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Gammons: 'Roids rampant in '90s A's farm system (POLL)

Peter Gammons' February 28th piece on espn.com ...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=2002123

... starts out with McGwire and his androstenedione,  moves on to Brian Downing and Ken Caminiti, then throws in this tidbit:

One mid-'90s Oakland A's farmhand said privately they called their minor league culture "the laboratory."

Star-divide

Regardless of the value of any one of the many pieces of unattributed hearsay in this article, Gammons gives Selig too much benefit of the doubt in this article.

The truth is probably that Selig knew as much as Kevin Towers now admits he knew, and that like Towers, Selig turned a blind eye toward juiced-up sluggers who were passing Maris and Ruth and juicing attendance and TV ratings.

Take the poll.

Poll
Do you believe steroids were rampant in the A's farm system in the mid-1990s?
Duh! Can you say "Jason and Jeremy"?
69 votes
Probably, yeah
65 votes
Maybe, who really knows without proof
57 votes
No, it's just hype -- almost no one uses steroids in baseball
3 votes

194 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 33 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Which begs the question...
...what did Beane know about all this, and when did he know it? And what's his response to it now?

by jrbh on Feb 28, 2005 10:35 PM PST reply actions  

More important than that
The GM with the A's before Beane was Sandy Alderson. He was the GM all through the Canceco and McGwire years and Giambi coming up from the minors. Beane became GM when Alderson left to become Selig's #2 man at the MLB office. He has been there for something like 7 years. If Tony LaRussa knew that Canseco was on the Drug, would his boss Alderson Know? Sandy is a smart guy, I would guess that he has the knowledge for some 15 years. By the way the spokes person for MLB about the FBI knowledge and when they contacted MLB was....anyone....Alderson.

by dougald1 on Mar 1, 2005 7:24 AM PST up reply actions  

Was McGwire traded because of Steroids?
Brings a whole new light to that trade if you are the GM and you think this Steroid thing is going to blow up sooner than it did.

by dougald1 on Mar 1, 2005 7:27 AM PST up reply actions  

Mac wanted to be traded
The A's were not spending $ and he wanted out!  His public persona at the time was as bad as Mr. Bonds when it can to the media.  Now I am not a expert but looking back I wonder if the andro does the Dr. Jeckel/Mr. Hyde personality flips like other substances?  I remember several post game interviews, and print stories where he was a complete asshole.

by jb on Mar 1, 2005 7:36 AM PST up reply actions  

Ehhh
Not quite Bonds like.  McGwire was more reserved, not Dr. Jeckel/Mr. Hyde...

He was traded because he was going to be a free agent and the A's had virtually no chance at re-signing him.  Rebuilding and a large salary didn't make sense.  They got something in return, at the time was thought to be ok even though it ended up being crap.  To think he was traded because of the fear of steroid use makes me think whoever is thinking that wasn't following baseball or the A's in 97' ;).

what are you looking at this for

by WiscoFan on Mar 1, 2005 10:59 AM PST up reply actions  

About Junior Griffey....
....can anyone explain to me why Griffey Jr. gets a complete free pass from Gammons (and others) when it comes to potential steriod use? Here's a guy who hit 56 home runs in back to back seasons in '97 and '98.

Not coincidentally, he has broken down physically art a very early age.

I just don't get why people whisper so much about guys like Sammy and McGwire, but they all give Griffey the benefit of the doubt.

Did I miss something?

TLAAoAitCoO - The Los Angeles Angeles of Anaheim in the County of Orange.

by nodaclu on Feb 28, 2005 10:53 PM PST reply actions  

Agreed
Griffey gets a pass only because the baseball establishment likes him, while conversely the establishment (LaRussa & Co.) will be on ESPN 24/7 if necessary to shout down any accusations that their favorites ever used 'roids or HGH or anything else illicit.
MJB

by MJB on Feb 28, 2005 11:31 PM PST up reply actions  

I guess...
we should suspect A-Rod and Vlad then also?  Go back and, inspired by Canseco pointing out how obvious the physical symptoms of steroid use are (which is an obvious point, anyway), look at a picture of Griffey from 1990 and compare to one from now.  Then, look at his season-by-season stats: HR totals of 45, 40, 49, 56, 56, 48, and 40 from 1993-2000, with an injury-plagued 17 HR season in there as well.  That's some ridiculous statistical symmetry there.  If the man used steroids, then I'm pretty sure he was also using something that completely negated the effects.  Had he stayed healthy and the playing field stayed level Bonds would be a mere afterthought compared to Ken....
"Burger King is my kind of place. But not with all those fatty foods. But I eat only one thing: It is a Veggie Whopper"--Wesley Willis

by Cutthemullet on Mar 1, 2005 12:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, you should
if you're going to suspect anybody, you've got to suspect everybody. 'roids help in a lot of ways besides just getting huge and it is entirely possible to get huge naturally.

