Oakland Tribune Rant
While usually I just read the chronicle, I thought I would stumble over to the oakland tribune for some more A's news. Ive never heard of Dave Del Grande before but I read his article "The A's and Giants should hit for '06".
I was shocked that an Oakland paper would be so down on the A's, and so high on the crappy giants.
A's
"It's important, though, that the A's play for'06 -- as was the game plan from the time Tim Hudson and Mark Mulder were dealt -- rather than foolishly get caught up selling out for a miracle run at this year's wild-card spot."
Giants
"If Bonds is back by Aug. 10, it says here the Giants can still catch the Padres, especially with a closing stretch -- three at Colorado, four at San Diego, three at home against Arizona -- that has "come-from-behind" written all over it."
While I didnt expect the A's to win the division this year, The A's have a far better shot at winning than the giants.
This guy has some other ridiculous comments including a Zito trade.
"Presuming the report on Bonds at the trade deadline is encouraging, I strongly suggest Sabean get Billy Beane on the phone and offer up Jesse Foppert and his choice of catcher and second baseman from the Giants' minor league system in exchange for Zito."
I just dont understand how this is the top story in an OAKLAND newspaper after the A's just swept the team with the best record in baseball.
Read the article here.
0 recs |
117 comments
Comments
The NL west is a weak division...
by Rob on Jul 11, 2005 3:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This guy's article...
by Carney4ever on Jul 11, 2005 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
Its like he wants the giants to succeed and A's fail.
by pickinmachine on Jul 11, 2005 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the Author replied..to my email
The signing of Kotsay assures the A's can't keep Kendall's big salary next season.
Suzuki stinks.
And Powell's not ready"
There you have it.. Right from the horse's mouth.
by Carney4ever on Jul 11, 2005 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LMAO!!!
Suzuki stinks?!?!?!? HAHAHAHAH!!! Earth to planet Dave, earth to planet Dave, Powell is hurt, I repeat, Powell is hurt!!!
by saint on Jul 11, 2005 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow...
What an idiot. Oh, and the A's are $5 million below 2004 salary. So, I would bet the budget is higher than the current salary level.
by Donner on Jul 11, 2005 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Make sure you "cc" his sports editor
Jon Becker - ANG Sports Editor, Oakland Tribune
jbecker@angnewspapers.com
(925) 416-4803
by sf drift king on Jul 11, 2005 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
foppert
by AlwaysSweatin on Jul 12, 2005 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah... dude doesn't seem to know much
by spiffyjwc on Jul 11, 2005 3:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Plus Beane wants to keep Kendall!!!
He could then sign for 4 milayear as a DH when he is 36!!!
by saint on Jul 11, 2005 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This guy needs to tie himself to Monty Poole:
He has got to be the lamest writer of all-time. I hate the guys writing.
Preparing for 06?!?!? Does 4 1/2 out of the WC and 7 1/2 behind ANA (With 13 games remaining against them) mean anything to this absolute idiot?
And how does the Giants losing 2-3 at HOME to the Cards compare to the A's going INTO Chicago and sweeping the team with the best record in the AL?
Answer - IT DOESN'T NUMBNUTS!!!
by saint on Jul 11, 2005 3:23 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yo Saint
This guy used to be a frequent guest on the Gregg Papa show several years back and he is a very smarmish and egotistical jackass.
"Pay no attention to the man behind the green curtain!"
by mrod on Jul 12, 2005 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is horrible
by rook on Jul 11, 2005 3:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Unbelievable
I open the Sac Bee this morning, and surprise, surprise, the A's are buried on Page 5 as usual. The front page has the Giants. I even got to read what JT Snow thinks about Barry Bonds' return, or lack thereof. Very nice.
OTOH, the A's sweep the best team in baseball (record wise), in a thrilling game, and this was all the coverage that game got:
CHICAGO - With the next three days off, the A's could reflect on their recent accomplishments that have put them back in the playoff mix entering the All-Star break.
They'd probably rather relax, particularly after a draining 9-8 victory in 11 innings over the Chicago White Sox Sunday afternoon that lasted 3 hours and 47 minutes.
The A's won all three games against the White Sox, who have the major league's best record. It was the A's first road sweep since last August. The A's (44-43) have won 17 of 21 games and are above .500 for the first time since May 1.
Nick Swisher's RBI double in the 11th provided the game's final run. Huston Street allowed a leadoff single in the bottom of the inning before retiring the final three hitters.
Swisher's two-out, ninth-inning solo homer put the A's ahead 8-6. But the White Sox scored twice in the bottom half off Street, who blew his fourth save and set career-highs in innings (3 1/3) and pitches (43).
"Our goal was to get to .500," Swisher said. "Now we're one game above. It doesn't get any better than that."
http://www.sacbee.com/content/sports/baseball/oak_athletics/story/13214191p-14057161c.html
Have I mention it was on Page 5?
Maybe the game coverage was so measly because the Bee also ran a short article on Lewis Wolff. Yep, the A's got enough coverage for a week.
by AsGirl on Jul 11, 2005 3:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Let's not forget this gem...
by baseballgirl on Jul 11, 2005 3:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
OMG... what moron wrote that?
by AsGirl on Jul 11, 2005 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same guy
by baseballgirl on Jul 11, 2005 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
Different if you question a starter's stats, but poor Duke was a first-timer and he was happy just to warm the bench! Was he keeping somebody else out of that spot? Isn't every MLB team allowed to have 1 guy?
by streetfan on Jul 12, 2005 11:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My letter to Dave Del Dumbass:
You are supposed to be a reporter but you came off as a know nothing dimwit.
1) You say that the A's should package Barry Zito for a Mulderlike package and then say that a Foppert, minor league catcher or 2B would work.
Hmmmmmm??? Haren is better and less injury prone than Foppert.
Calero is batter than any reliever the Giants have to deal.
