More love for Tejada, from Gammons (with poll)

by MJB on May 2, 2005 9:58 AM PDT

Peter Gammons' latest piece on espn.com once again sings the praises of Miguel Tejada and identifies Big Mig as the force behind the Orioles' great start to 2005:

But the players point to one man as the main reason for the club's turnaround. "There's no doubt in my mind that Miggy [Tejada] is the best player in the game," Roberts says. "Start with his position. He's by far the best at a [the] middle-infield skill position. Then, if you watched us every day, you'd see [Tejada's] RBI are not a fluke. He has an uncanny ability to knock in runs. Then, most of all, there's his energy. He is always up, pushing everyone and making the entire team better."

"I've never been around anyone like him," B.J. Surhoff says of Tejada.

"I played with Pete Rose and coached Kirby Puckett," Orioles hitting coach Terry Crowley says, "and Miggy is just like them. He is the best player in the game, hands-down. Like Rose and Puckett, he puts it out there every day, and they are those rare players off whom teammates feed. You can crunch every number you want, you can't put a premium on the energy one player can bring to an entire team. This franchise changed the day he arrived."

More, and the poll, after the jump.

Letting Tejada leave: Was it the biggest blunder?

No, letting Huddy go was the biggest blunder

19 votes

Yes, A's should have built around Miggy

108 votes

Who knows, there's so much luck involved

58 votes

No, Chavez was the right guy to keep long term

40 votes

225 votes | Poll has closed

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Comments

question

I'm not a real big stat guy, so can anyone tell me if we could have afforded tejada? I'm not talking about right now, I mean back when he signed with Balto. We still had Huddy, Mulder, Chavez, and Dye.

Let's Go A's!

by AllThingsOakland on May 2, 2005 10:24 AM PDT reply actions

The choice was Chavy or Miggi.

Now, with the departures of Hudson and Mulder Miggi and Chavy would have been affordabe this year. There would be no Jason Kendall though. Which would be just fine with me, Kendall for Miggi is a no-brainer and Crosby would be the 2nd baseman.

by saint @ Athletics Nation on May 2, 2005 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions

at the time Miggy said

he would do a hometown discount. He ended signing with Baltimore for 6 years and $72 million. Chavvy signed with the A's for 6 years and $66 million. So it would basically have meant signing Miggy instead of Chavvy.

by OaklandSi on May 2, 2005 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions

Hindsight's 20/20.

I think that Boston should have kept Bagwell, too. And the Reds shouldn't have traded for Griffey... It's too easy to say "we should've" after the deal goes down.

The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face.

by JJ on May 2, 2005 10:44 AM PDT reply actions

Miggy

I don't think it's hindsight, alot of us knew that when Tejada's contract came up, it would be either him or Chavez to sign long term. I was for keeping Tejada, based on the fact that he had been MVP, an all-star and his energy and endurance. So Tejada signs with Balt. for 6/$72m., and we sign Chavez for 6/$66m. For $6m more, we could have Tejada. Let's see, so far this year, Miggy 9 hr, 32 rbi, .374 avg., early MVP candidate. Chavez, 2 hr, 9 rbi, .208 avg. And don't give me this Chavez is a slow starter crap. The season begins in April, not May or June. Also, don't give me we had Bobby Crosby waiting in the wings crap. He could have been moved to third or second. Let's face it, Billy usually makes excellent moves, but he blew this one.

by Reggie on May 2, 2005 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions

You're right - the season does start in April

but it includes May, June, July, August, and even this month called September. Strangely enough, they all count more or less equally in the standings too.

This funny thing happens when you take the sum of all of those months the past couple of years and compare Chavvy's full season to Miggy's - Chavvy's season, by almost every measure .... is better, despite his chronic April problems. Of the 7 seasons coming into this years that Chavvy has been in the majors, he has had a higher OPS than Miggy in all but one of them. That being the year Miggy won the MVP, edging Chavvy .862 to .861. Given that, as one might expect, Chavvy easily beats Miggy career-wise .849 to .816.

I just needed something new here, since the season had started ...

by devo on May 2, 2005 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions

do you have this copied in a file somewhere

so you can paste it in every "we should have kept miggy" diary?

by xbhaskarx on May 2, 2005 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions

I like to keep my

witty, smart-ass comments fresh, so I prefer to rewrite it each time.

I just needed something new here, since the season had started ...

by devo on May 2, 2005 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions

there's ALREADY a new one for you...

by xbhaskarx on May 2, 2005 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions

After all

The best smartass comments are the ones sprung fresh from the mind. ;-)

by Inquisitor on May 2, 2005 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions

For a lot of folks

It's a very short distance between one's ass and their mind.

by grover on May 2, 2005 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions

OPS comparison unfair.

I really don't have an opinion between the two either way, but I'm not a fan of ops comparisons between players of different positions. I'd rather use something like VORP, or Win Shares, as they value durability and position, and Win Shares tries to look at defense.. SO here we go.