Some guys that are huge used 'roids, some guys that are huge didn't. Some guys that aren't huge used 'roids, some guys that aren't huge didn't. Some guys that aren't even power hitters used 'roids ... I think you see where I'm going with this.

People who Pin it all on the guys who are huge, then walk away with a self-righteous smile on their faces are making a stupid, short sighted mistake. They're wrong, period. There's nothing more to it than that.

I don't know who or how many players used. But I'm pretty sure that when/if the list comes out, there are going to be a lot of surprises.

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Mar 1, 2005 12:54 PM PST up reply actions  

excellent point devo:
suspect them all...this business of separating players out simply due their size is foolishness.
"And right now you could care less about me But soon enough you will care, by the time I'm done."- The White Stripes; Ball and Biscuit, Elephant (of course!!!)

by bigelephant on Mar 1, 2005 1:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Griffey's not nearly as big
Whether that's reason enough to let him off as easily as most mainstream media types do, I don't know. But I can generally guess that's why.

by walk off bunt on Feb 28, 2005 10:55 PM PST reply actions  

Griffey
Griffey is and has always been pretty skinny and hasnt had the associated jump in size or power. He was very highly rated out of High School also.
"I still stand firm that Johnny Damon is really Jesus, The Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer..."

by Zonis on Feb 28, 2005 11:10 PM PST reply actions  

Two interesting points in the column
"Players right now believe the percentage of pitchers who juiced -- as opposed to the pitchers, especially Hall of Famers, who cheated -- is higher in the last five years than position players. They began testing last year, and the home-run rate went up."

I still don't know how pitchers would be affected, but assume roids might help a pitcher add a few MPH to his fastball.

"There will still be a huge cloud of suspicion because they are not testing for Human Growth Hormone, and the little secrets that come out of the NFL about masking agents always being two steps ahead of the testing."

This is what's depressing.  This whole thing isn't over, and probably never will be.

by bear88 on Mar 1, 2005 1:05 AM PST reply actions  

Steroids
Steroids aren't just used to bulk up, but rather to decrease recovery time, increase stamina, etc. A pitcher on roids would be able to go deeper into games more often, wouldn't tire as much, and would defy physical decline brought by aging.

by OaktownTribesman on Mar 1, 2005 5:42 AM PST up reply actions  

That...
...rules out Zito.:)
"I refuse to belong to any club which would accept someone like me as a member." - Groucho Marx

by McFood on Mar 1, 2005 8:53 AM PST up reply actions  

Forget about Jr getting a free pass
The NFL and NCAA Football are getting the real free pass here.  Does anyone even remember that there were a few football players in the BALCO business too?
"What I'm trying to do is set our pitching up for five years," said Beane

by Satchmo22 on Mar 1, 2005 1:48 AM PST reply actions  

Different interpretation
I read and reread and reread the line again and I am not sure that Gammons is writing about just the A's system as being the laboratory.  I think it's fair to interpret it that there was a cohort group around a particular minors level that spans organizations that was called the laboratory.

by Rangla on Mar 1, 2005 2:02 AM PST reply actions  

Congressional Investigation Pressure is building..
The death threat to Jose is an another reminder of what goes on in illegal drug trade. We now have some very rich folks who could be exposed for what they are. Barry and the boys probably aren't above threats or hit men....there is a huge amount of money and reputation on the table. Big egos do not like this type of situation. For teams being tied to a drug scandal - well it will make taxpayer support for stadiums a hard sell. Amusingly, in California we have a Governor who used to endorse the use and refuses to be self critical about it - even though he has already had heart issues.
Bonds behavior in the press conference - was that a roid rage? If he had already pissed in the cup he is free to shoot up....but then he is probably using a newer secret desinger roid.
MLB officals - including Alderson who was at ground zero for Canseco's show are in denial...its is baseball's party line...from the top done.
Our Billy Beane was in the locker room with these boys as a player, and a scout after that. He laughed off any knowledge on Ralph and Tom's show last week by saying he was just a wallflower.
However, it is a republican run Congress and they may not want any of the investigation to show that Bushy may have had knowledge of illegal drug use. The democrats are pushing for them.
Amazing what MLB did to Pete Rose for gambling and what they have ignored in the drug field.

