The quest for more offense in 2006
While ranting about the Loaiza signing a fellow ANer and I got into a discussion... OK an energetic discussion... about the state of the A's offense. From Billy Beane on down we all know that the A's need to upgrade offensively while we all expect (or hope) that our young hitters will to continue to improve. The conflict lies in determining just how good of a bat Beane needs to bring in. If the A's can expect significant improvement from the existing roster than Beane doesn't need to make a monumental deal, whether it be a trade or a free agent signing, to find what would hopefully be the finishing piece. A bolder move will be required if Oakland can't count on the current line-up to perform as needed.
It occurred to me that when most folks at AN, and I include myself in this group, discuss what we could expect from certain hitters next year given a full season of at bats or health or with a "year under their belt" we tend to focus solely on what that player did this year vs. what we think they can do next year. This is our great mistake. What we should be asking is can Dan Johnson, for example, do better in 2006 than he AND Hatty did in 2005. Because Crosby and Swisher and Johnson and Payton aren't just going to have to improve upon their 2005 performances to strengthen the A's offense next season, they are going to have to improve to the point were they surpass the combined efforts of several players, otherwise individual achievement might only lead to aggregate stagnation.
I came up with a formula that I believe paints a fairly accurate picture of what the A's did offensively in 2005 and predicts what type of 2006 performances would be needed by individual players to match this past season's group efforts. From that we can determine, or at least intelligently discuss, whether certain players can be expected to achieve or exceed the 2005 levels. Over the past 7 years the A's have averaged 5,581 at bats a season. Now in reality the top 3rd of the batting order tend to get more AB than the bottom 3rd, but the A's tend to have a flexible line-up and the #7 hitter on Tuesday can be batting 2nd on Wednesday. I'm almost positive that there is a way to more accurately determine the number of seasonal AB each batting slot receives in a 5,581 AB season, but for the sake of simplicity (and my sanity) I am going to say that each position in the line-up receives 620 AB a year. 620 AB is our baseline; there will be a standard deviation of 5% to keep from getting bogged down in the minutia of extrapolating the data to exactly 620 AB. I've also modified the overall OBP to not include the HBP and Sac Fly numbers because I don't their inclusion will alter the data enough to make the extra work worthwhile. And again for the sake of simplicity I am only to going evaluate the best offensive option at each position and it's cheating to put players in positions they don't belong (i.e. Dan Johnson at 2nd base!) Remember, we are assuming that only one player per position will receive the full 620 AB.
The only leap of faith that I ask from AN is to allow me to combine the data from certain positions into one heading. Rather than try and determine how many at bats Scutaro had at SS vs. 2nd base I've combined the SS and 2nd base data into Middle Infield Production. I did the same with LF and RF as well as 1B and DH. Well, I didn't call them Middle Infield Production I called them Corner OF Production and 1B/DH Production, respectively. Catcher, CF and 3rd base were all manned by players who's individual AB were within (or very close to) the 5% deviation I've allowed myself. This is our 2006 line-up using players currently on the 25-man roster:
C: Kendall
1B: Johnson
2B: Ellis
3B: Chavez
SS: Crosby
LF: Payton
CF: Kotsay
RF: Swisher
DH: Kielty
Middle Infield Production 2005
Player AB/Hits Runs 2B/HR BB
Ellis 434/137 76 21/13 44 .316 BA/.384 OBP
Scutaro 381/94 48 22/9 36
Ginter 137/22 12 5/3 13
Crosby 333/92 66 25/9 35 .276 BA/.346 OBP
Total 1285/345 202 73/34 128 .268 BA/.335 OBP
Analysis for 2006
The MIP was a near bulls-eye in regards to average AB per season (620 X 2 = 1240) and well within the 5% deviation I gave myself. Once again applying KISS principles, I split the numbers in half and say the A's need two MI who can put up the following line:
.268/.335 101 Runs 37 2B 17 HR 64 BB
This was a relatively easy position to evaluate. Crosby has already shown that he can match those power numbers but I'm not certain that he can maintain the BA and right now the 8 point difference between his BA and the baseline is the main thing keeping his OBP up. His AAA numbers suggest that he'll be able to increase his BB and that will be a key to his continued development. I think it would be premature to expect a break-out year from Crosby in 2006, but his on-base skills should come close to matching the 2005 baseline and his power numbers should exceed it. Ellis has never hit for much power and I think he'll max out at 15 HR/35 2B annual. I know some people think last year was the beginning of a power boost, but Ellis never hit more than 38 2B in the minors and 13 HR is his career high. He hit over .300 in A-ball but he only batted .273 in AAA and is a career .276/.348/.411 hitter in the major leagues. While I don't think he'll hit .316 again I don't find it hard to believe that he could hit in the .285-.290 range, and with his defense that's more than enough for Oakland. His BA and OBP should exceed the 2005 baseline which would compensate for his failure to reach the power figures. I think it would be fair to expect the Crosby/Ellis combo too slightly, but not significantly, improve upon the Middle Infield Production from the 2005 team.
