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HUDSON SIGNS!!

[EDITOR'S NOTE] Tim Hudson signed a three-year extension today. I can't give anything away, but I think once you read the Mychael Urban book Aces, you'll understand why the A's resigning him wasn't likely. Even if Beane and company were willing to designate a huge chunk of the payroll to two players, Hudson and Chavez, they would've had to surround them with a roster of unproven players for the next five years and judging from Hudson's comments throughout the book, that wouldn't have worked for Tim. -Blez

Here is a link to the page.

3 Years, $33 million, with possibility of two vesting years based on innings pitched.  Now I have a question, why couldn't we afford that.

Upside is we traded him and have a few potential greats to fill in, or potential flops.

Downside is, if we signed we would have had $22 million invested in two players, and the question is how are they going to divide the rest of the $33 million leftover.

Financially it was a good move, we can't put our all our eggs in one basket.

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We couldn't afford it
Because had we signed him we would have not been able to resign Durazo, Dotel, Byrnes, and others.
"The sun don't shine on the same dog's ass all the time." -Catfish Hunter

by kaweahkaweah on Feb 28, 2005 12:14 PM PST reply actions  

More to it than just dollars
I really believe that one of the reasons Hudson was traded was the fact that Beane perceived him as an injury risk. Moving him for value rather than re-signing him makes sense from that perspective.
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

by scareduck on Feb 28, 2005 12:22 PM PST reply actions  

Exactly
even if he thought Huddy would be healthy in '05, resigning him would be betting that he would stay mostly healthy for at least four and most likely six years down the road.
Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Feb 28, 2005 12:25 PM PST up reply actions  

We could've done it...
...it just would have been bad for the long term health of the team. Keeping a core of players who are declining (k:bb) or an injury risk just because they were once great together and you want to "keep the guys together for just one (or two or three) more seasons" leads to 5 year rebuilding proects. Billy didn't want that. I don't either.

Remember what Billy said about not seeing trades or moves in isolation; they're connected. We could have kept all the players who left (except Dye) or have the guys we got.

Which list would you rather have?

List 1:
Hudson
Rhodes
Redman
Mulder
Miller

List 2:
Kendall
Dotel
Durazo
Haren
Meyer
Thomas
Cruz
Calero
Barton
(maybe add Byrnes and Hatteberg)

Maybe list 1 is a better team next year than list 2. But long term list 2 looks better

by Hegenberger Road on Feb 28, 2005 12:31 PM PST reply actions  

Well Said
I agree completely.

What's nice is that you make the realistic statement you make that "Maybe list 1 is a better team next year than list 2."

Most folks on AN won't even admit that much(which forces me into a devil's advocate position more often than I'd like.)

by Eck on Feb 28, 2005 1:50 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't think anyone disagrees with that statement
That these trades probably did not make us better in 2005. (Though if the rotation really comes together, watch out)

I just believe, as many do, that these trades didn't decimate 2005's team and that we will still contend.

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Feb 28, 2005 3:15 PM PST up reply actions  

A LOT of People
on this site are claiming the trades DID make us better for 2005.

They claim the A's will win more than last year's 91 games in 2005, using rediculous stats like VORP.

You know, Devo, it's led to may of our friendly disagreements.

by Eck on Feb 28, 2005 3:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Better than we were in 2004
when the Big 3 stunk up the joint, not better than we likely would have been in 2005 with a healthy, effective Big 3.
Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Feb 28, 2005 3:36 PM PST up reply actions  

So are you saying
the A's will win more than 91 games this year?

by Eck on Feb 28, 2005 3:39 PM PST up reply actions  

My money is down on
90-93.

If we make all of the same moves in the offseason, except the Yabu signing (I still think the Kendall trade would make sense, since we'd have to spend roughly the same money on Redman+Rhodes+Anonymous Catcher, we're better off spending it on Kendall) I think that team wins 95-98 games. (I'm optimistic about both Huddy and Zito returning to form - Huddy more so - I just don't like Huddy's health picture in the long run)

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Feb 28, 2005 3:53 PM PST up reply actions  

2004 comparison
... exactly. I haven't seen anybody on AN say that the Hudson and Mulder trades, by themselves, made the 2005 team a better team than it would have been without the trades.

My own opinion which I've stated several times is that, barring major injury to key players, the 2005 should be about as good as the 2004 team actually was.

If we could somehow "undo" the Hudson/Mulder trades, then I would predict the 2005 team to be a lot better than the 2004 team was. I'd be predicting 95-100 wins and the division title.

Without the Hudson/Mulder trades my forecast would have been:
Offense: somewhat improved (Kendall, Ginter, Thomas)
Rotation: somewhat improved (Hudson healthy, Mulder not melting down in the 2d half, Redman replaced by Blanton or Yabu).
Bullpen: somewhat improved (Dotel for a full year, addition of Etherton, possibly Yabu, Johnson, ...?)
Overall: whole team significantly improved.

After the trades it becomes:
Offense: somewhat improved (same)
Bullpen: much improved (adding Cruz and Calero in addition to other changes)
Rotation: significantly weaker (Meyer and Haren compared to off years for Hudson and Mulder)
Overall: about the same.

by matthias on Feb 28, 2005 5:59 PM PST up reply actions  

devil's advocate
I think we'll all realize it around May or so. We've been spoiled with the B3 for so long that I've forgotten what it's like to have a weak rotation. Even when the B3 struggled, I'd hope that Mulder (for example) would return to form. That's just different than hoping that Meyer eventually becomes good.

Don't get me wrong, all 5 of our guys could be good this year, I'd love for it to happen. But I think it's more reasonable to expect most of them to struggle for at least part of the season.

The thing that really drove the trades, IIRC, was that list 1 plus Dye wasn't good enough to make the 04 playoffs. That means list 1 probably wouldn't be good enough to make the 05 playoffs. And in 06 list 1 will only look worse. List 2 probably won't make the 05 playoffs either, but they will look better in 06 and 07.

by Hegenberger Road on Feb 28, 2005 3:30 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm with you, Dave
In fact, I've made pretty much the exact same argument many times -- and drawn the ire of the AN loyalists.

by Eck on Feb 28, 2005 3:42 PM PST up reply actions  

i've always argued
that starting pitching is the least plentiful, thus most valuable, resource. Having Hudson-Mulder-Zito-Harden for another season was potentially (assuming good seasons, no injuries)what would have made the A's rise above the big spenders. that said, I understand BB's decision to make good trades, especially since key members of 2004 (ie, Durazo, perhaps Dotel) might not have been signable in 2005 if they had kept Huddy and Mulder.

