Sportsline: Contrasting A's and Angels on hitting
The sportsline.com preview of the LAAOA is all about the difference between the Angels' hitting philosophy and that of the A's.
There are many phrases you might hear if you hang around manager Mike Scioscia's Angels long enough during the course of a season. "A walk is as good as a hit" probably won't be one of them.In an American League West containing the calculating and picky Oakland Athletics in one corner, the Angels are the undisciplined cousin who lives life by impulse.
In an AL West in which the Athletics have enjoyed great success by choosing pitches with more care and selection than your grandmother uses in picking out eggs at the supermarket, the Angels last year ranked 14th -- last -- in the league in walks.
You can improve your OBP by getting hits, not just walks, say the Angels:
The Angels share a belief with the Athletics in the importance of on-base percentage. But they do not share a belief with Oakland that walks are an integral part of boosting it.While the Angels ranked 14th in the AL and 28th in baseball last year with 450 walks, Oakland was third in the AL and fifth in the majors with 608.
Yet, in on-base percentage, while Oakland ranked fifth in the AL and ninth in the majors at .343, the Angels were right with them -- sixth in the AL and 13th in the majors at .341. And on the final weekend of the season, the Swingin' Angels won the first two games of a series in Oakland to steal the division title.
Garret Anderson, perhaps unintentionally, agrees with something I've always said: "A walk is as good as a hit" only when the bases are empty. A walk, obviously, won't score the tying run from scoring position with two outs in the eighth.
"Pitchers throw strikes, and you've got to swing the bat," left fielder Garret Anderson says. "In theory, (walking) sounds good, but you've still got to swing the bat and get those guys to score."Ah, but then we get to one big reason for the difference in philosophy:
Certainly, the Athletics have had terrific success with their style of play -- especially when you consider that the Angels payroll the past few seasons has dwarfed Oakland's, allowing them in theory to sign a few more talented players (last year and again this season, the Angels payroll will be around $100 million and Oakland's will be little more than half of that, roughly $60 million). While Oakland, partly due to financial limitations, is very specific in searching for players who fit into its philosophy -- the Scott Hattebergs and Erubiel Durazos -- the Angels concentrate on finding players who will play well in Scioscia's move-runners-over, keep-the-pressure-on-the-defense style.Absolutely, if I can afford Vladimir Guerrero, I won't tell him to stand there with the bat on his shoulder. If all I can afford is Hatty and Ruby, then maybe I tell them to just get on base any way they can. Duh.
Still, though, beyond the money, it is a difference in philosophy between Beaneball and Scioscia's 1970s-era approach to generating runs:
"When you hit and run, certain percentages in your game are going to go down," Erstad says. "There are not going to be many walks because you're swinging early in the count. That's just the way it is."You know what? It's aggressive, but it's not crazy. You still understand there are parts of the game where you need to take advantage of certain situations. Compared to other teams, we sure don't walk much."
But compared to other teams, well ... the Angels won the World Series in '02 and gave themselves a chance to win again in '04. Whatever gets you through the night.
"There are different philosophies, but who's to say which one is right?" Erstad says. "You can analyze it until you're blue in the face, but this is the way Sosh wants to play ball. This is the way they set this team up.
"This is the way we're going to do it."
Vive la difference. Let's start the season.
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22 comments
Comments
Let them waste their outs
By that logic, a pop-up won't score the run either, and you'll just end the inning to boot. The same with a grounder, a fly-out, a whiff, a foul-out, a dribbler, a line-out, a foul bunt, a foul tip, etc. With a walk at least you prolong the inning and give the next guy a chance to knock in a run, or, if the bases are loaded, to walk in a run. Plus you drive up the pitcher's pitch count and wear him out mentally.
by OaktownTribesman on Mar 23, 2005 5:50 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
good points
by xbhaskarx on Mar 23, 2005 7:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
they miss one of the main points
A by-product of this is increased BB and OBP. But one of the main reasons OBP is important is that there is a strong correlation between OBP and SLG...
by dude on Mar 23, 2005 8:50 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Lack of common sense
Here's why:
- How did the Giants, with one certified Big Bopper and a bunch of also-rans, score as many runs last year as the bopper-laden Cardinals? Answer -- walks. Over the course of the season, all those extra walks to Barry gave the Giants a great advantage in scoring opportunities over the Cardinals.
- Man on first. Next batter, even if he's a good hitter, gets out two times out of three. So, one-third of the time, the following batter is down one or two (DP) outs. With a walk, there's a 100% chance that the next batter has two men on, and the outs situation the same, a far better situation. Walks kill you. Doesn't Mike Scosia wonder why?
- Barry Bonds walked something like 250 times last year. If he'd been allowed to hit, he would have made 180 outs. That's what those walks gave away.
- OBP is, IMHO, more a function of walks than hits. History shows great hitters who have lousy and great patience, but neither approach translates into a higher OBP. It is plate discipline that brings ont he walks.