Corner Outfield Production 2005
Player AB/Hits Runs 2B/HR BB
Swisher 462/109 66 32/21 55 .236 BA/.322 OBP
Kielty 377/99 55 20/10 50
Payton 275/74 38 9/13 14 .269 BA/.309 OBP
Byrnes 192/51 30 15/07 14
Total 1306/333 189 76/51 133 .255 BA/.324 OBP
Analysis for 2006
The COP is 5 AB beyond the 5% deviation I gave myself but re-doing the math to 1240 AB drops 9 runs and 2 doubles from the cumulative score and that's too minor to worry about. Splitting the numbers produces:
.255/.324 95 Runs 38 2B 26 HR 67 BB
Those numbers, in particular the OBP, are fairly anemic. The power and BB totals are within Swisher's reach, but the big question with him is his batting average. Using his 2004 AAA numbers as a template (.269/.406 28 2B 29 HR 103 BB) I believe it's likely that Swisher can push his on-base numbers significantly beyond the 2005 baseline but at the cost of slowing (not stopping) his power development. I'm not sure he'll surpass the power numbers from last year. Like Crosby, Swisher should be expected to use 2006 as his consolidation year and not expect a break-out performance.
Payton is a player a lot of people have touted as a key figure for improving the A's offense next year and I have said repeatedly that I don't believe that to be a realistic idea. So I acknowledge my anti-Payton bias and will let the numbers speak for themselves. I'm going to extrapolate his best seasons to 620 AB in an attempt to see what we can hope to expect from him next year.
Jay Payton Career Numbers: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5773/career.
2000 (NYM) 488 AB 63 Runs 23 2B 17 HR 30 BB .291/.331
620 AB 80 Runs 30 2B 22 HR 39 BB
2002 (NYM) 275 AB 33 Runs 6 2B 8 HR 21 BB .284/.336
(COL) 170 AB 36 Runs 14 2B 8 HR 8 BB .335/.376
(TOT) 445 AB 69 Runs 20 2B 16 HR 29 BB .303/.351
620 AB 97 Runs 28 2B 23 HR 41 BB
2003 (COL) 600 AB 93 Runs 32 2B 28 HR 43 BB .302/.354
(No need to project 620 AB)
2005 (BOS) 133 AB 24 Runs 7 2B 5 HR 10 BB .263/.313
(OAK) 275 AB 38 Runs 9 2B 13 HR 14 BB .269/.302
(TOT) 408 AB 62 Runs 16 2B 18 HR 24 BB .267/.306
620 AB 95 Runs 26 2B 23 HR 37 BB
Payton's 2005 Oakland numbers give the impression that he's capable of greater things, but it's important to note that in my research of Jay's career I found that August was almost always his most productive month. Jay Payton is a career .282/.330/.443 hitter and those numbers, particularly his on-base numbers, are significantly inflated by his season and a half in Colorado. Even the most optimistic projection would be hard pressed to see him matching the base numbers across the board. I believe the A's are looking at a slight drop-off in Corner OF Production given the current roster structure.
1B/DH Production
Player AB/Hits Runs 2B/HR BB
Durazo 152/36 15 6/4 14
Hatty 464/119 52 19/7 51
Johnson 375/103 54 21/15 50 .275 BA/.355 OBP
Total 991/258 121 46/26 115 .260 BA/.337 OBP
1240 AB 152 58/33 144
Analysis for 2006
Various A's spent time at DH last year so I had to find the equivalent numbers over a full season's AB. Splitting the numbers produces a pathetic baseline:
.260/.337 76 Runs 29 2B 17 HR 72 BB
That's just ugly. Dan Johnson practically matched those power numbers in 375 AB and given his combined production between Oakland and Sacramento I think it's a fairly safe assumption to believe that he will significantly out-produce the 2005 baseline and he should give the A's an above-average 1st baseman in 2006. DJ is the one player A's management can count on to give them a significant boost in production next year. Although Bobby Kielty's numbers are not factored in the above production totals, his 2005 numbers were a part of the Corner OF Production table. This study is based on the current 25-man roster and it is my belief that Kielty is the better DH option than Marco Scutaro. A quick reminder of Kielty's 2005 season: .263/.350/.395 377 AB 55 Runs 20 2B 10 HR 50 BB.
