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Around SBN: Full Coverage of 2012 Coke 600

The quest for more offense in 2006

While ranting about the Loaiza signing a fellow ANer and I got into a discussion... OK an energetic discussion... about the state of the A's offense. From Billy Beane on down we all know that the A's need to upgrade offensively while we all expect (or hope) that our young hitters will to continue to improve. The conflict lies in determining just how good of a bat Beane needs to bring in. If the A's can expect significant improvement from the existing roster than Beane doesn't need to make a monumental deal, whether it be a trade or a free agent signing, to find what would hopefully be the finishing piece. A bolder move will be required if Oakland can't count on the current line-up to perform as needed.

It occurred to me that when most folks at AN, and I include myself in this group, discuss what we could expect from certain hitters next year given a full season of at bats or health or with a "year under their belt" we tend to focus solely on what that player did this year vs. what we think they can do next year. This is our great mistake. What we should be asking is can Dan Johnson, for example, do better in 2006 than he AND Hatty did in 2005. Because Crosby and Swisher and Johnson and Payton aren't just going to have to improve upon their 2005 performances to strengthen the A's offense next season, they are going to have to improve to the point were they surpass the combined efforts of several players, otherwise individual achievement might only lead to aggregate stagnation.

I came up with a formula that I believe paints a fairly accurate picture of what the A's did offensively in 2005 and predicts what type of 2006 performances would be needed by individual players to match this past season's  group efforts. From that we can determine, or at least intelligently discuss, whether certain players can be expected to achieve or exceed the 2005 levels. Over the past 7 years the A's have averaged 5,581 at bats a season. Now in reality the top 3rd of the batting order tend to get more AB than the bottom 3rd, but the A's tend to have a flexible line-up and the #7 hitter on Tuesday can be batting 2nd on Wednesday. I'm almost positive that there is a way to more accurately determine the number of seasonal AB each batting slot receives in a 5,581 AB season, but for the sake of simplicity (and my sanity) I am going to say that each position in the line-up receives 620 AB a year. 620 AB is our baseline; there will be a standard deviation of 5% to keep from getting bogged down in the minutia of extrapolating the data to exactly 620 AB. I've also modified the overall OBP to not include the HBP and Sac Fly numbers because I don't their inclusion will alter the data enough to make the extra work worthwhile. And again for the sake of simplicity I am only to going evaluate the best offensive option at each position and it's cheating to put players in positions they don't belong (i.e. Dan Johnson at 2nd base!) Remember, we are assuming that only one player per position will receive the full 620 AB.

The only leap of faith that I ask from AN is to allow me to combine the data from certain positions into one heading. Rather than try and determine how many at bats Scutaro had at SS vs. 2nd base I've combined the SS and 2nd base data into Middle Infield Production. I did the same with LF and RF as well as 1B and DH. Well, I didn't call them Middle Infield Production I called them Corner OF Production and 1B/DH Production, respectively. Catcher, CF and 3rd base were all manned by players who's individual AB were within (or very close to) the 5% deviation I've allowed myself. This is our 2006 line-up using players currently on the 25-man roster:

C: Kendall
1B: Johnson
2B: Ellis
3B: Chavez
SS: Crosby
LF: Payton
CF: Kotsay
RF: Swisher
DH: Kielty

Middle Infield Production 2005

Player      AB/Hits    Runs    2B/HR    BB

Ellis           434/137      76        21/13     44    .316 BA/.384 OBP
Scutaro     381/94        48        22/9       36
Ginter        137/22       12          5/3       13
Crosby      333/92        66        25/9       35    .276 BA/.346 OBP
Total        1285/345    202        73/34    128   .268 BA/.335 OBP

Analysis for 2006

The MIP was a near bulls-eye in regards to average AB per season (620 X 2 = 1240) and well within the 5% deviation I gave myself. Once again applying KISS principles, I split the numbers in half and say the A's need two MI who can put up the following line:

.268/.335  101 Runs  37 2B  17 HR  64 BB

This was a relatively easy position to evaluate. Crosby has already shown that he can match those power numbers but I'm not certain that he can maintain the BA and right now the 8 point difference between his BA and the baseline is the main thing keeping his OBP up. His AAA numbers suggest that he'll be able to increase his BB and that will be a key to his continued development. I think it would be premature to expect a break-out year from Crosby in 2006, but his on-base skills should come close to matching the 2005 baseline and his power numbers should exceed it. Ellis has never hit for much power and I think he'll max out at 15 HR/35 2B annual. I know some people think last year was the beginning of a power boost, but Ellis never hit more than 38 2B in the minors and 13 HR is his career high. He hit over .300 in A-ball but he only batted .273 in AAA and is a career .276/.348/.411 hitter in the major leagues. While I don't think he'll hit .316 again I don't find it hard to believe that he could hit in the .285-.290 range, and with his defense that's more than enough for Oakland. His BA and OBP should exceed the 2005 baseline which would compensate for his failure to reach the power figures. I think it would be fair to expect the Crosby/Ellis combo too slightly, but not significantly, improve upon the Middle Infield Production from the 2005 team.

Corner Outfield Production 2005

Player        AB/Hits      Runs      2B/HR      BB

Swisher       462/109        66          32/21       55     .236 BA/.322 OBP
Kielty          377/99          55          20/10       50
Payton        275/74          38            9/13       14     .269 BA/.309 OBP
Byrnes        192/51          30          15/07       14                                              
Total          1306/333      189          76/51      133    .255 BA/.324 OBP

Analysis for 2006

The COP is 5 AB beyond the 5% deviation I gave myself but re-doing the math to 1240 AB drops 9 runs and 2 doubles from the cumulative score and that's too minor to worry about. Splitting the numbers produces:

.255/.324  95 Runs  38 2B  26 HR  67 BB

Those numbers, in particular the OBP, are fairly anemic. The power and BB totals are within Swisher's reach, but the big question with him is his batting average. Using his 2004 AAA numbers as a template (.269/.406  28 2B  29 HR  103 BB) I believe it's likely that Swisher can push his on-base numbers significantly beyond the 2005 baseline but at the cost of slowing (not stopping) his power development. I'm not sure he'll surpass the power numbers from last year. Like Crosby, Swisher should be expected to use 2006 as his consolidation year and not expect a break-out performance.

Payton is a player a lot of people have touted as a key figure for improving the A's offense next year and I have said repeatedly that I don't believe that to be a realistic idea. So I acknowledge my anti-Payton bias and will let the numbers speak for themselves. I'm going to extrapolate his best seasons to 620 AB in an attempt to see what we can hope to expect from him next year.