It's because the A;s will likely have 1-2 rookies in the starting rotation that I am predicting a 2nd place finish for the A's if the Angels don't have major injuries and the rest of the division plays as expected. but you never know, sh*t happens! And as for 2006 and beyond, look out!

by OaklandSi on Mar 1, 2005 1:15 PM PST up reply actions  

I wonder
if we will look at this time next year and wonder if we got hosed (all the rookies dont pan out) or if ATL got hosed (Hudson gets injured) or maybe better yet, the Braves and A's meet in the World Series (and A's win).
"I still stand firm that Johnny Damon is really Jesus, The Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer..."

by Zonis on Feb 28, 2005 12:36 PM PST reply actions  

That last option
would be the sweetest...or close to an A's/Cards series..
Keep the faith!

(and how much better could it get for Tim to go to the Braves..his team growing up..all the pitching history and the rotation he is going into..happy for Tim for that, too. I think BB really cares about those guys and worked to get them into good situations AND get what he wanted for us in return)

by LongTimeFan on Feb 28, 2005 2:36 PM PST up reply actions  

My feeling on the trades combined
A few years from now, when we look back at these trades, I have the feeling that we're going to say Beane could have gotten more for Hudson, but that the A's came out ahead on the Mulder deal. Combined, I think it will basically come out as a wash.

by jmoney on Feb 28, 2005 5:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Still hurting yourself, I see...
...hope the pain killers are still working.
The triple of Jeremy Brown's imagination was, in reality, a home run.

by ArakSOT on Feb 28, 2005 12:42 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm going to
puke.  :-(
"The sun don't shine on the same dog's ass all the time." -Catfish Hunter

by kaweahkaweah on Feb 28, 2005 12:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Nooooo
That just don't look right
sad days

by Furious George on Feb 28, 2005 12:44 PM PST up reply actions  

This
officially sucks big time. Kleenex anyone? :(
I got an idea, an idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about. - Peter (Family Guy)

by oakasfan20 on Feb 28, 2005 12:44 PM PST up reply actions  

ME!
I'm going to break out the photoshop and do some paint by number. Huddy just doesn't look as cute in that uni as he did in green... (swoon)

by Jennifer on Feb 28, 2005 12:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah
I agree....and those shoes...ick. So much better in green. Blue and red aren't doing anything for him. sigh
Slaaam! galang glang gala gala lang gala...

by oakasfan20 on Feb 28, 2005 12:58 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't know...
did...you...see...this...photo...?!?! Eek! ¡Dios mío!

(There was some argument about this photo. Some people thought the shirt was too much, Sharon and I thought it looked great. I assumed he had a suit jacket or something on right before this photo was taken.)

by Jennifer on Feb 28, 2005 1:17 PM PST up reply actions  

ok
I'll correct myself. How about anything with Braves written on it is a no-no. That shirt does look great on him though. Although, I do wish him the best there. At least he'll stay in NL for awhile.
 He looks good in this pic also.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/players/02/22/first_person0228/
Slaaam! galang galang gala gala lang gala...

by oakasfan20 on Feb 28, 2005 1:31 PM PST up reply actions  

I was cruising through...
my SI last week when I first spotted that photo. Killer. I think I actually gasped when I turned the page.

Now this is the part of AN that makes me really smile.  Who needs stats when you can talk about hottness factor? :)

by Jennifer on Feb 28, 2005 1:53 PM PST up reply actions  

hotness factor...
...it is a stat: HF

Using HF, Huddy rates as the 2nd hottest player in MLB. Mulder is at the top. Both are at least 100 times hotter than a replacement player.

by Sharon on Feb 28, 2005 1:58 PM PST up reply actions  

um...
Jennifer, I like you too much to enter a fantasy draft with you. We would definitely fight over some of the guys.

by Sharon on Feb 28, 2005 2:54 PM PST up reply actions  

omg
Mulder....I think I'm gonna go crazy if I keep looking at him. I think i'll eventually check myself in the looney bin b/c i admit, i'm a borderline stalker.... And you're so right, Mulder takes the cake in the HF stat.
Slaaam! galang galang gala gala lang gala...

by oakasfan20 on Feb 28, 2005 2:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Now
The question is, where do Zito and Harden fit in according to HF? :)

by Kyli on Feb 28, 2005 2:32 PM PST up reply actions  

And Chavvy :)
"Tell me who's your weed man, how do you smoke so good?" LOVES IT!!!

by ChavysGrl3 on Feb 28, 2005 6:16 PM PST up reply actions  

Big 3
Well, I never put Harden in that category, but the trades officially split up what I never referred to as "The Big Three," but rather preferred to call:  "Barrage A Trois, the hottest 3-way in Baseball."  It worked on so many levels...

by batgirl on Mar 1, 2005 11:30 AM PST up reply actions  

This might be a very fun blog to start....
There is a blog called Baseball Widow..baseballwidow.blogspot.com..
She understands about HF..and she is a big fan of alltime Fantasy Teams...just gives a whole new meaning to the idea of fantasy baseball, doesn't it.
You gotta love baseball..there are SO MANY ways to enjoy this game...

by LongTimeFan on Feb 28, 2005 3:27 PM PST up reply actions  

This quote:
"When you try to make me look like a jackass, I'm giving you my best stuff" is what it's all about.

Ball players are the best comedians!

by bvank on Mar 1, 2005 12:55 PM PST up reply actions  

I love that him in that shirt.
But what the hell, Jennifer? I already pay a million dollars for therapy every year...you've officially added an extra million with the new pictures of Huddy. Anna Nicole Smith is getting richer b/c of you!

I actually think he looks great in that uni. My heart says that he would look much better in the green and gold, but my eyes say that he still looks damn fine anyway.

by Sharon on Feb 28, 2005 1:42 PM PST up reply actions  

edit
Blez needs to let us edit our comments. B/c I'm the biggest idiot when it comes to typing.

by Sharon on Feb 28, 2005 1:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Oh man.
I told myself I wasn't gonna look. And then I did.

Huddy would look gorgeous in any uniform, but man... I wish that uniform made him look hideous. Or fat. Or something so it would look less like Hudson. But he always will look best in the green and the gold with the white cleats.

I think I'm gonna go cry now. Again.

by Kyli on Feb 28, 2005 1:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Please....
Huddy is the man and was never anythign but fantastic while he was here..there is no reason to forget him or blame him for anything.  I hope he wins 20 games and kicks ass or Atlanta.

by OaktownPower on Feb 28, 2005 12:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, me too
But weren't you even a little peeved that after all those years in Oakland, McGwire becomes a national superstar in his first full year in St. Louis?
The triple of Jeremy Brown's imagination was, in reality, a home run.

by ArakSOT on Feb 28, 2005 12:52 PM PST up reply actions  

You mean....
... after all those years of hitting .201 or being injured all year in Oakland, McGwire becomes a national superstar in his first full year in St. Louis?

