No such thing as a great bullpen

more than half relievers dont have the stamina to start, unless thats what you ment.

Of course there are great bullpens. The A's bullpens of the late 80s were great: they made mediocre starters look good, and good ones look great. The Angels bullpen of '02 and the Yankees bullpen of '04 were great. The A's bullpen of '05 has the potential to be great.

It makes no sense at all to say there is such a thing as a terrible bullpen but no such thing as a great one. If you can measure the quality of a bullpen then some are going to come out at the high end of the range; they are the ones you call great.

A big factor that determines whether a pitcher should be a starter or reliever, is pitch selection and pitching smarts...the ability to mix up and confuse a batter over multiple face-offs, as opposed to just simply out performing the batter in a particular at-bat.

You'll find a lot of pitchers with good stuff, but sub-standard results will make great relievers...Juan Cruz is a good example of that...sometimes it's because they don't have great off-speed stuff, or they don't have a change-up, or they only have 2 pitches (like k-rod)...

but the bottom line is that the criteria for a pitching staff is more than just making the top five the starters and the bottom seven the relievers

using pithcers in a non-standard way. Say, for example a pitcher is excellent the first two times through the lineup, but gets smoked the third time, you could start the bullpen and finish with the starter. Or if Zito doesn't have "it" against Tampa Bay and you discover it early so you throw Harden and hopefully Zito will have "it" in 2 days. The problem is that when you have roles you know what is expected of you there are no surprises, but when you don't know what your job from day-to-day is it can cause stress on the pitchers, which probably wouldn't be helpful. However, maybe the stress on the opposing lineup not knowing who is coming at them would be stressful as well. Either way, this will probably never happen. If it did ever happen it would be pretty exciting to watch though

in the playoffs, starters can become relievers.  so i think that implies that starters are starters in the regular season because they can be counted on to pitch a lot of quality innings, whereas in the playoffs you only operate one series at a time.  and a great bullpen is one that can emulate the starters, i.e., provide good pitching after the starters are done.  since it's only necessary that they do it for a few innings, then you can get away with using 2-pitch pitchers, for example.

Most relievers are just not good enough to be starters.  Some seem to just be cut out for "relief" - they can only dominate in short bursts.  But they are (like Gagne) the exception, not the rule.  In fact, prevailing wisdom was to use Gagne as a starter - he only became a "closer" out of necessity and frustration - as you point out.  So I would counter that these so-called relievers are just short duration guys.  There will be guys that can't stay strong for as long, but should they necessarily be pigeon-holed as "setup" men or "closers".  Isn't the start of the game against Boston just as important as the 8th inning of a 6-2 game against KC?

he had another closer blow yet another dominant start last night. He has avearged over 7 innings per start for years - All of Foulks blown saves two years ago were Huddy's starts.
Or Bob Welch who won 27 games for the A's in a season with 2 complete games averaging 6 2/3 innings - Eck saved 19 of those wins!!
Last year if the A's had a bullpen they would have made the playoffs - they led the AL in blown saves.
The Angels won the WS without a #1 starter as good as the 3 A's starters! - Bullpen!!

   Your post is an interesting one but I have issues with your suppositions.
   Using the A's as an expample, did BB go out to create a "great' pen or to improve on the one he had? Any team blowing 28 saves in 1 year would cause a reaction in any half-witted GM. Last year's model of extending pitcher's such as Mulder deeper into games and watching them burn out would be enough impetus for re- thinking your strategy regarding pitching. BB essentially stated that he couldn't expect more this year out of the B3 than what he saw last. Nor did he have the resources to do so. Thus, why not get some talented young pitchers who may not have to go so far into games initially, until they prove they can attain a quality start on a regular basis.
   Being influenced by La Russa's model of shortening the game with his use of Eckersly is a strong case in point. If you can shorten it by 1 inning than why not 2 or 3? If a pitcher , late in a game can perform better  than a starter still pitching in inning 6,7,or 8, why not bring him in? Who cares if he was a failed starter? This activity of course led to looking for pitchers through statistical analysis that led to the emergence of pitchers such as our LOOGY, Ricardo Rincon, who has been brought in for very specific circumstances.
   So will we see relief pitchers blowing down the door getting into Cooperstown? No way, but there is no reason to find great relief pitchers in each generation distiniguishing themselves from the rest. Likewise, managers and teams with the resources can generate great staffs (including the pen) that are superior to others.
   I agree, Iceplant (nasty stuff BTW when your golf ball ends up in it), that relief pitchers sample size can be a bit skewed based upon the types of hitters they are exposed to.
   Great pens form rarely. We have to acknowlege teams that have assembled them when it happens. If it were easy, all the teams would have them. They are comprised of pitchers that were former starters (Eck) and pitchers that turn into great starters (Hershiser).
   Regarding the role of a pitching staff with no roles defined, it happens all of the time in Little League  or Pony Baseball. That's not meant as an insult. When players reach a higher level, they do become creatures of habit. Peterson's handling of our B3 was a great example of success through routine. If Zito has a bad outing, making him available 2 days later might work but may affect his overall performance over the course of an entire season.
Why mess with his confidence?
   Oakland and other WS winners have had great pens in the past. It will continue to happen but there are so many factors that go into developing them, that the process acheiving a great pen is usually only seen in relative terms and also very rare.

I think the Eck proved you wrong.  Some pitcher pitch great the first time through the lineup and drop off.  This kind of pitcher make a good relief pitcher.

The importance of a bullpin was demonstrated last year.

It takes a special mental ability to pitch the 9th with a one run lead.  Closers are not over rated.

162 games is a marathon.
When the season is done and you are in the playoffs wouldn't you like your 3 best starters fresh for the playoffs?
And if so, wouldn't that be easier with 8 inning games than with 9 inning games. and easier yet with 6 or 7 inning games?
and if that is so and a 300 game winning starter  called Eck still has the ability AND DRIVE to pitch 1 to 3 innings, wouldn't it be logical to insert him there?
And since that is logical, isn't it also logical to have a very dynamic lefty named Honeycutt pitch the 8th, to set the Eck up?
But what if you win games in bunches? You don't want to run these guys down in consecutive games, ... good thing Geno was available.

Ex starters as relievers is more logical than college kids.

• They have seen and done it all
  
• They know what they are doing
  
• They know who is holding the bat
  
• They know how to prepare
  
• They field better, and back up plays better, get involved in run downs, and make late inning defense of the infield an asset.
  
• They VALUE the role of reliever and what it can do for their career, livelihood, and ache for glory
  
• Their reputation is instant creditibility with the rest of the team.
  
• Pitchers in their mid twenties vs mid thirties do not have the same resiliency or body strengths, reliever is more resilient.
  
• A reliever adds drama to the last inning and that is GOOD gate.

       BUT MOST OF ALL!

        Offenses had hitters of all descript on the benches to pinch-hit in the late innings. It was only a matter of time before "late innings" pitchers were waiting on the benches to greet them.