More love for Tejada, from Gammons (with poll)
Peter Gammons' latest piece on espn.com once again sings the praises of Miguel Tejada and identifies Big Mig as the force behind the Orioles' great start to 2005:
But the players point to one man as the main reason for the club's turnaround. "There's no doubt in my mind that Miggy [Tejada] is the best player in the game," Roberts says. "Start with his position. He's by far the best at a [the] middle-infield skill position. Then, if you watched us every day, you'd see [Tejada's] RBI are not a fluke. He has an uncanny ability to knock in runs. Then, most of all, there's his energy. He is always up, pushing everyone and making the entire team better.""I've never been around anyone like him," B.J. Surhoff says of Tejada.
"I played with Pete Rose and coached Kirby Puckett," Orioles hitting coach Terry Crowley says, "and Miggy is just like them. He is the best player in the game, hands-down. Like Rose and Puckett, he puts it out there every day, and they are those rare players off whom teammates feed. You can crunch every number you want, you can't put a premium on the energy one player can bring to an entire team. This franchise changed the day he arrived."
More, and the poll, after the jump.
More from the Gammons article:
Adds a Red Sox official: "We watched him from the stands during BP. And we could not believe his energy, his enthusiasm, and how teammates feed off him. He is special."Not to mention durable. "If some kid comes to the park to see me," Tejada says, "I had better be on the field." In the last five years (2001-2005, as of May 1), Tejada had played in 548 games, most of any player, and his 500 RBI rank third behind Albert Pujols' 504 and Alex Rodriguez's 501.
I agree. Sure, hindsight is 20-20, but I think Tejada was worth the long-term investment and we all knew that, even at the time he left. Doh!
Take the poll.
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question
by AllThingsOakland on May 2, 2005 10:24 AM PDT reply actions
The choice was Chavy or Miggi.
by saint @ Athletics Nation on May 2, 2005 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
at the time Miggy said
Hindsight's 20/20.
Miggy
by Reggie on May 2, 2005 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions
You're right - the season does start in April
This funny thing happens when you take the sum of all of those months the past couple of years and compare Chavvy's full season to Miggy's - Chavvy's season, by almost every measure .... is better, despite his chronic April problems. Of the 7 seasons coming into this years that Chavvy has been in the majors, he has had a higher OPS than Miggy in all but one of them. That being the year Miggy won the MVP, edging Chavvy .862 to .861. Given that, as one might expect, Chavvy easily beats Miggy career-wise .849 to .816.
do you have this copied in a file somewhere
I like to keep my
After all
by Inquisitor on May 2, 2005 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions
OPS comparison unfair.
Tejada
VORP
2002 - 66.4
2003 - 58.1
2004 - 73.0
Win Shares
2002 - 32 (25.01 Bat, 6.94 field)
2003 - 25 (18.45 bat, 6.89 field)
2004 - 30 (22.5 bat, 7.1 field)
Chavez
VORP
2002 - 51.4
2003 - 61.6
2004 - 45.5
Win Shares
2002 - 25 (20.65 bat, 4.54 field)
2003 - 25 (18.26 bat, 6.43 field)
2004 - 19 (15 bat, 3.9 field)
I would have also showen WARP had I been able to find the numbers (which I wasn't)
If you don't like VORP or Win Shares (and truthfully, I don't know how much I trust Win Shares for defense) obviously it's not going to convince anyone either way, but I think they give a better look at player performance than straight OPS does.
Note: if any of my WS numbers are wrong, please tell me.
by Wezlar on May 2, 2005 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions
2004 Vorp
-Billy Beane
It's not unfair to compare OPS
I'm missing Tejada more than ever
Hindsight is 20/20 of course, we all know this. And Tejada was a wonderful player. And a wonderful guy. And in a ideal player basically. What will we say when Chavez has this month and Tejada goes 0-June? The tides will turn eventually.
Don't take this as sticking up for Chavvy or hating on Tejada. I love the guy, and i miss him just as mmuch as the rest of us. But i'm tired of seeing the chavez bashing and stuff. Last year was Tejadas first year without us. Why don't we wait the lenght of the deal before using hindisght?
Because...
by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Sure they would
I would like to see if Tejada...
He was a huge liability for us in our appearances.
That being said, he is on my fantasy team this year, and I couldn't be happier.
the guy
by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions
"when tejada was in ...
The same could be said for Terrence Long. From 1993 on, ever single year he's worn the Green and Gold we've made the playoffs. Ever single year he hasn't, we haven't ... hmm, makes you think, doesn't it?
T. Long
by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Here's some Latin for you
It means "after, therefore becase"
You implied that because Miggie left, we didn't make the playoffs. The problem with your logic is that other guys left too - including T Long and Ramon Hernandez, who were both around for the entire 4 year run. Not only that, but other things changed too - the Big 3 became the Big 1 (when healthy) and the enigmatic 2 and the bullpen forgot that only hitters are supposed to take part in batting practice.
