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What's the Goal?

[EDITOR'S NOTE] I think this is a fascinating discussion and a great post by Eck. I wanted to call this to everyone's attention because I think it's especially relevant after this past winter for our A's.

See, I believe that the A's goal is field a competitive team in the American League West every season. The A's front office truly believes that the playoffs are a crapshoot, so all they have to do is field a team good enough to win the West...and I think part of the impetus for the moves this past offseason was to make the team good enough to compete in the division for the next 5-10 years. Keeping Mulder and Hudson would've made it possible for the short term, but Billy wants to always be ahead of the game. He prides himself in being ahead of the game. But the hypothetical question that Eck proposes below is a good one. Would you trade one World Series victory for years of stagnation? I don't think I would. - Blez

There are many excellent discussions going on in the "Hudson Signs!!!" diary, and I wanted to draw special attention to one point.

The obvious point is that signing a great player to a long-term contract usually means you are paying for past performance and, at the end, the team gets stuck with a rediculously expensive player who is not very productive.

That's the debate about Hudson. We all loved him. Most of us agree he'll be more productive than Meyer, Cruz and Thomas THIS year. And most of us agree that by the fourth year that's gonna be $13 million the Braves will wish they could use for something else.

xbhaskarx posted a very interesting hypothetical question on that diary:

"what about jason giambi?"

Today it looks like the A's were super smart to let the Yankees pay Giambi so much over so many years. Let's face it, even the A's offer of $91 million over seven years would have killed us in 2004, 2005, 2006 and beyond.

BUT ... I would argue that Jason Giambi on the 2002 Athletics would be our best shot at winning the World Series.

Sure, it's all hypothetical and nothing is guaranteed, but building a team is ALWAYS hypothetical.

Isn't the goal to win a World Series? Or is it to simply field a pretty good team for as many years as you can?

If we could have won in 2002, would it be worth the pain of the team being pretty bad now?

Now this is different from the dabte over Hudson because I don't believe the A's wcould win the World Series in 2005 even if we kept him -- and, obviously, neither did Billy Beane.  

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Two points of view
(1) Flag flies forever

versus

(2) Long-term health of the franchise depends on attendance, attendance depends on winning (and market).  Sacrifice 4 or 5 years for one World Series, and maybe the franchise digs itself into a sinkhole that it can't get out of.

I don't know what's more important, but I think I know which side the owners would err to.

Manny is a NTAC

by salb918 on Mar 1, 2005 1:49 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I would say...
That true, adding Giambi may have helped, but you just don't know if that's enough for the postseason. It's easy to say "yes" and acquire as much talent as possible for one good long run, but if you're sacrificing a good long-term team with several chances to win it all for one better chance, then I question if it's really helping out that much.

For example, say we had Giambi and we entered the second round-- we would have ran into a red-hot Angels team that probably wasn't the best team in the league that year, but on that particular October could have pulverized anyone. (I mean, when Adam Kennedy gets 3 HRs in a game...) I question if the A's, even with Giambi, would have fared any better than the Twins did. Postseasons are tricky. :)

I would say if it was a lock that one would win the World Series with that one player, then yes, it would be worth losing several years of quality (partially because WS winners also get a slight boost in attendance and the like), but my counter-point is that you just don't know and it's impossible to tell, and it's not a lock to win the World Series no matter what lineup you run out, and it's therefore more foolish to go make one run for it rather than a string of successive postseason chances where, eventually, breaks will fall our way.

by Trocmagic on Mar 1, 2005 2:00 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Without Giambi ...
the 2002 team won 103 games. They lost in the ALDS to that weak Minnesota team and (gasp!) the Angels and Giants played in the World Series. One break, here or there, and the A's would have won the 2002 World Series. Yes, the second half in 2001 was amazing, but I would argue that 2002 was their best shot to win.

But, Oaktoon, you missed the point of my question.

The A's did have an option to keep Giambi in 2002; it just meant they would also have to keep him through 2009.

by Eck on Mar 1, 2005 2:01 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Who knows
The Yanks thought that Giambi was the missing piece for their team after losing the 2001 World Series in the last inning, but see what big help Burger Boy has done them, even in 2002 when he was still productive. The bottom line is, the playoffs are too much of a crap shoot for you to say that the addition/retention of just one or two players will make the difference between a first round elimination and WS champs. It could, but it just as easily could not. The Yanks have since been trying to add pieces and they don't seem to be getting any closer to the World Series title, only further.