On the surface it would appear that Kielty would be able to surpass the 2005 baseline but the reality is he would be hard pressed to even match those numbers as a full time DH. The bulk of Bobby Kielty's success comes against LH pitching and he could only expect 20-30 more AB against southpaws as the full-time DH. His .227/.322/.350 line against RH pitching is likely to continue and his overall numbers would plummet. I suppose a Kielty/Scutaro platoon could be expected to match and maybe even surpass the 2005 baseline... but I think my point has been made. The A's would be lucky to see their DH match last year's totals, and that would be bad luck indeed.
The three players we haven't talked about are Eric Chavez, Mark Kotsay and Jason Kendall. These three are going to be in the line-up every day if healthy and their numbers pretty much speak for themselves. A Chavez analysis is probably worth its own diary but I think it safe to say everyone hopes he can bounce back from his worst year since his rookie season. Whether his shoulder will let him is another question. Kendall has got to hit better than he did last year, but a return to his 2003-2004 level of production seems unlikely unless he gets more rest. Kotsay should improve upon his 2005 OBP and push it back into the .350 range but he hit only 2 more doubles in 2004 than he did in 2005 and 35/15 (2B/HR) seems to be a reliable measure.
So what can we expect from the A's 2006 offense? The two players who seem best poised to make a significant improvement in the A's aggregate offensive totals are Eric Chavez and Dan Johnson, and Chavez is entering 2006 with some serious question marks. The internal potential for growth seems lacking and an additional consistent, productive bat is needed if the A's hope to make significant improvement over their 2005 offensive performance. Frank Thomas and Nomar Garciaparra are low-cost(?) options that cannot be counted on to provide that type of production. The A's are going to have to find a full-time bat, preferably one who can hit RH pitching, and that is likely to cost them money.
Money they already spent on Loaiza.
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i stopped reading at the lineup
1B: Johnson: below .200 in september. have pitchers figured him out?
LF: Payton: his obp sucks, he's just not that valuable at LF compared to at CF.
RF: Swisher: he was inconsistent all season. can we really expect him to be both consistent and good this year?
DH: Kielty: he needs to be the #4 OF, not the DH.
without at least a DH, the lineup is very unimpressive.
Please keep reading!
Swisher: I hope for consistent and average, good is a stretch.
dang mang
by AlwaysSweatin on Dec 1, 2005 11:28 PM PST up reply actions
I am also anti-Payton
Two other comments: this sort of reinforces my idea of trading Ellis while right now he is at peak value (coming off the .316 season and other things like his previous lack of power worry me). We could call up Melillo if we really need to. Also, and this is true blasphemy (or as monkeyball would say obloquy; where a monkey learned such vocab I don't know),I think we should trade DJ. He's 26 and not many stars develop when they reach the majors at that age, though granted he might have been called up earlier if on a different team. I know that goes against what you just said that he will give us the biggest improvement but I think he could net us that great bat (him + someone for Dunn, who mashes righties and could play a passable first?) We could then trade for Shealy or Jackson if possible to replace DJ. Also, two more names: Hee Seop Choi mashes righties and will probably come reasonably cheap and Ryan Howard (I know, impossible but what about DJ straight up for him because DJ was voted to the All-Rookie team over him? Plus the Phils have shown they can make mistakes like the recent Gordon signing).
P.S. Before anyone misreads my Howard comments, I'm being hopeful/sarcastic.
Howard
Yeah, he was voted ahead of Howard... but that could be more to have recognized him as he did not win any awards other than that... He would not have beaten Howard out for NL ROY, and Howard's numbers project to around 40 homers a year... Also, Pat Gillick isn't necessarily stupid -- he has a quite impressive resume. I'd say he's a top ten GM though obviously not nearly as good as BB... Still, that Thome-for-Rowand-and-2-Lefty-SP's has gold mine potential
So, in the end, Howard will not be an A.
Knapp trade idea: Zito for Howard ...
The DNC could use a charismatic lefty who can throw bewildering curveballs at the opposition.
And the A's could use a more fiery clubhouse leader: "We're gonna beat Texas! And Seattle! And Anah- Los Angeles! Yeeeaaaaarrrgghhhhhhhh!!!!"
I know
Money...
I've been an A's fan too long
Actions speak louder than words. I think my diary makes a compelling case that if the A's don't add a significant amount of offense they aren't going to win too many more games.
Glad you appreciate the work, even if you disagree with the premise.
Love the new sig by the way
by nothinlikethetown on Dec 2, 2005 12:00 AM PST up reply actions
Giles is off the board.
by secret ASian man on Dec 2, 2005 12:30 AM PST up reply actions
Giles
by pickinmachine on Dec 2, 2005 12:36 AM PST up reply actions
I agree he wanted too but...
I think he absolutely wanted to stay in California. In a perverse way it would have been nice if it had been the A's left at the alter, because then you'd know that Beane had the cash to sign Loaiza and make a big splash for an offensive upgrade.