Barton is a better hitting prospect than anyone thier organization.
By the way, barry Zito is back to his Cy Young level. If you think I am a homer for saying this, just ask Frank Thomas and his knees how Barry's curve looks right now.
2) Then you talk about moving Kendall this winter.
Have you not noticed that the guy is getting on base at a near .450 clip of late, has raised his average to .281, and has handled a young pitching staff that has a 2.47 ERA for the last month!?!?
Also, have you not ever showed up for any A's press conferences, including the one where Beane said in response to the money Kendall was making that he would like to see play out his contract and perhaps stay longer?
- You compare the Giants losing 2 of 3 to the Cardinals, AT HOME, to the A's sweeping the team with the best record in the AL ON THE ROAD!
- You say that the A's should build for 2006 then mention trading Zito in the same breath. Yet, the Ginats should hold onto Schmidt?!?!? That is so laughable. Just how would you replace Barry Zito?
Juan Cruz - 4 starts in AAA, 2.05 ERA, 32 Ks in 22 innings only 8 walks and an opposing teams BA of .187 ish.
Dallas Braden - 7-3 for Midland with an ERA around 3.00. Beane is high on him.
Jason Windsor - ERA around 2.5, with a 32-8 K to BB rate. You may remember him from his college WS play, yet I doubt that because you seem to think that we need a young catcher although Kurt Suzuki is one of the best in the minors. And Suzuki caught Windsor at Fullerton that year.
Dan Meyer - A supposed can't miss prospect, much like the guys you would want in the Zito deal. he is getting ripped this year in AAA.
I could go on and on, but it is just a waste of my own brainspace. Just let me say that your article today should have been about the resurgent A's who have the same record as in 2001 when they won over 100 games and that there is excitement brewing in Oakland that seems to happen every year about this time.
If you'd like I can ghost write your articles for you. That way you won't come off as such a dumb ass.
Thank You,
SaintOakland
by saint on Jul 11, 2005 3:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
did he..
by Carney4ever on Jul 11, 2005 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL, awesome!
by AsGirl on Jul 11, 2005 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Send the editor this thread as evidence... :)
by saint on Jul 11, 2005 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Good job.
by conniemack on Jul 11, 2005 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please correct the spelling and some grammar:
by saint on Jul 11, 2005 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh. My. God.
Grr.
by AsGirl on Jul 11, 2005 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the way, Nick Peters had this gem
It isn't fair
A's GM Billy Beane trades Tim Hudson and Mark Mulder, and his young pitching thrives. Giants GM makes great free-agent signings in Moises Alou, Omar Vizquel and Mike Matheny, and his team takes a plunge. Go figure.
This is a moronic statement. Absolutely moronic from a guy who sleeps in Giants underoos every night. Could you think that maybe the A's didn't sign guys whose collective age didn't add up to 111 years old total...a catcher whose career average is .239 and OBP is.294? Alou can still hit, and Vizquel can too, but really we tried to tell you this before the season started, Nick.
by Tyler Bleszinski on Jul 11, 2005 8:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
get angry Blez!!
by gojohn10 on Jul 11, 2005 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be sure, it is an unfair game.
by ArakSOT on Jul 12, 2005 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm writing to the Bee Sports Editor
I want to ask him how they determine the amount of coverage each Bay Area Baseball team receives, etc.
by AsGirl on Jul 12, 2005 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well done.
by RLangford on Jul 11, 2005 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Turn 2 is going to run my e-mail!!!
please see the note BELOW your e-mail.
We'd like to run your letter (or at least some highlights from it), but we
need your city and your OK ... and you might want to send a shorter version.
thanks.
by saint on Jul 11, 2005 4:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Congrats! That was an awesome email!
by baseballgirl on Jul 11, 2005 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope they print them all:
by saint on Jul 11, 2005 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice email!
by high street on Jul 11, 2005 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Del Grande
I know that doesn't excuse him from writing half-assed drivel about the local baseball teams, but that could explain a bit of why he's writing at all. They need to find a gig for him when they aren't playing hoops.
by Dog Days on Jul 11, 2005 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are correct Dog Days
by china bob on Jul 12, 2005 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dave's response to me:
Dave,
Maybe I'm a little confused. Maybe you're a NL guy and haven't been watching the A's very closely this year, but to even think about comparing the A's and the Giants teams right now makes me laugh out loud.
I must say; however, that it's impressive that you picked the A's to finish the season over .500. Most other sportswriters wouldn't even give them that, but you did. And you'll be right.
Maybe you missed the terrible, injury-ridden May that the A's had. Maybe you missed the horrendous start by Eric Chavez, and the abysmal offense that led to abysmal pitching records. Everyone on the team either a) was injured or b) sucked until June, except for one star player who kept the team in close games, who filled in for an injured Huston Street and saved 4 games in a week, who pitched any role he was asked to, and did it all well. That man was Justin Duchscherer and completely deserves his shot at the All Star Game.
You mocked the choice, called it an "embarrassment". I'd like to know who your choice would have been! Chavez? Nope, even he admits his slow start helped bury the team. Zito? That would be a close one for me, but you know as well as I do that no pitcher with a 6-8 record is going to get in, no matter how deceiving that record happens to be. Harden? Nope, didn't play enough due to the injury, or would have been the obvious choice. Blanton, Haren, Saarloos? Too inconsistent. Kendall? Yeah, no. Kotsay? Again, a close call, and might have been a good pick, but his offense hasn't been anywhere near All-Star caliber, even if his defense is among the lead leaders. Crosby? Injured, otherwise, nice choice. Kielty? Hot with the bat, but inconsistent with the D. Street? If he hadn't been injured and could have saved the games during that stretch, probably could have made a case for it. Swisher, Scutaro, Ellis, Ginter, Calero, Rincon, Byrnes? Nope. It really came down to Duchscherer or Kotsay. Take another look at Duke's numbers. W/L 4-1. Saves: 4. ERA: 1.49, and 1.23 over his last 10 games. Stupendous for as much as he's worked. He's a natural starter, who can also go long relief or close, and who was everything for the A's when no one else was. He deserves better than your commentary.