Tejada

VORP
2002 - 66.4
2003 - 58.1
2004 - 73.0

Win Shares
2002 - 32 (25.01 Bat, 6.94 field)
2003 - 25 (18.45 bat, 6.89 field)
2004 - 30 (22.5 bat, 7.1 field)

Chavez
VORP
2002 - 51.4
2003 - 61.6
2004 - 45.5

Win Shares
2002 - 25 (20.65 bat, 4.54 field)
2003 - 25 (18.26 bat, 6.43 field)
2004 - 19 (15 bat, 3.9 field)

I would have also showen WARP had I been able to find the numbers (which I wasn't)

If you don't like VORP or Win Shares (and truthfully, I don't know how much I trust Win Shares for defense) obviously it's not going to convince anyone either way, but I think they give a better look at player performance than straight OPS does.

Note: if any of my WS numbers are wrong, please tell me.

by Wezlar on May 2, 2005 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions

2004 Vorp

Keep in mind that Chavez missed 6 weeks because of a broken wrist, so his VORP would've been higher.

"Put a Milo on him."
-Billy Beane

by kaweahkaweah on May 2, 2005 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions

It's not unfair to compare OPS

since Miggie would be directly replacing Chavvy, with Crosby as the other player on the left side no matter who his mate is. It's irrelevent if our superstar plays SS or 3b, since the guy replacing the other is going to be the same regardless.

I just needed something new here, since the season had started ...

by devo on May 2, 2005 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions

I'm missing Tejada more than ever

But can we stop this? (This diary was actually informative so i'm talking about the posts).

Hindsight is 20/20 of course, we all know this. And Tejada was a wonderful player. And a wonderful guy. And in a ideal player basically. What will we say when Chavez has this month and Tejada goes 0-June? The tides will turn eventually.

Don't take this as sticking up for Chavvy or hating on Tejada. I love the guy, and i miss him just as mmuch as the rest of us. But i'm tired of seeing the chavez bashing and stuff. Last year was Tejadas first year without us. Why don't we wait the lenght of the deal before using hindisght?

Conventional wisdom says 15 is too young to be an executive of a major sports franchise. Galileo and Einstein weren't conventional. Neither am i.

by ohad on May 2, 2005 11:22 AM PDT reply actions

Because...

for six million more the A's could have had 'the best player in baseball...who is always up, pushing everyone and making the entire team better'. Those phrases will never, ever be used to describe #3.

by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions

Sure they would

Trade him to an AL East team that has Superman leading off, and who thumps the BoSox and Yankees in April, and they'll call him a god.

"And Julio Franco is batting right-handed!" -- Wayne Hagin, A's radio play-by-play, mid-80s

by Nick on May 2, 2005 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions

I would like to see if Tejada...

...ever could handle the true pressure situations, i.e. playoffs.

He was a huge liability for us in our appearances.

That being said, he is on my fantasy team this year, and I couldn't be happier.

"The other sports are just sports. Baseball is a love." ~Bryant Gumbel

by baseballgirl on May 2, 2005 11:48 AM PDT reply actions

the guy

who chose #3 over #4 has often been quoted as saying the 'playoffs are a crapshoot'. when tejada was in an oakland uniform, at least the a's were IN the playoffs.

by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions

"when tejada was in ...

an oakland uniform, at least the a's were IN the playoffs."

The same could be said for Terrence Long. From 1993 on, ever single year he's worn the Green and Gold we've made the playoffs. Ever single year he hasn't, we haven't ... hmm, makes you think, doesn't it?

I just needed something new here, since the season had started ...

by devo on May 2, 2005 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions

T. Long

wasn't exactly in the running for 6 years/$66 or $72 million. Think? Do you mean like reading the box scores every morning and thinking about who the better choice was?

by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions

Here's some Latin for you

Post hoc ergo procter hoc

It means "after, therefore becase"

You implied that because Miggie left, we didn't make the playoffs. The problem with your logic is that other guys left too - including T Long and Ramon Hernandez, who were both around for the entire 4 year run. Not only that, but other things changed too - the Big 3 became the Big 1 (when healthy) and the enigmatic 2 and the bullpen forgot that only hitters are supposed to take part in batting practice.

I just needed something new here, since the season had started ...

by devo on May 2, 2005 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions

I am convinced that

your logic and number crunching can make Neifi Perez better than Babe Ruth.

by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions

hey

Perez is hitting with an OPS of over a thousand since nomars injury (i think) :)

Conventional wisdom says 15 is too young to be an executive of a major sports franchise. Galileo and Einstein weren't conventional. Neither am i.

by ohad on May 2, 2005 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions

While I appreciate the compliment

are you arguing that Ramon Hernandez, Ted Lilly, and Terrence Long leaving didn't affect the team(okay, maybe not Loopy)?

Are you arguing that Zito sucking 2 out of every 3 starts, Mulder forgetting how to pitch for 3 months, and Huddy being injured didn't affect the team?

Are you arguing that the bullpen being a tad less than stellar didn't affect the team?