Yeah, I'm a little peeved about that too.  :D

 

MJB

by MJB on Feb 28, 2005 4:57 PM PST up reply actions  

the huddy trade:
it was about dollars, not so much about huddy being injury prone.

when a team signs a player for big $ management holds its breath for the duration of the contract unless the player gets injuried then insurance kicks in (see dye).

the way i see it, the a's want to stick to a salary range of around 55-60 mil. they're willing to live with two players receiving 1/3 of that pot-this year it kendall/chavy.

on an objective level, i see the point and its good business. subjective, i think hudson is the type of pitcher a team builds a staff around. apprently, atlanta agrees.

"And right now you could care less about me But soon enough you will care, by the time I'm done."- The White Stripes; Ball and Biscuit, Elephant (of course!!!)

by bigelephant on Feb 28, 2005 1:09 PM PST reply actions  

Good for Huddy
I hope everything works out well for him. I'd like to see him and Mulder battle it out for NL CY. I'd rather they were doing that here for us, but c'est la vie.

by peanut gallery on Feb 28, 2005 2:03 PM PST reply actions  

That makes me actually physically ill...
...we could have afforded Hudson, easily, as it turns out.

Now I'm willing to say it: I've lost confidence in Beane. Either he has been sipping his own version of the kool-aid, i.e., he's off in the ozone, buying the Schott-Hoffman financial scam, or he's too bought in to MLB as a concept to question it or try and change it. Either way, I've lost faith in Beane.

by jrbh on Feb 28, 2005 2:21 PM PST reply actions  

Really? How?
Add Huddy in with that deal and our payroll looks like this:

2005
59.5m (I assmue that we do not sign Yabu and that not making the Kendall trade is essentially 0-sum, since the difference would go to signing a catcher) We could probably deal with that.

2006
51.25m
12 players
The 13 remaining players couldn't average more than ~$750k. Problematic.

2007
35.35m
8 Players (Chavy, Crosby, Kendall, Swish, Huddy, Blanton, Haren, Harden) We'd have $25m to find a starting pitcher, 5 position players, an entire bullpen, and an entire bench.

2008
38.5m
7 Players (Kendall leaves and our payroll actually goes up)

2009
51.5m
7 Players

2010
37m
4 Players (Haren, Harden, and Crosby walk)

To make these projections, I assume that Harden, Haren, Blanton, Crosby, and Swisher are signed to contracts similar to Tejada, Chavy, the Big 3, et al to take them through their arbi years and that Huddy reaches the innings mark to kick in the option years.

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Feb 28, 2005 3:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Hometown deal
Obviously, Huddy is not a Scott Boras client.  Boras would have gotten him a 4-5 Year Deal worth 15-Million+ per year.

The current A's are about 7 Million under budget (61.5 Million Budget, according to Schott) for 2005.  We could have traded Mulder to the Cards, and kept Huddy around for 4 more years with a contract that paid the following:

  1.  6.5 Million
  2.  9 Million
  3.  10 Million
  4.  11 Million
Our rotation would have been:  Huddy, Zito, Harden, Haren, Blanton

And our bullpen would be the same, minus Juan Cruz.

I wish Billy would have done some contract negotiations with Huddy before trading him away.  I think he would have found that the market wasn't going to dictate where Huddy was going to sign.  He wanted to stay in Oakland, and would haven taken 3-Years, 30 Million!

Let's Go Oak-Land!

by Colorado Fan on Feb 28, 2005 3:28 PM PST reply actions  

how many times have
I heard a player say he wants to stay where he is and then leaves where the money is.  If the A's let a player become a free agent, he is gone, simple, and Huddy would not have accepted a $30 million contract.  He took less from Atlanta than he could get because it was his favorite team, he is from there etc.

by china bob on Feb 28, 2005 5:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Then...
who was his favorite team before he was sent off to the Braves?  The A's!  Wouldn't it make sense that he get more money from his new team - The Atlanta Braves (see Turner Network) than he would be getting from the Oakland A's...Huddy's favorite team from 1997-2004.

Two months ago, we were talking about a 4-Year, 50-Million dollars to actually sign Huddy.  3-Year, 33-Million was absolutely do-able.  If BB had tried some salary negotiations before getting rid of Huddy, I think Mulder and Zito would be out the door right now...and the A's we be better off because of it.  

I hope Haren & Meyer turn out to be solid #2 & #3 Starters.  If not, get ready for some serious mediocrity for the next 4-5 years.

Let's Go Oak-Land!

by Colorado Fan on Feb 28, 2005 5:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Maybe we don't get Kendall...
...if we sign Hudson to the deal the Braves just made with him. Excellent. You'd have to be insane not to choose Hudson of those two.

by jrbh on Feb 28, 2005 3:46 PM PST reply actions  

We needed a catcher
Regardless, not making that deal only changes our financial picture minimally - $1-2m at most - and weakens the team considerably.
Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Feb 28, 2005 3:54 PM PST up reply actions  

Exactly...
look at the Texas Rangers with ARod.

by Tyler Bleszinski on Mar 1, 2005 12:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Hudson deal not done yet
according to mlb.com

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_news.jsp?ymd=20050228&content_id=952787&vkey=spt2 005news&fext=.jsp

Notes: Hudson's deal not done yet
Sides trying to finalize contract by Tuesday's deadline

KISSIMMEE, Fla. -- Midway through Monday morning's workout, Braves general manager John Schuerholz took time to chat with Tim Hudson. But the discussion didn't bring the completion of a contract extension.
As the final hours to negotiate Hudson's contract extension have arrived, both the Braves and Hudson seem optimistic a deal will get done. But at the same time, neither side is celebrating anything yet.

With the negotiating deadline arriving on Tuesday, there's at least reason for some concern. But it still seems likely something will be completed before the deadline passes.

"We're pushing through it, but there's nothing done yet," Hudson's agent Paul Cohen said Monday afternoon.

Cohen said he had already spoken with Schuerholz and assistant general manager Frank Wren a couple times on Monday. Another call was scheduled for late afternoon.

If the two parties don't reach an agreement by Tuesday, the negotiations will cease until the offseason, when Hudson is eligible for free agency. The 29-year-old right-hander, who owns a .702 career winning percentage, would be one of the most desired players on the market this offseason.

The Braves will likely have to offer a four-year deal at a rate of approximately $11.5 million per year. An attainable option for a fifth year also seems to be desired.

Neither party is willing to say a deal is "close" to being done or that they're either optimistic or pessimistic.

"'Close' is a such a subjective word," Cohen said. "We're moving ahead on some of the issues, and it's good that we're still talking."

As for Schuerholz, who acquired Hudson from the A's in December with the intention of securing a long-term deal, he's wearing his poker face.

"I've seen too many deals come apart during the final hours because something goes wrong," Schuerholz said.