Agree
The attempt would have proved ability & willingness. We know $ ability is there.
Still...
...BB seems to operate by determinations made months in advance, ...in other words, he works from a very premeditated plan, with backup choices then adjusts as he goes along.
I tend to think 2006 had it's roster roughed out with key targets in August-October, long range targets 3-5 years ago.
I look at our current players and see players that when considered for defensive AND offensive atribute join MLB's best at the key positions. The way BB got to that was the "home grown" and "flawed star" methodology that has served the A's so well.
If you add some $ to that formula for finishing touches you obtain a kick ass team & roster.
IF
I have been a fan since BB was a player, (Sorry BB I was too young to recall you now).
I'm very acquainted with our budgetary restraints over that time with the exception of the pants guys.
We hopefully are on the cusp of coming full cycle and repeating those successes by filling the gap with these Pants makers.
We have ability
Do we have willingness?
...to be continued.
by A s Eh on Dec 2, 2005 7:06 AM PST up reply actions
Close to LA
by jb on Dec 2, 2005 4:48 PM PST up reply actions
You can't fool me!
Premise....
by PosterNutbag44 on Dec 2, 2005 12:36 AM PST up reply actions
Please don't get caught up
The main thing I want to get across is how vital it is for the A's to acquire another bat, a bat that can be counted on for 162 games. Those bats are in great demand and it seems that the cost will only grow higher.
Doing the math...
So, there is about 3.5 million left in the budget most of which I expect goes to raises for current players. Kielty, Ellis, Payton, Kennedy, Witasick, and possibly contracts for Johnson, Swisher, and Street. So, let's leave $1.5 million to hit 58 million.
Now to get a decent bat I think 3-4 million is what the A's would be looking for, a trade could free up 1-2 million more. Which would be 61 million. Then, the trick is to get Zito signed. To make an $11 million per year offer only requires $2.5 million more than 2006, or what we get from the Pirates for Kendall.
Small budget increase for 2007 to say 64 million should cover raises. In 2008, 8 million from Kendall comes off the books, and in 2009 7.5 million from Kotsay comes off.
So, it there are really three options:
- Trade Zito for big bat in the $8 million/year range.
- Sign or trade for middle of the road bat in the $3-5 million range, and get Zito resigned.
With regard to money
by nothinlikethetown on Dec 1, 2005 11:58 PM PST up reply actions
The money info is reassuring
Money Factor #2:
Uncle Sam seems to have 3 shifts printing those funny looking bills. (An orange+blue+some other color $100 bill will be in our futures soon)
"U-Sam" puts more in than he takes out, this is not lost on businessman as astute as the Fischers, Mr. Wolff & BB.
What I'm driving at is today's Loaisa signing seems fair enough but at "year 3" of that contract it will look like outright stealing.
From strictly a business standpoint; this economy would encourage obtaining players like Gomes, Tracy, Kearns, ... who are 1st &/or 2nd year players, who can also have a very desirable "calming" effect on future salary escalations. Locking the better young players up with offers like Harden & Haren can solidify and improve the roster by spending today's dollars with thier higher value. This strategy could pay off for the A's in multiple ways.
The performance rewards of "pre-peak" players and minimum buying needs at inflated prices pays off quickly in the A's near future.
"Amortization" and savings from todays dollars can provide very real economies in building a dynastic roster. If BB is successful accumulating these types of players the A's will benefit in no small way.
I also believe Zito as the rotation anchor, if willing, is worth every penny required for a 4 year contract and a 5th option year. It is very comforting to have the current #1-5 starters and Saarloos doing spot starts and relief.
BB now gets to have all the fun finishing the roster.
by Billy Ball 2005 on Dec 2, 2005 9:34 AM PST up reply actions
Money
by OaktownTribesman on Dec 2, 2005 7:11 AM PST up reply actions
Exactly
Excellent diary
Wow, I had to re-read that one
by JJ on Dec 2, 2005 1:22 AM PST up reply actions
Great analysis
While of course they do need another good hitter to DH, I think you sell the team a little short on what they can and cannot achieve. The A's will never have a top tier offense, its just too expensive and its not the way this team is built. Their pitching is what has always put this team into the postseason and 2006 is no different. A guy like Nomah or Thomas could be just enough though.
No matter what, or who they get, if the A's are meant to be in 2006, a lot of things have to go right. Starting with no significant injuries.
Teams that have the big gun offense and big name FA starters, dont usually win it all. Baseball is too unpredicable.
I dont know about you but everytime I wake up in the morning, Im dying to fire up the computer because a trade might have gone down concerning "the next order of business". I trust in Beane though that he will make the right move.