If the 2002 A's had gotten A-Rod, Sheffield, kept Giambi, I'm sure everybody would say the A's would sweep the playoffs. Yet the Yanks had all three plus other stars like Mussina, Brown, Rivera, Jeter, and they still didn't manage to win it all. They've tacked on an extra 100 million dollars in search of their WS ring, and it still eludes them. That tells me that no matter how good the 2002 A's "could've" been, there's no reason to think they'd do better in the playoffs than they did. If we had been swept, I mean crushed in the 2002 ALDS, then yes, it would've made a difference to keep Giambi. The fact that 2002 was blown because of a couple booted grounders, a hurt pitcher hiding his injury, and a fat fastball down the middle for a certain A.J. Pieceofshitsky, makes me think that there's no reason to think Giambi would've helped either way.

by OaktownTribesman on Mar 1, 2005 2:10 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

When you consider the pitching,
the A's were better than the Yankees in 2002.

Yes, the A's lost to the Twins on some fluke-y stuff, but maybe scoring a few more runs would have over come that.

Of course we'll never now if Giambi would have made the difference in 2002. But let's assume signing him would have meant we win in 2002 ... and then we're very mediocre until his contract ends after 2009, would you do it?

by Eck on Mar 1, 2005 2:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well
If you had a crystal ball and told me the A's would win it in 2002, hell yeah I'd do it and take the trophy. We could then use your crystal ball to forsee Giambi's collapse and trade him for top prospects right before the 2003 season, thus avoiding the mediocre rebuilding phase... :)

by OaktownTribesman on Mar 1, 2005 3:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sounds like a plan to me
The only problem is we'd probably have to trade Giambi to the Yankees ... wouldn't that be worse than seeing him sign there as a free agent?

Also, if evidence of our crystal ball ever came to light, we'd get in trouble for trading a player we knew had health problems and not disclosing them.

devo's gf: "what is it that you write about all day when they don't even play any games?"

by devo on Mar 1, 2005 3:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Two things that made me laugh out loud...
"Burger Boy" and "A.J. Pieceofshitsky".

Yes, I am easily amused.

"I refuse to belong to any club which would accept someone like me as a member." - Groucho Marx

by McFood on Mar 1, 2005 2:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

BUT did the a's really want G
the more i think about that whole situation, i question if the a's were sincere about negoiating with giambi. the a's knew G could get more than the 90 mil they offered. they knew he wanted a no-trade clause. they deliberately offered the opposite of what G was looking for. the a's didn't WANT giambi.

plus, i think they learned from the giambi neg process. the next year with Miggy they just came out in ST with "we aren't signing this guy at the end of his contract". i respected the a's management for that.

"And right now you could care less about me But soon enough you will care, by the time I'm done."- The White Stripes; Ball and Biscuit, Elephant (of course!!!)

by bigelephant on Mar 1, 2005 2:13 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Does anyone think
that Beane et al. knew at the time about Giambi's steroid use?
"The sun don't shine on the same dog's ass all the time." -Catfish Hunter

by kaweahkaweah on Mar 1, 2005 2:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

BB knew something
I'm sure BB knew about the steroids.  He's a former player, still young enough to understand the modern player, and he's no dummy.  But I don't know that he'd have been worried about Giambi's steroid use as long as Giambi produced.  What I do wonder is if BB knew or sensed that Giambi's body was due for a break down, whether it was steroid induced or otherwise.  Giambi did have some leg injuries, and, if I recall correctly,some back problems as well.  Maybe thats why the A's weren't broken up about losing him.  (By the way, the Giambi affair is one of the reasons I'll give BB the benifit of the doubt and wait a couple of years before assessing the Mulder trade.)

by guapobob on Mar 1, 2005 5:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
Billy DIDN'T want to keep Giambi.
He knew it would be bad for the future of the franchise to tie up so much money in one player.

Still, that 2002 team would have been AWESOME

by Eck on Mar 1, 2005 2:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Which would explain the no-trade clause
He probably wanted Giambi for at least 2002.  And, liked the thought of having him for the next few years, if he continued to perform, but there was no way he was going to let a player have that much money then tie his hands with a no trade clause.

by Donner on Mar 1, 2005 3:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Really Good Point
That must be why the no-trade clause was such a deal breaker. Billy's pretty smart.

by Eck on Mar 1, 2005 4:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The is an excellent post...
Amazing details and thought...serious.  Really interesting.

by OaktownPower on Mar 1, 2005 2:37 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

The goal
is to field a playoff-contending team for as many years as you can.

