Hazy Shade of Ginter

Who saw THAT one coming???

Answer: Nobody.

Beane delivers another "under the radar" special!

I still say we have Huddy until mid-season.

by Rob @ Athletics Nation on Dec 15, 2004 2:20 PM PST reply actions

If the A's are contending at midseason

they certainly won't let Huddy go...

by OaklandSi on Dec 15, 2004 7:48 PM PST up reply actions

BB said he arranged the deal with the Brewers

during the winter meetings (A's website story). the sportswriters mentioned just about every team meeting with BB over the weekend EXCEPT the Brewers.

Expect more surprises.

by OaklandSi on Dec 15, 2004 7:51 PM PST up reply actions

BB is a magician

and they are very good at distraction. :>)

by Pepper on Dec 16, 2004 9:55 AM PST up reply actions

I dont think he is better defensively than Scutaro or Ellis, but definitely better at the plate. Also can play 3rd to give Chavy a couple of games off. I just wonder if he is this years Michael Barrett or if he is here to stay.

by JSCHWAN on Dec 15, 2004 2:22 PM PST reply actions

#4

Can you say Cleanup hitter.. haha..

"I don't know what the facts are.." - Rummy

by Parklife on Dec 15, 2004 2:31 PM PST reply actions

Ginter

For what it's worth, at about 1 home run for every 20 at bats, Ginter had the same home run/at bat ratio as Jeff Kent last year. Needless to say he's much less expensive.

by SA on Dec 15, 2004 2:33 PM PST reply actions

What are we going to do with a lion tamer?

What?

Ohhh, "Gintner"!

I thought you said

http://www.spaghettibrains.com/CLOWNS/backstage%20bigtop/gunther.html

by McFood on Dec 15, 2004 2:37 PM PST reply actions

I could see Lehr, but...

...wasn't Nelson Cruz a bit much to give up for a 28 year old journeyman minor-leaguer?

by nodaclu on Dec 15, 2004 2:38 PM PST reply actions

you had the right idea...

...it was too much. good trade for the brewers.

it's OK to steal-just don't let billy see ya.

by bigelephant on Dec 15, 2004 6:24 PM PST up reply actions

Nevermind...

I can't read. For some reason I thought Ginter's stats were in the minors last year.

Remember Nodaclu...read the story first.... ;-)

by nodaclu on Dec 15, 2004 2:39 PM PST reply actions

Jeff Kent

Look at Kent's stats, factor in Kent's batting spot, and you basicly have the same guy. The Fleecing of America tonight on the 6'o'clock news.

If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. - J. R. R. Tolkien

by Jordan33 in Santa Cruz on Dec 15, 2004 2:41 PM PST reply actions

So....

Essentially Beane gave up two minor leaguers to get a second baseman who essentially put up Jermaine Dye numbers last year?

I can live with that!

by nickolai on Dec 15, 2004 2:41 PM PST reply actions

bullpen

Ginter looks a good acquisition, but wow - Beane has a lot to do to build a new bullpen now. Who are our signed relief pitchers now? Justin Duchscherer and Ricardo Rincon. Bradford and Dotel are arbitration-eligible; Mecir, Hammond, Rhodes and Lehr are gone. Huston Street and Jairo Garcia may be big leaguers next year or they may not. I've got to believe a proven reliever will be the next big target.

by matthias on Dec 15, 2004 2:41 PM PST reply actions

The F - - - - n' A Trade will involve the bullpen

How could it be otherwise?

by AlamedaAphid on Dec 15, 2004 2:52 PM PST up reply actions

bullpen

The A's picked up Tim Harikkala from Colorado's waivers earlier this off-season. He was a very effective middle reliever from Colorado, minus a horrible September that inflated his ERA 1.5 runs. He could be a Billy Beane find.

The A's also signed Seth Etherton, a former Anaheim first rounder whose career was side-tracked due to arm troubles. He has great stuff and could be in the bullpen if he isn't the 5th starter. Blanton could also start out in the 'pen if Etherton or someone else is the 5th starter.