I can't fault your logic and like the way
I also agree significant production increases could be expected from a healthy DJ and Chavez. We all know Chavez is NOT healthy.
Sidenote on Chavez: Much credit has been given to Crosby's lifting the lineup upon his return. I would argue that Chavez started with 2 terrible months, followed with 2 hot months, ended with 1 bad month. The A's hot streak coincided with Chavez, NOT Crosby although his return added much and helped immensely.
Crosby & Ellis realistically will combine for similar results.
Payton is less than Byrnes.
Kotsay & Swisher combine for similar results.
Kendall is powerless
and we don't have a DH (A DH should hit #3-4-5 with frequent power).
Where I hope you err is quantifying ownership's ability and willingness to spend $5-$10 million more to chase the rings now with this fine roster.
Fact is ownership is an unknown and I'm assuming on the optimistic side.
I believe BB must keep it simple just as we. At the end of the season he knows he needs a "margin" of runs scored over runs given. It should also be a given that opponents will be throwing mostly groundballs and strikes at our players if there is still a power shortage. (Why walk anyone and lose the game over BBs?).
Our young hitters are extremely weak vs strike throwing lowball pitchers (like Saarloos)as was proven by the many shut-outs, 1-run, and 2 run performances we suffered. (Gomes & Frank Thomas are lights out vs groundball pitching!)
Our other major weakness was as you point out, not starters but the backups. Like it or not our A's are brittle and weaker hitting backups got 25% of the A's at bats (It's true, I checked!).
To fix the A's offense requires two players:
DH/3B/OF: This player must be up to playing positions in a pinch. Gomes, Huff, Tracy, Kearns, Glaus...
PH/Bench: Maybe 200 at bats. Eduardo Perez from Tampa Bay vs LHP $1 million, Frank Thomas: I think he'll sign a conditional contract for 2 years and a mutual option @ $2 million per with incentives. No one else will talk 3 possible years with Frank, again, conditional. Frank has same foot-thing that haunted MacGwire so 200-300 at bats is all you get.
-----------------------OR-----------------------
I do not believe Chavez can both play defense and hit with that shoulder in 2006. I prefer having the hitter. Realistically, with a day off on busy weeks, 2 days as DH per week, we may have a decent hitter from April through October.
So who plays 3B when Chavez doesn't? I think Huff can get what he needs from Washington for 2X a week when 3B isn't expected to be as busy, Kearns maybe, Tracy for sure. Washington would have to evaluate Gomes who has played RF and must have an arm, I just don't know how accurate. My backup is Ellis with Scoot at 2B but there we go with a decrease in production at 2B on a regular basis. (See what a Huff or Tracy brings?).
The money:
- If Kearns comes Payton leaves = A's are +$3 mil.
- If Tracy comes Kielty leaves = A's are +$1 mil.
- If Gomes comes nobody leaves = A's are -$1 mil.
- If Frank comes nobody leaves = A's are -$2 mil.
- If Eduardo Perez (DRays) comes nobody leaves = A's are -$1 mil.
- If Huff comes nobody leaves = A's are -$6.75 mil.
- If Glaus comes nobody leaves = A's are -$30.0 mil. over 3 years.
The real trick is what will it take to get a couple of these into A's uniforms?
by A s Eh on Dec 2, 2005 12:45 AM PST reply actions
Great topic
I'm optimistic about the young hitting talent we have, especially DJ, Swish, Crosby and Ellis. Generally young players will keep improving for a while; HOWEVER the so-called sophomore slump often does occur and I think it has more to do with the league figuring out a batter's weaknesses than anything else--thus forcing that hitter to adjust. Regardless, I think those four should at least maintain and hopefully keep improving.
Chavy had one of his poorest years last year; it seems like he's been due for a monster year for about 4 seasons now, but I bet he'll improve from his '05 numbers. I also think Kendall might improve having now been in the league for a year; and I hope Kotsy can stay healthy and hit .285 or .300 or so.
I agree, though, that we need another slugger. Doesn't have to be an MVP candidate, just somebody dangerous who can knock in some runs. I'd feel better about Kielty and Payton if I knew they were backup outfielders--I think they don't hit well enough to play every day. Our biggest hole last year was DH, as Grover documented so well. And that should be the easiest 'position' to fill, you don't even need to play defense! I think we gotta trust that Beane is aware and working to beef us up here. If he can do that and still hold on to Zito, then we're looking mighty for '06 and can leave the Angels in our dust!
by TheBigO on Dec 2, 2005 1:01 AM PST reply actions
Projection
PECOTA
But please feel free to add a PECOTA estimate to the thread if you like. I don't think we're at the point of data oversaturation! :)
I Just Think You're Wrong
I don't see Kendall repeating last year, though he'll certainly never approach his Pittsburgh peak again;
Kielty/Scutaro will not be the DH copmbo. That's laughable. Whoever it is-- and it may be multiple players-- will be a significant upgrade from Hatteberg;
DJ here all year is an upgrade;
Crosby here all year is an upgrade;
Ellis is bound to drop off and the corner OFs might be a bit worse, might be a bit better (don't forget the Ethier factor);
Kotsay should rebound some.