Are you arguing that Miggy would have somehow shored up the rotation and the bullpen if we had kept him? Perhaps he could have also invented an age reversing serum and given it to Jermaine Dye and taught Mongo how to field so he could give Hatty a day off? Maybe he could have also negotiated a deal to keep Huddy and Mulder on contracts with perennial club options, a la Tim Wakefield?

Or maybe ... just maybe, whether we made the playoffs or not last year and what happens this year and beyond has a little something to do with things other than just the Miggie v Chavvy debate ....

I just needed something new here, since the season had started ...

by devo on May 2, 2005 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions

Of course

I'm not saying that one guy made the difference in getting to the post season. I know that it was a collective collapse. I was simply (sarcastically) responding to the poster who brought up Tejada's post-season meltdowns as a reason for not keeping him.

We know where we each stand on Tejada vs. Chavez; the whole situation just gets under the skin of many A's fans, especially when Tejada is going off, getting more attention on the East Coast and being called the best player in the game. We have nothing else to compare this to since the A's finally chose to sign one of their own homegrown stars over another and it has backfired so far.

by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions

Fair enough

I suppose I can move on with my life ; )

I just needed something new here, since the season had started ...

by devo on May 2, 2005 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions

oh please.

If you guys don't want to hear the Tejada-Chavez comparisons, I can understand that.
But don't even HINT that Tejada isn't the better player, by far!
No comparison.

VacaAsFan

by Vacafan on May 2, 2005 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions

See Devo's excellent post above

comparing OPS between the two, for a rebuttal. Gold Gloves are not included in OPS calculations, btw.

"Put a Milo on him."
-Billy Beane

by kaweahkaweah on May 2, 2005 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions

Yet another well reasoned

excellently supported post.

Kudos, Vacafan!

I just needed something new here, since the season had started ...

by devo on May 2, 2005 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions

you crack me up.

Conventional wisdom says 15 is too young to be an executive of a major sports franchise. Galileo and Einstein weren't conventional. Neither am i.

by ohad on May 2, 2005 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions

i'm sure binders of supporting documentation

are already in the mail, headed to the homes of each AN member...

by xbhaskarx on May 2, 2005 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions

option #1 is really obvious

i like chavez and all, but unless he goes 2004 adrian beltre on me, his contract will always be a mistake.

by suggy on May 2, 2005 12:02 PM PDT reply actions

Age was a factor

Chavvy is younger, that had to do with the signing too. Plus miggy is latin, never rally know how old they r. He has more of an upside. Miguel is at his peak and chavvy is still rising. I do not know if the move was bad or not. But i gurantee when Chavvy went out with a broken hand no one was saying good, we do not need him. At some point all of u have loved Chavvy. Now that he has his yearly bad april u trash em. For people who r a's "fans" people sure do seem to hate a bunch of our players. When Chavvy is hitting I do not want any of u haters to say a word. Keep telling me why u hate em.

A hot dog at the ball park is better than steak at the Ritz. --Humphrey Bogart

by West Bay A s Fan on May 2, 2005 12:52 PM PDT reply actions

Another entry

sterotyping Latins. Nice. Chavez has a Latin surname but since he's from San Diego his birth certificate is more legitimate?

He has more of an 'upside'? Ladies and gentleman, Mel Kiper Jr. has joined AN!

When might we get to witness this 'upside' and don't you generally consider 'upside' when choosing who to sign through their arbitration years rather than save it for 8 figure per year deals?

by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions

His less than PC comment is still true

Birth Certificates from the DR are less reliable than those from the United States. In addition to that, we also have means of verification of the age of American born players, as it can be safely assumed that they went to elementary school, middle school, and high school at roughly the appropriate ages for their grades. It think it's fairly safe to assume that Chavvy was not 10 when he entered the first grade.

I just needed something new here, since the season had started ...

by devo on May 2, 2005 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions

Do a little

web search and see how long it takes you to get a fake US birth certificate.

If their stated media guide age has them only 18 months apart then do you think that by the time they are in the last year of their contracts that Tejada will be taking Celebrex and Chavez will doing triathlons in his spare time? The age difference is negligible.

by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions

Or you could just go down to San Diego

and get a copy of the real one - whichever is more convenient. Convenience is key here, since we are conveniently ignoring the fact that there are plenty of records documenting Chavvy living the life of a man currently his age in the years a man currently his age would typically live them.

No, I hope Chavvy isn't doing triathalons in his spare time by the end of his contract - I hope, since he'd be aging, that he'd be resting in the offseason to keep himself as healthy as possible. Perhaps Miggy will be doing triathalons, he might defy the odds. Funny thing about defying the odds though, most people don't.

In the great majority of cases, if you are choosing between signing two players of comperable talent and of comperable stature to comperable long term contracts, you will have a much greater return on your investment if you sign the younger player. Those are the odds. Billy Beane likes to do business with the odds on his side - so do I. But then again, I don't like to chase gut shot straight draws to the river when there's a flush on the board.

I just needed something new here, since the season had started ...

by devo on May 2, 2005 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions

Or Los Angeles

where he was actually born. Nice knowledge Superfan.

