how successful a person you become will always see you as an annoying little brat.

Perhaps he has deeper issues, but we're not Dr. Phil, and we're not going to win him over, so let's move on.

by Rob on Jul 29, 2005 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions

who cares

the lower we fly under the radar the sweeter it will be when we win it all!

Jason Kendall reminds me of those ballplayers Bugs Bunny used to play against, except not as big --- mrs. gojohn10

by gojohn10 on Jul 29, 2005 2:40 PM PDT reply actions

Come on, folks...vote!

We can't let Joe Morgan embarrass Billy Beane on a national website, even if it's a flawed website and a flawed poll and what exactly is the Moneyball philosophy, anyway, and are all of its tenets mutually exclusive from small ball?

That's my rant. But go vote. Billy must win.

by Dog Days on Jul 29, 2005 2:41 PM PDT reply actions

780 votes

and Joe has 54%....

"In 1930, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives, in an effort to alleviate the effects of the... Anyone? Anyone"

by Parklife on Jul 29, 2005 2:46 PM PDT reply actions

Joe Morgan

is an idiot! He's Ray Ratto's brother.

by Fongpay on Jul 29, 2005 2:47 PM PDT reply actions

It's the south

fun to click over that map and see where all the idiots live...

by Dog Days on Jul 29, 2005 2:48 PM PDT reply actions

FLA

its too close to call.

"In 1930, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives, in an effort to alleviate the effects of the... Anyone? Anyone"

by Parklife on Jul 29, 2005 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions

More from the Joe Morgan Q & A

(this was further down the page):

Bill (Memphis): Now I know why the A's fans don't like you...thanks! (just having fun with ya, Joe)

Joe Morgan: (5:07 PM ET ) But I agree! I think a lot of people have a problem with me having an opionion but I"m entitled to that! Just because I don't agree with it, don't be mad at me! I'm not mad at them! But I still have this problem in saying that the A's don't have money .. the Angels and Twins had a low payroll when they have been successful .. it's not just about the money. Just the way the A's are set up, they will be successful in the regular season and not as successful in the postseason. The Braves won 13 division titles and one championship .. something is wrong with that. But would you rather be the Marlins (not consistent with a ring), A's (no ring) or Braves (one ring)?

Joe Morgan: (5:07 PM ET ) If the A's win a championship using the Moneyball philosphy, I'll agree with them. But over the test of time, that philosophy has not won a championship.

Joe Morgan: (5:08 PM ET ) Remember, I LIVE in Oakland. So I love the A's! I pulled for them during those playoff games!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
James (Spokane WA): I do have to hand it to you you have always stuck to your guns about your opinions on baseball and how the game should be played

Joe Morgan: (5:10 PM ET ) Thank you for understanding that! It's not personal. I was brought up a certain way in this game and that philosophy has always worked. Until I see a philosphy that works better, I'll stick to mine!

To all those Moneyball people out there, when I retire from broadcasting, I promise I will read a page or two. Not sure I will get much farther than that! ; )

Thanks for all the great questions! We'll talk again next Friday!

My comment: Although I think it's foolish for Joe to not read 'Moneyball,' since besides everything else it's a great baseball book and a really fun read, he does have a point. I hope no Oakland Athletic is satisfied until we win it all. And I hope all the talk I hear about being 'in it' this year, doesn't just mean in the playoff race, but the race for the World Series crown.

by blueconversechucks on Jul 29, 2005 2:51 PM PDT reply actions

Morgan must be right

I mean look at last year's champions. They were always stealing bases, manufacturing runs, had incredible fielding at every position, especially left field, and never lived and died by the home run.

Bizarro world am fun!

by Apricot on Jul 29, 2005 2:52 PM PDT reply actions

Remember...

the stolen base in game 4 was THE MOST IMPORTANT.

let's go oakland [clapclap clapclapclap]

the a's fan lj community.

by Jjjsixsix on Jul 29, 2005 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions

yep

a stolen base against a closer. They're usually pretty tough to steal against. That was the most important play of the year. Bill Mueller's hit to drive him in paled in comparison. So did David Ortiz's home run to win it.

by Dog Days on Jul 29, 2005 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions

[scoff]

lesanic was more important than the sb.

let's go oakland [clapclap clapclapclap]

the a's fan lj community.

by Jjjsixsix on Jul 29, 2005 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions

I want to read Joe Morgan's manifesto

I guess his book outlines his philosophy? Otherwise, I've never seen a definitive explanation of his philosophy that supposedly works.

How, exactly does it work? Do you always steal bases when you have a good baserunner on first? Do you always let the pitcher pitch until his arm falls off? Do you always bunt if runners are on first and second and nobody is out (unless there's a "run producer" at the plate)? What exactly is his philosophy?

by Dog Days on Jul 29, 2005 2:56 PM PDT reply actions

i take it as...

(unless there's a "run producer" at the plate) should read (even if there's a "run producer" at the plate)

let's go oakland [clapclap clapclapclap]

the a's fan lj community.

by Jjjsixsix on Jul 29, 2005 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions

Blue States & Red States

Well this is depressing...other than the exchange of Illinois and the rest of the mid-west for Kentucky, TN, and the Virginias it's starting to look a whole lot like the 2004 electoral college map.

by david32 on Jul 29, 2005 3:22 PM PDT reply actions

Where's the poll?

All is see is one asking who's most likely to make a trade.

A Beane in the hand is worth $60M in payroll

by jeepers on Jul 29, 2005 3:57 PM PDT reply actions

Looks like they dumped it

Beane must have been catching up.

Why does everybody stand up and sing "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" when they're already there? ~Larry Anderson

by lansfords1 on Jul 29, 2005 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions

Diebold did it!

It's tough out there, Pootie. You got drugs ... crime ... gorillas ...

by monkeyball on Jul 29, 2005 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions

I think this is all geting too personal

for Little Joe.

To bad, because he has brought most of it on himself.

I'm sure he, or someone associated with the broadcasts, had the poll lifted.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Jul 29, 2005 4:21 PM PDT reply actions

Come to think of it...

...I'm surprised that poll was even posted in the first place!

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by FormerHuntsvilleStar on Jul 29, 2005 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions

yes we havent won a WS

But Billy Beane said it himself: My only job is to get us to the playoffs, whatever happens after that is out of my control

Don't knock Billy Beane because we havent won a WS, I'd say knock the big three.

Regardless, I still wouldnt trade anything for anything, I still love being an Athletics fan and I love how we go about our business.

by WhatElse on Jul 29, 2005 11:44 PM PDT reply actions

Billy won 2 WS...

on the bench with the Twins in '87 and A's in '89. Do those count?

*If a team or player can't be a sucess w/o winning a WS, does winning one make a team or player a sucess? Beane won 2 as a player, does that make his career a sucess? The D-Backs won a WS, does that mean that franchise is a sucess?

No, I do not want to FIRE MACHA NOW, nor do I think Blanton is fat. Now leave me alone.

by pbruins92 on Jul 30, 2005 8:17 AM PDT reply actions