Jay Payton Career Numbers: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5773/career.

2000 (NYM)             488 AB   63 Runs   23 2B   17 HR   30 BB  .291/.331
                             620 AB    80 Runs   30 2B   22 HR   39 BB

2002 (NYM)             275 AB   33 Runs     6 2B     8 HR   21 BB   .284/.336
         (COL)            170 AB   36 Runs   14 2B     8 HR     8 BB   .335/.376
         (TOT)            445 AB   69 Runs    20 2B   16 HR   29 BB   .303/.351
                             620 AB   97 Runs    28 2B   23 HR   41 BB

2003 (COL)             600 AB   93 Runs   32 2B   28 HR   43 BB   .302/.354
                                      (No need to project 620 AB)

2005 (BOS)             133 AB   24 Runs     7 2B     5 HR   10 BB   .263/.313
         (OAK)            275 AB   38 Runs     9 2B   13 HR   14 BB   .269/.302
         (TOT)             408 AB   62 Runs   16 2B   18 HR   24 BB   .267/.306
                              620 AB   95 Runs   26 2B   23 HR   37 BB

Payton's 2005 Oakland numbers give the impression that he's capable of greater things, but it's important to note that in my research of Jay's career I found that August was almost always his most productive month. Jay Payton is a career .282/.330/.443 hitter and those numbers, particularly his on-base numbers, are significantly inflated by his season and a half in Colorado. Even the most optimistic projection would be hard pressed to see him matching the base numbers across the board. I believe the A's are looking at a slight drop-off in Corner OF Production given the current roster structure.

1B/DH Production

Player        AB/Hits     Runs    2B/HR     BB

Durazo         152/36         15         6/4         14
Hatty            464/119       52       19/7          51
Johnson        375/103       54       21/15        50    .275 BA/.355 OBP
Total            991/258      121       46/26      115    .260 BA/.337 OBP
                  1240 AB       152       58/33      144

Analysis for 2006

Various A's spent time at DH last year so I had to find the equivalent numbers over a full season's AB. Splitting the numbers produces a pathetic baseline:

.260/.337  76 Runs  29 2B  17 HR  72 BB

That's just ugly. Dan Johnson practically matched those power numbers in 375 AB and given his combined production between Oakland and Sacramento I think it's a fairly safe assumption to believe that he will significantly out-produce the 2005 baseline and he should give the A's an above-average 1st baseman in 2006. DJ is the one player A's management can count on to give them a significant boost in production next year. Although Bobby Kielty's numbers are not factored in the above production totals, his 2005 numbers were a part of the Corner OF Production table. This study is based on the current 25-man roster and it is my belief that Kielty is the better DH option than Marco Scutaro. A quick reminder of Kielty's 2005 season: .263/.350/.395  377 AB  55 Runs  20 2B  10 HR  50 BB.

On the surface it would appear that Kielty would be able to surpass the 2005 baseline but the reality is he would be hard pressed to even match those numbers as a full time DH. The bulk of Bobby Kielty's success comes against LH pitching and he could only expect 20-30 more AB against southpaws as the full-time DH. His .227/.322/.350 line against RH pitching is likely to continue and his overall numbers would plummet. I suppose a Kielty/Scutaro platoon could be expected to match and maybe even surpass the 2005 baseline... but I think my point has been made. The A's would be lucky to see their DH match last year's totals, and that would be bad luck indeed.

The three players we haven't talked about are Eric Chavez, Mark Kotsay and Jason Kendall. These three are going to be in the line-up every day if healthy and their numbers pretty much speak for themselves. A Chavez analysis is probably worth its own diary but I think it safe to say everyone hopes he can bounce back from his worst year since his rookie season. Whether his shoulder will let him is another question. Kendall has got to hit better than he did last year, but a return to his 2003-2004 level of production seems unlikely unless he gets more rest. Kotsay should improve upon his 2005 OBP and push it back into the .350 range but he hit only 2 more doubles in 2004 than he did in 2005 and 35/15 (2B/HR) seems to be a reliable measure.

So what can we expect from the A's 2006 offense? The two players who seem best poised to make a significant improvement in the A's aggregate offensive totals are Eric Chavez and Dan Johnson, and Chavez is entering 2006 with some serious question marks. The internal potential for growth seems lacking and an additional consistent, productive bat is needed if the A's hope to make significant improvement over their 2005 offensive performance. Frank Thomas and Nomar Garciaparra are low-cost(?) options that cannot be counted on to provide that type of production. The A's are going to have to find a full-time bat, preferably one who can hit RH pitching, and that is likely to cost them money.

Money they already spent on Loaiza.

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i stopped reading at the lineup
to post this: it probably scares me more than opposing teams.

1B: Johnson: below .200 in september.  have pitchers figured him out?
LF: Payton: his obp sucks, he's just not that valuable at LF compared to at CF.
RF: Swisher: he was inconsistent all season.  can we really expect him to be both consistent and good this year?
DH: Kielty: he needs to be the #4 OF, not the DH.  

without at least a DH, the lineup is very unimpressive.

A's v Giants "is kind of like the difference between going to see the Ramones and going to see the Bee Gees. A's fans will go see the Ramones." -BB 07/27/05

by xbhaskarx on Dec 1, 2005 11:04 PM PST reply actions  

Please keep reading!
Johnson: I attribute his Sep. slump to fatigue more than anything else.

Swisher: I hope for consistent and average, good is a stretch.

I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 1, 2005 11:22 PM PST up reply actions  

dang mang
someone should pay you for posts that long
What's the point of attaching a number to everything you do? If your numbers go up, you're having more fun.

by AlwaysSweatin on Dec 1, 2005 11:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Eh
Sleep's over-rated.
I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 1, 2005 11:56 PM PST up reply actions  

I am also anti-Payton
and think he will be dealt to the loser of the Damon sweepstakes. He is 34 (?) and at 4.5 mil (?) a little expensive.  But he is a good defender and if a team hopes for his '05 Oakland offensive numbers stretched over a full year, as we ourselves are hoping, a team with money and a need in CF (i.e. the loser(s) of the Damon sweepstakes) might bite and give us a reasonable package.  Or we could send him to AZ in a deal for young hittting.