Tejada isn't typical - he was shining shoes when Chavez was practicing his autograph. Talk about defying the odds.

Take intangibles into consideration and sign the better player period.

For the record, how old do you think Tejada is?

by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions

Zing!

You go me. I didn't know the Eric Chavez was born in LA.

For the record, I don't have any reason to doubt that Miggie is the age he says he is. I'd say that I'm about 90% certain that his age is accurate. At the same time, I'm 99.something% sure that Chavvy's age is accurate, so that 9.something% difference is another factor that we should work into the equation.

Pros for Chavvy
Younger
More reliable age (only slightly)
Better stats every single year
Better defensively

Pros for Miggie
"Intangibles"
Fan favorite (the guy is my favorite player)
RBIs (may be considered subset of intangibles)
Stamina

The factors for Chavvy can be added up fairly accurately - which is probably a reason why the more statistically inclined tend to lean towards him.

I just needed something new here, since the season had started ...

by devo on May 2, 2005 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions

He is your favorite player!

and you still are on the Chavez side of the fence...unreal. I never doubted Chavez' age...I don't think there's a precedent for US born baseball players lying about their age; more for criminals. It was in response to the question of the reliability factor of Latin birth certificates.

Speaking of favorites, I would say that 50% of my reasoning for getting the MLB Extra Innings package this year was to watch Tejada, Hudson and Mulder on a semi-regular basis, 25% to watch upcoming A's opponents and 25% to just increase the odds of a game always being on.

by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions

My 4 favorite players of all time have been

Miggie, Huddy, Matty Stairs, and Big Mac. The only one that I question the A's not keeping was Stairs. Actually, that's not true, I understand why we moved him - he wasn't a bargain at $3.2m, I just don't understand why we didn't bring him back in 2002 when the going rate for him dropped to $.5m. The 2002-2004 Athletics could have really used him as a 4th OF.

But, back to my point, those guys are still all favorites of mine - that isn't diminished because they aren't wearing the Green and Gold. Although I am happy (strangely enough) when the A's lose occasionally - more often than not, I want them to win, and, objectively and given the realities of our situation, that goal was best served by letting those guys move on.

I just needed something new here, since the season had started ...

by devo on May 2, 2005 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions

Gut shot straight draws...

why not?! That's excitement for you!

Just kidding...I don't really do that...much.

My runner-to-runner straight draw with a 2-3 non-suited in the hole was pretty thrilling, though. Nothing like a move like that to get the table riled up, too.

by LD on May 2, 2005 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions

birth certificates..

..from america are going to be more credible than those of any other nation, not just the DR. "appropriate ages for their grades," I have family from the PI that graduated from high school before i could legally drive. I don't know what point you were trying to make with that, so I don't know what point I am making right now. I'd take that mvp over 4gg at 3b, at the time #3 didn't have 4gg anyway. but if we kept tejada and didn't make it to the playoffs last year, and Chavy won another gg w/o us, then we may be arguing that we should have kept Chavez and have had crosby take over at ss.

anyway, I like both players.

Q.E.D.

Let's Go A's!

by AllThingsOakland on May 2, 2005 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions

My point about school

is that we have public records that show that Chavez attended first grade in 198_, second grade in 198_, and so forth. From these records we could accurately discern whether or not the age on his birth certificate is credible.

I just needed something new here, since the season had started ...

by devo on May 2, 2005 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions

Ah, I see..

..but I thought that everyone was arguing about how old Miggy is. I was wondering how your thought process helped figure out his age, but that makes sense now.

Let's Go A's!

by AllThingsOakland on May 2, 2005 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions

That comment was light humor

get over it.

Good points in referring to fans. True fans do not have a "what have you done for me lately attitude." I think too many people on this site have read Moneyball and think they can do it better...now that someone else has pointed out the method.

"When you consider the other choices, manure is actually pretty refreshing." - George Costanza

by Awesomus on May 2, 2005 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions

Ask Oklahoma's

baseball coach about mixing light humor and racial sterotypes. I don't think he'll be getting over it for awhile.

by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions

come on now

the A's signed Chavvy instead of Miggy, not because they weren't sure how old Miggy is, but because they had what they considered a "can't miss' shortstop prospect ready to step in, and because they thought that over the six years of the contract that Chavez was going to outperform Miggy. that of course is a judgment call.

by OaklandSi on May 2, 2005 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions

Leadership -

"The test of a leader lies in the reaction and response of his followers. He should not have to impose authority. Bossiness in itself never made a leader. He must make his influence felt by example and the instilling of confidence in his followers. The greatness of a leader is measured by the achievements of the led. This is the
ultimate test of his effectiveness."

-GEN Omar Bradley

"When you consider the other choices, manure is actually pretty refreshing." - George Costanza

by Awesomus on May 2, 2005 12:58 PM PDT reply actions

One other overlooked tidbit...

Tejada had Crosby to replace him, easing the pain of losing a superstar shortstop. No one could in the A's farm system could make such an immediate impact at 3b.