ALL in all there should be fairly sizable improvement assuming a decent bat is added (say 850 OPS) to plug the OF/DH hole.
So where was I wrong oaktoon?
I said Kendall should be better.
I said a Keilty/Scutaro DH combo would be pathetic. You said it would be laughable. Do you really want to quible over put downs?
I said a full year of DJ would be a major upgrade.
I said Crosby would be a (slight) upgrade. Is this where I was wrong? Do you think he's going to have breakout year?
Ellis drop-off... yep.
Corner OF drop-off, check. Barring an incredible ST and an injury to one of the OFers currently on the roster, Ethier is headed to Sac.
Kotsay to rebound slightly.
I said the A's need a consistent, productive bat to improve the offense... I didn't say they need an All-Star.
I covered all this oaktoon. You agree with me on every point, so why am I wrong? Is there a mistake with my data? Because if there isn't then the numbers paint a pretty clear picture... the A's cannot expect significant offensive improvement from their current line-up.
The Conclusion is Your Mistake
Chavez makes a fairly significant improvement at 3B;
So does Crosby at SS;
and very probably Johnson at 1B;
You left us hanguing with the notion that Kielty/Scutaro are the DH and that Beane has spent the money necessary to get a good bat.
I disagree with both points. There will be a significant upgrade at DH;
Kotsay and kendall should both be minor improvements;
Even a slightly reduced Ellis-- playing every day-- will mean a similar outcome at 2B.
Swisher-Payton-Kielty-Ethier- Barton(?)-- should be very similar to 2005.
The point being that there should be significant improvements at 4 positions; smaller improvements at 2 positions; as against very small dropoffs-- if that-- at 2B and corner OF.
I think they'll score 75+ more runs next year. With a pitching staff every bit as good as last year. That makes their run differential +200 or better.
Which means 96-100 wins.
I see
Chavez should make a significant improvement, but that hinges (ugh...pun) entirely on his shoulder. The current thinking is Harden hurt his side last year because he was unconsciously compensating for his left shoulder. What happens if Chavez does the same thing? If Chavez was healthy I'd have no problem anticipating a major rebound, but that's not the reality. That puts a big question mark on Chavez and I'm not going to put on blinders.
If you compare Crosby's 2004 season with what I anticipate he'll do in in 2006 (which is surpass the aggregate baseline from 2005) then you would see a significant upgrade in performance. Crosby has the talent to easily surpass the 2005 numbers but he missed a half year of development and I don't think he's ready to fully utilize his skills. You like to expect the best case scenario when we talk about a yeam's play or a player's development, but I take a more conservative view. I think when you're trying to determine what you have vs. what you need, it's best to be conservative about what you already have in hand. That way you never end up acquiring less than what you need, and if you end up with more than you're sitting pretty. No one will know if Crosby is ready to break out until the games begin in April, but the team has to be built before then.
A Kielty/Scutaro platoon will not happen at DH. But based on the current roster there is no other option! Beane will get another bat to DH, my point was that bat needs to be more reliable then the Nomar Garciaparra's of the world. That kind of option will not work because the A's need someone they can count on to play and perform the whole season and keep Kielty on the bench.
An honest assesment reveals only one player without question ready to make significant improvement and that's Dan Johnson. How is Chavez's shoulder? Where is Crosby on the development curve? And what is the DH's name?
I'd like to input here
Oaktoon: Chavez makes a fairly significant improvement at 3B;
BB2005: Chavez's power is compromised by his plays at 3B creating a drop in power. Chavy was hot 2 months, bad 3 months. Same shoulder is returning.
Oaktoon: So does Crosby at SS;
BB2005: Crosby comes back hot from the DL and cools down to average. Lets see him play an entire season before projecting his "cameo appearances" over 162 games.
Oaktoon: and very probably Johnson at 1B;
BB2005: Agree. DJ has made major adjustments just to get on the roster and I'd expect he will continue adjusting as needed.
Oaktoon: You left us hanguing with the notion that Kielty/Scutaro are the DH and that Beane has spent the money necessary to get a good bat.
BB2005: What if BB brings back Hatte's powerful bat?
Oaktoon: Kotsay and kendall should both be minor improvements
BB2005:
Kotsay was the only one hitting the first 45-60 days, carried the team but ran out of gas too. With his back I'd expect the same results over 162 games.
