What's the Goal?
[EDITOR'S NOTE] I think this is a fascinating discussion and a great post by Eck. I wanted to call this to everyone's attention because I think it's especially relevant after this past winter for our A's.
See, I believe that the A's goal is field a competitive team in the American League West every season. The A's front office truly believes that the playoffs are a crapshoot, so all they have to do is field a team good enough to win the West...and I think part of the impetus for the moves this past offseason was to make the team good enough to compete in the division for the next 5-10 years. Keeping Mulder and Hudson would've made it possible for the short term, but Billy wants to always be ahead of the game. He prides himself in being ahead of the game. But the hypothetical question that Eck proposes below is a good one. Would you trade one World Series victory for years of stagnation? I don't think I would. - Blez
There are many excellent discussions going on in the "Hudson Signs!!!" diary, and I wanted to draw special attention to one point.
The obvious point is that signing a great player to a long-term contract usually means you are paying for past performance and, at the end, the team gets stuck with a rediculously expensive player who is not very productive.
That's the debate about Hudson. We all loved him. Most of us agree he'll be more productive than Meyer, Cruz and Thomas THIS year. And most of us agree that by the fourth year that's gonna be $13 million the Braves will wish they could use for something else.
xbhaskarx posted a very interesting hypothetical question on that diary:
"what about jason giambi?"
Today it looks like the A's were super smart to let the Yankees pay Giambi so much over so many years. Let's face it, even the A's offer of $91 million over seven years would have killed us in 2004, 2005, 2006 and beyond.
BUT ... I would argue that Jason Giambi on the 2002 Athletics would be our best shot at winning the World Series.
Sure, it's all hypothetical and nothing is guaranteed, but building a team is ALWAYS hypothetical.
Isn't the goal to win a World Series? Or is it to simply field a pretty good team for as many years as you can?
If we could have won in 2002, would it be worth the pain of the team being pretty bad now?
Now this is different from the dabte over Hudson because I don't believe the A's wcould win the World Series in 2005 even if we kept him -- and, obviously, neither did Billy Beane.
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53 comments
Comments
Two points of view
versus
(2) Long-term health of the franchise depends on attendance, attendance depends on winning (and market). Sacrifice 4 or 5 years for one World Series, and maybe the franchise digs itself into a sinkhole that it can't get out of.
I don't know what's more important, but I think I know which side the owners would err to.
by salb918 on Mar 1, 2005 1:49 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I would say...
For example, say we had Giambi and we entered the second round-- we would have ran into a red-hot Angels team that probably wasn't the best team in the league that year, but on that particular October could have pulverized anyone. (I mean, when Adam Kennedy gets 3 HRs in a game...) I question if the A's, even with Giambi, would have fared any better than the Twins did. Postseasons are tricky. :)
I would say if it was a lock that one would win the World Series with that one player, then yes, it would be worth losing several years of quality (partially because WS winners also get a slight boost in attendance and the like), but my counter-point is that you just don't know and it's impossible to tell, and it's not a lock to win the World Series no matter what lineup you run out, and it's therefore more foolish to go make one run for it rather than a string of successive postseason chances where, eventually, breaks will fall our way.
by Trocmagic on Mar 1, 2005 2:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Without Giambi ...
But, Oaktoon, you missed the point of my question.
The A's did have an option to keep Giambi in 2002; it just meant they would also have to keep him through 2009.
by Eck on Mar 1, 2005 2:01 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Who knows
If the 2002 A's had gotten A-Rod, Sheffield, kept Giambi, I'm sure everybody would say the A's would sweep the playoffs. Yet the Yanks had all three plus other stars like Mussina, Brown, Rivera, Jeter, and they still didn't manage to win it all. They've tacked on an extra 100 million dollars in search of their WS ring, and it still eludes them. That tells me that no matter how good the 2002 A's "could've" been, there's no reason to think they'd do better in the playoffs than they did. If we had been swept, I mean crushed in the 2002 ALDS, then yes, it would've made a difference to keep Giambi. The fact that 2002 was blown because of a couple booted grounders, a hurt pitcher hiding his injury, and a fat fastball down the middle for a certain A.J. Pieceofshitsky, makes me think that there's no reason to think Giambi would've helped either way.
by OaktownTribesman on Mar 1, 2005 2:10 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
When you consider the pitching,
Yes, the A's lost to the Twins on some fluke-y stuff, but maybe scoring a few more runs would have over come that.