Given that there is no single move that guarantees a WS win, the goal has to be getting to the playoffs and being in a position to do well.

Sacrificing 5 years (04-09) for one or two (02, 03?) with a better shot is foolish. Plenty can go wrong in those one or two years that messes up your chances, and then you're still stuck with 5 years of overpaying for someone who's drying up. Any team in any playoff series, even the heaviest favorite, has a significant chance of losing.

Far better to spread your chances out over as many years as possible. The '00-'03 playoffs showed us that yes, our team in those years could have beaten any first round opponent, even if it was the top team in baseball. I'll go out on a limb here and say the 06-09 A's will fall into the same category. We could win any of those years, or we could go 0-4 again, but I'd rather have four chances at it than one that may look better.

by Hegenberger Road on Mar 1, 2005 2:51 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

There are no guarantees
There are no guarantees. A team could be like ATL or like FLA. The goal is to get into the playoffs. It seems every year the wild card team wins. This just underscores the value of the hottest team at the right time idea. Get there.. then worry about the WS.
"I think what we have today far surpasses a draft" - Maj. Gen. Michael D. Rochelle

by Parklife on Mar 1, 2005 3:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good Points Dave C and Parklife
Especially considering that the worst team in baseball beats the best team 30 percent of the time.

I guess it's really the choice between one really good chance and a few "shot-at-it" chances.

But, speaking hypothetically, if we kept Giambi and won the World Seies in 2002 BECAUSE OF Giambi, would signing him for seven years have been the right thing to do?

Or is it better to have hope with a marginal chance of winning for the next decade?

by Eck on Mar 1, 2005 3:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Suppose they won
The answer is no, I don't think it would have been a good decision.  It wouldn't have been as much fun to be an A's fan afterwards, knowing that we have no chance to win a Title for several years because so much is tied up in one player.  It's been fun every year knowing that the A's have a shot.
"The sun don't shine on the same dog's ass all the time." -Catfish Hunter

by kaweahkaweah on Mar 1, 2005 3:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A WS for Giambi..
If the choice (which is impossible to know) is between Giambi / WS win and several ATL-esk years... I would say, "Do we HAVE to take both Giambi's? Or can we just keep Jason?" Just kidding. I would take the WS. The A's are here to win the championship. If we wanted to come up short, every time, we would be called the San Francisco Giants.
"I think what we have today far surpasses a draft" - Maj. Gen. Michael D. Rochelle

by Parklife on Mar 1, 2005 3:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

the advantage of hindsight
(ie knowing we'd have won in 02) makes it feel better to sign G, and helps avoid a lot of the criticism, but still doesn't make it a good call.

But it is a tough call. I'm thinking about the 49ers, who put all kinds of money into their 94 team (I think 94) and, yes, they won the Super Bowl. But look at the price they paid (Granted a higher price because of poor management, but still). That said, looking back, it's really cool that they won.

If we were talking about certainties, it's really tough, but I still say no. Since we aren't talking about certainties, I definitely say no.

by Hegenberger Road on Mar 1, 2005 4:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If we had resigned Giambi
we'd be the Oakland Dimondbacks right now.
"I still stand firm that Johnny Damon is really Jesus, The Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer..."

by Zonis on Mar 1, 2005 2:54 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Great Analogy
The Diamondbacks are the perfect example of a sell-your-soul-for-one-championship franchise. Even more than the Yankees, because the Yankees can afford to sell their souls every year.

But do you think D-back fans are happier having won a World Series than they would have been avoiding the pain of last season?  

by Eck on Mar 1, 2005 3:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Happiness is...
...winning your division. I decided that last season when we lost to the Angels in our last series of the year.

For me the goal isn't the World Series anymore. The goal should be consistent excellence every season. That way the fans keep coming back, keep hoping, keep rooting.

And every now and then we win a World Series.

by BillybUcko on Mar 2, 2005 9:19 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
I like having something to look forward to every season, instead of starting each season with dread.
"The sun don't shine on the same dog's ass all the time." -Catfish Hunter

by kaweahkaweah on Mar 2, 2005 9:31 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Me three
It's really a no-brainer for me.

I'm happy after an A's win and unhappy after a loss, whether the game is regular- or post-season. I'll take as many happy days as I can.