Two other comments: this sort of reinforces my idea of trading Ellis while right now he is at peak value (coming off the .316 season and other things like his previous lack of power worry me).  We could call up Melillo if we really need to.  Also, and this is true blasphemy (or as monkeyball would say obloquy; where a monkey learned such vocab I don't know),I think we should trade DJ.  He's 26 and not many stars develop when they reach the majors at that age, though granted he might have been called up earlier if on a different team.  I know that goes against what you just said that he will give us the biggest improvement but I think he could net us that great bat (him + someone for Dunn, who mashes righties and could play a passable first?)  We could then trade for Shealy or Jackson if possible to replace DJ.  Also, two more names: Hee Seop Choi mashes righties and will probably come reasonably cheap and Ryan Howard (I know, impossible but what about DJ straight up for him because DJ was voted to the All-Rookie team over him? Plus the Phils have shown they can make mistakes like the recent Gordon signing).  

P.S. Before anyone misreads my Howard comments, I'm being hopeful/sarcastic.

"We live by the Golden Rule. Those who have the gold make the rules." - Buzzie Bavasi

by vignette17 on Dec 1, 2005 11:23 PM PST reply actions  

Howard
will not be an Athletic

Yeah, he was voted ahead of Howard... but that could be more to have recognized him as he did not win any awards other than that... He would not have beaten Howard out for NL ROY, and Howard's numbers project to around 40 homers a year... Also, Pat Gillick isn't necessarily stupid -- he has a quite impressive resume. I'd say he's a top ten GM though obviously not nearly as good as BB... Still, that Thome-for-Rowand-and-2-Lefty-SP's has gold mine potential

So, in the end, Howard will not be an A.

by Alon on Dec 3, 2005 1:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Knapp trade idea: Zito for Howard ...
... Howard Dean, that is.

The DNC could use a charismatic lefty who can throw bewildering curveballs at the opposition.

And the A's could use a more fiery clubhouse leader: "We're gonna beat Texas! And Seattle! And Anah- Los Angeles! Yeeeaaaaarrrgghhhhhhhh!!!!"

@('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 3, 2005 1:44 PM PST up reply actions  

I know
but what if BB asks really nicely? Or used a jedi mind trick on Gillick?
"We live by the Golden Rule. Those who have the gold make the rules." - Buzzie Bavasi

by vignette17 on Dec 3, 2005 5:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Money...
Grover, you're work is beautiful, don't get me wrong. However, I think you are entirely too hung up on the whole money thing. Check out the article on CBSSportsline.com, if you really refuse to believe the plain and simple facts: Beane expects to have more money to work with this year than in previous years. The money spent on Loaiza didn't hurt our chances of getting a big bat. Certainly not as much as you seem to believe it has. I don't understand why you refuse to accept that they will be increasing payroll for the right players. We are no longer in a state of financial crisis. We are not stuck at 60-65 million. I don't know how much more plainly it can be put. I don't mean to sound like I am trying to beat the idea into your head, but I am sure you are a smart person (as shown by your work above). Simply relax on the money thing, because it isn't going to hold Beane back this time around. Unless of course you have access to Wolff thoughts and/or accounts. Then, and only then, will I accept that. Until then, I just have to go by what Beane himself sys.
"Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody is watching....." - KW

by PosterNutbag44 on Dec 1, 2005 11:46 PM PST reply actions  

I've been an A's fan too long
Words won't sooth me. Spend the money and I'll be convinced. $7 million annual for Loaiza vs. $10 million annual for Giles, where was the greater need? Loaiza+Witasick = the money kicked free from the Dotel/Durazo/Hatty contracts. Giles would have cost extra cash.

Actions speak louder than words. I think my diary makes a compelling case that if the A's don't add a significant amount of offense they aren't going to win too many more games.

Glad you appreciate the work, even if you disagree with the premise.

I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 1, 2005 11:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Love the new sig by the way
"May our feet be swift. May our bats be mighty. And may our balls be...plentiful."

by nothinlikethetown on Dec 2, 2005 12:00 AM PST up reply actions  

Thanks!
It's honest and the color suits me.
I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 2, 2005 12:02 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeah
Now he is. But I was just using him as an example.
I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 2, 2005 1:05 AM PST up reply actions  

Giles
It didnt matter what money was thrown at him, just saw him on the news saying how he really just wanted to stay in San Diego.  
Bill Stoneman is about to be offered three seasons of a right-handed version of Vladimir Guerrero - Rev Halofan

by pickinmachine on Dec 2, 2005 12:36 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree he wanted too but...
according to this story he was close to going to LA. http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5127728

I think he absolutely wanted to stay in California. In a perverse way it would have been nice if it had been the A's left at the alter, because then you'd know that Beane had the cash to sign Loaiza and make a big splash for an offensive upgrade.

I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 2, 2005 1:08 AM PST up reply actions  

Agree
Better to have loved and lost...

The attempt would have proved ability & willingness. We know $ ability is there.

Still...

...BB seems to operate by determinations made months in advance, ...in other words, he works from a very premeditated plan, with backup choices then adjusts as he goes along.

I tend to think 2006 had it's roster roughed out with key targets in August-October, long range targets 3-5 years ago.

I look at our current players and see players that when considered for defensive AND offensive atribute join MLB's best at the key positions. The way BB got to that was the "home grown" and "flawed star" methodology that has served the A's so well.

If you add some $ to that formula for finishing touches you obtain a kick ass team & roster.

IF

I have been a fan since BB was a player, (Sorry BB I was too young to recall you now).

I'm very acquainted with our budgetary restraints over that time with the exception of the pants guys.

We hopefully are on the cusp of coming full cycle and repeating those successes by filling the gap with these Pants makers.

We have ability
Do we have willingness?
...to be continued.

"...It might have been a great year with a real DH."

by A s Eh on Dec 2, 2005 7:06 AM PST up reply actions  

Close to LA
Because he could still sleep at home, he is in N. County San Diego, and that is about 2 hrs from home.  He wanted to stay in CA, spring in AZ, and a few other requirements.  San Diego was always his choice, what I found so amusing was Sandy Alderson was on the radio about 2pm, his agent at 3:30pm and neither sounded like the deal was close.  At 4:10pm we heard that the deal was done, pending a physical.  I am beginning to believe they create drama for media purposes.  I remember a media circus around the Chavez signing as well, according to the media, tense moments, periods of silence.... (all of this equals a slow news day!)
while I'm GM, I'd get the black uniform tops back into the mix, make high socks mandatory and add a beer tap in the press box-Mychael Urban

by jb on Dec 2, 2005 4:48 PM PST up reply actions  

You can't fool me!
I've spent a great deal of time in LA. 2 hours from LA to SD? Please, most days you can't get 10 miles in 2 hours.
I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 2, 2005 5:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Premise....
Actually, I agreed with pretty much everything you came up with, it was just the last line I disagreed with. And, whoever said it was right, we also have a lot more income this year due to XM radio, the Nats, etc. I realize the need to be sketchy on where the money will truly go, but I also firmly believe there was zero possibility of signing Giles. He wanted to stay at home, S.D. wanted him to stay, it was only a matter of time until they agreed on terms. Giles merely used the other suitors to show the Pads he was serious about getting a contract that'll cover what he wanted. It wasn't like signing Loaiza eliminated the chance of getting Giles, I don't think he was ever truly available to us to begin with.
"Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody is watching....." - KW

by PosterNutbag44 on Dec 2, 2005 12:36 AM PST up reply actions  

Please don't get caught up
in the Loaiza line. And my reply to pickinmachine above you sums up my feeling on Giles.