Plus, who in Oakland really cares about the All Star game? This team is focusing all of its energies on the actual baseball season, and they are playing as a team. Everything has been a team effort with them, from losing almost every game until they were left for dead in May, to winning almost every game in June/July capped with a sweep of the highly-touted White Sox on the road to get up and over the .500 mark.
By comparison, the Giants are 13 games under .500, almost as low as where the A's were a month ago, before they got their real team back together, before they started playing real baseball, before they started proving themselves as a real team. You are correct in saying that this A's team was built for 2006, yet be careful not to write off 2005 too early. They sit one game over .500, 4 1/2 games behind Minnesota in the Wild Card hunt, and 7 1/2 games behind the Angels, whom they play 13 more times before the season's end.
The Giants do have the weaker division, but also the weaker team. They have no chance at a run and they know it.
The A's; however, know no such thing. See: 2001. It's baseball; anything can happen and usually does. Are the A's serious contenders for 2006? You bet. But I would argue that it's still a little too early to write them completely off for 2005.
Sincerely,
Christy Hofmann
Los Angeles, CA
baseballgirl1976@hotmail.com
baseballgirl on www.athleticsnation.com
His response:
This is Dave Del Grande. You make some very good points. Just wanted to clarify some things I said:
- I didn't exactly compare the A's and Giants, just to say both have excellent chances in 2006 unless they screw things up at the trade deadline this year. If they A's sell out to win this year (trading, say, Barton for immediate help), that would be a mistake. And if the Giants give up on the season (trading, say, Schmidt for prospects) that would be a mistake. In both cases, those moves would compromise their chances for next season.
- I have nothing against Duchscherer. He's been very good this year. But let's not get carried away with his numbers. He's been placed in low-pressure situations almost all season as the A's felt more comfortable using Dotel and now Street when it counts. There's no way he's an All-Star. Sending him ahead of Kotsay was a huge slap in the face. But my bigger point was: When a team like the A's has no legitimate representative, they shouldn't send anyone. The All-Star Game becomes a joke when guys like Duchscherer - and a handful of others this season - are invited.
- There's no way the A's are going to make the playoffs this year. They have NO CHANCE of finishing ahead of the Yankees. And Angels, for that matter. But that doesn't matter. If the A's keep playing like they're playing, missing the playoffs won't be a big setback. After all, this was supposed to be a rebuilding year. As long as they go into 2006 with their same young nucleus and with the momentum of a strong showing in 2005, they should once again battle for the top spot in the AL West.
by baseballgirl on Jul 11, 2005 4:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What I think...
I'm sure Duke might argue that he's been in a few close games this year. Low-pressure? Are you kidding me AGAIN?
And while he's right about the A's rebuilding this year, I'm kind of insulted that he thinks we couldn't finish ahead of the Yankees.
by baseballgirl on Jul 11, 2005 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff, baseballgirl
But I think he's flat wrong that the A's have "NO CHANCE" to beat out the Yankees or Angels this year. I hope you're keeping that reply so you can remind him of it at year's end if things work out the way we hope they will (and you can discreetly delete it then if the A's don't manage to finish ahead of either of those teams).
The Yankees are an awfully volatile team this year. They could go on a big run, but they could also fall to pieces in a really ugly way. Well, it wouldn't be ugly to my eyes, but you know what I mean.
by Faust on Jul 12, 2005 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he's missing the point BBG!!! LMAO!!!
by saint on Jul 11, 2005 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dumb
I think the giants SHOULD trade Schmidt. They could notch a deal similar to Mulder maybe. He thinks they should put up 10 million for a pitcher that has been hurt most of the year and ineffective as well. I dont see how keeping Schmidt is gearing up for '06. There is just no logic to this guy.
The All-Star Game becomes a joke when guys like Duchscherer - and a handful of others this season - are invited.
I think that newspapers become a joke when guys like Del Grande are printed!
by pickinmachine on Jul 11, 2005 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
His follow-up comments,
I love Duke, but I don't see him as an all-star. Not yet, anyway. I'm sooooooooooo freakin' stoked for him, but if we can't send a REAL all-star (Kotsay) then it seems lame. I know, it's because Francona only got to one position player and four pitchers... The all-star game is a joke, so no matter.
This third bullet is a bust. The only people who called 2005 a "rebuilding year" were sports writers and talking heads (i.e. Damn Fools).
That said, it's too bad when writers have to clarify their earlier statements. Couldn't he get it right the first time?
by eebie on Jul 11, 2005 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Congratulations, BBG
Good work, yet again.
One thing, though, I do tend to agree with Del Grande about the All-Star selection process. The Duke has arguably been the A's MVP, but an All-Star? Not unless each team has to be represented.
Also, I think it will be tough to finish ahead of the Yankees, Twins, et al. But I DO NOT think the Yankees are a lock to be the Wild Card, and I don't think it's too ludicrous to think the A's could make a run at it.
I've noticed in all of baseballgirl's banter with the local writers that they seem much more reasonable with their email analysis. Why can't their columns be that good?
by Dog Days on Jul 11, 2005 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aren't you sweet!
And are you hiring? ;)
by baseballgirl on Jul 11, 2005 6:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope, sorry
:)
Keep up the good work. I think your next target should be Slusser. Not that she ever says anything out of line, I'd just like to see if you can get her to respond to you, too.
by Dog Days on Jul 11, 2005 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Duke is an All-Star because:
In fact, in this game someone will need to be held out if it goes into deep exrtra innings. Someone that can pitch multiple innings of relief effectively or close once all of the "closers" are burnt. The duke gives them options.