Hudson has said that he wants to play for the Braves and that he's willing to secure a future in Atlanta instead of chasing the millions awaiting him on the free agent market this offseason. But he still was crossing his fingers when Monday's workout concluded.

"You guys will probably know something before I do," Hudson said.

by gotgreen on Feb 28, 2005 4:06 PM PST reply actions  

If not the A's
I'm glad it's Atlanta.  Seriously.  It seems like he will be happy there.
"The sun don't shine on the same dog's ass all the time." -Catfish Hunter

by kaweahkaweah on Feb 28, 2005 4:08 PM PST reply actions  

I agree
I don't know why I also feel kinda sad at the thought of the Braves signing him. It's not like there would be a chance of Huddy re-signing with the A's if he became a free agent. But like you said, if not the A's, I'm glad he will be with the Braves.

by gotgreen on Feb 28, 2005 4:12 PM PST up reply actions  

i agree, plus
i know i'ii be watching on TBS when his turn comes up to pitch
"And right now you could care less about me But soon enough you will care, by the time I'm done."- The White Stripes; Ball and Biscuit, Elephant (of course!!!)

by bigelephant on Feb 28, 2005 5:21 PM PST up reply actions  

You said it
I'll root for Huddy except when he plays the A's. And even then I'll cheer for him at least once.

The A's go to Atlanta in June . I'm actually thinking of flying out there if it looks like he'll take the mound on one of those days.

by BillybUcko on Mar 1, 2005 9:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Not for a long time :-(
Maybe it will change if Schott buys the team, but I doubt it.

Look at the bright side: we have Chavez through his best years.

"The sun don't shine on the same dog's ass all the time." -Catfish Hunter

by kaweahkaweah on Feb 28, 2005 4:15 PM PST reply actions  

Eeek
I think I'd rather see the A's stick to penny pinching.
"The sun don't shine on the same dog's ass all the time." -Catfish Hunter

by kaweahkaweah on Feb 28, 2005 4:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Chickens and eggs
I think there was a Giambi contract that was supposedly done a few years back, as well. Until the announcement is made, I would't put Hudson in an Atlanta hat through 2008 yet. Sounds like they want that fourth year guaranteed. With Hudson's hip being what it is, I'm not sure I'd give him four more years after this one without mega insurance, but that's just me.

by Melissa on Feb 28, 2005 4:27 PM PST reply actions  

With all due respect, blez...
...I really hate comments like, "If Steinbrenner owned the team...."

The A's are, by virtually every account, profitable. The value of the team has increased incrementally since Schott and Hoffman bought the team. The failure to sign Tejada, and now Hudson and Mulder, isn't about not having access to Yankee-level money. It's about Schott and Hoffman making a business decision to take the money and run and not reinvestit in the team. The Yankee thing is a cheap excuse for failure and selfishness.

by jrbh on Feb 28, 2005 8:30 PM PST reply actions  

OHHHHH
Getting all wound up again. This could get ugly. Tons of posts are on the way with vis. and bold for emphasis.

by Reg on Feb 28, 2005 9:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Other factors involved in Hudson trade
Besides Hudson's health and declining strikeout rates, there were other issues that no doubt forced Billy Beane's hand. First, there was the ultimatum from Hudson's agent that a deal be struck before the season started.

Then there were the outrageous contracts handed out to Russ Ortiz, Jared Wright and other mediocre-to-moderately successful pitchers. When Beane saw the money that being handed over to these guys, he knew there was no way to keep Hudson.

Beane had a choice to keep Hudson for 2005 and get the Yankees' or Red Sox' first round draft pick next year or trade him. The pitching prospect offered by the Braves is exactly what one would hope a high draft pick would turn into -- plus he's nearly major league-ready right away. Add a relief pitcher with some star potential and a useful outfielder and Beane's course became clear.

by Charlie O on Feb 28, 2005 8:59 PM PST reply actions  

contract
like the Santana contract extension, a very good deal relative to the offseason market...
"Burger King is my kind of place. But not with all those fatty foods. But I eat only one thing: It is a Veggie Whopper"--Wesley Willis

by Cutthemullet on Feb 28, 2005 9:04 PM PST reply actions  

I wish.
I hope so. Though I guess it's better than never having any top tier guys at all, and spending our time hoping to have guys like Rhodes shipped outta town to make the season a little less painful.

by Kyli on Feb 28, 2005 9:13 PM PST reply actions  

If Beane guessed that Hudson would be...
...too expensive -- and it certainly wasn't an unreasonable guess in, say, November -- it turns out now that that guess was wrong.

Signing Hudson to the kind of deal it looks like he got in Atlanta and not signing Kendall wouldn't have forced the A's to make any cuts at all, and in fact, given a more reasonable fiscal approach to the team by ownership, it's possible they could have had Kendall and Hudson and Durazo. The Mulder deal by itself would have accomplished what the A's were trying to do, kept the team within it's budget, and made the team an ongoing favorite in the AL West.

Beane blew it.

by jrbh on Feb 28, 2005 10:32 PM PST reply actions  

i disagree
but who can say for sure either way until the end of this season at the very least.  

we'll see how hudson, rhodes, and redman do compared to meyer, thomas, cruz, kendall, dotel, and durazo.  i wouldn't put byrnes on that list because they would have had to keep him either way.

but even then, i don't think many doubt hudson will be great this year and next, but what about in three or four years?  

you say it's possible the a's could have had kendall, hudson, and durazo.  while that may be possible, how much money would then be going just to hudson, kendall, chavez, kotsay, and durazo?  way too much for a team with salary in the 50-60 million range.

by xbhaskarx on Feb 28, 2005 10:53 PM PST up reply actions  

I completely disagree with you
Not just on the money/budgeting front, but Hudson was fed up with Oakland.  He wasn't going to stay.  Read Aces.  You'll see.

by Tyler Bleszinski on Feb 28, 2005 11:53 PM PST up reply actions  

well
some of us have to wait until it actually comes out!

by xbhaskarx on Mar 1, 2005 1:14 AM PST up reply actions  

This is a hopeless discussion right now
jrbh looks at the likely Hudson deal with Atlanta and thinks Beane and the A's blew it.  And I must say: That contract sounds pretty reasonable for a pitcher of his caliber.

But Blez says Hudson was "fed up with Oakland" and wasn't going to stay no matter what.  

I guess we'll have to read the book, or at least the relevant excerpts.  Until then, it's tough to have much of a discussion.  Then again, it's likely that Hudson was "fed up" because he knew all too well that the A's, under Schott anyway, weren't going to spend the money needed to surround him with a team that could win a World Series.