The main thing I want to get across is how vital it is for the A's to acquire another bat, a bat that can be counted on for 162 games. Those bats are in great demand and it seems that the cost will only grow higher.

I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 2, 2005 1:27 AM PST up reply actions  

Doing the math...
I have the A's at $55 million right now for 2006 including raises for those under contract excluding raises fo rthose without contracts (arby). I have about 58.5 million for 2005 (half of byrnes, chadford, half of kennedy, witasick, payton)

So, there is about 3.5 million left in the budget most of which I expect goes to raises for current players.  Kielty, Ellis, Payton, Kennedy, Witasick, and possibly contracts for Johnson, Swisher, and Street.  So, let's leave $1.5 million to hit 58 million.

Now to get a decent bat I think 3-4 million is what the A's would be looking for, a trade could free up 1-2 million more. Which would be 61 million.  Then, the trick is to get Zito signed.  To make an $11 million per year offer only requires $2.5 million more than 2006, or what we get from the Pirates for Kendall.

Small budget increase for 2007 to say 64 million should cover raises.  In 2008, 8 million from Kendall comes off the books, and in 2009 7.5 million from Kotsay comes off.

So, it there are really three options:

  1. Trade Zito for big bat in the $8 million/year range.
  2. Sign or trade for middle of the road bat in the $3-5 million range, and get Zito resigned.
I think 2 is ideal, Payton and Kennedy free up soem money and are valuable enough to get a decent bat.

by Donner on Dec 2, 2005 4:28 PM PST up reply actions  

With regard to money
I see grover's logic. The money spent on Loaiza was the money saved on Dotel, Durazo, etc. However, (and this is the likely reason for many teams' current spending sprees) every team in MLB except the Nats will recieve about $23 million in MLB distributed revenues from the XM satellite radio deal, the WBC, and the impending sale of the Nationals. That is in addition to the sizeable revenue sharing check the A's will receive thanks in part to the Yankees and their $200 million dollar payroll. They also may be more willing to take on long term contracts due to some serious money coming off the books in '06 being replaced by league minimum talent. (Zito's $8.5  mil, half of Kendall's salary paid, Payton at $4.5 mil, etc) All are likely to be replaced by Barton, Ethier, and Meyer at $300k a piece. All of these factors combined gives the A's a little wiggle room to increase payroll now without having to worry as much down the road. Whether or not the money is put back into the roster (and this is probably grover's biggest concern) or is simply pocketed by Wolfe and Co. remains to be seen. However, the fact remains that even with the Loaiza signing, the money's there to go after a decent bat.
"May our feet be swift. May our bats be mighty. And may our balls be...plentiful."

by nothinlikethetown on Dec 1, 2005 11:58 PM PST up reply actions  

The money info is reassuring
So are all our extra pitchers (Trades)

Money Factor #2:
Uncle Sam seems to have 3 shifts printing those funny looking bills. (An orange+blue+some other color $100 bill will be in our futures soon)
"U-Sam" puts more in than he takes out, this is not lost on businessman as astute as the Fischers, Mr. Wolff & BB.
What I'm driving at is today's Loaisa signing seems fair enough but at "year 3" of that contract it will look like outright stealing.

From strictly a business standpoint; this economy would encourage obtaining players like Gomes, Tracy, Kearns, ... who are 1st &/or 2nd year players, who can also have a very desirable "calming" effect on future salary escalations. Locking the better young players up with offers like Harden & Haren can solidify and improve the roster by spending today's dollars with thier higher value. This strategy could pay off for the A's in multiple ways.
The performance rewards of "pre-peak" players and minimum buying needs at inflated prices pays off quickly in the A's near future.
"Amortization" and savings from todays dollars can provide very real economies in building a dynastic roster. If BB is successful accumulating these types of players the A's will benefit in no small way.
I also believe Zito as the rotation anchor, if willing, is worth every penny required for a 4 year contract and a 5th option year. It is very comforting to have the current #1-5 starters and Saarloos doing spot starts and relief.

BB now gets to have all the fun finishing the roster.

by Billy Ball 2005 on Dec 2, 2005 9:34 AM PST up reply actions  

Money
I agree with grover, I don't think payroll is going to increase significantly, like say jump up to $70 million or $80 million. No way. I think it's possible payroll might be hiked by $5 million, like it did b/w 2003 and 2004, I believe. That's it. Don't expect some huge Blue Jays-esque leap in payroll. We didn't just buy a stadium for peanuts like they did.

by OaktownTribesman on Dec 2, 2005 7:11 AM PST up reply actions  

Exactly
Even if it was hiked five million. That leaves the payroll between 65-70 million (i've read different things saying the A's were at differnt places, though i think it's around 62). Oh hell, lets just say it's increased to 67 million. The A's just added 5 million onto the payroll this year (Loaiza making 5 million in 06). But they also took off Dotel, Durazo, Hatteberg, Rincon, Yabu as well as 4 million in buyouts they had to pay last year. That amounts to about 18 million less than last year. So they've added 5 million in Loaiza. 13 million less. There are also raises for Chavez, Zito, Kendall, Harden, Crosby and a few others. I think that leaves around 5-7 million left. The type of player the A's are looking for (1 year stopgap) will not cost that much. Probably between 2-5.
RIP Bill King "By the Beard of Zeus!" "I don't know if you heard me counting. I did over a thousand"

by ohad on Dec 2, 2005 9:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Excellent diary
Kielty is one of the most important points.  He has little pop  .396 SLG is what you want out of Kendall, not a corner outfielder or DH.  I can't see making him an everyday player of any kind.
A Beane in the hand is worth $60M in payroll

by jeepers on Dec 2, 2005 12:07 AM PST reply actions  

Wow, I had to re-read that one
I thought you said, "He has little poop"!!!
"To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other." - Jack Handey

by JJ on Dec 2, 2005 1:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Great analysis
I really think you are right on the money about the A's offense for '06.  I would put Swisher ahead of Johnson in the 'count on improvement' category.  