The triple of Jeremy Brown's imagination was, in reality, a home run.

by ArakSOT on Mar 2, 2005 10:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Sacrifice
In some ways, the A's did sacrifice a bit of the future for 2002, 2003 and even 2004. During those years, they traded Jason Arnold, Jeremy Bonderman, Mark Teahen, John-Ford Griffin etc. for a shot at winning the series in those other years. If the A's had had Arnold and Bonderman waiting in the wings, they may not have felt the need to trade Mulder and Hudson to re-charge for the future. However, I don't think anyone would argue that trading those guys was a bad idea when you consider what they got in return.

My point is that the A's have always played a balancing act between competing now and for the future. You never want to put all your eggs in one basket, so you have to do a little of both. Oakland has done that with great success and I think they will continue to do so for years down the road.

by Melissa on Mar 1, 2005 3:02 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

True
It sure would be nice to have Jeremy Bonderman in the rotation for the next five years.

by Eck on Mar 1, 2005 3:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Try to stay competetive for as many seasons as pos
sible.

Not only do you avoid horrible rebuilding stretches, you also give yourself a better shot at winning the World Series. Perhaps not in year A ... but if you can get into the postseason 4 years in a row, as the worst team in the playoffs, you have a better shot at winning a WS than a team that gets their once as the best team.

No matter what your priority is, building for the medium term is a much better bet.

Of course, for a team like the Giants, the opposite is true. They have 1-2 more years of Bonds after which they are going to suck, because they have no young talent. It would make all the sense in the world for a team like that, or the Mariners a couple of years ago, to go for it all right now.

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Mar 1, 2005 3:24 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I agree with the general theme
of most of the posts in this diary.

Billy Beane has figured it out, that with the budget contraints of the A's, the best and simple way to get to, and to win the WS, is to get into the playoffs as often as possible.  After that it is purely a matter of statistics and luck in the oft quoted "it is crap shoot" line of BB.

So what are the steps to increase your probability of a World Series if you are running the A's?    

1.  Stay predominately a young (read "inexpensive), good and over-achieving team. [An occasional expensive player can be tolerated, but only occasionally, as in Chavy.]

2.  To be young and good, one must maximize the number of highly regarded young prospects, so that statistically you can increase your chances of finding "young and good" players who become "young and excellent" players.  No one really knows for sure which good young studs will become great, so you need to have good prospects stockpiles at each level (A, AA and AAA) and at each position.

3.  The two ways to maximize the number of highly regarded prospects is to draft wisely (and not trade draft rights), and to trade a veteran as necessary for multi highly regarded young players (as in 6 for 2 in the recent Mulder/Huddy trades).

It is very interesting to me that the A's never stop scouting a player.  Before each draft they have there list of want-a-bees, many they are able to draft, but others get away.  Those that get away are still scouted and tracked, just waiting for a chance to obtain them later in a trade, or when the other team gives up on them for under-performance, or when their team gives up on them due to injury

by robertmelvin on Mar 1, 2005 3:41 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Trading vets for young players
I've made peace with the Hudson and Mulder trades because when all is said and done, we've got some young arms who'll be exciting to watch. Heck, we got a bullpen now!

Not to say that it doesn't hurt to see Huddy in a Braves uniform. But posts like yours help to remind me that we have to look forward.

The A's are a young and good team. That's how I like 'em.

by BillybUcko on Mar 2, 2005 9:24 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The Hud!!!
I do not beleive that by the forth year the braves will wish they werent paying Hud 13 mil!
I beleive that The Hud will do just as well with the brave as he did with us (oakland) I alsobeleive that it was a good trade for both a wiwn win trade!!

by Richman on Mar 1, 2005 5:29 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

A couple of takes
  1.  Hudson.  C'mon, guys, he's not 40 years old!  The Braves are paying for, and IMO will get, <u>future</u> performance.  This is not a case of paying for the past performance of an old guy who has already won 250 games.  Give me a flippin' break.
  2.  Winning the World Series.  Any time you have a chance to win it all, you go for it and you go all in.  You don't stick one toe in the water and hope you can get to the edge of the playoffs every year.
MJB

by MJB on Mar 1, 2005 9:56 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Crapshoot
I would be a lot more convinced about the "crapshoot theory" if the A's ever left the playoff table with any chips.

by bear88 on Mar 2, 2005 12:22 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

then how do you explain the braves
1 have they been "successful" over the last 15 years?

2 what if they had not won the world series in 1995?

3 did the '95 team have something special that the other braves teams didn't have?  more talent? "heart"? "toughness"? or were they just "clutch" whereas the other teams choked?