I may change my tune if Huddy goes down with an injury again or blows it in the postseason, but I really hated to lose him.  And I'm less enamored with the players we got for him than the ones we got in the Mulder trade.

by bear88 on Mar 1, 2005 1:23 AM PST up reply actions  

comparing
it's not fair to compare the hudson and mulder trades like that.  mulder won't be a free agent for two years, while hudson would have been in one, so of course the mulder deal should be superior.

by xbhaskarx on Mar 1, 2005 1:48 AM PST up reply actions  

Hudson's new deal is no big deal
Sure, he appears affordable next to some of the monster contracts out there--but the reason he's affordable is that last year ... he wasn't that good!  

And what's more, Mulder wasn't that good either, and neither was Zito.  They were collectively above average, and they were collectively not good enough to take the A's deep into the playoffs, or into the playoffs at all.  Why would 2005 be any different?  

Sure, the A's might have been able to swing $11 mill/year, but would it be worth it?  Not if he put up another 12-win season like last year.  Now if he blossoms into the next Dave Stewart, well then, $11 mill per year is CHEAP for that type of pitcher, and beane did blow it.  

by rubin sierra on Mar 1, 2005 1:11 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm just wondering
if you're ever going to respond to my response to you above where I lay out the actual dollars involved with signing Hudson. Just curious, you know, just putting that out there, since it's clear that you have opinions on the subject.
Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Mar 1, 2005 9:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Big 3 and the Bash Brothers
The Big Three, in the last four years have been consistently close to superstardom without achieving it, sort of like the Bash Brothers back in the late-80's early-90's.  Remember that after McGwire's rookie season (49 bombs) and Canseco's 40/40 year in '88, both Canseco and McGwire never again achieved consistent success with the A's.  Similarly, after showing us gleams of awesome talent, each of the Big Three has been less effective of late.  

Of course, when the Bash Brothers left the A's, Canseco wandered in relative obscurity, while McGwire became a national superstar (as ArakSOT mentions above).  So it'll be interesting to see which of the Big Three, if any, emerges to become the pitcher we all have been waiting for them to be.  Like I said above, if it's Hudson, $33 mill is a bargain.  We should sign Zito long-term right away, just in case it's him.  

by rubin sierra on Mar 1, 2005 1:18 AM PST reply actions  

sign zito just in case it's him?
that doesn't sound too well thought out...

by xbhaskarx on Mar 1, 2005 1:20 AM PST up reply actions  

Hey, I'm Fed Up With Oakland Too
My guess is that a more serious commitment to winning on the part of Beane and the ownership would have cured Hudson's fed-up-ness. If he has other reasons for feeling fed-up, well, yeah, I'll have to read "Aces".

It drives me nuts that the notion that the A's have a $50-$60M budget is accepted as gospel here. The A's could  have spent $70M a year, or more, during the entire Schott/Hoffman ownership, won a couple of World Series titles, and Schott and Hoffman still would have walked away with a profit selling the team. A's management made a choice not to emphasize winning and instead to emphasize massive profit-taking.  

by jrbh on Mar 1, 2005 6:52 AM PST reply actions  

Fed up with Oakland
I thought this would be over 3 months after the trade. Guess it will just go on forever on "what could'nt have been anyway"
Peace up, A-Town Down (A town being Albany California, not Atlanta)

by ohad on Mar 1, 2005 7:23 AM PST up reply actions  

jrbh
Do you have access to the accounting?  It sure sounds like it.

I live in Colorado, and I can see why the A's have a "middle of the road" payroll.  They draw 15,000 fans on Wednesday Nights, charging $1.00 a ticket...'nuff said.

Let's Go Oak-Land!

by Colorado Fan on Mar 1, 2005 8:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Plus...
Between 2000 - 2004, The A's have the 2nd best record in baseball behind the Yankees.  What more do you want?  World Series Titles would be great, but aren't you somewhat happy that we have 4 World Series Titles (in my lifetime), 6 World Series Appearances, and numerous playoff appearances (almost half the time while in Oakland).

I'm to assume that if you owned the A's, you would spend your personal money in an attempt to win a championship, when it's been proven over and over that money doesn't win baseball championships?  

Stupid.

Let's Go Oak-Land!

by Colorado Fan on Mar 1, 2005 8:45 AM PST up reply actions  

Accepting the premise
If you accept the premise that the A's must have the payroll they do, then the Hudson and Mulder trades make sense.  They might even be good deals regardless, depending on the performance of the players involved in the deals going forward.  Beane's arguments are sound, especially about remaining competitive and rebuilding with younger, cheaper talent.

But you must accept the premise.

Here's the problem I have, as a fan:

I don't care if the A's ownership turns a profit every year, as they reportedly have done.  I don't care if they are able to make an investment and turn around and sell it for twice the price less than a decade later, as we know Schott and Hofmann have done.  And I give them credit for providing a winning team for the past few years.

But I'm sorry. I do not buy the "best winning percentage" excuse.  That doesn't make the A's a grand success.  They never made it out of the first round of the playoffs.  This era of A's baseball will be known for several things - Billy Beane, Moneyball, The Big Three, Giambi and Tejada, several AL West championships, and gut-wrenching postseason failure.  

Baseball success isn't just random.  It's no accident that big-spending teams do better, as a general rule.  And nobody, even the staunchest defender of the A's system under Beane, wouldn't want an extra $10 million to spend on player payroll.  Beane would have had an easier time, and the A's would have had a better chance of advancing in the playoffs, if he wasn't having to scrounge around in the office sofa for spare change to acquire rent-a-players down the stretch.  

Remember Beane's "gaffe" after the Red Sox playoff series in 2003, that he'd get out of the first round if he had another $50 million to spend?  I never expected $50 million.  But wouldn't it be nice if the owners had spent an extra $10 million, just so we'd know they gave it their best shot?  I bet Schott, now that he's selling the team, probably regrets it too - because he's never getting another chance.

And I bet that penny pinching is why Hudson is leaving.

by bear88 on Mar 1, 2005 9:20 AM PST up reply actions  

bear88
The "best winning percentage" excuse?  What does that mean?  Is that an excuse or a fact?

Bottom Line:  The best team/highest payroll team doesn't always win the World Series.  If you can say that you picked the RedSox, the Marlins, the Angels, and the Diamondbacks to win the last 4 Championships, then I guess it isn't random...But it seems pretty random to me.

Like you, I want more money for the A's to spend, but it won't happen unless the status quo changes in Oakland (New Baseball Stadium, Moving to San Jose, etc.)  

Could we have kept Huddy...I think so.  But then again, I haven't read Aces.

Let's Go Oak-Land!

by Colorado Fan on Mar 1, 2005 9:52 AM PST up reply actions  

Absurd
This is one of the most ludicris things I've read on here. I don't really want to question your fanness, being from out of state, but you can't just make insane statements like "draw 15,000 fans on Wednesday Nights, charging $1.00 a ticket...'nuff said."