This is a trainwreck for MLB and specifically the Oakland A's. If you were Lew would you want to sink your cash into this? How many years before you are brave enough to ask taxpayers to support a "drug lab" team. This gives anti stadium folks a real bullet in the land of political correctness.

Now what really hacks me off is I have a 1989 world series ball signed by Jose, Mark and Rickey - it is pretty tarnished now. Run Rickey run!

by Aparicio11 on Mar 1, 2005 6:42 AM PST reply actions  

To our credit
Billy Beane has purged, even if unwillingly, of any major 'roids suspects from the team. That is, if you still have faith in MLB's minor league testing program. Meanwhile, the team across the Bay still lives and dies with it's roided superstar.

by OaktownTribesman on Mar 1, 2005 7:19 AM PST up reply actions  

i'ii agree it might look bad
for the a's organization during the 1990's but i think its rather disingenuous for ANY sports writer or MLB to pointing their fuckin' finger at the a's and say "they're the problem child".

The full story has not yet been told. there were other players on other teams during the 90's who were using PEDs. once this case snakes its way through the judicial system and congress has a chance to kick MLB around for a while i think you can expect wide sweeping changes yet again to the CBA re: drug testing, criminal charges being laid, MLB may finally lose its anti-trust exemption and a call for the resignation of selig. without a doubt, selig has been the most corruptible MLB commissioner the game has EVER witnessed.  

"And right now you could care less about me But soon enough you will care, by the time I'm done."- The White Stripes; Ball and Biscuit, Elephant (of course!!!)

by bigelephant on Mar 1, 2005 7:02 AM PST reply actions  

Caminiti
There's an article on ESPN Insider in which the GM of the Padres said he knew during Caminiti's MVP season that he was using roids.  He says he has regrets about his silence, although in fairness, there wasn't much he could've done about it (except perhaps confront Caminiti)

http://proxy.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=olney_buster&id=2001599

So no, it isn't fair at all to simply blame the A's, but I don't think that's happening.  The A's happen to have the one player who is discussing it openly.

"The sun don't shine on the same dog's ass all the time." -Catfish Hunter

by kaweahkaweah on Mar 1, 2005 7:21 AM PST up reply actions  

Remember in the early and mid 90s...
...how scouts were complaining that nobody threw hard anymore, about how difficult it was to find anyone who could even hit 95?

Then, in the late '90s, all of a sudden almost every team -- except Oakland, obviously -- has these big, Clemens-esque guys in their organization who can bring serious heat. It's worth thinking about.

Clemens, by the way, is the guy who really interests me in this debate; he's famous for his brutal workout regimen, which us what steroids mostly help with, and he has the temper, etc.  

by jrbh on Mar 1, 2005 9:37 AM PST reply actions  

Player behavior
... ought to be closely examined when thinking of the 'roid issue.

Look at some of the well-known Clemens episodes.  The time he went ape$hit on an umpire and got tossed out of a playoff game against the A's.  The notorious incident where Clemens threw Piazza's splintered bat at Piazza while he was running down to first.

Those incidents are very, shall we say, Romanowski-like.

 

MJB

by MJB on Mar 1, 2005 10:17 AM PST up reply actions  

Not a good way
That's not a good way to pick out the roid users. There are plenty of people who naturally get angry very easily and throw temper tantrums. Just because they're jerks and act childishly doesn't mean they're on roids. It's like pointing a finger at all the dumb and slow people out there and claiming they're on pot.

by OaktownTribesman on Mar 1, 2005 11:04 AM PST up reply actions  

One piece of evidence
It's one piece of evidence to be considered along with everything else.  And there are many other indicators, such as the before/after photos that so many are fond of showing for guys like McGwire and Bonds.

If some guy is a whackjob, but is otherwise a reed-thin accountant who has never played any sport in his life, he's probably not a roid rager.  Of course.