"Put a Milo on him."
-Billy Beane

by kaweahkaweah on May 2, 2005 1:05 PM PDT reply actions

There was this one guys ... what was his name?

Oh yeah, Bobby Crosby - he'd have had last year to learn 3b, it'd've worked fine.

I just needed something new here, since the season had started ...

by devo on May 2, 2005 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions

If

Cal Ripken and A-Rod could make the move from SS to 3rd I'm sure Crosby could have handled it. People forget that Chavez was originally a SS too.

by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions

Well, if it worked okay for some guy named A-Rod

I'd guess Crosby could figure it out too.

"Put a Milo on him."
-Billy Beane

by kaweahkaweah on May 2, 2005 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions

Ummm ... Hinske ?

Who was traded because he was stuck behind Chavy at 3rd.

by green star oakland on May 2, 2005 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions

Have you seen that dude

lately..is it me or does he look tremendously out of shape? Does he even play third anymore?

by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions

hinske=1st base in tor

"Hey Ho Let's Go!"- The 2005 A's, kickin' some ass.

by bigelephant on May 2, 2005 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions

I'm glad Chavvy is on 3rd

for the A's instead of Hinske

by OaklandSi on May 2, 2005 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions

does anyone here

actually believe that the A's let "the best player in the game" slip away?

If you only listen to Gammons, you may start thinking that Hanley Ramirez is the best prospect/human being ever. Or that David Ortiz is actually the best player in the game.

I'm not blaming Gammons. That column was a nice tribute to Miggy Magic...and I loved that magic. But I'm not the only one questioning the "best player" tag. I guarantee there are many players on other teams that think the best player is in their clubhouse.

by Sharon on May 2, 2005 1:25 PM PDT reply actions

No, I don't believe that

You could make an argument that Tejada has been the best player so far this season, but that is as much as you could reasobnably say at this point.

"Put a Milo on him."
-Billy Beane

by kaweahkaweah on May 2, 2005 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions

I think a lot of this discussion

Is based on a "Grass is always greener on the other side" sentiment, because Chavez is currently slumping (although I think he might be turning things around).

"Put a Milo on him."
-Billy Beane

by kaweahkaweah on May 2, 2005 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions

I agree to a certain extent.

But there are people who genuinely believe that Miggi is better than Chavy. That was the opinion before, and the current slump of our third baseman has only fueled it.

by Sharon on May 2, 2005 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions

true, plus if crosby was kickin' ass in '05

...it would lessen the blow of miggy killin' it this year.

"Hey Ho Let's Go!"- The 2005 A's, kickin' some ass.

by bigelephant on May 2, 2005 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions

Best player

Is Tejada the best player in baseball today? No.

Would Tejada be the best player on the A's if he were a member of the A's today? Yes.

MJB

by MJB on May 2, 2005 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions

Who is better today?

Let me guess:

Pujols
Beltran
Ichiro
Jeter
Vlad

Tejada certainly belongs in the discussion.

by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions

Does health factor into the equation?

And how much value do we assign to defense?

Better:
Pujols
Vlad
A-Rod
Rolen
Berkman (at least in a month, once he's fully healthy)

Borderline
Ramirez (depending on defense)
Beltre
Mora
Sheffield
Ichiro
Edmonds
Texeira
Chavez
Beltran (though I think he's fairly overrated)
Helton
Cabrera

and, of course, contingent on the answer to the first question, Bonds should be worked into that first group somewhere.

Of course, this list is based on the assumption that he doesn't keep up his current pace, which would leave him at 61 homeruns, 216 RBIs, and an OPS of 1.154, which would equal the number of homeruns he hit in his last two years combined, have him break the all time RBI record in early September, and top his career high OPS by 260 points. Suffice it to say, I think it's pretty likely he slows down a bit.

I just needed something new here, since the season had started ...

by devo on May 2, 2005 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions

Chavez y Chavez

...Im not here to bash Chavvy,I've got to stick by him, but how cool would it be to see him throwing bats and gloves onto the dugout like Miggy did out of frustration. I'd like to see the guy vent every now and then like he gives a damn!

...White Shoes for Life

by heatchaser on May 2, 2005 1:29 PM PDT reply actions

Emotional Outbursts

Do not demonstrate that a person is more committed to the team than a person who shows less emotion. Just because we don't see Chavez's frustration on his face or in his actions doesn't mean he's not feeling it. Maybe he was brought up to keep his emotions private. Geez, if I yelled obscenities and threw things whenever I felt frustrated with my work, I'd have been fired long ago!

Anyway comparing Chavez and Miggy in such a way is like comparing night and day. I'm sure Miggy did a lot of cursing, screaming, and crying during his April 2003 slump and it didn't help pull him out of it. But that was Miggy's way and we all loved him for it.