Wednesday tickets cost $2 now. The team AVERAGED 27,179 per game last year. More than Milwaukee with its new stadium, Chicago Sox with their newly renovated stadium, and more than the reigning World Champion Florida Marlins. They only averages 1,800 per game less than the New York Mets, who play in the biggest market in the country.

A middle of the road payroll makes sense for the A's. It doesn't make sense that the middle of the road payrolls are so much lower than the top 3 payrolls in MLB.

by RichardP on Mar 1, 2005 11:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Edit Function
Ok, so maybe my spelling is also ludicrous...

$500 bucks to the resign Zito fund if Blez puts in an edit fuction...

by RichardP on Mar 1, 2005 11:21 AM PST up reply actions  

Besides
Not all tickets are $2: only upper deck seats.  There are still many seats occupied on lower decks where seats are more expensive.
"The sun don't shine on the same dog's ass all the time." -Catfish Hunter

by kaweahkaweah on Mar 1, 2005 11:26 AM PST up reply actions  

all of what you say is true...
...but don't forget, while the attendance average have gone up so has the payroll.

in fact, if you want to start talking about "averages" i'm not sure any other team in  baseball INCREASED their payroll over the past four yrs like the a's.  

"And right now you could care less about me But soon enough you will care, by the time I'm done."- The White Stripes; Ball and Biscuit, Elephant (of course!!!)

by bigelephant on Mar 1, 2005 11:48 AM PST up reply actions  

Excellent point!
"The sun don't shine on the same dog's ass all the time." -Catfish Hunter

by kaweahkaweah on Mar 1, 2005 12:17 PM PST up reply actions  

RichardP...
Sounds like you know it all...

However, how much did the A's receive per 27,179 Tickets sold - I would fathom to guess that they were in the bottom 5 w/ regards to average ticket prices, thus less revenue.

Are you arguing that the A's have more money or something?  I don't understand your arguement, other than you getting upset that I said that the A's average 15,000 fans (tickets sold) every Wednesday Night.  I'm probably pretty close.  And if the Giants, Yankees, and Boston games didn't take place, then the attendance would average under 20,000/game.  I'm a huge A's fan, and don't understand why a team cannot get more fans going to games with a team paralleled to the NY Yankees.

They need to move to San Jose or build a new stadium if we want to keep guys like Hudson signed and happy.

Let's Go Oak-Land!

by Colorado Fan on Mar 1, 2005 1:45 PM PST up reply actions  

nice points oaktoon
every single point you make explains the current a's situation. to expect more from the ownership/the players/the fans is foolishness.

I sometimes wonder if selig wasn't right when he said the a's were "an anomaly"...we expect some much with so little.

"And right now you could care less about me But soon enough you will care, by the time I'm done."- The White Stripes; Ball and Biscuit, Elephant (of course!!!)

by bigelephant on Mar 1, 2005 2:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Good Points...
But the A's have always played 2nd Fiddle to the Giants.  That's one of the reasons I became an A's fan back in 1985 - (When the Giants became super popular because of Will Clark, Robby Thompson, etc.)

Anyways, I hope the A's develop a new ballpark in the next 5-10 years.  It would be great to see the A's compete financially w/ Billy Beane behind the wheel.  And even if the A's do build a new park, they will continue to play 2nd Fiddle to the Giants.., and I love it.

Let's Go Oak-Land!

by Colorado Fan on Mar 2, 2005 10:28 AM PST up reply actions  

Man, do you do a lot of complaining about
how other people spend their money. What do you know about running a baseball team for profit or to win? Stop being such a clown. You have six arguments. I'm gonna list them here so we never have to read them again.
  1. Ownership sucks and they're cheap.
  2. Ron Washington is an incompetent infield instructor and third base coach.
  3. Macha is a wet noodle.
  4. The A's won't win more than 75 games.
  5. Fire Billy Beane because I've lost faith.
  6. Vis

by Reg on Mar 1, 2005 8:51 AM PST up reply actions  

I reject your premise, devo
I don't accept that the A's only have $60M to spend, so I didn't see any point in responding to it.

I'm basing the notion that the A's have had more money to spend on a number of different reports. The heart of it is the sale price Schott and Hoffman getting from Wolff. If Schott and Hoffman had lost more than $10M/year operating the team, they still would have come out about even based on what they're getting from Wolff for the team. And that's before you figure the tax breaks of losing money. And that's assuming that attendance didn't spike because of going deeper into the playoffs or that winning a world championship with Foulke, Tejada and a deeper bench wouldn't bring in substantially more money than the A's actually did.

Of course, Schott and Hoffman have bragged repeatedly that they didn't actually lose money any single year they owned the A's. Ratto reported that they made $17M last year; I personally think that might be a little high, but it doesn't sound like it's particulary off, either. Let's be cautious and guess that they've made $5M/year on the team on average. That means that before taxes, Schott and Hoffman will end up taking out something like $150M from the A's, money not spent on ballplayers, or a new ballpark, or anything else that benefits anyone except Schott and Hoffman.

Yeah, the A's have won a ton of games over the last few years. Kudos to the farm system and the organization for drafting and developing far more talent than any other team in baseball in recent memory.

However, since I don't work for the "Sports Illustrated" swimsuit edition as an editor, I'm not grading them on their ability to find the hottest 24-year-olds. I'm looking at their ability to maximize the assets they have, and when I look at the talent the A's have produced, what I see is a deep organizational failure: a team that's produced the talent the A's have should have won world championships and should have averaged 100 wins a year. While making money.

Schott and Hoffman and Beane were presented with one of the truly great opportunities in baseball history, and they blew it. Flat out blew out. My guess is that never in our lifetime will we say such a confluence of young talent again here in Oakland -- or maybe anywhere else, either.  

by jrbh on Mar 1, 2005 9:28 AM PST reply actions  

Ok, I'll accept your premise for discussion's sake
Go ahead, add $10m to the payroll. You've got $70 to spend now - how are you planning on making it happen in 2008-2010.

2007
35.35m
8 Players (Chavy, Crosby, Kendall, Swish, Huddy, Blanton, Haren, Harden) We'd have $25m to find a starting pitcher, 5 position players, an entire bullpen, and an entire bench.