While of course they do need another good hitter to DH, I think you sell the team a little short on what they can and cannot achieve.  The A's will never have a top tier offense, its just too expensive and its not the way this team is built.  Their pitching is what has always put this team into the postseason and 2006 is no different.  A guy like Nomah or Thomas could be just enough though.

No matter what, or who they get, if the A's are meant to be in 2006, a lot of things have to go right.  Starting with no significant injuries.  

Teams that have the big gun offense and big name FA starters, dont usually win it all.  Baseball is too unpredicable.

I dont know about you but everytime I wake up in the morning, Im dying to fire up the computer because a trade might have gone down concerning "the next order of business".  I trust in Beane though that he will make the right move.

Bill Stoneman is about to be offered three seasons of a right-handed version of Vladimir Guerrero - Rev Halofan

by pickinmachine on Dec 2, 2005 12:13 AM PST reply actions  

I can't fault your logic and like the way
you look for production from the particular positions.
I also agree significant production increases could be expected from a healthy DJ and Chavez. We all know Chavez is NOT healthy.

Sidenote on Chavez: Much credit has been given to Crosby's lifting the lineup upon his return. I would argue that Chavez started with 2 terrible months, followed with 2 hot months, ended with 1 bad month. The A's hot streak coincided with Chavez, NOT Crosby although his return added much and helped immensely.

Crosby & Ellis realistically will combine for similar results.

Payton is less than Byrnes.

Kotsay & Swisher combine for similar results.

Kendall is powerless

and we don't have a DH (A DH should hit #3-4-5 with frequent power).

Where I hope you err is quantifying ownership's ability and willingness to spend $5-$10 million more to chase the rings now with this fine roster.

Fact is ownership is an unknown and I'm assuming on the optimistic side.

I believe BB must keep it simple just as we. At the end of the season he knows he needs a "margin" of runs scored over runs given. It should also be a given that opponents will be throwing mostly groundballs  and strikes at our players if there is still a power shortage. (Why walk anyone and lose the game over BBs?).
Our young hitters are extremely weak vs strike throwing lowball pitchers (like Saarloos)as was proven by the many shut-outs, 1-run, and 2 run performances we suffered. (Gomes & Frank Thomas are lights out vs groundball pitching!)
Our other major weakness was as you point out, not starters but the backups. Like it or not our A's are brittle and weaker hitting backups got 25% of the A's at bats (It's true, I checked!).

To fix the A's offense requires two players:

DH/3B/OF: This player must be up to playing positions in a pinch. Gomes, Huff, Tracy, Kearns, Glaus...

PH/Bench: Maybe 200 at bats. Eduardo Perez from Tampa Bay vs LHP $1 million, Frank Thomas: I think he'll sign a conditional contract for 2 years and a mutual option @ $2 million per with incentives. No one else will talk 3 possible years with Frank, again, conditional. Frank has same foot-thing that haunted MacGwire so 200-300 at bats is all you get.

-----------------------OR-----------------------

I do not believe Chavez can both play defense and hit with that shoulder in 2006. I prefer having the hitter. Realistically, with a day off on busy weeks, 2 days as DH per week, we may have a decent hitter from April through October.

So who plays 3B when Chavez doesn't? I think Huff can get what he needs from Washington for 2X a week when 3B isn't expected to be as busy, Kearns  maybe, Tracy for sure. Washington would have to evaluate Gomes who has played RF and must have an arm, I just don't know how accurate. My backup is Ellis with Scoot at 2B but there we go with a decrease in production at 2B on a regular basis. (See what a Huff or Tracy brings?).

The money:

  • If Kearns comes Payton leaves = A's are +$3 mil.
  • If Tracy comes Kielty leaves = A's are +$1 mil.
  • If Gomes comes nobody leaves = A's are -$1 mil.
  • If Frank comes nobody leaves = A's are -$2 mil.
  • If Eduardo Perez (DRays) comes nobody leaves = A's are -$1 mil.
  • If Huff comes nobody leaves = A's are -$6.75 mil.
  • If Glaus comes nobody leaves = A's are -$30.0 mil. over 3 years.
A's can trade Kennedy ($3+?), Cruz ($1+?), & Ginter($1.5) and remove about $6 million. That makes everyone above within budget except Glaus.

The real trick is what will it take to get a couple of these into A's uniforms?

"...It might have been a great year with a real DH."

by A s Eh on Dec 2, 2005 12:45 AM PST reply actions  

Great topic
Nice work Grover and AN. I think this is the key issue for '06, because our pitching and defense should be excellent. I think we all remember the frustratingly inconsistent offense from last year; 16 runs one game, 2,1 and 0 over the next three. If we can scratch out a few more runs in some of those low-scoring pitcher's duels, hopefully we won't be sticking Zito, Blanton, Haren etc with all those 3-2 losses.
I'm optimistic about the young hitting talent we have, especially DJ, Swish, Crosby and Ellis. Generally young players will keep improving for a while; HOWEVER the so-called sophomore slump often does occur and I think it has more to do with the league figuring out a batter's weaknesses than anything else--thus forcing that hitter to adjust.  Regardless, I think those four should at least maintain and hopefully keep improving.
Chavy had one of his poorest years last year; it seems like he's been due for a monster year for about 4 seasons now, but I bet he'll improve from his '05 numbers. I also think Kendall might improve having now been in the league for a year; and I hope Kotsy can stay healthy and hit .285 or .300 or so.
I agree, though, that we need another slugger.  Doesn't have to be an MVP candidate, just somebody dangerous who can knock in some runs. I'd feel better about Kielty and Payton if I knew they were backup outfielders--I think they don't hit well enough to play every day. Our biggest hole last year was DH, as Grover documented so well. And that should be the easiest 'position' to fill, you don't even need to play defense! I think we gotta trust that Beane is aware and working to beef us up here. If he can do that and still hold on to Zito, then we're looking mighty for '06 and can leave the Angels in our dust!

by TheBigO on Dec 2, 2005 1:01 AM PST reply actions  

Nice work
I think it's fairly obvious that the A's are probably one power bat away for 2006

by OaklandSi on Dec 2, 2005 7:35 AM PST reply actions  

Projection
Interesting analysis.  My only quibble is that you seem to be simply speculating as to the 2006 performance of the various players.  Wouldn't it be more valuable to use something like PECOTA to try and get a better projection of how we expect these players to do?  I realize that any system like PECOTA is not a perfect solution, but it's got to be better than pure guesswork.

by LoveDemAs on Dec 2, 2005 9:15 AM PST reply actions  

PECOTA
There is so much projection in trying to determine 2006 full season performance from partial 2005 numbers that I figured PECOTA was just as much a crapshoot as my Mark 1 Eyeball analysis.