4 which team has been more successful over the last 15 years, the braves or the marlins?

by xbhaskarx on Mar 2, 2005 2:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

two more questions
between the braves and marlins:

which team would you say made better front office decisions?

which team would you rather have been a fan of?

by xbhaskarx on Mar 2, 2005 2:09 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

and i've got a couple more
why did the '89 a's team win the world series when the 88 and 90 teams didn't?  what did they have that the other teams didn't have?  can we say the '89 a's were a much better team than the 88 and 90 a's?  
what if they had somehow lost to the giants in 89?  would you consider the 88-90 a's a great team? a successful team?  would you still have considered alderson a good gm?  would you still have thought of stew, eck, etc. as "winners"?

by xbhaskarx on Mar 2, 2005 2:26 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

if the a's had lost in 89
we could blame it all on eckersley.  sure he was a fine closer in the regular season, but he just didn't have the killer instincts in the playoffs.  he choked it away.  he wasn't clutch.
0-1 with a 10.80 era against the dodgers and 0-1 with a 6.75 era against the braves.  
really the a's dynasty ended in 88 with the home run to gibson, it psychologically destroyed the team.

because none of it is a crapshoot, it's all easily explained by these nebulous, subjective terms like "heart" and "clutch."

by xbhaskarx on Mar 2, 2005 2:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bear88's post got 5 responses
4 of them are from xbhasharx ... he's write 4 times over, though.
devo's gf: "what is it that you write about all day when they don't even play any games?"

by devo on Mar 2, 2005 9:02 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i was up doing other work...
more of you need to be posting at 2am!

also, obviously i meant 0-1 with a 6.75 era against the reds, not braves...

by xbhaskarx on Mar 2, 2005 9:08 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

i could go all day...
how about mariano rivera?  that guy is mr postseason right?  the definition of a clutch performer.

but he wasn't very "clutch" against the diamondbacks, or last year against the red sox.  

surely after allowing an expansion team to win the world series and being part of a team that ruined the curse of the bambino, his clutchness should be revoked...

by xbhaskarx on Mar 2, 2005 9:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
First, the Marlins haven't even been in existence for 15 years, have they?

Second, I understand the obvious - that any team can win in a short series.  It's all the more difficult to keep winning now that the eventual World Series champ must navigate three playoff series.  That's what gets the Yankees in trouble.

I certainly wasn't expecting the A's to win consecutive World Series titles.  I wasn't even expecting one World Series title.

But I do think the "crapshoot theory" is a bit of an excuse.  The A's had nine chances to win a single playoff series,.  And they went 0-9.  That's hard to do.

It's awfully convenient, confronted with those facts, to write the postseason off as a total crapshoot.
 

by bear88 on Mar 2, 2005 3:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Insurance
Does anyone know about Insurance covering expensive, long-term baseball deals?  I've been hearing more and more about it this offseason because of the Giambi/Steriod thing...

For instance, if we had signed Hudson to a 4-Year, 47-Million dollar deal (like the Braves), and Huddy goes down w/ a rotator-cuff injury in the 1st year of the contract, and never pitches again, are the Braves covered by their insurance policy?

I think this is something worth discussing, because this would eliminate any discussions w/ regards to Huddy's injury future.  If he has a career ending injury, insurance covers your losses, thus, what's the risk of signing Huddy besides the minor injuries (as we've seen the last 4 years, and I could live with), an overworked arm, etc...

Thoughts?

Let's Go Oak-Land!

by Colorado Fan on Mar 2, 2005 9:29 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Insurance exists
but it is exhorbitantly expensive and rarely will cover more than the first three years of a contract.
devo's gf: "what is it that you write about all day when they don't even play any games?"

by devo on Mar 2, 2005 9:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

2003 Marlins and -gulp- that other team in '88
1) While I have to qualify this by saaying that the odds in fact favor the teams with more big guns, the most recent WS wins by the Marlins and ... [sigh] the Dodgers are proof that the odds can indeed fall to the provebial little guy.

2)I agree with the BB strategy, because personally I'd rather see consistent runs of good baseball than a quick run at a WS title followed by years of mediocrity littered with dreams of better days long past.

3) Personal opinions aside, is this approach likely to bring us a WS in the next decade? In a sense, the Braves took this same win-consistently approach with a bigger payroll. They spent big, but never really mortgaged everything on a one-to-four year's run. They came away with one WS in a 14-year run.