I am convinced that
by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions
While I appreciate the compliment
Are you arguing that Zito sucking 2 out of every 3 starts, Mulder forgetting how to pitch for 3 months, and Huddy being injured didn't affect the team?
Are you arguing that the bullpen being a tad less than stellar didn't affect the team?
Are you arguing that Miggy would have somehow shored up the rotation and the bullpen if we had kept him? Perhaps he could have also invented an age reversing serum and given it to Jermaine Dye and taught Mongo how to field so he could give Hatty a day off? Maybe he could have also negotiated a deal to keep Huddy and Mulder on contracts with perennial club options, a la Tim Wakefield?
Or maybe ... just maybe, whether we made the playoffs or not last year and what happens this year and beyond has a little something to do with things other than just the Miggie v Chavvy debate ....
Of course
We know where we each stand on Tejada vs. Chavez; the whole situation just gets under the skin of many A's fans, especially when Tejada is going off, getting more attention on the East Coast and being called the best player in the game. We have nothing else to compare this to since the A's finally chose to sign one of their own homegrown stars over another and it has backfired so far.
by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Fair enough
oh please.
But don't even HINT that Tejada isn't the better player, by far!
No comparison.
See Devo's excellent post above
-Billy Beane
by kaweahkaweah on May 2, 2005 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Yet another well reasoned
Kudos, Vacafan!
you crack me up.
i'm sure binders of supporting documentation
option #1 is really obvious
by suggy on May 2, 2005 12:02 PM PDT reply actions
Age was a factor
by West Bay A s Fan on May 2, 2005 12:52 PM PDT reply actions
Another entry
He has more of an 'upside'? Ladies and gentleman, Mel Kiper Jr. has joined AN!
When might we get to witness this 'upside' and don't you generally consider 'upside' when choosing who to sign through their arbitration years rather than save it for 8 figure per year deals?
by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions
His less than PC comment is still true
Do a little
If their stated media guide age has them only 18 months apart then do you think that by the time they are in the last year of their contracts that Tejada will be taking Celebrex and Chavez will doing triathlons in his spare time? The age difference is negligible.
by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Or you could just go down to San Diego
No, I hope Chavvy isn't doing triathalons in his spare time by the end of his contract - I hope, since he'd be aging, that he'd be resting in the offseason to keep himself as healthy as possible. Perhaps Miggy will be doing triathalons, he might defy the odds. Funny thing about defying the odds though, most people don't.
In the great majority of cases, if you are choosing between signing two players of comperable talent and of comperable stature to comperable long term contracts, you will have a much greater return on your investment if you sign the younger player. Those are the odds. Billy Beane likes to do business with the odds on his side - so do I. But then again, I don't like to chase gut shot straight draws to the river when there's a flush on the board.
Or Los Angeles
Tejada isn't typical - he was shining shoes when Chavez was practicing his autograph. Talk about defying the odds.
Take intangibles into consideration and sign the better player period.
For the record, how old do you think Tejada is?
by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Zing!
For the record, I don't have any reason to doubt that Miggie is the age he says he is. I'd say that I'm about 90% certain that his age is accurate. At the same time, I'm 99.something% sure that Chavvy's age is accurate, so that 9.something% difference is another factor that we should work into the equation.
Pros for Chavvy
Younger
More reliable age (only slightly)
Better stats every single year
Better defensively
Pros for Miggie
"Intangibles"
Fan favorite (the guy is my favorite player)
RBIs (may be considered subset of intangibles)
Stamina
The factors for Chavvy can be added up fairly accurately - which is probably a reason why the more statistically inclined tend to lean towards him.
He is your favorite player!
Speaking of favorites, I would say that 50% of my reasoning for getting the MLB Extra Innings package this year was to watch Tejada, Hudson and Mulder on a semi-regular basis, 25% to watch upcoming A's opponents and 25% to just increase the odds of a game always being on.
by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions
My 4 favorite players of all time have been
But, back to my point, those guys are still all favorites of mine - that isn't diminished because they aren't wearing the Green and Gold. Although I am happy (strangely enough) when the A's lose occasionally - more often than not, I want them to win, and, objectively and given the realities of our situation, that goal was best served by letting those guys move on.
Gut shot straight draws...
Just kidding...I don't really do that...much.
My runner-to-runner straight draw with a 2-3 non-suited in the hole was pretty thrilling, though. Nothing like a move like that to get the table riled up, too.
by LD on May 2, 2005 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions
birth certificates..
anyway, I like both players.