I say this because had Francona went the traditional route and taken the All-Star of the A's he would have taken Barry Zito or Eric Chavez.
Zito has pitched in two All-Star games already, won a Cy Young and has been in the post season numerous times at 27.
4 weeks ago this notion would havebe laughable but Barry has regained his Cy Young form and may just be the best Big Game pitcher in the AL right now. He took Behrle down twice in a week giving up 3 in two starts.
Then there is Eric Chavez who is more famous than the Duke and is one of the most deserving "never to be named" All-Stars. What else does he have to do? He wins GGs every year, led the league in BBs last year after missing 6 weeks, is a perenial 30 HR 100 RBI guy and has been a integral piece of every A's team's run since 1999! You'd think he wouldhave made one by now.
Yet, Francona went with "need" over who deserved it. Duke is an All-Star because he is at the top of his class in his classification which is very valuable to the make-up of a team in 2005. That is all.
by saint on Jul 12, 2005 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hear you
by Dog Days on Jul 12, 2005 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Chavez
by easyraider on Jul 12, 2005 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't have much to add
by Melody on Jul 11, 2005 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can tell you
Whereas in the past, you would definitely know it's game day.
by sf drift king on Jul 11, 2005 7:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're missing his points:
Okay, so he shouldn't have said there is NO WAY we won't catch the Angels and Yankees. But it's going to be hard considering the money those two owners can spend, and the margin we have to close in the case of the Angels.
by Rob on Jul 12, 2005 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baseball girl, that was a fabulous letter
by china bob on Jul 12, 2005 11:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Giants '06 Contenders?
Writing off the A's seems pretty standard for most sports journalists. I mean, its a young team that will go through its ups and downs blah blah blah. What I find most confusing about this article is how he says the Giants could be contenders next season. I think that possibillity hinges on a lot of big ifs.
IF #1 - Bonds
Well obviously they need Bonds be healthy for at least a big chunk of 2006 to be in contention. His injury this season is crippling the whole team. Considering how slow his rehab has been already, should we really assume his body will hold up for a majority of next year, especially considering DHing is not an option?
#2 - Starting Pitching
Uh... who are these starting pitchers that will enable the giants to contend. If schmidt, who has had his own ups and downs, stays on the team (which i think is likely) then you have 1 solid top of the rotation guy. But reuter, tomko, fassero, lowry have all had major struggles this year. With the exception of lowry, you shouldn't assume those guys will make great improvements next year? Maybe the thought is that with bonds around, run support will skyrocket... see #1.
#3 - Relief Pitching
Before the giants aquired Armando Benitez, I recall a lot injury possibility in his scouting report. And then he's out for multiple months right after the season starts. Why should I believe he'll be healthy for most of next year. And if Armando is not healthy, then Latroy Hawkins will again be a waste unless you find another closer so you can use him as the solid setup man he is.
So, the Giant could have a shot next year with a lot of good luck. On the other hand, the A's will in all likelyhood have a more matured version of this year's team next year. And I don't mean mature in the same way you would describe Bonds, Grissom, Fassero, Snow, Visquel, Matheny, Alou, Rueter, Christiansen.
by panchopunch on Jul 11, 2005 5:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
you guys know what?
by Jjjsixsix on Jul 11, 2005 6:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I guess I'm alone
The A's are quite a ways back from going to the playoffs. It would be a stretch for them to make it this year. As such, they shouldn't sacrifice their future (ie: trading Daric Barton) to get a solid bat for a run at this year's playoffs. We should be positioning ourselves to contend in 2006 and beyond. In other words, lets not throw away our future for a slim chance at winning this year.
Which is exactly what Beane has done.
If we can make a trade that had results like our Mulder trade, go for it. Dave is saying try not to make a trade like the one we did for Hudson.
We need to be realistic about the A's. Sometimes that means having to hear truths that are hard to take. But ignoring those doesn't mean those truths don't exist.
by limecat on Jul 11, 2005 10:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, I see what you're saying...
The way Zito is pitching I don't think it's worth trading him for any realistic package that another GM would offer.
As Beane said, "we're always buyers AND sellers at the deadline, a lot of people don't realize that" He would only make a trade that would both help this year's team, with an eye on the future, (i.e. signability) OR give up a prospect he's hyped up for just that purpose that won't amount to much. (i.e Joe Valentine)
My beef with him is that he doesn't give the A's any credit on what they've achieved so far, then makes mundane recomendations that most of us on AN, let alone Billy the maestro would dare cock up.
by FireballerHARDEN on Jul 11, 2005 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A hell of a comeback...
Dotel & Durazo = ~19% of 2005 payroll
We are doing it with rookies, Swish, Blanton, Johnson, Haren (sort of), Street, have all played huge roles. We are only 4.5 games out of the wildcard, and 7.5 back of the gayngels.
The sky is the limit...granted we might not ascend all the way this year, but we've still achieved alot IMO.
by FireballerHARDEN on Jul 11, 2005 11:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A huge hole to climb out of, too
by limecat on Jul 12, 2005 1:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
'Gayngels'
by iglew on Jul 12, 2005 3:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
clearly it's a reference to mark gayn
by xbhaskarx on Jul 12, 2005 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
sure
Beane knows this is a rebuilding year, he even says, dont write us off in '05 but I like us even better in '06.
A 'Hudson' offseason trade is totally irrelevant to a midseason trade.
My beef is with an Oakland paper talking about '06 when the A's just swept the White Sox (best record in baseball). Oh ya and saying that if there was a chance its the Giants and not the A's.
This whole thing just seems to run the same course as the city of Oakland supporting the A's.
by pickinmachine on Jul 11, 2005 11:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're not alone
Justin Duchscherer, for all his merits, should NOT be an All Star. Period. He's a middle reliever, plain and simple. You can be the best middle reliever in history and, at least in my opinion, you simply haven't impacted the game enough by way of your being a middle reliever to merit an All Star selection.