Of course we'll never now if Giambi would have made the difference in 2002. But let's assume signing him would have meant we win in 2002 ... and then we're very mediocre until his contract ends after 2009, would you do it?
by Eck on Mar 1, 2005 2:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
by OaktownTribesman on Mar 1, 2005 3:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like a plan to me
Also, if evidence of our crystal ball ever came to light, we'd get in trouble for trading a player we knew had health problems and not disclosing them.
by devo on Mar 1, 2005 3:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Two things that made me laugh out loud...
Yes, I am easily amused.
by McFood on Mar 1, 2005 2:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
BUT did the a's really want G
plus, i think they learned from the giambi neg process. the next year with Miggy they just came out in ST with "we aren't signing this guy at the end of his contract". i respected the a's management for that.
by bigelephant on Mar 1, 2005 2:13 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone think
by kaweahkaweah on Mar 1, 2005 2:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
BB knew something
by guapobob on Mar 1, 2005 5:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
He knew it would be bad for the future of the franchise to tie up so much money in one player.
Still, that 2002 team would have been AWESOME
by Eck on Mar 1, 2005 2:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Which would explain the no-trade clause
by Donner on Mar 1, 2005 3:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Really Good Point
by Eck on Mar 1, 2005 4:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The is an excellent post...
by OaktownPower on Mar 1, 2005 2:37 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
The goal
Given that there is no single move that guarantees a WS win, the goal has to be getting to the playoffs and being in a position to do well.
Sacrificing 5 years (04-09) for one or two (02, 03?) with a better shot is foolish. Plenty can go wrong in those one or two years that messes up your chances, and then you're still stuck with 5 years of overpaying for someone who's drying up. Any team in any playoff series, even the heaviest favorite, has a significant chance of losing.
Far better to spread your chances out over as many years as possible. The '00-'03 playoffs showed us that yes, our team in those years could have beaten any first round opponent, even if it was the top team in baseball. I'll go out on a limb here and say the 06-09 A's will fall into the same category. We could win any of those years, or we could go 0-4 again, but I'd rather have four chances at it than one that may look better.
by Hegenberger Road on Mar 1, 2005 2:51 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
There are no guarantees
by Parklife on Mar 1, 2005 3:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Good Points Dave C and Parklife
I guess it's really the choice between one really good chance and a few "shot-at-it" chances.
But, speaking hypothetically, if we kept Giambi and won the World Seies in 2002 BECAUSE OF Giambi, would signing him for seven years have been the right thing to do?
Or is it better to have hope with a marginal chance of winning for the next decade?
by Eck on Mar 1, 2005 3:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Suppose they won
by kaweahkaweah on Mar 1, 2005 3:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A WS for Giambi..
by Parklife on Mar 1, 2005 3:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
the advantage of hindsight
But it is a tough call. I'm thinking about the 49ers, who put all kinds of money into their 94 team (I think 94) and, yes, they won the Super Bowl. But look at the price they paid (Granted a higher price because of poor management, but still). That said, looking back, it's really cool that they won.
If we were talking about certainties, it's really tough, but I still say no. Since we aren't talking about certainties, I definitely say no.
by Hegenberger Road on Mar 1, 2005 4:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
If we had resigned Giambi
by Zonis on Mar 1, 2005 2:54 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Great Analogy
But do you think D-back fans are happier having won a World Series than they would have been avoiding the pain of last season?
by Eck on Mar 1, 2005 3:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Happiness is...
For me the goal isn't the World Series anymore. The goal should be consistent excellence every season. That way the fans keep coming back, keep hoping, keep rooting.
And every now and then we win a World Series.
by BillybUcko on Mar 2, 2005 9:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
by kaweahkaweah on Mar 2, 2005 9:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Me three
I'm happy after an A's win and unhappy after a loss, whether the game is regular- or post-season. I'll take as many happy days as I can.
by ArakSOT on Mar 2, 2005 10:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sacrifice
My point is that the A's have always played a balancing act between competing now and for the future. You never want to put all your eggs in one basket, so you have to do a little of both. Oakland has done that with great success and I think they will continue to do so for years down the road.
by Melissa on Mar 1, 2005 3:02 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Try to stay competetive for as many seasons as pos
Not only do you avoid horrible rebuilding stretches, you also give yourself a better shot at winning the World Series. Perhaps not in year A ... but if you can get into the postseason 4 years in a row, as the worst team in the playoffs, you have a better shot at winning a WS than a team that gets their once as the best team.
No matter what your priority is, building for the medium term is a much better bet.