Lastly, I still think Billy has one or two more bullpen-related moves left. Besides, Lehr wasn't going to make the roster anyway with Street and Mabeus blocking his path. I'll miss the potential of Nelson Cruz, but overall I think it is a good trade. Jermaine Dye production at second is pretty sweet.

by Melissa on Dec 15, 2004 3:25 PM PST up reply actions

Potential of Nelson Cruz

Isn't this guy 32 Years Old - What Potential?

Let's Go Oak-Land!

by Colorado Fan on Dec 15, 2004 3:37 PM PST up reply actions

Wrong Nelson Cruz?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=5868

My Bad - I was looking at the Nelson Cruz ESPN said we traded.

Let's Go Oak-Land!

by Colorado Fan on Dec 15, 2004 3:42 PM PST up reply actions

bullpen

Right - and of course they just got Tyler Johnson from Rule 5 the other day. I have a lousy memory. Still, I'd look for a proven veteran reliever to be added before spring training.

by matthias on Dec 15, 2004 3:42 PM PST up reply actions

Just a thought

according to the AP story Ginter played 2 games in the outfield last year. Is it possible that he could move to left in the event that BB pulls off the Otsuka deal?

by Nick on Dec 15, 2004 5:09 PM PST up reply actions

I hope so ...

because he doesn't have much range at second base.

Everyone on AN keeps talking about Ellis as a savior because of hei great defense. Fine.

But Ginter is the exact opposite. He'll certainly give us more pop than Ellis (which isn't hard to do), but there will be A LOT more seeing-eye singles getting through the right side.

by Eck on Dec 16, 2004 9:30 AM PST up reply actions

repost from diary thread

From a pure production standpoint this looks like a great deal. Ginter was the second most valuable player on the Brewers last year, trailing only Lyle Overbay in terms of VORP- and he did it with scarcely over 400 PAs. Granted, that's like being the talest worker in Santa's workshop- but it's still something.

BP's forcasting system, PECOTA, also likes this guy. Had him pegged at +2 wins above replacement in 2004, which proved to be accurate, and saw a slight decline for 2005 since he's going to be 29 (although it still has him outperforming both Ellis and Scutaro). It'll be interesting to see what the magic oracle sees for 2005 once they respin the data in February.

But those are just the stats. Apparently the guy is a butcher with the glove at 2nd. So much for "defense as the new moneyball area". And it kind of makes you wonder if defense got a little less important once we decided to let go of a certain right handed groundball machine...

LFB 4 ever

by Tim J on Dec 15, 2004 2:43 PM PST reply actions

after Wash

methinks Wash may be able to remove some of the 'hack' from his glove.

Wash is to infielders as Beane is to deals.

by Bleed Green on Dec 15, 2004 3:16 PM PST up reply actions

You make me want to Puke

You Varros wannabe's are now using VORP. Terrible. I can live with OPS, and OBP, but you nerds are killin' me with Bill James Shit like VORP. What were his splits for LHP vs RHP.

Comedy.

For my .02, FWIW, IMHO, I'm ROFL, and VORP. Barf.

He HATE Me JOE MORGANS #1 FAN

by Misfit on Dec 15, 2004 2:57 PM PST reply actions

Was that English?

If you're going to insult people, you should at least make sure your writing is intelligible.

Nerds or not, there's a lot of informed opinion on this blog.

by LD on Dec 15, 2004 3:03 PM PST up reply actions

Psst...

I think she just likes to swear and mix things up.. I just try to ignore the comments.

I think she was mixed up and thought this was a Giants blog. Now, its just too late. The VORP sucked her in.

"I don't know what the facts are.." - Rummy

by Parklife on Dec 15, 2004 3:06 PM PST up reply actions

I see why you're a Morgan fan now

For starters, VORP was started by Baseball Prospectus and SABR members. Voros McCracken crated the Defense Independent Pichting Statistic (DIPS). Both of them are proven indicators of a players ability. What's wrong with them? If you want me to explain how they work, I'd be more than happy to. What stats would you prefer we use? Is there a method to your madness? If you manage to stop barfing, let me know.