Kendall is powerless, hit into 30+ doubleplays, and didn't hit that many doubles! He should be hidden at the back of the lineup. #9 spot.
Oaktoon: Swisher-Payton-Kielty-Ethier- Barton(?)-- should be very similar to 2005.
BB2005: BB will not rush Ethier or Barton and if a regular is DL'd forcing a AAA replacement production might be the same but more likely would decrease, esp. if for any length of time.
Oaktoon: The point being that there should be significant improvements at 4 positions; smaller improvements at 2 positions; as against very small dropoffs-- if that-- at 2B and corner OF.
BB2005: Too optimistic
Oaktoon: I think they'll score 75+ more runs next year. With a pitching staff every bit as good as last year. That makes their run differential +200 or better.
BB2005: Assuming who at DH?
Oaktoon: Which means 96-100 wins.
BB2005: We both want this!!!!!!!!!!
by Billy Ball 2005 on Dec 2, 2005 10:51 AM PST up reply actions
I like this diary
I think that we could just analyze this from a runs scored prespective and then your information would have been more in keeping with the KISS principle...and more relevant too!
To be honest
Here's an Alternative Methodology
By contrast the Red Sox and Yankees had OPS of 811 and 805, respectively, and scored 910 and 886 runs.
Translation: for every 1 point gained in OPS, you can expect close to 2 runs scored. Even if it's not that high-- becasue the A's were actually very efficient in runs scored/OPS last year-- figure on at least a 1.5 runs/ point of OPS improvement.
So let's look at our component parts:
Chavez
2005 OPS 795
2002-04 average OPS 875
I think a return to those norms is entirely reasonable-- that's 80 points;
Crosby
2005 OPS 802
(Scutaro OPS 701-- making the SS position about 750 for the entire year)
I think a duplicate performance by Crosby is entirely reasonable-- and he could be even better. That's 50 points of improvement;
DJ
2005 OPS 806
(Hatteberg OPS 677-- assuming 1/3 of the play at 1B by Hatty, that takes the overall number down to about 760)
I think a repeat performance by Johnson (yes, he slumped, but his pre-slump numbers were pretty awesome) is entirely reasonable- that's 45 OPS points of improvement.
DH
Hatteberg was 677; assorted others moved it up a bit, but probably still under 700. I'd be shocked if BB can't get 800 OPS out of this position, and maybe even higher.
That's 100 points of OPS improvement;
C
Kendall was at 666-- his two prior seasons at Pitt were about 800. I don't believe he'll come all the way back, but an improvement of 50 points to 716 seems entirely reasonable;
CF
Kotsay was 716, I believe. But he was over 800 3 of the previous 4 years. A 50 point improvement for him seems entirely reasonable.
That's two-thirds of the A's lineup and probably closer to 70% of their plate appearances, given that only Ellis of the 3 remaining positions will bat anywhere 1-6.
I have a total improvement of 375 OPS points-- assume no improvement from the other 3 positions, and it's still an average increase of 42 points-- probably closer to 45 given the plate appearance proportions.
And that's a conservative estimate.
And Ellis at 280-285 will be as valuable as Ellis-Ginter was last year; Any improvement from Kielty (vs RHP), Swisher or the advent of Ethier could make the corner OF numbers better.
But 45 OPS point improvement means somewhere between 65-90 runs.
And that means at least 6-8 more wins, assuming the pitching is as good-- and it could be better.
Kotsay at 746
But the point remains-- he was over 800 3 of the previous 4 years.
assuming too much health
Add to that the continued effects of Chavvy's shoulder on his ABs, Kendall's refusal to take a day off, and Macha likely over-playing Swisher, Johnson, Crosby, and Ellis June-July (thereby affecting their stamina down the stretch), and we're likely to see upwards of 50-60 suboptimal front-line player-starts.
(On the issue of an additional bat, I agree with both you and grover in that we definitely need one; and with you that we will likely get one.)
true enough...
Ethier will be as effective as DJ was at some point along the way;
Beane will get another bat at the trading deadline;
My fundamental point is that the expected improvement from the players we already have should be a lot more than most on this site-- and grover himself-- believe.
This might be a lost cause
Yes! Chavez could easily bounce back to the .875 OPS range... IF his shoulder lets him.
No! Crosby will not match his .802 OPS. His 2004 OPS was .745 and if he matches (or slightly surpasses - like I predict) he will see a 25-30 point gain in his OPS. That would be a nice progression for him but it wouldn't be a significant gain for the team. The only other realistic option is Crosby breaks-out and posts an OPS higher than .800. I think the first option is more likely but I would love to be wrong.
We are in complete agree ment on DJ (which means he'll get spiked by Crosby!)