On top of that, if the Giants came up to me, and I were Billy Beane, and said "here's Jesse Foppert, and two GOOD major league ready prospects, we want Barry Zito" I'd probably be inclined to take that offer. Now, the Giants DON'T have any good major league ready prospects, but that's not the point. The point is that a deal like that would make sense.
And, as nice as it is to hope, to be honest, the A's PROBABLY won't make the Playoffs. Can they? Sure, anythings possible. But they have to basically outplay two out of three of the Angels, Twins, and Yankees by 5 or 6 games or whatever it is for the rest of the season, and I just don't see that happening. With such a young squad, there's bound to be another down streak left in them.
Dave Del Grande's written some pretty dumb stuff before, but this, to me at least, seemed like on of his more reasonable/well thought out columns.
by walk off bunt on Jul 12, 2005 1:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well thought out?
by Carney4ever on Jul 12, 2005 5:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ridiculous
Sabean is going to have to reap what he's sown, and he and Coletti did a great job of patching holes the last 6 or 7 years to stay competitive. But they have nothing in their system to use for re-building, that's whey they're the anti-A's. Billy Beane is proactive in stocking his farm system, Brian Sabean treats his young guys like yo-yo's between Fresno and San Francisco, then trades away anybody with promise to fill a hole on the major league roster with the Kenny Loftons of the world. It's worked well till now, but he can't have somebody like Barry Zito with the chips he's left himself.
by Dog Days on Jul 12, 2005 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea
What I do take issue with is the fact that they are somehow high on the Giants. Did we not own their asses 16-0? Did we not win the season series and close them out with a sweep? Did we not just batter the best team in baseball, while they're still floundering?
And that Zito trade is straight up laughable. Jesse Foppert? Lessee... Jerome Williams... Kurt Ainsworth... somehow I don't have much faith in their pitching "prospects". I'm half expecting Matt Cain and Merkin Valdes to burn out and be out of the game by 2008.
by dchu on Jul 11, 2005 10:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He's got a point about All-Stars
The fact is, none of our guys deserved to be in the All-Star Game this year. There's no great shame in that. For the first half, we're a 500 team. We had some really great moments, but we also had some really dreadful moments. Not only that, but our team is pretty well balanced, so that both the good and the bad are evenly spread out among the players. If you're a crappy team with one great player, then maybe you've got an all-star. If you're a pretty good team with a lot of pretty good players, then maybe you don't have an all-star.
We don't have an all-star this year. We had a lot of guys who might have been, but none of them quite jelled as All-Star this year -- whether because of an early season slump, or a lengthy injury, or just because they played pretty good but not quite as good as others in the league in the same position.
Being named to the All-Star game should really mean something. I love Duke as much as any A's fan, but sending him this year does demean the designation. Del Grande overstates the case a bit -- as sportswriters always do -- but it really is an embarrassment, and it does show why the rule requiring a player from each team is stupid.
by iglew on Jul 12, 2005 3:28 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
giving Duke his props!
and in regards to walk off bunt: "Justin Duchscherer, for all his merits, should NOT be an All Star. Period. He's a middle reliever, plain and simple. You can be the best middle reliever in history and, at least in my opinion, you simply haven't impacted the game enough by way of your being a middle reliever to merit an All Star selection." i respond to this by stating the obvious, being a middle reliever u are forced to face tougher situations that impact the game more so than simply pitching the final inning only when your team is winning. coming into a game when go ahead runners are on base and facing the opposing team's best hitter is a far more important situation, even if it's the 7th; as oppose to starting the 9th up a couple of runs. people very much over value the save stat.
i can't understand the lack of respect for Duke. he's done everything the team has asked from him, which has included far more roles than i think the other all-star relievers could have successfully accomplished. he's been asked to fulfill so many roles, b/c at different times it is more important for a reliever to accomplish different tasks, but w/Duke we know we can call on him to successfully handle the important situation no matter what or when. he's definitely an all-star, to say other wise is simply DAMN WRONG
by F171615 on Jul 12, 2005 6:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and how quickly we forget
by captainamerica on Jul 12, 2005 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You HAD to go there. ;)
by baseballgirl on Jul 12, 2005 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
Is that fair? Probably not, since, as you point out, the Duke is tearing it up this season. But Eric Chavez has never been an All-Star, and I think most teams in the league would take him over their current third baseman in a heartbeat. I do not think it's ludicrous to say that The Duke wouldn't be an All-Star without that rule. He has done a phenomenal job for the A's, I love having him on the team, I'm happy for him that he is being recognized this way, but I don't think it's DAMN WRONG to say he wouldn't be an All-Star without that rule.
by Dog Days on Jul 12, 2005 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
All Star definition
Of course, my opinion of the All Star game took a sharp downturn when I found out that Chris Carpenter would be starting for the NL. Are you kidding me? Hmmmmmm I just can't decide. Clemmons or Willis? Willis or Clemmons? Ahh heck, this is hurting my brain. Let's just simplify the whole process and go with MY GUY.
by batgirl on Jul 12, 2005 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Del Grande Reflects the Trib
by reztips on Jul 12, 2005 7:31 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Blez, I think it's time you ban this troll.
I say give him the the boot.
by McFood on Jul 12, 2005 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I often wonder
by ArakSOT on Jul 12, 2005 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't know about banning...
by xbhaskarx on Jul 12, 2005 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If "average" is "bad"
by ArakSOT on Jul 12, 2005 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, it's a little strange
by xbhaskarx on Jul 12, 2005 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
See, now "lame" I would use...
by ArakSOT on Jul 12, 2005 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
what's the word for that:
by rubin sierra on Jul 12, 2005 8:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are not an "Oakland" fan...
by saint on Jul 12, 2005 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My second response:
Hey, thanks for writing back! I actually liked your reply a lot better than your column. Maybe you should just cover the A's, instead!