Well, you may run like Mays, but you hit like shit.

by nothinlikethetown on Dec 15, 2004 3:35 PM PST up reply actions

I would enjoy it if you

explained to me how vorp or vorps works. Thank you.

by Athletics fan and runner on Dec 15, 2004 3:44 PM PST up reply actions

Sure thing

VORP stands for Value Over Replacement Player. It is a measure of how many runs a player created over what the his replacement would have. Its bascially the difference in production between a starter and his easily acquired Quadruple-A backup were he to get hurt. A replacement player is a career backup, seen one you seen em all player. (Let's say, Mark McLemore) The starter, in this case, is Eric Chavez. If Chavez's VORP is 50, that means that during the season, he created 50 runs more than what McLemore would have created. This can be determined by inserting each player's stats into Bill James' Runs Created Formula (which I dont know by heart and am too lazy to look up). All in all, it's a pretty damn accurate way to judge a player's value to his team based on what his replacement would have been.

Well, you may run like Mays, but you hit like shit.

by nothinlikethetown on Dec 15, 2004 3:56 PM PST up reply actions

thanks

Thank you very much. That is a pretty useful statistical tool.

by Athletics fan and runner on Dec 15, 2004 5:58 PM PST up reply actions

So what's the formula for computing VORP?

.... hmmm?

by River City Slim on Dec 15, 2004 8:17 PM PST up reply actions

Short answer: complicated.

Long answer: very complicated.

This is because VORP, as done by Baseball Prospectus, A) adjusts the actual replacement level by position (that is to say, it assumes a replacement-level shortstop will hit worse than a replacement-level 1Bman, which makes sense-- Damon Minor is a better hitter than Cody Ransom, for example), B) park-adjusts the player's statistics, and C) makes the woeful, woeful mistake of including BP's defensive metrics, which are crap. Seriously, they are. Pick up BP2004-- or Prospectus '05, when it comes out-- and take a look at the defensive ratings they give. They're wildly inconsistent from year to year, just plain worthless. Plus, the formula BP uses is proprietary, so none of the folks who're much, much smarter than I am have had a chance to dissect it.

Yet BP includes its fielding evaluations in the VORP calculation. Inexplicable.

Also, VORP isn't just for position players-- it evaluates pitchers too, and I haven't got a clue how it does that.

by Captain Swordchucks on Dec 16, 2004 1:14 AM PST up reply actions

I think point C) is mistaken

VORP is an offense-only stat. The only way defense comes into it is that replacement level is calculated by position, such that the same offensive production might be replacement level for a first basemen but well into the positive range for a shortstop. (See p.3 of your 2004 Prospectus.) BP has a separate fielding runs stat that's not integrated into VORP.

I don't know how good BP's defensive stats are, but they did show Mark Ellis to be below average defensively both of his two years, which would tend to support your point.

by Faust on Dec 16, 2004 5:03 AM PST up reply actions

Faust is right

VORP is purely an offensive stat.

You might be thinking of 'WARP', which is 'wins above replacement player' and does include defensive metrics. And I tend to agree that they're crap.

LFB 4 ever

by Tim J on Dec 16, 2004 9:52 AM PST up reply actions

NODACLU

I can't read. For some reason I thought Ginter's stats were in the minors last year.

I think there's an argument to be made that Milwaukee is a minor league team. Go with it.

by Uncle Charlie on Dec 15, 2004 3:16 PM PST reply actions

LOL...Uncle Charlie

Thanks for the laugh. I needed it after my goof. Up til now, you very well may be right. Hopefully the new incoming ownership will make a difference in Milwaukee.

And we think the A's owners have sucked for the past decade? How about Huizinga in Miami, Coangelo in Phoenix, Reinsdorf in Chicago, Selig-Preib in Milwaukee, Loria in Montreal.....