But please feel free to add a PECOTA estimate to the thread if you like. I don't think we're at the point of data oversaturation! :)

I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 2, 2005 10:06 AM PST up reply actions  

I Just Think You're Wrong
Chavez had his worst year since his rookie season-- he'll be better;

I don't see Kendall repeating last year, though he'll certainly never approach his Pittsburgh peak again;

Kielty/Scutaro will not be the DH copmbo. That's laughable. Whoever it is-- and it may be multiple players-- will be a significant upgrade from Hatteberg;

DJ here all year is an upgrade;

Crosby here all year is an upgrade;

Ellis is bound to drop off and the corner OFs might be a bit worse, might be a bit better (don't forget the Ethier factor);

Kotsay should rebound some.

ALL in all there should be fairly sizable improvement assuming a decent bat is added (say 850 OPS) to plug the OF/DH hole.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Dec 2, 2005 9:20 AM PST reply actions  

So where was I wrong oaktoon?
I said Chavez should be better. I just worry about his shoulder, don't you? Or are you predicting the HOF year so many have hoped for?

I said Kendall should be better.

I said a Keilty/Scutaro DH combo would be pathetic. You said it would be laughable. Do you really want to quible over put downs?

I said a full year of DJ would be a major upgrade.

I said Crosby would be a (slight) upgrade. Is this where I was wrong? Do you think he's going to have breakout year?

Ellis drop-off... yep.

Corner OF drop-off, check. Barring an incredible ST and an injury to one of the OFers currently on the roster, Ethier is headed to Sac.

Kotsay to rebound slightly.

I said the A's need a consistent, productive bat to improve the offense... I didn't say they need an All-Star.

I covered all this oaktoon. You agree with me on every point, so why am I wrong? Is there a mistake with my data? Because if there isn't then the numbers paint a pretty clear picture... the A's cannot expect significant offensive improvement from their current line-up.

I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 2, 2005 9:52 AM PST up reply actions  

The Conclusion is Your Mistake
If you really run the numbers....

Chavez makes a fairly significant improvement at 3B;

So does Crosby at SS;

and very probably Johnson at 1B;

You left us hanguing with the notion that Kielty/Scutaro are the DH and that Beane has spent the money necessary to get a good bat.

I disagree with both points. There will be a significant upgrade at DH;

Kotsay and kendall should both be minor improvements;

Even a slightly reduced Ellis-- playing every day-- will mean a similar outcome at 2B.

Swisher-Payton-Kielty-Ethier- Barton(?)-- should be very similar to 2005.

The point being that there should be significant improvements at 4 positions; smaller improvements at 2 positions; as against very small dropoffs-- if that-- at 2B and corner OF.

I think they'll score 75+ more runs next year. With a pitching staff every bit as good as last year. That makes their run differential +200 or better.

Which means 96-100 wins.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Dec 2, 2005 10:00 AM PST up reply actions  

I see
This is another one of those discussions when we both look at the same set of data and predict different results.

Chavez should make a significant improvement, but that hinges (ugh...pun) entirely on his shoulder. The current thinking is Harden hurt his side last year because he was unconsciously compensating for his left shoulder. What happens if Chavez does the same thing? If Chavez was healthy I'd have no problem anticipating a major rebound, but that's not the reality. That puts a big question mark on Chavez and I'm not going to put on blinders.

If you compare Crosby's 2004 season with what I anticipate he'll do in in 2006 (which is surpass the aggregate baseline from 2005) then you would see a significant upgrade in performance. Crosby has the talent to easily surpass the 2005 numbers but he missed a half year of development and I don't think he's ready to fully utilize his skills. You like to expect the best case scenario when we talk about a yeam's play or a player's development, but I take a more conservative view. I think when you're trying to determine what you have vs. what you need, it's best to be conservative about what you already have in hand. That way you never end up acquiring less than what you need, and if you end up with more than you're sitting pretty. No one will know if Crosby is ready to break out until the games begin in April, but the team has to be built before then.

A Kielty/Scutaro platoon will not happen at DH. But based on the current roster there is no other option! Beane will get another bat to DH, my point was that bat needs to be more reliable then the Nomar Garciaparra's of the world. That kind of option will not work because the A's need someone they can count on to play and perform the whole season and keep Kielty on the bench.

An honest assesment reveals only one player without question ready to make significant improvement and that's Dan Johnson. How is Chavez's shoulder? Where is Crosby on the development curve? And what is the DH's name?

I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 2, 2005 10:41 AM PST up reply actions  

I'd like to input here

Oaktoon: Chavez makes a fairly significant improvement at 3B;
BB2005: Chavez's power is compromised by his plays at 3B creating a drop in power. Chavy was hot 2 months, bad 3 months. Same shoulder is returning.

Oaktoon: So does Crosby at SS;
BB2005: Crosby comes back hot from the DL and cools down to average. Lets see him play an entire season before projecting his "cameo appearances" over 162 games.

Oaktoon: and very probably Johnson at 1B;
BB2005: Agree. DJ has made major adjustments just to get on the roster and I'd expect he will continue adjusting as needed.

Oaktoon: You left us hanguing with the notion that Kielty/Scutaro are the DH and that Beane has spent the money necessary to get a good bat.
BB2005: What if BB brings back Hatte's powerful bat?

Oaktoon: Kotsay and kendall should both be minor improvements
BB2005:
Kotsay was the only one hitting the first 45-60 days, carried the team but ran out of gas too. With his back I'd expect the same results over 162 games.
Kendall is powerless, hit into 30+ doubleplays, and didn't hit that many doubles! He should be hidden at the back of the lineup. #9 spot.

Oaktoon: Swisher-Payton-Kielty-Ethier- Barton(?)-- should be very similar to 2005.
BB2005: BB will not rush Ethier or Barton and if a regular is DL'd forcing a AAA replacement production might be the same but more likely would decrease, esp. if for any length of time.

Oaktoon: The point being that there should be significant improvements at 4 positions; smaller improvements at 2 positions; as against very small dropoffs-- if that-- at 2B and corner OF.
BB2005: Too optimistic

Oaktoon: I think they'll score 75+ more runs next year. With a pitching staff every bit as good as last year. That makes their run differential +200 or better.
BB2005: Assuming who at DH?