Q.E.D.
by AllThingsOakland on May 2, 2005 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
My point about school
Ah, I see..
by AllThingsOakland on May 2, 2005 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
That comment was light humor
Good points in referring to fans. True fans do not have a "what have you done for me lately attitude." I think too many people on this site have read Moneyball and think they can do it better...now that someone else has pointed out the method.
Ask Oklahoma's
by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions
come on now
Leadership -
ultimate test of his effectiveness."
-GEN Omar Bradley
One other overlooked tidbit...
-Billy Beane
There was this one guys ... what was his name?
If
by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, if it worked okay for some guy named A-Rod
-Billy Beane
Ummm ... Hinske ?
by green star oakland on May 2, 2005 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Have you seen that dude
by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions
does anyone here
If you only listen to Gammons, you may start thinking that Hanley Ramirez is the best prospect/human being ever. Or that David Ortiz is actually the best player in the game.
I'm not blaming Gammons. That column was a nice tribute to Miggy Magic...and I loved that magic. But I'm not the only one questioning the "best player" tag. I guarantee there are many players on other teams that think the best player is in their clubhouse.
No, I don't believe that
-Billy Beane
I think a lot of this discussion
-Billy Beane
I agree to a certain extent.
true, plus if crosby was kickin' ass in '05
Best player
Would Tejada be the best player on the A's if he were a member of the A's today? Yes.
by MJB on May 2, 2005 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Who is better today?
Pujols
Beltran
Ichiro
Jeter
Vlad
Tejada certainly belongs in the discussion.
by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Does health factor into the equation?
Better:
Pujols
Vlad
A-Rod
Rolen
Berkman (at least in a month, once he's fully healthy)
Borderline
Ramirez (depending on defense)
Beltre
Mora
Sheffield
Ichiro
Edmonds
Texeira
Chavez
Beltran (though I think he's fairly overrated)
Helton
Cabrera
and, of course, contingent on the answer to the first question, Bonds should be worked into that first group somewhere.
Of course, this list is based on the assumption that he doesn't keep up his current pace, which would leave him at 61 homeruns, 216 RBIs, and an OPS of 1.154, which would equal the number of homeruns he hit in his last two years combined, have him break the all time RBI record in early September, and top his career high OPS by 260 points. Suffice it to say, I think it's pretty likely he slows down a bit.
Chavez y Chavez
by heatchaser on May 2, 2005 1:29 PM PDT reply actions
Emotional Outbursts
Anyway comparing Chavez and Miggy in such a way is like comparing night and day. I'm sure Miggy did a lot of cursing, screaming, and crying during his April 2003 slump and it didn't help pull him out of it. But that was Miggy's way and we all loved him for it.
Until I hear Chavez say, "I know I'm not playing well, but I don't care because I get paid anyway.", I'll rightly assume that he's at least as unhappy as we are about the slump he is in (or in the process of snapping out of).
I'd rather see him
I wanted both...
by LD on May 2, 2005 2:48 PM PDT reply actions
The Book, Chapter 11, Page 248 Hardback
Seems like there's a substantial number of ANers not showing a lot of trust in Billy.
Well...
by southofcruiseamerica on May 2, 2005 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions
I believe in Chavvy
That said, I have maintained consistently that I support his contract and if it came down to a choice between him and Miggy (which I guess it did), I think the choice was obvious because of his obvious talent and potential.
However, that didn't stop me from being upset that we lost Miggy and wishing we could have had both. I do, however, think people are forgetting about the potential of Miggy's replacement....Crosby was stellar defensively last year and hit a ton. I miss him in the lineup a lot this year.
by LD on May 2, 2005 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree totally
And I adore Miggy and miss him dearly. But I love cheering him on in the AL East, watching him do his thang against the Two Evil Empires!
miggy always !
Anyhow, I have Miggy on my fantasy team -- passed on Chavez -- so I can't be totally unhappy. Plus if the Orioles beat out those other East teams, it'll be great for baseball.
True...
by heatchaser on May 2, 2005 3:24 PM PDT reply actions
Tejada makes others around him better?
That said...I don't know that he makes everyone around him better. In fact, I can't find any empirical evidence to that effect. But overt displays of emotions are in vogue these days, and the same reason that people think Macha is incapable will lead people to think that Chavvy doesn't care. But some people just don't play angry.
Remember that if we had signed Tejada, the Breakup of the Big Three (BOBT) would have occurred last year, not this year. And I don't think we could have gotten as much in return for Huddy and Mulder at that time because the market for pitchers hadn't blown up. When the asking price for pitchers this winter skyrocketed, Beane was able to extract a king's ransom by working the Cardinals against the Braves.
Chavez will come around. Kendall will come around. All it takes is a little faith, and some pixie dust...
I voted...
One great April...