Of course, for a team like the Giants, the opposite is true. They have 1-2 more years of Bonds after which they are going to suck, because they have no young talent. It would make all the sense in the world for a team like that, or the Mariners a couple of years ago, to go for it all right now.
by devo on Mar 1, 2005 3:24 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with the general theme
Billy Beane has figured it out, that with the budget contraints of the A's, the best and simple way to get to, and to win the WS, is to get into the playoffs as often as possible. After that it is purely a matter of statistics and luck in the oft quoted "it is crap shoot" line of BB.
So what are the steps to increase your probability of a World Series if you are running the A's?
1. Stay predominately a young (read "inexpensive), good and over-achieving team. [An occasional expensive player can be tolerated, but only occasionally, as in Chavy.]
2. To be young and good, one must maximize the number of highly regarded young prospects, so that statistically you can increase your chances of finding "young and good" players who become "young and excellent" players. No one really knows for sure which good young studs will become great, so you need to have good prospects stockpiles at each level (A, AA and AAA) and at each position.
3. The two ways to maximize the number of highly regarded prospects is to draft wisely (and not trade draft rights), and to trade a veteran as necessary for multi highly regarded young players (as in 6 for 2 in the recent Mulder/Huddy trades).
It is very interesting to me that the A's never stop scouting a player. Before each draft they have there list of want-a-bees, many they are able to draft, but others get away. Those that get away are still scouted and tracked, just waiting for a chance to obtain them later in a trade, or when the other team gives up on them for under-performance, or when their team gives up on them due to injury
by robertmelvin on Mar 1, 2005 3:41 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Trading vets for young players
Not to say that it doesn't hurt to see Huddy in a Braves uniform. But posts like yours help to remind me that we have to look forward.
The A's are a young and good team. That's how I like 'em.
by BillybUcko on Mar 2, 2005 9:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The Hud!!!
I beleive that The Hud will do just as well with the brave as he did with us (oakland) I alsobeleive that it was a good trade for both a wiwn win trade!!
by Richman on Mar 1, 2005 5:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
A couple of takes
- Hudson. C'mon, guys, he's not 40 years old! The Braves are paying for, and IMO will get, <u>future</u> performance. This is not a case of paying for the past performance of an old guy who has already won 250 games. Give me a flippin' break.
- Winning the World Series. Any time you have a chance to win it all, you go for it and you go all in. You don't stick one toe in the water and hope you can get to the edge of the playoffs every year.
by MJB on Mar 1, 2005 9:56 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Crapshoot
by bear88 on Mar 2, 2005 12:22 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
then how do you explain the braves
2 what if they had not won the world series in 1995?
3 did the '95 team have something special that the other braves teams didn't have? more talent? "heart"? "toughness"? or were they just "clutch" whereas the other teams choked?
4 which team has been more successful over the last 15 years, the braves or the marlins?
by xbhaskarx on Mar 2, 2005 2:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
two more questions
which team would you say made better front office decisions?
which team would you rather have been a fan of?
by xbhaskarx on Mar 2, 2005 2:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
and i've got a couple more
what if they had somehow lost to the giants in 89? would you consider the 88-90 a's a great team? a successful team? would you still have considered alderson a good gm? would you still have thought of stew, eck, etc. as "winners"?
by xbhaskarx on Mar 2, 2005 2:26 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
if the a's had lost in 89
0-1 with a 10.80 era against the dodgers and 0-1 with a 6.75 era against the braves.
really the a's dynasty ended in 88 with the home run to gibson, it psychologically destroyed the team.
because none of it is a crapshoot, it's all easily explained by these nebulous, subjective terms like "heart" and "clutch."
by xbhaskarx on Mar 2, 2005 2:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Bear88's post got 5 responses
by devo on Mar 2, 2005 9:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i was up doing other work...
also, obviously i meant 0-1 with a 6.75 era against the reds, not braves...
by xbhaskarx on Mar 2, 2005 9:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
i could go all day...
but he wasn't very "clutch" against the diamondbacks, or last year against the red sox.
surely after allowing an expansion team to win the world series and being part of a team that ruined the curse of the bambino, his clutchness should be revoked...
by xbhaskarx on Mar 2, 2005 9:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
Second, I understand the obvious - that any team can win in a short series. It's all the more difficult to keep winning now that the eventual World Series champ must navigate three playoff series. That's what gets the Yankees in trouble.
I certainly wasn't expecting the A's to win consecutive World Series titles. I wasn't even expecting one World Series title.