It could be a lot worse. (Yes, I know the first two I mentioned won world chapionships, but at what ultimate cost? I'd rather root for a competitive team year in and year out then a one trick pony that's winning 55 games two years later.)

by nodaclu on Dec 15, 2004 3:49 PM PST up reply actions

Huddy and Ginter

Could they both be shipped off to the Phillies or Braves?

Let's Go Oak-Land!

by Colorado Fan on Dec 15, 2004 3:20 PM PST reply actions

Cruz?

by catfish hunter on Dec 15, 2004 3:21 PM PST reply actions

Hazy Shade of Ginter...

Hoo ha! Good one, Blez.

by McFood on Dec 15, 2004 3:30 PM PST reply actions

The only problem

is that I've had the song bouncing around in my head ever since. Oh, well. It could be a lot worse.

by bear88 on Dec 16, 2004 1:23 AM PST up reply actions

Yes, it could be worse

That's an 80s classic :-)

by Tyler Bleszinski on Dec 16, 2004 8:06 AM PST up reply actions

Actually...

Although the Bangles version is my favorite as well, it was originally a Simon and Garfunkel song from the 60s.

by LD on Dec 16, 2004 10:06 AM PST up reply actions

a's lineup

with the trade of getting ginter the a's lineup now has a person in every spot that can hit at least 15-20 homers other then kendal.im just hoping durazo can finally hit 30 cuz we all thought he had a lot of power when he came from arizona.if he does then the rest of the league better watch out.

by twol8iwon on Dec 15, 2004 3:35 PM PST reply actions

Ginter to appease Cox?

. . . Now that I think about that subject line, it's a little weird.

Anyway, maybe BB need to give the Braves a viable 2B replacement for Giles. With the potential baits and switches . . . could the deal now be a Zito/Ginter package?

by Josh @ Athletics Nation on Dec 15, 2004 3:48 PM PST reply actions

Intriguing...

I hadn't thought of that angle before....

by LD on Dec 15, 2004 3:51 PM PST up reply actions

Yeah, it's pretty solid...

A lot of depth, too. It reminds me somewhat of the '98 Yankees, where there were few standouts but oodles of depth.

Just me...

by kaweahkaweah on Dec 15, 2004 3:50 PM PST reply actions

How VORP works

VORP is based on a park adjusted formula for runs created; I don't know the specifics of Baseball Prospectus' runs created formula, but it's based on the correlation of each offensive event (hits, walks, doubles, outs, etc.) to runs scored. Baseball Prospectus also calculates a replacement baseline for each position (first base, second base, catcher, etc.) of how many runs a "replacement-level" player would create per plate appearance. To find VORP, they take a player's runs created per plate appearance, subtract the RC/PA of a replacement level player at the position, and multiply the result by plate appearances. This, then, yields how many runs above replacement a given player is worth.

by Tom M on Dec 15, 2004 3:51 PM PST reply actions

Brewer Fan Perspective

As a season ticket holder to the Brewers for the last 15 years and a die-hard A's fan, I'd have to say I'm very happy that the A's made this trade. Ginter was a deal that was made by Dean Taylor, actually one of his better moves. Ginter last year was a great addition, and many Brewers fans wanted to see him play every day at 2b. When Doug Melvin made the deal to trade Sexson, and picked up Junior Spivey, a lot of fans were upset that Keith didn't get the chance to win the job in ST.

When Spivey got hurt in July, Ginter was put into the starting lineup and promptly got hurt himself. He started off in April very hot, and Ned Yost was really having a problem trying to find ABs for him. With Wes Helms stinking up the joint, he would play 3b, and would also play 2b for Spivey, although he really didn't have any where near the range that Spivey had.

After Ginter got hurt, he missed about a month with a wrist injury, he returned in late August and into September, he was the hottest player on a team that had no hitting whatsoever. He hit 7 of his 19 hrs in September, with regular playing time at 2b. The Brewers tried him in RF for a couple of games, and it was a total disaster.