2008
38.5m
7 Players (Chavy, Crosby, Swish, Huddy, Blanton, Haren, Harden)

2009
51.5m
7 Players

2010
37m
4 Players (Haren, Harden, and Crosby walk)

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Mar 1, 2005 10:01 AM PST up reply actions  

Can you
Do that for Tejada? JRBH thinks we could stay well under the cap for Tejada too. Thing is, by 08 that payroll would be 52 million for 5 players.
Peace up, A-Town Down (A town being Albany California, not Atlanta)

by ohad on Mar 1, 2005 10:04 AM PST up reply actions  

Sure
2005
71m

2006
63m
14 players
(Kotsay, Calero, Ginter in walk years)

2007
47.35m
9 Players (Miggy, Chavy, Crosby, Kendall, Swish, Huddy, Blanton, Haren, Harden)

2008
51.5m
8 Players (Miggy, Chavy, Crosby [playing 2nd?], Swish, Huddy, Blanton, Haren, Harden)

2009
64.5m
8 Players

2010
39m
4 Players (Tejada, Haren, Harden, and Crosby walk)

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Mar 1, 2005 10:13 AM PST up reply actions  

another question
what about jason giambi?  be honest jrbh (and the rest of you), were you arguing that the a's should sign giambi?  
let's put THAT into the 70 million payroll (which is already a bit silly, i thought "beane blew it" but he has no control over payroll that you choose to magically add 10 million to) along with tejada and hudson.  yes that is relevant, because people seem to want so much money tied up in the few big name stars they know and have come to love.  THOSE are the special guys, it'll NEVER happen again, according to jrbh.  the opportunity came and went.  guys like barton, street, garcia, meyer, swisher, etc. might as well retire from baseball now because it's OVER, beane blew it!  

what's the dodgers payroll?  maybe if the a's had more money they'd sign derek lowe to a huge contract, and sign jeff kent as their second baseman...  to me it seems like teams with lots of money (even teams like depo's dodgers) just make expensive mistakes because of that money, whereas beane actually has to be CREATIVE and very selective about large contracts (chavez).

by xbhaskarx on Mar 1, 2005 11:06 AM PST up reply actions  

Excellent Point About Giambi
But I think I might disagree.

No question the A's would be SCREWED if they were still responsible for his contract -- and I mean super screwed, like 100 losses for a couple of years screwed -- but ...

I would argue that the A's best shot at winning the World Series would have been to keep Giambi for 2002.

I like the debate this will bring.
I'm going to start a new diary about it.
Thanks xbhaskarx!
 

by Eck on Mar 1, 2005 1:24 PM PST up reply actions  

No
My question was about giving him the 7-year $91 million contract that Billy offered.

That would have kept him in Oakland for 2002 .. and a lot more years too

by Eck on Mar 1, 2005 1:42 PM PST up reply actions  

IT doesnt matter
If they COULD have lost 10 million a year and sold it and made a profit.

Like Kaweahkaweah said, the A's are not a charity, a business. THey payroll is now at sixty million. Let's say that last year Schott made a profit of 10 million (reasonable)while the payroll was at 55 million. He added 5 million to the payroll. That means his profit was five million less. Think about the last 5 years. You hate schott, but he has double his payroll over time.

How exactly did Beane and Schott blow it? THe fact that the TEAM that was full of talent didn't win? That's not ownerships fault? Is it their fault that thye can't sign all the players? The fact is, the A's are a small market. Oakland is a small market. They will probably never make 100 million a year. If they kept all the talent they had, they'd be around 100 million. I'll give or take and say all our talent made 10 millino bucks ayear (even though they'd make more)

Chavvy: 10 million
Tejada: 10
Mulder: 10
Hudson: 10
Zito: 10
Giambi: 10
Foulke: 6

66 million with seven players. Add in the rest of the TEAM (that is what this is about, the team, right?) and we easily make ninety million, probably more. If Schott used all his proft a year, our payroll would be 75 million absolute MAX. We couldn't even afford a full team!

Peace up, A-Town Down (A town being Albany California, not Atlanta)

by ohad on Mar 1, 2005 10:13 AM PST up reply actions  

Oh, and Echoes of Tejada
The Hudson signing reminds me a lot of the Tejada signing in Baltimore: I was stunned at the contract Miggy signed with the Orioles because it was so completely within the reach of the A's. Either Beane has once again completely misread the market, or he's been given orders to never commit the A's to more than one or two long-term contracts at a time. If the former is the case, Beane should be fired for making a mistake that cost the A's two of the most talented players in the game; if the latter is the case, it just doesn't matter who is GM, or who plays, or much of anything else, either, because the A's will never be top-echelon competitors again.

by jrbh on Mar 1, 2005 9:33 AM PST reply actions  

yeah Dude!
Miggy was so in reach for the next two years (starting from last year)! Wait a sec. What do we do after that when we owe him 16, 15 million a year? Huh? The thing is you are playing this out like Schott makes a profit of 15 million year.
Peace up, A-Town Down (A town being Albany California, not Atlanta)

by ohad on Mar 1, 2005 10:03 AM PST up reply actions  

can't argue
it's impossible to argue this.  it would be hard enough to determine whether or not the hudson and mulder trades were good for the a's for a few years, but what do you do when you can't even agree on a team payroll?  

one side is using the real budget numbers, whereas the other thinks it can just add money to that.  hell, why not sign a-rod and have 100 million in salary?

on top of that, they seem quite convinced that hudson, tejada, etc. will be injury free and highly productive throughout the lengths of their expensive contracts.  they may or may not be, but it's a question of risk.  even if it turns out they were five years from now, that doesn't necessarily mean it would have been a good risk to take.

by xbhaskarx on Mar 1, 2005 11:16 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree
We're not arguing about one thing; we're arguing about many many different things.

Now, if some people would come around to the idea that the budget is what it is...then argue their point...

But I get the feeling that it's less about having a point. I think it's more about releasing frustration. And that would render any argument pointless.

by Sharon on Mar 1, 2005 11:27 AM PST up reply actions  

A charity?
Why is it assumed by many here that Schott should spend more money on improving the team instead of keeping extra profit for himself?  

NEWSFLASH: The A's are a business, not a charity.  As much as we would like to think otherwise, or would like owners who view the team as a charity, we are going to have to get used to the fact that there is a limit to how much money owners will spend on payroll.  

I don't see anything morally wrong with that.

"The sun don't shine on the same dog's ass all the time." -Catfish Hunter

by kaweahkaweah on Mar 1, 2005 9:43 AM PST reply actions  

Poll Taken November 29th, 2004
Here's a poll I took in November before Huddy was traded, and the results - Looks like we were very, very wrong (again)...

Where is the meeting point for Huddy and Billy?

¤ 5 Years - 60 Million (Back-Loaded) - more than Chavvy - 11%

¤ 5 Years - 55 Million (Back-Loaded) - similar to Chavvy - 26%

¤ 5 Years - 50 Million (Back-Loaded) - less than Chavvy - 15%

¤ Huddy will be traded this offseason before Billy and Huddy have disussions - 5%

¤ Huddy will play for the A's in 2005, and be traded at Trade Deadline - 13%

¤ Huddy becomes a Free Agent after 2005 Season, and A's will take Draft Pick(s) - 28%  

Votes: 117

Atlanta Got a Deal in signing Huddy!