But I do think the "crapshoot theory" is a bit of an excuse. The A's had nine chances to win a single playoff series,. And they went 0-9. That's hard to do.
It's awfully convenient, confronted with those facts, to write the postseason off as a total crapshoot.
by bear88 on Mar 2, 2005 3:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Insurance
For instance, if we had signed Hudson to a 4-Year, 47-Million dollar deal (like the Braves), and Huddy goes down w/ a rotator-cuff injury in the 1st year of the contract, and never pitches again, are the Braves covered by their insurance policy?
I think this is something worth discussing, because this would eliminate any discussions w/ regards to Huddy's injury future. If he has a career ending injury, insurance covers your losses, thus, what's the risk of signing Huddy besides the minor injuries (as we've seen the last 4 years, and I could live with), an overworked arm, etc...
Thoughts?
by Colorado Fan on Mar 2, 2005 9:29 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Insurance exists
by devo on Mar 2, 2005 9:52 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
2003 Marlins and -gulp- that other team in '88
2)I agree with the BB strategy, because personally I'd rather see consistent runs of good baseball than a quick run at a WS title followed by years of mediocrity littered with dreams of better days long past.
3) Personal opinions aside, is this approach likely to bring us a WS in the next decade? In a sense, the Braves took this same win-consistently approach with a bigger payroll. They spent big, but never really mortgaged everything on a one-to-four year's run. They came away with one WS in a 14-year run.
By taking the those Braves, one Marlins squad (the other was Steinbrenner-esque) and the Dodgers, were talking a combined 3 little-guy trophies out of the last 16. Now if you're willing to add 2002's edition of the Angels to the list as a team of scrappers, you've got 4 trophies, -- that's 25% of the last 16 -- and that's on the generous side. It looks to me like the 'playoff crapshoot' strategy is at least viable, even if the odds aren't great for the little guy.
Has it gotten easier since the advent of the eight team playoffs? You bet. Three out of the four previously mentioned squads won their titles in the decade since. Still, that doesn't mean the A's are necessarily going to be the underdog of choice even once during a given decade even if those numbers hold up.
To me, quality ball is more exicting than a title followed by rebuilding, mediocre baseball -- unless you're a Cubs fan I guess, that phenomenon almost defies explaination.
I'm also more a fan of well-played baseball than the all-or-nothing mentality. That's why I appreciate the Moneyball strategy.
--Rich
by 89er on Mar 2, 2005 1:51 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Clarification on Cubbies
by 89er on Mar 2, 2005 1:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno,
They lost to a better team in '88, better in a short series because they had Hershiser, won in '89, then lost in '90 to a good team that just played utterly and completely out of their heads. It's unfortunate, but it happens sometimes.
That's the kind of "playoff crapshoot" that happens sometimes; one of the best two or three teams in baseball isn't always going to win the World Series. (Witness the Cards this past October.) The kind Beane seems to be working is to be one of the more fringe playoff team and catch lightning in a bottle.
by jrbh on Mar 2, 2005 2:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
fringe playoff teams
the a's were definitely the better team in 90, which supports the crapshoot theory. sometimes teams get hot and win, play "utterly and completely out of their heads", it doesn't mean they were the better team.
weren't the marlins a fringe playoff teams? or the angels when they were outs away from losing to the giants? what about the red sox when they were down three games last year and it looked like they would be swept by the yankees?
if those teams had something special that made them winners, how come nobody saw that BEFORE they won? it's easy to see how great a team is in retrospect after they win the world series, but what about when they're a few outs away from being swept by the yankees?
by xbhaskarx on Mar 2, 2005 4:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with bear88...
But the A's had chances in four straight years and blew all of them. That's not a crapshoot. That's a record.
by jrbh on Mar 3, 2005 1:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
beep beep, this just in
by devo on Mar 3, 2005 1:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
attendance
while I side with the excitement-every-year instead of the blow-it-all-for-a-ring folks, I'm not sure how much it relates to attendance. Having grown up in a major market (not saying which one, but it wasn't the Cubs or the BoSox) where games sell out no matter how bad our boys were that year, I'm still amazed by the fact that team quality and ticket sales don't correlate in the Colosseum - as evidenced by the still-great 2004 team's endless string of half-empty August/September games in the heart of a pennant race. Do we really know why people stay interested in a team? Any thoughts?
by asadasam on Mar 4, 2005 4:31 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Just look at the Red Sox
by bringbacktejada on Mar 6, 2005 7:29 AM PST reply actions 0 recs






