Wait
According to the BJ Book (HAH!) the A's had an overall efficiency of 92%.
That's overall though. Hitting as a team, though, the A's -- you're dead on here -- had an efficiency of 104% (741 runs created vs. 772 runs scored)
Actually, according to the handbook, it was PITCHING that was the A's main achilles heal, efficiency wise... The A's were expected to let up around 619 runs but let an extra 39 cross the plate, for 658 Runs Against and a pretty poor efficiency of 94% pitching (which ties for worst in MLB) According to the Bill James Handbook, the A's projected to 94 wins... managing a meager 94% with their 88 wins.
Now, I am NOT saying pitching was the A's weakness -- it was its strength. However, it did come up with the worst efficiency score of all teams... Maybe by signing Loaiza BB thinks he can get that efficiency up to 100% which, with Loaiza, means around 600 runs let in, and according to Grover, around 23 runs scored for our team. Still, I think the A's can at least manage 750 runs in 2006, no?
Add a DH that adds 50 runs and suddenly we have 800 RS, and 600 RA. Or so.
Not too shabby, eh??
The analysis is excellent ...
So a far more important analysis would be done by aggregating the stats of the "lineup" at points in time. That is, what % of the time is the average OBP of the lineup above .330, or something like that. A methodology like this places a premium on versatility of defensive positions, which the A's already have but don't use to their advantage. In this manner, you can mix and match positions so that you'll never have a batting lineup that includes Kielty, Payton, Scutaro, Kendall hitting against a righty pitcher.
As much of a prick as he is, this is also why Jeff Kent (DH, 2B, 1B) would be an incredibly valuable asset on the A's. As valuable as the big sticks are that Ortiz, Thomas and Durazo swing, those players really need to be on a team where everybody hits because they detract from the team's ability to free itself from the position-by-position analysis set forth in the excellent review above.
I agree with you on instinct
So bench players don't stay fresh, not knowing when they will get a shot, and when they do they feel like they have to prove something to keep getting AB's. This is one thing about the Baker alou Giants that I do like, they have always had a semi-regular schedule for getting their bench some starts in the flow of the season.
For the A's last year, it was really sad that Ginter couldn't produce, he was one player whose role on the team was taylor made for effective subbing and flexibility. The right idea for a roster spot, but he just couldn't get it going.
As to the macro level of what level of run production to expect from our current roster, when BTF's ZIPS come out we can look at those. We can also use the standard three year weighted average with slight age adjustment tool, that seems more reliable to me as a true baseline for expected performance.
Eyeballing it though, this team as it is right now, even with that gaping hole at DH and weak OF, still looks like about the 9th-13th best hitting team in MLB. But since many of those better hitting teams are in the AL, it makes us look weaker relative to league than to MLB.
That would be an interesting analysis
she doesn't already?
Our 2 year old likes to wake up
She likes sleep more than foot rubs... although she demands foot rubs too! And back rubs. Head rubs. Time to take hot baths. Etc etc etc.
My almost two year old sleeps pretty well ...
4 kids?
But a question about your original post. Wouldn't an analysis like you suggest have to be ongoing to take into account hot streaks and the like?
4 kids that close in age
2, 3, 4, and 6!!!
by JJ on Dec 2, 2005 1:55 PM PST up reply actions
I just have to say
I think you made an excellent point that we can't just look at how the players might improve next year, we have to see if they will possibly improve to compensate for the loss of Hatteberg. The same thought occured to me a while back.
Honestly, I think they can, but I have always been a "The glass is half full" kind of person.
by BobbyCrosbysGirl on Dec 2, 2005 12:41 PM PST reply actions
Thank you
Well,
by BobbyCrosbysGirl on Dec 2, 2005 12:44 PM PST up reply actions
excellent job Grover
Nobody mentioned the new hitting coach and whether or not he will have a positive effect on the A's hitters and therefore production. As much as I appreciate the A's discipline at the plate I think it has been too ingrained in some players to the detriment of their production. According to the new hitting coach's statements the A's will be much more aggressive at the plate, that should help Swisher and DJ, hopefully Chavez will use a little more discipline. Swinging at first pitches in the dirt is never a good idea. As for spending more money, if that was the answer no team would ever beat the Yankees.
by china bob on Dec 2, 2005 7:19 PM PST reply actions
Yes
I have a question about Payton.... What type FA is he? If he bats solidly this year, can he move to Type A or a similar such position if he is not already???
Perhaps the reason we signed him was to get a little production, but more importantly a high-round draft choice come next year???
Probably not but it just suddenly occurred to me and I wanted thoughts
Needed sufficient time...
Predicting future performance using the past is a tricky thing. Nevertheless, this is what science is all about. It was important though to stay with the "how and why" and not the "what".
Good job, grover.

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