Oaktoon: Which means 96-100 wins.
BB2005: We both want this!!!!!!!!!!

by Billy Ball 2005 on Dec 2, 2005 10:51 AM PST up reply actions  

I like this diary
I really do.  It was brilliant to come up with the aggregate line for the position types and provide that to us on this site.  However, I believe you made this too complicated by dicussing OBP, 2B/HRs, and AVG.  I believe those numbers become very meaningless in the aggregate because you've got the most relevant aggregate statitic already in runs scored.  Once you have that stat - runs scored - and you have pigeon-holed a position as being filled by a certain type of bat, the runs scored become the least significant, and it shouldn't be the least significant.

I think that we could just analyze this from a runs scored prespective and then your information would have been more in keeping with the KISS principle...and more relevant too!

by LowcountryJoe on Dec 2, 2005 9:47 AM PST reply actions  

To be honest
I didn't even think to focus on just runs scored. My original goal was to see just how well the A's played last year, and use that as a baseline to determine where they needed to go next year. I was really interested in the how and why, not the what (runs scored).
I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 2, 2005 10:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Here's an Alternative Methodology
A's had an OPS of 737 in 2005, and scored 772 runs.

By contrast the Red Sox and Yankees had OPS of 811 and 805, respectively, and scored 910 and 886 runs.

Translation: for every 1 point gained in OPS, you can expect close to 2 runs scored. Even if it's not that high-- becasue the A's were actually very efficient in runs scored/OPS last year-- figure on at least a 1.5 runs/ point of OPS improvement.

So let's look at our component parts:

Chavez

2005 OPS    795
2002-04 average OPS   875

I think a return to those norms is entirely reasonable-- that's 80 points;

Crosby

2005 OPS   802
(Scutaro OPS   701-- making the SS position about 750 for the entire year)

I think a duplicate performance by Crosby is entirely reasonable-- and he could be even better. That's 50 points of improvement;

DJ

2005 OPS  806
(Hatteberg OPS  677-- assuming 1/3 of the play at 1B by Hatty, that takes the overall number down to about 760)

I think a repeat performance by Johnson (yes, he slumped, but his pre-slump numbers were pretty awesome) is entirely reasonable- that's 45 OPS points of improvement.

DH

Hatteberg was 677; assorted others moved it up a bit, but probably still under 700. I'd be shocked if BB can't get 800 OPS out of this position, and maybe even higher.

That's 100 points of OPS improvement;

C

Kendall was at 666-- his two prior seasons at Pitt were about 800. I don't believe he'll come all the way back, but an improvement of 50 points to 716 seems entirely reasonable;

CF

Kotsay was 716, I believe. But he was over 800 3 of the previous 4 years. A 50 point improvement for him seems entirely reasonable.

That's two-thirds of the A's lineup and probably closer to 70% of their plate appearances, given that only Ellis of the 3 remaining positions will bat anywhere 1-6.

I have a total improvement of 375 OPS points-- assume no improvement from the other 3 positions, and it's still an average increase of 42 points-- probably closer to 45 given the plate appearance proportions.

And that's a conservative estimate.

And Ellis at 280-285 will be as valuable as Ellis-Ginter was last year; Any improvement from Kielty (vs RHP), Swisher or the advent of Ethier could make the corner OF numbers better.

But 45 OPS point improvement means somewhere between 65-90 runs.

And that means at least 6-8 more wins, assuming the pitching is as good-- and it could be better.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Dec 2, 2005 10:25 AM PST reply actions  

Kotsay at 746
my typo.

But the point remains-- he was over 800 3 of the previous 4 years.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Dec 2, 2005 10:30 AM PST up reply actions  

assuming too much health
I would guess that, between Chavvy's shoulder, Crosby's premature male osteoporosis, Kotsay's back, Kielty's too-hard swings, and Beane's inability to manage the health of the roster in general, we're going to miss at least 80 (I'd guess closer to 100) front-line "player-starts" in '06.

Add to that the continued effects of Chavvy's shoulder on his ABs, Kendall's refusal to take a day off, and Macha likely over-playing Swisher, Johnson, Crosby, and Ellis June-July (thereby affecting their stamina down the stretch), and we're likely to see upwards of 50-60 suboptimal front-line player-starts.

(On the issue of an additional bat, I agree with both you and grover in that we definitely need one; and with you that we will likely get one.)

@('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 2, 2005 10:38 AM PST up reply actions  

true enough...
but for all we know Melhuse will revert to form next year;

Ethier will be as effective as DJ was at some point along the way;

Beane will get another bat at the trading deadline;

My fundamental point is that the expected improvement from the players we already have should be a lot more than most on this site-- and grover himself-- believe.

oaktoon

by oaktoon on Dec 2, 2005 10:42 AM PST up reply actions  

This might be a lost cause
But I feel compelled to try.

Yes! Chavez could easily bounce back to the .875 OPS range... IF his shoulder lets him.

No! Crosby will not match his .802 OPS. His 2004 OPS was .745 and if he matches (or slightly surpasses - like I predict) he will see a 25-30 point gain in his OPS. That would be a nice progression for him but it wouldn't be a significant gain for the team. The only other realistic option is Crosby breaks-out and posts an OPS higher than .800. I think the first option is more likely but I would love to be wrong.

We are in complete agree ment on DJ (which means he'll get spiked by Crosby!)

I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 2, 2005 11:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Wait

According to the BJ Book (HAH!) the A's had an overall efficiency of 92%.

That's overall though. Hitting as a team, though, the A's -- you're dead on here -- had an efficiency of 104% (741 runs created vs. 772 runs scored)

Actually, according to the handbook, it was PITCHING that was the A's main achilles heal, efficiency wise... The A's were expected to let up around 619 runs but let an extra 39 cross the plate, for 658 Runs Against and a  pretty poor efficiency of 94% pitching (which ties for worst in MLB) According to the Bill James Handbook, the A's projected to 94 wins... managing a meager 94% with their 88 wins.

Now, I am NOT saying pitching was the A's weakness -- it was its strength. However, it did come up with the worst efficiency score of all teams... Maybe by signing Loaiza BB thinks he can get that efficiency up to 100% which, with Loaiza, means around 600 runs let in, and according to Grover, around 23 runs scored for our team. Still, I think the A's can at least manage 750 runs in 2006, no?

Add a DH that adds 50 runs and suddenly we have 800 RS, and 600 RA. Or so.