By taking the those Braves, one Marlins squad (the other was Steinbrenner-esque) and the Dodgers, were talking a combined 3 little-guy trophies out of the last 16. Now if you're willing to add 2002's edition of the Angels to the list as a team of scrappers, you've got 4 trophies, -- that's 25% of the last 16 -- and that's on the generous side. It looks to me like the 'playoff crapshoot' strategy is at least viable, even if the odds aren't great for the little guy.

Has it gotten easier since the advent of the eight team playoffs? You bet. Three out of the four previously mentioned squads won their titles in the decade since. Still, that doesn't mean the A's are necessarily going to be the underdog of choice even once during a given decade even if those numbers hold up.

To me, quality ball is more exicting than a title followed by rebuilding, mediocre baseball -- unless you're a Cubs fan I guess, that phenomenon almost defies explaination.

I'm also more a fan of well-played baseball than the all-or-nothing mentality. That's why I appreciate the Moneyball strategy.

--Rich

"Chavez hits a high, soaring, majestic, MOONRAKING drive to right field! Holy Toledo!" -- Bill King

by 89er on Mar 2, 2005 1:51 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Clarification on Cubbies
The Cubs may not have a title in recent memory, but for some reason the fans as a group are amazingly willing to forgive mediocre baseball while flocking to the park in droves. I admire their loyalty, it's just hard to fathom completely.
"Chavez hits a high, soaring, majestic, MOONRAKING drive to right field! Holy Toledo!" -- Bill King

by 89er on Mar 2, 2005 1:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I dunno,
if the A's were "psychologically destroyed" in '88 by the Gibson HR, how come they won a game in that series, and then stomped the entire American League the next year and won the World Series in four games despite the horrifying distractions of that October?

They lost to a better team in '88, better in a short series because they had Hershiser, won in '89, then lost in '90 to a good team that just played utterly and completely out of their heads. It's unfortunate, but it happens sometimes.

That's the kind of "playoff crapshoot" that happens sometimes; one of the best two or three teams in baseball isn't always going to win the World Series. (Witness the Cards this past October.) The kind Beane seems to be working is to be one of the more fringe playoff team and catch lightning in a bottle.

by jrbh on Mar 2, 2005 2:15 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

fringe playoff teams
i was saying what if they had also lost in 89, i realize that they didn't, but they could have, and how would that era be regarded then.

the a's were definitely the better team in 90, which supports the crapshoot theory.  sometimes teams get hot and win, play "utterly and completely out of their heads", it doesn't mean they were the better team.

weren't the marlins a fringe playoff teams?  or the angels when they were outs away from losing to the giants?  what about the red sox when they were down three games last year and it looked like they would be swept by the yankees?  

if those teams had something special that made them winners, how come nobody saw that BEFORE they won?  it's easy to see how great a team is in retrospect after they win the world series, but what about when they're a few outs away from being swept by the yankees?

by xbhaskarx on Mar 2, 2005 4:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm with bear88...
...I don't buy the "crapshoot" theory as it applies to the team of the last four years, either. The team was lacking something that makes a team good enough to win it all. As noted above, I do buy the crapshoot theory in the sense that shit suddenly happens sometimes and in a short series, like the Reds and the A's in '90, sometimes there's nothing you can do about it.

But the A's had chances in four straight years and blew all of them. That's not a crapshoot. That's a record.

by jrbh on Mar 3, 2005 1:22 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

beep beep, this just in
JRBH believes that BB screwed up in some way.
devo's gf: "what is it that you write about all day when they don't even play any games?"

by devo on Mar 3, 2005 1:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

attendance
I know I'm way late, and everyone's moved on from this topic, but I want to add a question -

while I side with  the excitement-every-year instead of the blow-it-all-for-a-ring folks, I'm not sure how much it relates to attendance.  Having grown up in a major market (not saying which one, but it wasn't the Cubs or the BoSox) where games sell out no matter how bad our boys were that year, I'm still amazed by the fact that team quality and ticket sales don't correlate in the Colosseum - as evidenced by the still-great 2004 team's endless string of half-empty August/September games in the heart of a pennant race.  Do we really know why people stay interested in a team?  Any thoughts?

by asadasam on Mar 4, 2005 4:31 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Just look at the Red Sox
Nobody in Boston ever really cared what happened to the Red Sox as long as they won the Series eventually.  It's championship or bust.  People don't remember the A's teams that won the division or the league championship series.  They remember the World Series winners.  Do I think less of a team like Florida because they are constantly going up and down? No.  They won 2 World Series, that's more than the Giants, that's it.

by bringbacktejada on Mar 6, 2005 7:29 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

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