- Perhaps in a short series you want better hitters, since the percentage advantage of high walks may not play out, but great hitters cost more, are harder to come by, and slump more than great walkers. And the difference last year between the Angels and not the A's making the playoffs was not one of Angels hitting, but due to A's pitching.
by dingerpower on Mar 23, 2005 9:23 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Dinger
However, building a team with undervalued players (high OBP) is how they end up even reaching the playoffs. Kudos to BB and staff for deducing which charachteristics are undervalued and can produce a winner.
by carp on Mar 23, 2005 11:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Playoffs vs. regular season
I remember saying, "Put the bat on the ball and get a [bleeping] hit" a few times during that playoff series against the Twins, when it seemed that the A's were leaving runners in scoring position almost every inning and that certain batters almost wanted to try and walk rather than trying to get a clutch hit and a RBI.
Of course, whether your team is built to win in the playoffs is only relevant if your team gets there.
by MJB on Mar 23, 2005 11:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Playoffs
Why are people always blaming our hitting philosophy for the A's first round chokes? Scoring has never been a problem for the A's in the playoffs, it's been winning that 3rd game period. It's foolish to think that it's the A's plate discipline that cost us those 4 series, as opposed to say a bloop single by T-Long here, or a slide into homeplate by Jeremy Giambi there. Just face it that we were so close to winning that there is no inherent flaw in our strategy for why we didn't, it's just that we choked/messed up/caught a bad break more often than not. Blame it on nerves, on makeup, on inexperience, but not on patience.
by OaktownTribesman on Mar 23, 2005 12:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Then there was Game 5 vs. Boston
by carp on Mar 23, 2005 12:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
T-Long and Melhuse
by OaktownTribesman on Mar 23, 2005 12:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
But in reality
by rook on Mar 23, 2005 2:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Not the hitting
When a player goes to bat, it is impossible to know if he will hit, walk, or get an out. No way to tell. Doesn't matter if he's Teddy Ballgame or below the Mendoza line. In that at bat, he can hit one of two averages: zero and 1.000. And every player has the same opportunity.
What is paramount in most people's memories of the A's failures in the playoffs is not poor pitching or poor hitting (tho I finger poor pitching among the two), but bonehead plays by the players -- Jeremy, Miguel, Byrnes, etc.
And bonehead moves by the manager. Long ago it became clear that Joe Torre manages differently in a playoff than he does in the regular season -- and that Art Howe never did.
Mental mistakes by the managers and by the players. I bet if one kept track, one could find a lot of bonehead moves throughout the year -- that should have been correctable, if the managers weren't also boneheads.
I just hope the A's can play the game more intelligently this year. That alone should bring them three games.
by dingerpower on Mar 23, 2005 8:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The goal for an offense
Last year Oakland led the Angels in OBP (.343 to .341) and SLG (.433 to .429). The A's also hit more homeruns (189 to 162). Yet the Angels outscored the A's 836 to 793 ranking 7th in the AL to the A's 9th place. Their team BA beat the A's .282 to .270.
Walks, on their own, are very good things. Patience at the plate, which leads to swinging at hitters' pitches or getting a walk, is great for an offense. But so is the base hit that scores the runner from 2nd.
If we had scored as many runs as the Angels last year, we would have won the division.
Are walks now overrated? This winter Billy Beane added a high BA guy in Jason Kendall (and perhaps Charles Thomas). I wouldn't be surprised if the A's front office is able to "reweight" OBP, giving more credit for OBP that comes from BA rather than from walks.
by ervance on Mar 23, 2005 10:00 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
there is a reason for that - luck
The A's were below there expected RS total, the Angels were above. That is, to a large extent, luck.
by dude on Mar 23, 2005 10:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
There's another reason.
The nine-player hitting lineup the Angels fielded last year cost (according to Hardball Dollars) $59.85M, a number close to the A's entire 25-man payroll.
By contrast, the 9-man lineup the A's had last year cost them $31.55M, which includes Jermaine Dye's wasted eleven mil. So yes, $60M does buy you more baseball player than $31M, even as wisely as the A's spend.
by Nate on Mar 23, 2005 11:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We can't have high OBP guys like
A walk is great...but RBI guys need to drive in runs when ducks are on the pond.
by carp on Mar 23, 2005 11:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Walks are very valuable for a million reasons: table setting, tiring out pitchers, increasing odds, looks at more pitches, etc.
But a Carp says, Chavez, Byrnes and Durazo need to drive in runs.
By the way, good plate discipline doesn't mean just waiting for a walk; it's waiting for the right pitch to hit. Yes, swinging at a bad pitch (or a tough pitch) is more likely to lead to a groundout than a hit.
by Eck on Mar 24, 2005 8:29 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Getting a hit isn't a given
You speak as if getting a hit is just a matter of choice. Well, 6 out 10 times that ball put in play is going to be an out. And that's if a good hitter is at the plate. The odds aren't on your side if you're free-swinging.
by OaktownTribesman on Mar 23, 2005 12:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah but you can't just take a walk at will
remember a certain T Long performance anyone?
by rickeytime on Mar 23, 2005 2:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Great Points Ervance
by Eck on Mar 24, 2005 8:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The real test for Scoscia
by Nick on Mar 23, 2005 10:28 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Correct
by MJB on Mar 23, 2005 11:50 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

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