Not too shabby, eh??

by Alon on Dec 3, 2005 1:59 PM PST up reply actions  

The analysis is excellent ...
but fundamentally flawed, and I think you recognize that as you ask for a "leap of faith".  The problem lies in analysis by position, whether you are treating positions individually or grouping them.  The A's approach of rarely bunting is based on the premise that it is sacrilege to give away outs.  Extrapolated, this premise suggests that it is similarly detrimental to have hitters in the lineup that don't hit well.  Taken one step further, the real killer is having two or more "easy" outs in the lineup.  One can be overcome, to some extent, but two or more kill rallies or don't allow them to start.
So a far more important analysis would be done by aggregating the stats of the "lineup" at points in time.  That is, what % of the time is the average OBP of the lineup above .330, or something like that.  A methodology like this places a premium on versatility of defensive positions, which the A's already have but don't use to their advantage.  In this manner, you can mix and match positions so that you'll never have a batting lineup that includes Kielty, Payton, Scutaro, Kendall hitting against a righty pitcher.  
As much of a prick as he is, this is also why Jeff Kent (DH, 2B, 1B) would be an incredibly valuable asset on the A's.  As valuable as the big sticks are that Ortiz, Thomas and Durazo swing, those players really need to be on a team where everybody hits because they detract from the team's ability to free itself from the position-by-position analysis set forth in the excellent review above.

by iceplant on Dec 2, 2005 11:24 AM PST reply actions  

I agree with you on instinct
Though I'd like to see (or create if I have a couple of days) some good analysis about roster/lineup construction and modern teams.  A big knock many of us have about Macha, besides the normal manager bullpen management issues, is that he plays people into the ground, only substituting once injuries arise.  

So bench players don't stay fresh, not knowing when they will get a shot, and when they do they feel like they have to prove something to keep getting AB's.  This is one thing about the Baker alou Giants that I do like, they have always had a semi-regular schedule for getting their bench some starts in the flow of the season.

For the A's last year, it was really sad that Ginter couldn't produce, he was one player whose role on the team was taylor made for effective subbing and flexibility.  The right idea for a roster spot, but he just couldn't get it going.

As to the macro level of what level of run production to expect from our current roster, when BTF's ZIPS come out we can look at those.  We can also use the standard three year weighted average with slight age adjustment tool, that seems more reliable to me as a true baseline for expected performance.

Eyeballing it though, this team as it is right now, even with that gaping hole at DH and weak OF, still looks like about the 9th-13th best hitting team in MLB. But since many of those better hitting teams are in the AL, it makes us look weaker relative to league than to MLB.

by jakarta on Dec 2, 2005 11:53 AM PST up reply actions  

That would be an interesting analysis
But I think my wife would make me sleep on the coach if I undertook such a task.
I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 2, 2005 12:18 PM PST up reply actions  

she doesn't already?
I need to find out your secret.  my wife explained to me that the couch is the default husband position, but I can move into the bedroom if I have accumulated enough footrub points.

by jakarta on Dec 2, 2005 12:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Our 2 year old likes to wake up
real early. I usually get uo with him and let her sleep in.

She likes sleep more than foot rubs... although she demands foot rubs too! And back rubs. Head rubs. Time to take hot baths. Etc etc etc.

I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 2, 2005 12:42 PM PST up reply actions  

My almost two year old sleeps pretty well ...
and so does the four year old.  It's the 3 year old screaming at me for milk and the 6 year old who demands I play chess with him at 6:00am that wear me out.  Needless to say, I don't really have time for the detailed analysis either.

by iceplant on Dec 2, 2005 1:00 PM PST up reply actions  

4 kids?
My wife has made it clear that will never happen!

But a question about your original post. Wouldn't an analysis like you suggest have to be ongoing to take into account hot streaks and the like?

I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 2, 2005 1:51 PM PST up reply actions  

4 kids ...
... would certainly account for a few "hot streaks" ...
@('.')@

by monkeyball on Dec 2, 2005 1:54 PM PST up reply actions  

4 kids that close in age
might count as a HOF career!
I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 2, 2005 2:02 PM PST up reply actions  

2, 3, 4, and 6!!!
WOW!!!  That's a bunch in a little period of time.
"To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other." - Jack Handey

by JJ on Dec 2, 2005 1:55 PM PST up reply actions  

I just have to say
That regardless of what people say about your analysis, I have mad, crazy respect for anyone who can sit down with the stats this way and come up with an insightful and well thought out diary like this.

I think you made an excellent point that we can't just look at how the players might improve next year, we have to see if they will possibly improve to compensate for the loss of Hatteberg. The same thought occured to me a while back.

Honestly, I think they can, but I have always been a "The glass is half full" kind of person.

"If I'm not having fun, then I am not playing well" ~Bobby Crosby

by BobbyCrosbysGirl on Dec 2, 2005 12:41 PM PST reply actions  

Thank you
But I think you're just saying that because I said nice things about Crosby. :)
I don't hate, I just respond aggressively to stupidity

by grover on Dec 2, 2005 12:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Well,
It doesn't hurt! ;)
"If I'm not having fun, then I am not playing well" ~Bobby Crosby

by BobbyCrosbysGirl on Dec 2, 2005 12:44 PM PST up reply actions  

excellent job Grover
and may I join the chorus that thinks Payton is terribly overrated and overpaid.
Nobody mentioned the new hitting coach and whether or not he will have a positive effect on the A's hitters and therefore production.  As much as I appreciate the A's discipline at the plate I think it has been too ingrained in some players to the detriment of their production.  According to the new hitting coach's statements the A's will be much more aggressive at the plate, that should help Swisher and DJ, hopefully Chavez will use a little more discipline.  Swinging at first pitches in the dirt is never a good idea.  As for spending more money, if that was the answer no team would ever beat the Yankees.

by china bob on Dec 2, 2005 7:19 PM PST reply actions  

Yes
Really an interesting diary.
I have a question about Payton.... What type FA is he? If he bats solidly this year, can he move to Type A or a similar such position if he is not already???

Perhaps the reason we signed him was to get a little production, but more importantly a high-round draft choice come next year???

Probably not but it just suddenly occurred to me and I wanted thoughts

by Alon on Dec 3, 2005 2:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Needed sufficient time...
...to read your diary. Nice work. I like how you de-bunk the "Payton as a regular" theory. Ironically, I wonder if Beane knew Payton's hottest month is August and acquired him for that purpose? Very probable.

Predicting future performance using the past is a tricky thing. Nevertheless, this is what science is all about. It was important though to stay with the "how and why" and not the "what".

Good job, grover.

 

by bigelephant on Dec 5, 2005 11:55 AM PST reply actions  

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COG #17 - Yankees vs. Athletics or Spank me! Spank me!
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What to do? What to do?
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Fans Should Buy the A's
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Tom Milone's Nickname
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Reality and random thoughts

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