Until I hear Chavez say, "I know I'm not playing well, but I don't care because I get paid anyway.", I'll rightly assume that he's at least as unhappy as we are about the slump he is in (or in the process of snapping out of).

by almostreggie on May 2, 2005 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions

I'd rather see him

blast a ball out of the park or in the gaps with RISP, than see him throw baseball equipment around.

by OaklandSi on May 2, 2005 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions

I wanted both...

and I've yet to come to terms with the fact that I can't have everything I want.

by LD on May 2, 2005 2:48 PM PDT reply actions

The Book, Chapter 11, Page 248 Hardback

"I'm still having trouble getting my mind around the notion of making such forecats about human beings, and I say as much. My problem can be simply put: every player is different. Every player must be viewed as a special case. The sample size is always one. His answer is equally simple: baseball players follow similar patterns, and these patterns are etched in the record books. Of course, every so often some player may fail to embrace his statistical destiny, but on a team of twenty-five players the statistical aberrations will tend to cancel each other out. And most of them will conform fairly exactly to his expectations. About Eric Chavez's career, for instance, he has not the slightest doubt. "The only thing that will stop Chavvy is if he gets bored," he says. "People don't understand that. He continues to frustrate people who take him out of context. He is twenty-four years old. What he's done at twenty-four no one has done. Health permitted, his whole career is a lock."

Seems like there's a substantial number of ANers not showing a lot of trust in Billy.

athleticsnation.com, 164

by ArakSOT on May 2, 2005 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions

Well...

it is certainly getting boring watching him look at strike three or pop out to the left side.

by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions

I believe in Chavvy

But I do think the "bored" comment touches on something inescapable about the man. What he's done is remarkable, but he has the potential to waste his talent.

That said, I have maintained consistently that I support his contract and if it came down to a choice between him and Miggy (which I guess it did), I think the choice was obvious because of his obvious talent and potential.

However, that didn't stop me from being upset that we lost Miggy and wishing we could have had both. I do, however, think people are forgetting about the potential of Miggy's replacement....Crosby was stellar defensively last year and hit a ton. I miss him in the lineup a lot this year.

by LD on May 2, 2005 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions

I agree totally

We're really missing Crosby.

And I adore Miggy and miss him dearly. But I love cheering him on in the AL East, watching him do his thang against the Two Evil Empires!

"Look what we did!"

by ArakSOT on May 2, 2005 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions

miggy always !

Billy really screwed up by not making him an offer. Not only did he lose the A's spark plug in favor of a guy with the personality of a surfer, but for the rest of his career he'll never know how much money he could have offered and won the bidding.
Anyhow, I have Miggy on my fantasy team -- passed on Chavez -- so I can't be totally unhappy. Plus if the Orioles beat out those other East teams, it'll be great for baseball.

by vk on May 2, 2005 2:58 PM PDT reply actions

True...

...I'd rather see him blast the long one too. Just venting frustrations, Its always nice to see someone, like Kotsay last week, get PO'd and then come out swinging like a mad man, the guy is on fire.

...White Shoes for Life

by heatchaser on May 2, 2005 3:24 PM PDT reply actions

Tejada makes others around him better?

Look, as a fan, I love Tejada's energy, agressiveness, infectious smile, hysterics...I miss him terribly. He's a fabulous player off to a great start, arguably the best shortstop in the majors right now. I wish we had 3 and 4 batting 3 and 4 for Oakland.

That said...I don't know that he makes everyone around him better. In fact, I can't find any empirical evidence to that effect. But overt displays of emotions are in vogue these days, and the same reason that people think Macha is incapable will lead people to think that Chavvy doesn't care. But some people just don't play angry.

Remember that if we had signed Tejada, the Breakup of the Big Three (BOBT) would have occurred last year, not this year. And I don't think we could have gotten as much in return for Huddy and Mulder at that time because the market for pitchers hadn't blown up. When the asking price for pitchers this winter skyrocketed, Beane was able to extract a king's ransom by working the Cardinals against the Braves.

Chavez will come around. Kendall will come around. All it takes is a little faith, and some pixie dust...

Fearing Mecir since 2000.

by salb918 on May 2, 2005 3:27 PM PDT reply actions

I voted...

it was a mistake to let him go, but I've believed, since day 1 without Miggy, that we should have resigned Miggy instead of Chavvy. This isn't Chavvy hating, just what I felt would have been better for the team. It also pains me that I've been right. I've desperately wanted to be wrong. Hopefully I still will be, but Miggy brings the intangibles with him that Chavez just doesnt have...

by ZeroIndulgence on May 2, 2005 3:51 PM PDT reply actions

One great April...

doesn't put anybody in the Hall of Fame. If it did, Jermaine Dye would be there for his April 2004 performance. Anyone remember that?

I'm glad Tejada had a great April. But in each of the last five years he's had an OPS between .800 and .900 and I think it's a pretty safe that he'll end up in that range again for 2005. The exact same thing is true of Eric Chavez. Their career offensive numbers looked pretty similar just before the A's made their decision about them, and they still do.

by matthias on May 2, 2005 3:52 PM PDT reply actions

MIGGY V. CHAVVY

Im sure its been pointed out countless times here at AN, but here's a brief average from 2000-2004

Chavez: 150hits .280AVG 30HR
Tejada: 183hits .287AVG 31HR

We've all been witness to the best of Miggy, I dont think we've seen all of Chavez just yet. The potential there is phenomenal.