Okay, first point. Do you really think that Billy Beane, who took such care in assembling an A's team for the future, even at the expense of two superstars, would make such a rash move as to get rid of Barton just for a chance at the 2005 playoffs? Absolutely not; don't worry. The A's already have a chance at the playoffs, and it will be good experience for the rookies to play this season out, and anything they accomplish above .500 is gravy. I still think you assume an awful lot about the Giants next season for them to be contenders, but the A's are set for the next three years at least, and maybe beyond.
Second point. Like I said in my previous email; no one in the Oakland fan base cares at all about the All Star game. The Athletics Nation posted over 40 diaries in the last 24 hours and not one of them had anything to do with the All Star game. The game is pointless, and obviously choosing players for the team is completely arbitrary and pointless as well. No one from the A's should be going, but they need a representative, and Duke is it, and he NOT an "embarrassment". Do you know that out of the All Star pool of relievers, only Marino Rivera has a lower ERA and WHIP? And as for your assertation that Duke only pitches in low-pressure situations? No offense, but you couldn't be more wrong. A's fans trust only two relievers to close out tight games; Duchscherer and Street. Duchscherer is the back-up closer, and would be the closer if Street hadn't made it in the big leagues. Want proof? Here's Duchscherer's last 10 game appearances, close games are starred:
*7-10 - Came into the bottom of the 7th, score 7-5 A's
*7-8 - Pitched the 7th and 8th, score 3-2 A's
*7-5 - Pitched the 10th and 11th, score 7-7, picked up the win
*7-2 - Came in to relieve Rincon, A's down 3-2.
*6-30 - Came into the 7th, to relieve Rincon, score 4-2 A's
6-29 - Pitched the 9th inning, score 6-2 A's
*6-24 - Pitched the 9th inning, score 4-3 A's, got the save
*6-22 - Came into the 9th, score 3-2 A's, blew the save
*6-21 - Pitched 1.2 innings for the save, score 4-2 A's
*6-19 - Pitched the 9th for the save, score 5-3 A's
As you can see, only one of his last 10 appearances was in a "low-pressure" situation, and it was only a 4 run lead for the A's.
Last point: I find it interesting that you brought up the Yankees, as if they were leading the Wild Card. How the A's will do in relation to them remains to be seen, but I think there are better Wild Card teams, including Minnesota, who is highly underrated this season.
It will be an interesting second half, but if I know one thing, I know that the A's goal is not a .500 season. First goal: Stop losing. Check. Second goal: Get to .500. Check. Third goal: Move Texas to 3rd place. Final goal: Move the Angels into the Wild Card race.
We'll see how that plays out for them.
Thanks for your attention!
Sincerely,
Christy Hofmann
by baseballgirl on Jul 12, 2005 8:18 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That was superb!!!
Suchon and Carl Steward have much better articles in today's paper.
I'd link them if I could.
by saint on Jul 12, 2005 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Links
http://www.insidebayarea.com/sports/ci_2853456
http://www.insidebayarea.com/carlsteward/ci_2853505
My favorite part of Suchon's article was this:
Part I (no hitting, good pitching): 13-12 record, 3.56 ERA, outscored 193-92, hit .241 with 16 home runs and scored 3.6 runs a game.
Part II (no hitting, no pitching): 4-20 record, 5.89 ERA, outscored 155-94, hit .241 with 11 home runs and scored 3.9 runs a game -- and committed 26 errors.
Part III (good hitting, good pitching): 27-11 record, 3.03 ERA, outscored opponents 214-128, hit .293 with 41 home runs and scored 5.6 runs a game.
How the hell are those the same teams? In Part II they hit .46 HRs a game, in Part III they hit 1.10 HRs a game. I know some guys got healthy, but seriously...what a roller coaster ride.
by Dog Days on Jul 12, 2005 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, those are sure a refreshing change!
by baseballgirl on Jul 12, 2005 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmmph
I guess this is why you were such an impolite visitor to MY All-Star-related diary. I post the diary and then two minutes later, I have 1 comment, and check in to see what it is: "Oh, great ... a post about the stupid all-star game."
Hurt feelings aside (nothing therapy won't solve), I do disagree with you. What do you have against the All-Star game? It's fun! It's especially fun for kids, who tend to be more impressed by seeing all the stars on the field together--at least I was more impressed by it when I was a kid. But it's still kind of fun now (although I did turn it off in the seventh; I wonder if it's over now).
- Seeing all the stars together in the game is fun. And
- Naming players to the all-star game is a nice way of recognizing guys who have played the best.
On my knees, I implore you: is that so wrong!?
by rubin sierra on Jul 12, 2005 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh great...
by Carney4ever on Jul 12, 2005 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ohhhhhhhh....I'm so sorry!
I must admit, I tuned in just as Rogers was getting booed, and they were saying very nice things about the Oakland team, so that was a nice treat.
I'm SO sorry I was so inconsiderate about something that is fun for you! My bad. :) I promise to be positive from now on! (please note the Macha and Rincon exceptions)
Please forgive me!!!
by baseballgirl on Jul 12, 2005 11:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forgive you--But I wanted to argue with you!
by rubin sierra on Jul 13, 2005 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dear Saint:
When the A's were down in the dumps in May and there was all this ignorant critique that "Chavez was no good," "Zito will never return to his early pitching abilities," "the BB trades of Mulder and Hudson were a disaster," "Haren and Blanton don't have MLB stuff," that "acquiring Kendall was a disaster," etc., I supported Chavez and Zito, saying they would come around, I reminded posters that new players like Haren, Blanton, and Swisher had learning curves to make the jump to the Bigs and they would show their skills as they acquired experience, that Kendall was a lifetime .300 hitter and-like Kotsay last year-needed to adjust to AL pitching, and that BB's trades would have to be examined over the long haul.