I'm glad Tejada had a great April. But in each of the last five years he's had an OPS between .800 and .900 and I think it's a pretty safe that he'll end up in that range again for 2005. The exact same thing is true of Eric Chavez. Their career offensive numbers looked pretty similar just before the A's made their decision about them, and they still do.
by matthias on May 2, 2005 3:52 PM PDT reply actions
MIGGY V. CHAVVY
Chavez: 150hits .280AVG 30HR
Tejada: 183hits .287AVG 31HR
We've all been witness to the best of Miggy, I dont think we've seen all of Chavez just yet. The potential there is phenomenal.
by heatchaser on May 2, 2005 4:03 PM PDT reply actions
DUDE!
by runtru1 on May 2, 2005 4:35 PM PDT reply actions
It's all about potential
Anybody who thinks Tejada is better is simply a homer. That's all there is to it - you're no better than Joe Morgan or Jon Kruk.
by rickeytime on May 2, 2005 4:56 PM PDT reply actions
I don't believe
Exactly.
OPS
I do know that Tejada leads the majors in RBI's over the past three years. He's third by 3 runs over the past 5 years. He's leading the majors right now. He will probably be leading the majors at the end of this year again.
I also can't measure how Tejada's presence affects his teammates. It just can't be done. But I think it's generally agreed that Tejada is more of a team leader and can inspire his teammates better than Chavez.
With very close OPS's, I would take leadership and RBI's over a year or three of youth, especially with Tejada's amazing durability.
We all forget that when Tejada left, we still had doubts as to if the team was ever going to sign everybody. It wasn't a straight up Miggy vs Chavy decision when they told Tejada they weren't going to offer him a contract. At that point, we had let Giambi, Isringhausen, and Damon all go. Nobody was sure the A's were going to sign Chavez after they let Tejada go.
by RichardP on May 2, 2005 6:22 PM PDT reply actions
about that last paragraph
I can't speak for everyone else, but when I found out Miggi was leaving, I had a strong feeling that the A's were going to go after Chavez. My only question was if he would sign.
This is why I'm asking everyone to vote Tejada
Let me remind you
I wouldn't want Billy Beane paying 12 million to a guy who not only couldn't get us past the first round in the playoffs, but MADE SURE we didn't.
by OaktownTribesman on May 2, 2005 9:12 PM PDT reply actions
I agree with you.
by sf drift king on May 2, 2005 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Devo et al .......
Would you all really have me believe that Eric Chavez is a better ballplayer than Miguel Tejada?? Seriously, all kidding aside .... we don't watch the same game.
I guarantee you that if you took a poll amongst baseball GM's and managers today, and asked them who'd they'd rather have, it would be Tejada hands down.
You're talking about some guy who's "had the potential" to hit 45 bombs, etc. etc. etc. for years now compared to someone who mashes every game. This is laughable. You want stats? Chavez can't even hit his weight. What a joke.
I tell you what, who would you rather have in tomorrow's lineup? End of discussion.
I think Chavez is over-rated, but I do think he's a good ballplayer, and I'm glad he's on our team. But to say he's better than Tejada is just ridiculous. (Talk about "homers" -- Chavez could end up hitting .210, and you'd still defend the hack.)
umm, yeah, whatever
Okay, I believe in investing in potential - you don't, fine. But as long as Chavvy has the potential to hit 45 homeruns and they have exactly the same career high in homeruns - 34. But that's misleading - so, let's check out a rate state. Over the last 3 years, Miggie has hit 1 hr every 20.5 abs, Chavvy has hit one every 17.9 abs. So, lets see, I think that means Chavvy in actuality, not in potential, hits homeruns at a greater rate than Miggie. Chavvy also has a higher slg over the last three years if that's what you're into.
Ok ...
Maybe it's the emotion I see in Tejada, or something else, I don't know -- maybe the frustration I have with Chavez -- but watching these guys night in and night out,there's just no question who I'd take.
I totally don't agree that Tejada has "peaked," I truly believe this guy is going to end up in the HOF. I don't see him slowing down offensively at all -- especially in Baltimore.
Again, all I ever see in Chavez is "potential." When does he put it all together and earn the richest deal in team history??
Here we go
This wouldn't even be a factor if Chavvy had played the whole season and have 40 homers (like he was on pace for).......
No, we *couldn't* have signed Miggy
Eric Chavez
Chavez has been the superior player
As to who they should have kept well Chavez was younger, the better hitter and a better defensive player while Tejada played a position that was harder to replace. However Tejada's advantage was cancelled by the presence of Bobby Crosby. So based on the available information the choice was, and remains, clear.
The fact that Tejada has continued to play well and Chavez looks like a completely different player is irrelevant to the discussion though I will admit I'd like to know what is wrong.
by Gaelan on May 3, 2005 9:14 AM PDT reply actions

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