...White Shoes for Life

by heatchaser on May 2, 2005 4:03 PM PDT reply actions

DUDE!

Miggy was an MVP! Of course we should have kept him.

by runtru1 on May 2, 2005 4:35 PM PDT reply actions

It's all about potential

Chavvy has the potential to hit 40-50 bombs and hit about .310. Even not living up to his potential these last few years, hitting about .275 w/ 30 bombs, he has still been stastically superior to Tejada in OPS and VORP. Miggy, on the other hand, is at about at his max potential and at his peak being several years older. Throw in the fact that Chavez is the superior defender and its no contest.

Anybody who thinks Tejada is better is simply a homer. That's all there is to it - you're no better than Joe Morgan or Jon Kruk.

by rickeytime on May 2, 2005 4:56 PM PDT reply actions

I don't believe

in potential. If you don't show it to me on the field, it's not real. Miggy is playing like a superstar and will until he retires.

Forty isn't old -- for a tree.

by atomopawn on May 2, 2005 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions

huh?

what have you seen on the field to show that Miggi will play like a superstar until he retires?

by Sharon on May 2, 2005 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions

Exactly.

"potential." I've been hearing about Chavez' potential for years now. Even Nico (whom I usually fight with) acknowledges that the guy isn't as good as the hype. Tejada has a legitimate shot at the Hall of Fame. Chavez? You gotta be kidding.

VacaAsFan

by Vacafan on May 2, 2005 9:56 PM PDT up reply actions

OPS

OPS would be good for comparison, if baseball was an individual sport. But it's not, it's a team sport. When you get your hits generally matters more than how many you get. If you're going to argue that Tejada's amazing tendency to drive runners in is entirely based on luck or him getting more opportunities or drive people in, then I can't convince you otherwise. I can't "prove" that Tejada is a better clutch hitter than Chavez with the stats available today.

I do know that Tejada leads the majors in RBI's over the past three years. He's third by 3 runs over the past 5 years. He's leading the majors right now. He will probably be leading the majors at the end of this year again.

I also can't measure how Tejada's presence affects his teammates. It just can't be done. But I think it's generally agreed that Tejada is more of a team leader and can inspire his teammates better than Chavez.

With very close OPS's, I would take leadership and RBI's over a year or three of youth, especially with Tejada's amazing durability.

We all forget that when Tejada left, we still had doubts as to if the team was ever going to sign everybody. It wasn't a straight up Miggy vs Chavy decision when they told Tejada they weren't going to offer him a contract. At that point, we had let Giambi, Isringhausen, and Damon all go. Nobody was sure the A's were going to sign Chavez after they let Tejada go.

by RichardP on May 2, 2005 6:22 PM PDT reply actions

about that last paragraph

We may not have known that it wasn't straight up Miggi for Chavy, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't in Beane's plans. There's no way for him to know that a guy's absolutely going to sign with the team (Foulke), but it's not crazy to think that Billy had an idea. Soon after it was announced that the A's would not offer a contract to Miggi, Peter Gammons and Rob Neyer wrote about the possibility that the plan was to keep Chavy. In fact, Gammons seemed very sure of it.

I can't speak for everyone else, but when I found out Miggi was leaving, I had a strong feeling that the A's were going to go after Chavez. My only question was if he would sign.

by Sharon on May 2, 2005 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions

This is why I'm asking everyone to vote Tejada

to the All-Star game. I will die if that Derek Jeter starts another All-Star game. NY is a big market and Jeter will definitely get the popular vote. The Baltimore Mkt along with the unbiased baseball fan and A's fans should be enough to get Miggy in as the starting SS for the AL. Let's face it, our Bobby Crosby doesn't stand a chance this yr, so let's put all our support behind one of our favourite former players and give him what he's deserving of: the starting short stop roster spot for the American League.

Vote Miggy to the All-star game. Make Jeter a has-been.

by sf drift king on May 2, 2005 7:50 PM PDT reply actions

He's got my vote

I just needed something new here, since the season had started ...

by devo on May 2, 2005 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions

Let me remind you

That Miggy found EVERY WAY HE COULD to CHOKE in the playoffs. At the plate (no show in both 2002 and 2003. Chavvy in contrast sucked in 2003 but was great in 2002), in the field (booted ground balls in 2002 and 2003 in crucial situations), on the basepaths (2001 and 2003). The man was a choke artist. He was money in the regular season, but he was a big part of why we never won a playoff series those 4 years.

I wouldn't want Billy Beane paying 12 million to a guy who not only couldn't get us past the first round in the playoffs, but MADE SURE we didn't.

by OaktownTribesman on May 2, 2005 9:12 PM PDT reply actions

I agree with you.

I was majorly pissed at how he choked away our WS chances with his play against the Redsox. But I do hope he gets the nod over Jeter in the AS game. He deserves it esp this yr. And besides, Jeter's overrated.

Vote Miggy to the All-star game. Make Jeter a has-been.

by sf drift king on May 2, 2005 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions

Devo et al .......