Let's Go Oak-Land!

by Colorado Fan on Mar 1, 2005 9:56 AM PST reply actions  

reality
There's a lot we don't know.

Blez seems to think, after reading ACES, that signing Hudson would have been nearly impossible. I have no reason to doubt him. I spent most of last season thinking that Hudson would stay. I spent most of the season prior to that thinking that the A's would keep Mulder, due to his "golden boy" status.

Stupid me. I don't know how many times I told my brother that Zito would be the first one to go.

Everyone should read the interview with JP at battersbox. I think that some people here don't realize that there's more going on behind the scenes than what's written in the local paper.

by Sharon on Mar 1, 2005 10:04 AM PST reply actions  

JRBH went fishing....
...and found a bunch of suckers.
"And right now you could care less about me But soon enough you will care, by the time I'm done."- The White Stripes; Ball and Biscuit, Elephant (of course!!!)

by bigelephant on Mar 1, 2005 10:48 AM PST reply actions  

Details
Braves signed RHP Tim Hudson to a four-year, $47 million contract extension through 2009 with an option for 2010.
Hudson will still make $6.75 million this year. His contract calls for a $10 million signing bonus and salaries of $4 million in 2006, $6 million in 2007 and $13 million each in 2008 and 2009. The option year is worth $12 million and contains a $1 million buyout. Hudson is something of a long-term health risk, but this is a great signing for the Braves. As the top free agent pitcher available, Hudson would have command in excess of $13 million per year next winter

by Steve in Napa on Mar 1, 2005 11:06 AM PST reply actions  

At the deadline, no less
On another note, Huddy signed the deal on the very day he and his agent had set as the deadline for any extension.  Has this been going on forever--or is it a disturbing new trend?--Players with a year left on their contract setting a deadline with their current team for signing an extension ... and it actually working!  It's like they're able to push negotiations up a year early, so that when you've got a guy with two years left on his contract, really you just have one year until the player issues his ultimatum.  Remember, two guys did this for the Warriors at the start of this season.  
I don't like these player-imposed deadlines.  As I heard Billy Beane say in one interview, if the player sets a deadline of March 1 and then gets offered a huge contract on March 2, they'll probably take the contract.  It's bad p.r. for the player too; nobody wants to hear about these players setting deadlines, and it also seems to involve a veiled threat--if the deadline isn't met and no extension is signed, will the player's heart be in it when he plays his final season?  See Sprewell, Latrell.

by rubin sierra on Mar 1, 2005 11:28 AM PST reply actions  

Excecution is the problem, not payroll
Would adding $10 million to the team's payroll allow Terence Long to catch a fly ball? Would it prompt Jeremy Giambi to slide? Would it keep Art Howe from falling in love with Ted Lilly and Billy Koch? Would it make Eric Byrnes and Miguel Tejada remember to touch home plate? Would it keep Eric Chavez from fumbling a rundown play? The A's lost those playoff series because of fundamental breakdowns in execution at critical points. They didn't lose because management failed to put good teams on the field.

Look, I'd like for the A's owners to put up their money to build a new ballpark and increase the payroll but there's no point in blaming payroll for their losses. The owners and Billy Beane put together teams that could have won but they simply failed to execute when the team need it most.  

by Charlie O on Mar 1, 2005 12:40 PM PST reply actions  

The problem with the Rangers...
...was that they committed a third to half their payroll to one player. I'll never understand why the Rangers did that, or ARod and his agent let that happen. (Well, OK, I understand why ARod and his agent let it happen, but I sure don't want to hear any more about how committed to winning he is.)

When I was imagining the A's spending $70M, I was presuming that Giambi, Damon and one of the Big Three -- Mulder or Zito -- would be gone. $70M probably wouldn't be enough for all three of the Big Three (if they're pitching like the Big Three), and Giambi was asking for way too much money at the most easily replaceable position. (Our struggles with Hatteberg notwithstanding.) Damon just isn't good enough to make big-time money.

But $70M is enough to keep Chavy, Tejada, Hudson and Zito, plus Kotsay or Foulke, and fill around them with a combination of players we're bringing up (Crosby at 2B, Swisher in the OF, Johnson at 1B) and veterans. For example, if those guys I mentioned earlier are making $48M between them, that leaves $22M for the remaining 20 players. Nine or ten of those guys are going to be at or near the major league minimum, so that leaves about $18M for 10 guys. That's do-able.

If Hudson gets hurt, yeah, we're screwed. But so what? If Schilling gets hurt, the Red Sox are screwed. If Santana gets hurt, the Twins are screwed. If Halladay gets hurt, well, look what happened to the Jays. So what? I'd rather roll the dice on winning it all.

Finally, it's true that Schott and Hoffman are legally entitled to squeeze every single last fucking dime from the the A's. They bought it, they paid for it, it's theirs. But it's hard for me to see why I'd maintain a rooting interest in something that's strictly and wholly a business.

by jrbh on Mar 1, 2005 1:26 PM PST reply actions  

C'mon
It's very hard for me to bitch about the owners making a buck off the team when for the last several years payroll has increased and the team keeps winning.  What more do you want?

Count your blessings.  We could be Brewers fans, for crying out loud.

"The sun don't shine on the same dog's ass all the time." -Catfish Hunter

by kaweahkaweah on Mar 1, 2005 1:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Okay, lets fill them in ...
2005

Hudson
8m
Zito
5.5m
Chavez
8.5m
Tejada
10m
Foulke
7m

5 players - 39m, 31m left to sign 20 more guys.

2006

Hudson
10m
Zito
8.25m
Chavez
9.5m
Tejada
11m
Foulke
7.25m

5 players - 46m, 24m left to sign 20 more guys.

2007

Hudson
11m
Zito
8m
Chavez
9.5m
Tejada
11m
Foulke
7.5m

5 players - 47m, 23m left to sign 20 more guys.

2008

Hudson
13m
Zito
10m
Chavez
11.5m
Tejada
12m

4 players - 46.5m, 23.5m left to sign 21 more guys.

Honestly, how could this possibly work? After 2005 your last 20 roster spots would have to be filled with guys making ~1m. If you had 10 rookies making the league minimum, that would only get the average up to about 2m. Seriously, you would want that?

Also, the problem wasn't A-Rod, it was Chan Ho Park. If you take the 13m he made last year and give it to 2 quality starters, the Rangers would have won the division.

(I'm assuming Miggy and Huddy sign for a 1m/yr Hometown discount and that Huddy's contract is heavily backloaded and that we resign Zito to a contract similar to Huddy's but that we don't resign Foulke)

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Mar 1, 2005 1:52 PM PST up reply actions  

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