MJB

by MJB on Mar 1, 2005 11:56 AM PST up reply actions  

Jaha incident
don't forget the clemens incident while he was facing John Jaha, the year after he won the come back player of the year award.  Jaha was hurt for most of the season, and we kept waiting for him to get healthy so we could add that right handed power stick to the middle of our line-up.  and it was on of Jaha's first games back, and in his first at bat he hit a stinging line drive to the gap in right center for an rbi double i believe.  the next at-bat clemens throws one at his head, causing Jaha to react by contorting his body out of the way quickly to avoid the fastball.  this reaction be Jaha caused him to hurt his back, and this injury brought an end to Jaha's career.  i was never a fan of clemens before this b/c he was always a big piece of s__ a_hole on the field to begin with - but when he threw at Jaha's head ending Jaha's career b/c he was upset Jaha hit a double off of him in the previous at-bat, well that increased my animosity for him and proved to me that clemens deserves nothing but hatred from me.

by F171615 on Mar 1, 2005 11:26 AM PST up reply actions  

Which Team or Teams Are Innocent?
   The A's have received a lot of dubious publicity with this issue of steroids  and it is producing a "guilt by association" phenomenon. We all acknowlege the abusers, but the league wide investigation is really what is necessary.
   It's a naive approach taken by the media currently as they wait for confessors to come forward, such as the GM of San Diego. The fact is that a "herd mentality" by the media is being created with each new confession.
   This issue of steroid abuse will not die until MLB really makes the hard decision to potentially ban players who test positive. There will always be players looking for an edge to cheat the system. The good news, as I mentioned in my post is that the pressure to stay clean will have a ripple effect down to the collegiate level as testing in the minors has become extensive. Moreover, current players don't want their past achievements in the 90's to be questioned so they will do what players such as Ivan Rodriguez did this past off-season. They will claim that they underwent a vigorous off-season training program and thus have reported to camp 20-30 pounds lighter.
   Lewis Wolff shouldn't be weary of buying the A's because, BB has done a great job with his proactive approach to this team. Don't be surprised if he saw this coming 2-3 years ago. He knew and he also knew that he inherited the A's with all of this baggage and that it was a matter of time before he could transform the A's into his image of what they ought to be.
   Any attempts to take punitive damages against the A's will be for nought because all of MLB is guilty. Any discomfort we as fans feel along the way, won't disappear any time soon but we should feel good that we support one of the better franchises in all of sports and a GM who has rectified the situation, as we see it, in his own way.

by Gerard on Mar 1, 2005 11:24 AM PST reply actions  

It won't die even then
Cycling and track and field now hand out one-year, two-year, or lifetime bans to busted abusers, depending on the exact offense.  It discourages the use but doesn't come anywhere near stopping it.

Mostly it gives athletes an incentive to move to the "cutting edge" substances that the testing agencies cannot yet reliably detect, or to the use of masking agents that aren't detectable.  That is where MLB, NFL, and NBA players will be going from now on.

MJB

by MJB on Mar 1, 2005 12:03 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't think MLB...
will ever be able to completely eradicate it but enough pressure hopefully will be created to get most players to remain clean.
   The question I have is this: How would they ever quantify the effects of steroids with pitchers? Offensive output is easily monitored but pitching...I am just not quite sure.

by Gerard on Mar 1, 2005 12:27 PM PST up reply actions  

canseco's ghostwriter
he didn't write it by himself??  i feel so betrayed!

NEW YORK -- Jose Canseco confirms in the upcoming issue of The New Yorker magazine that Steve Kettmann was the ghost writer for his best-selling book "Juiced: Wild Times, Rampant 'Roids, Smash Hits and How Baseball Got Big."

Kettmann, a former reporter for the San Francisco Chronicle, has written on the steroids scandal in Major League Baseball in the past.

Canseco, whose book debuted at No. 1 on The New York Times non-fiction chart, recently appeared at a book signing in New York.

The March 7 issue of The New Yorker hits newsstands on Monday.

by xbhaskarx on Mar 1, 2005 11:47 AM PST reply actions  

Well
Before someone writes a book he probably should've actually read a book first.
"The sun don't shine on the same dog's ass all the time." -Catfish Hunter

by kaweahkaweah on Mar 1, 2005 12:15 PM PST up reply actions  

One thing that t he Olympics and track...
...finally started doing was keeping all the test samples. Then, when a BALCO-like place that came up with a new steroid finally gets unmasked, they go back and test the samples again. If they find a positive, they strip the guy of the medal, even if it was 8 or 12 years ago.

by jrbh on Mar 1, 2005 2:02 PM PST reply actions  

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