Saint, I remember that in May, while I was defending the new A's, Chavvy, Zito, and BB's trades, you were one of those belly-aching. So who really is the true Oakland Athletic fan here?
But you don't have to be a fan of the city to be a fan of the team and clearly, I am not a supporter of that financially ailing-burg. Or, check that: those who really care for Oakland don't want to see the city expend its deficit revenues on anything for a new stadium. Shit, Oakland just closed its sole city jail due to lack of funds and, as everyone with any neurons functioning knows, the city has a high crime rate. If you wish to see the city spend a penny it doesn't really have for a stadium for a team owned by millionaires, you are just plain selfish and don't give a sou for Oakland.
A true Athletic fan who wants to see the A's stay in the Bay Area realizes that because Oakland will never provide a new stadium, the only way
to keep the A's in the region is for the team to move to either San Jose, Fremont or Sacto. Moreover, a move out of Oakland to one of the above venues is the sole way for the team to increase the player payroll and not always lose its stars when they approach free-agency.
Finally, you don't have to be a journalist (which I am) to know that the Oakland Tribune is a piss-poor publication. When Bob Maynard was publisher, he tried to put out a paper which reflected news of interest to people in the poorer areas (a majority of the town's citizenry) and they didn't buy the paper. Now the publication is largely directed to the yuppie hills and by anyone's yardstick is outright appalling.
BTW, in Monday's edition of USA Today, a feature on Miguel Tejada has him saying that while, Baltimore has great fans who come out to the stadium to support the team, Oakland also has good fans who DON'T come out to support the team. Although I am hardly partial to Miguel, I guess that sums up my perspective conclusively...
by reztips on Jul 12, 2005 11:34 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Even Beane and Macha's bellies ached in May.
I pointed out that Blanton's mechanics were off, which they were.
I pointed out that Chavy was winging like a girl, which he was.
I pointed out that Dotels arm had ot have been hurt, which it was.
I wanted Johnson called up over Watson.
I blasted Macha daily and Young semi-daily.
by saint on Jul 12, 2005 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Addendum For McFood
Let me ask you, McFood: Did you support the A's in May, or like Saint, did you level unmitigated criticism toward the young team and BB's moves? I don't remember your posts, so I won't tar you with lambasting the team when it was down. But those who tendered relentless attacks on the young, injury-riddled team and BB in the early season are questionable as to whether they are true fans. These are the real whiners, not moi...
by reztips on Jul 12, 2005 11:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Case in point
I have always supported the Oakland A's. I was born and raised in Oakland and started attending games in 1968. I may be jokingly critical of the players or management, but to tell you the truth, I don't put a whole lot of thought into it because in the end, it's a game, and entertainment, and no matter how much we debate anything about the team there's not a damn thing we can do about it(aside from not going to games, and as I said I go to games every year). But when you repeatedly make ridiculous assertations like "There's nothing good in all of Oakland", well, now you're making it personal, because I was born and raised in Oakland, much of my family and friends still live in Oakland, and they are better people than you could ever hope to be. So when you come to an Oakland A's fansite and spew that BS you are either an idiot(which I don't think you are), a liar, or a troll.
So which is it?
by McFood on Jul 12, 2005 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My attacks stemmed on Macha's failures:
Let's see what else?
I've defended Beane's moves from the day he made them, so no you airballed there.
I did rip Chavy for not showing any emotion of speaking out as a team leader. Which as you will recall he did on a bustrip to ATL. The results of which speak for themselves.
by saint on Jul 12, 2005 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
See?
by ArakSOT on Jul 12, 2005 12:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Response
McFood, many OAFC members read this site and their queen regularly bullies her way into the media as the standard-bearer of THE OAKLAND A'S TRUE FAN PERSPECTIVES. They are thus a public organization, routinely shoving their noses into the media and, are thus, worthy of criticism. Moreover, I take seriously those who boast that they have burned books and even if they are posting on a baseball site, I will call attention to actions that smack of the worst of the Third Reich or Stalinism. If you want to know why the Queen bans those who disagree with her, it shouldn't take Einsteinian thinking to divine the mindset at work.
McFood, if you read my rejoinders to you and saint, they delineate clearly that I am not the whiner here. As I noted, I was one of the few who supported the team when it was going poorly.
And yes, I don't see Oakland as a MLB venue and even the venerated Miguel Tejada--as I noted--was discreetly critical of the lack of support by the citizenry for the team. The Trib is indeed a lousy paper by any journalistic yardstick and its sports columnists certified idiots. The city is broke, crime-ridden, and run by the most inept politicians this side of Washington, DC. Unemployment was high there even during the dot-com boom times and the schools remain grossly underfunded. As for the downtown, with the exception of Jack London Sq. and Chinatown, it is a ghost town in the evenings--one of the few cities where restaurants open for lunch close when darkness falls.
As for attendance, the A's are middle of the pack over the past five years despite some of the lowest prices in MLB and being a contender for the post-season each of those five years. The stadium, like the city, is decaying and even your pals at OAFC no longer think it's viable.
In sum, I want the A's to stay in the Bay Area. And I believe that since they will NOT get a new stadium in Oakland, the only thing that will keep the team in the region is either a move south or north to Sacto. If you would rather the A's move out of the Bay Area if they can't stay in Oakland, then--as with the OAFC'ers who also believe this--I have little more to discuss with you on this issue...
by reztips on Jul 12, 2005 12:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
HUH?
They were a bad team at that time. As an A's fan for 25 years I can say that I have grown accustomed to this sort of trend over the past 5 years.
I said you are not an "Oakland" fan...