Sorry I didn't have the statistics at my fingertips earlier .... this is unbelievable to me, really.
Would you all really have me believe that Eric Chavez is a better ballplayer than Miguel Tejada?? Seriously, all kidding aside .... we don't watch the same game.
I guarantee you that if you took a poll amongst baseball GM's and managers today, and asked them who'd they'd rather have, it would be Tejada hands down.
You're talking about some guy who's "had the potential" to hit 45 bombs, etc. etc. etc. for years now compared to someone who mashes every game. This is laughable. You want stats? Chavez can't even hit his weight. What a joke.
I tell you what, who would you rather have in tomorrow's lineup? End of discussion.
I think Chavez is over-rated, but I do think he's a good ballplayer, and I'm glad he's on our team. But to say he's better than Tejada is just ridiculous. (Talk about "homers" -- Chavez could end up hitting .210, and you'd still defend the hack.)

VacaAsFan

by Vacafan on May 2, 2005 9:52 PM PDT reply actions

umm, yeah, whatever

"potential"

Okay, I believe in investing in potential - you don't, fine. But as long as Chavvy has the potential to hit 45 homeruns and they have exactly the same career high in homeruns - 34. But that's misleading - so, let's check out a rate state. Over the last 3 years, Miggie has hit 1 hr every 20.5 abs, Chavvy has hit one every 17.9 abs. So, lets see, I think that means Chavvy in actuality, not in potential, hits homeruns at a greater rate than Miggie. Chavvy also has a higher slg over the last three years if that's what you're into.

I just needed something new here, since the season had started ...

by devo on May 2, 2005 11:21 PM PDT up reply actions

AB's?

How about plate appearances?

by RichardP on May 3, 2005 12:11 AM PDT up reply actions

Ok ...

I won't argue with you .... I can't help but think a lot of the Chavez "support" comes from those who see one guy in an A's uniform, and another who is not -- your stats show them equal, I guess they're "equal."
Maybe it's the emotion I see in Tejada, or something else, I don't know -- maybe the frustration I have with Chavez -- but watching these guys night in and night out,there's just no question who I'd take.
I totally don't agree that Tejada has "peaked," I truly believe this guy is going to end up in the HOF. I don't see him slowing down offensively at all -- especially in Baltimore.
Again, all I ever see in Chavez is "potential." When does he put it all together and earn the richest deal in team history??

VacaAsFan

by Vacafan on May 3, 2005 5:04 AM PDT up reply actions

Here we go

It's totally wrong to say "who would you rather have in the lineup tomorrow". Obviously, Tejada. And obviously you are living and dying by April. But what if Chavez and Tejada switch places this month and Miggy did horrible why Chavez took the league by storm. Surely you'd choose Chavez, unless you are just plain ignorant which i don't think you are. So that doesn't win your discussion, because Beane didn't "choose" between them ( i don't even believe this is the case, Nathaniel Rounds makes a great point) based on how they do in April of 2005.... Why don't we wait a little longer...

This wouldn't even be a factor if Chavvy had played the whole season and have 40 homers (like he was on pace for).......

Conventional wisdom says 15 is too young to be an executive of a major sports franchise. Galileo and Einstein weren't conventional. Neither am i.

by ohad on May 3, 2005 4:25 AM PDT up reply actions

No, we couldn't have signed Miggy

because we still had Dye on the books at 12 million for 2004. That is the main reason that Beane choose Chavez over Tejada. He knew he could only keep one, and Chavez's contract didn't overlap with Dye's, and Miggy's did. That's why BB traded Eric Hinkse (3rd base prospect) to Toronto and kept Crosby.

by prospero on May 2, 2005 10:25 PM PDT reply actions

that's a good point

by OaklandSi on May 2, 2005 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions

Eric Chavez

How quickly we forget... After Chavez returned from his injury last season, he was on fire offensively. If we had some decent pitching down the stretch, we'd be in the playoffs instead of LAA and it would've been credited a lot to Chavvy's hot bat and how he started hitting left handed pitching and how he began taking it opposite field. Just wanted to remind those what a great 3rd baseman we have.

Vote Miggy to the All-star game. Make Jeter a has-been.

by sf drift king on May 2, 2005 11:39 PM PDT reply actions

Chavez has been the superior player

And it's not really close. They both starting playing significantly in 1999, Tejada was 23 and Chavez was 21. By the best statistical measures (EQA from baseball prospectus) Chavez was the better hitter every year except 2002 in which the difference is negligible (though to be fair they are basically the same in 99, 00, 02 and 04). To say that Tejada was the better player is simply revisionism.

As to who they should have kept well Chavez was younger, the better hitter and a better defensive player while Tejada played a position that was harder to replace. However Tejada's advantage was cancelled by the presence of Bobby Crosby. So based on the available information the choice was, and remains, clear.

The fact that Tejada has continued to play well and Chavez looks like a completely different player is irrelevant to the discussion though I will admit I'd like to know what is wrong.

by Gaelan on May 3, 2005 9:14 AM PDT reply actions