Oakland has thier problems...From the mayor's office on down...But, I do not want the team to leave and as someone who resides in Oakland or has until recently moving to Alameda (I still work downtown) I resent your, there is nothing good in Oakland statement. I also know that is not true as the gentrification of Oakland is one of the reasons, I believe, there will be a new stadium here.
by saint on Jul 12, 2005 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've changed my mind about banning you
I don't wish to defend, or even discuss, OAFC, but the image you present of the poor, poor, media being "bullied" by some fan site owner, well, that's a hoot.
And you can declare yourself "not a whiner" as much as you like, but I'm methinks thou doth protest too much, and I don't believe my perception is that of the minority of readers.
I agree with you that Oakland has some major issues, name a city that size that does not. Cities always have issues.
So Oakland has middle of the pack attendance, that means they are in imminent danger of losing their team? Please, that same old song has been playing for 30 years.
After all this, what if everyone agrees with you, what would you have them do? Post more Oakland bashing on a fan site? That won't change anything. At least Devo had a real plan of action, not just the spewing of verbal poo like you.
Go ahead and have the last word, your BS speaks for itself.
by McFood on Jul 12, 2005 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Last Word?
I can't believe McFood, saint, or anyone who believes Oakland should ante up public revenues or land for the A's millionaire owners really gives two shits about Oakland. With that city's manifest problems, the last thing they need to do is provide a subsidy for the rich. But of course, you guys must have your own little source of entertainment close at hand and so what if it doesn't go for education, employment, housing, police protection, etc. You won't have to go far for your little ballgame.
Now San Jose and Sacto are in a far better economic situation and yes, to keep the team in the Bay Area, I won't mind driving a bit further to see the team I favor. I am based in Berkeley.
Unfortunately, any move South or North would make it more difficult for the OAFC queen (who lives in lilly-white Marin) and her drones to get to the game. And it give the OAFC'ers press hero, Ray Fatso, lots to bitch and moan about. So an A's move to another part of the Bay would even work out well for those who live to hate...
Final question to McFood, saint and others who feel so strongly about the A's not moving from Oakland to either San Jose, Fremont or Sacto: if the A's move from Oakland, would you prefer that they leave the region? Because anyone with neurons functioning knows that the A's future is either in the southbay, Sacto or out of the Bay Area. There simply ain't gonna be any new stadium in Oakland. Deal with it!
by reztips on Jul 12, 2005 1:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow, your neurons are really misfiring today:
Did you know that right across from the building I work in they are putting up 1,600 new condos with shopping underneath?
Did you know they are currently zoning more areas out for just this type of redevelopment?
Look at Detroit 5 years ago and the renaisance there now.
For someone who claims to be open minded and always keeping his head on the prize you are really missing the point here.
IF, they could not get this deal done in Oakland I would support Livermore, Fremont or Sac in it's attempt to keep them from leaving.
AND HOW SAID I EVER ADVOCATED USING THE COUNTY'S MONEY?!?!?!
Fisher could buy the stadium himself!?!?!
by saint on Jul 12, 2005 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
God I hate some sportswriters
Wonder if writing THESE points will make me a better writer?
- This Chavez thing won't last, they really need to trade for a good, young 3B.
- Remember Kurt Ainsworth? Dangle Zito and get him for cheap while you still can!
- Oakland really needed to draft Jared Weaver over these Windsor and Suzuki and Powell no-names last year.
by JLaff on Jul 12, 2005 1:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Detriot and Oakland Housing
Saint, I went to university in Ann Arbor and thus know Detriot all too well. Alas, there is nothing approaching a true renaissance in Detriot. Unemployment and crime continue to devastate the lower economic stratum, just devastating poor people.
Ditto the situation in Oakland. Those condos to which you refer aren't likely to help many of the economic lower income groups--far and away the majority of Oakland's residents.
Where I agree with you: Fisher and Wolfe bloody well should use their mind-boggling economic surplus to fund their own stadium. But as we have seen, MLB millionaires can usually snare foolish city pols into have the good citizenry pay for new stadiums.
'Course, this will not happen in Oakland and I'm pleased to see that you would rather have the team subsequently relocate elsewhere in the Bay Area than move out of the region--for that is definitively what will ultimately transpire...
by reztips on Jul 12, 2005 2:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
So, you backed this team when they were down:
What those condos do is further gentrify the region.
You need only look at teh urban revitalization that took place in the SOMA district in SF to see what happens when you turn skid row into condo row.
Those lower economic people are now surfacing in Richmond and the murder rate in Oakland is recinding.
Those facts along with the urban revitalization and real estate values are why Oakland is a great choice.
by saint on Jul 12, 2005 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There were many people
That's why I give your opinion all the weight it deserves.
by McFood on Jul 12, 2005 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oakland Not Comparable with SF
Well, anyone who believes Oakland is remotely comparable to SF is deluded. There was tremendous affluence in the new Gnat owners and a civic sensibility which applied it to SBC (or whatever it is now termed) Park. From the time McGowen & Co. bought the Gnats, it was apparent that they were going to finance a stadium. On the other hand, Wolfe is not an E. Bay resident and has never shown any financial commitment whatsoever to Oakland. He has, on the other hand, invested a goodly amount in San Jose.
If you believe Wolfe and Fischer (who lives in Sonoma County and has despoiled his huge homestead environmentally, according to the Sierra Club and other conservationists) are going to provide their own finances in Oakland when they can get urban support elsewhere, hee hee--I've got a bridge to see ya...
Hey saint, win, lose or draw, I've been quite consistent over the years in saying that Oakland is not a viable MLB venue and is not a place most visitors to the Bay Area are drawn--and for good reason. Did you ever hear a tourist to SF say, "Hey, I'm going to make a visit to beautiful, picturesque downtown Oakland?" ;-)>
by reztips on Jul 12, 2005 6:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Heard Del Grande on KNBR tonight
by floyd on Jul 12, 2005 10:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Passionate
by streetfan on Jul 13, 2005 12:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He also made a snoring noise
by floyd on Jul 13, 2005 8:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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