I can say that over on another blog I visit, www.brewerfan.net, people are really upset to lose Ginter, he was a fan favorite. Personally, I'm pumped that he'll be joining the A's and will be near the bottom of the order kind of player for them. He won't be expected to lead the club in homers, he can just flat out hit. On a personal note, I have found him to be one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, and I'm sad to see him leave Milwaukee, but happy as hell he's on the A's.

Rickey

by Rickey35 on Dec 15, 2004 4:08 PM PST reply actions

thanks for the report

An A's fan and a Brewers fan? so you suffer six months with one and October with the other?

by vk on Dec 15, 2004 4:51 PM PST up reply actions

rickie weeks

i'd guess this means you're gonna get to see the brew crew's phenom rickie weeks at 2B every day next year. that's a trade angle i didn't think to look for... good players waiting to be knocked off by the budding stars. i am happy with this addition. though, i really like the idea of him being packaged to atlanta for giles, cruz and meyer.

by Eric in Atlanta on Dec 15, 2004 6:30 PM PST up reply actions

You can't fool me

The VORP drive was invented by Zefram Cochrane.

by Napasteve on Dec 15, 2004 4:10 PM PST reply actions

Your right

Since then Baseball Prospectus has modified and refined it to make it more telling and accurate. I should have specified. Thanks for giving credit where its due. :)

Well, you may run like Mays, but you hit like shit.

by nothinlikethetown on Dec 15, 2004 4:23 PM PST up reply actions

And...

the trans-flux capacitor was invented by Dr. Emmitt Brown, I believe.

by McFood on Dec 15, 2004 5:37 PM PST up reply actions

and ...

... the oscillation overthruster was invented by Drs. Sadao Hikita and Emilio Lizardo ...

by monkeyball on Dec 15, 2004 7:45 PM PST up reply actions

"Cap'n! she canna take it anymore!"

Kirk (BB?) "VORP Drive! Thats an order!"
Scotty shaking his head; "Aye Cap'n"
Fade out with Bones eyebrows shooting up incredulously

"Billy Ball 2005" or "How to Win a World Series after Moneyball"

by A s Eh on Dec 15, 2004 8:10 PM PST up reply actions

Wrong space-time continuum ...

... but funny, nonetheless!

by monkeyball on Dec 15, 2004 8:13 PM PST up reply actions

Ginter's VORP sounds healthy...

but do we give it back on NON doubleplays?

Texas has tried winning with lots of O,
and tried,
and tried,
and tried,

Camera vooms in on Duracell Bunny (Texas) with battery acid all over the place and stuck in it's own fluids.

"Billy Ball 2005" or "How to Win a World Series after Moneyball"

by A s Eh on Dec 15, 2004 8:14 PM PST up reply actions

I hope he's destined to be Brave!

Giles is the whole package including double-plays

"Billy Ball 2005" or "How to Win a World Series after Moneyball"

by A s Eh on Dec 15, 2004 8:16 PM PST up reply actions

And the companion

Don't forget the companion!

by Sam Dracula on Dec 16, 2004 6:46 AM PST up reply actions

What's really up with Ellis?

Anybody know anything other than A's don't know if Mark will be "ready"? I thought his rehab was on or ahead of schedule - at least that was at the end of last season.

by LongTimeFan on Dec 15, 2004 4:52 PM PST reply actions

I heard torn Labrums can be complicated,

slow to heal, and hard to predict for the more athletic (bad pun unintended), he may never recapture where he was athletically when it happened, and he may be just as good. I'm going by memory here and what got put into the papers when Crosby took him out.

Sorry, Ellis and the team are probably the only ones that truly know and "leaking" bad news would put advantage to the other team on any deals for a 2B.

BB probably assumes the worse and hopes for the best.
If Ellis returns to form BB has trading options, if Ellis doesn't 2b is still fine (With Giles)

"Billy Ball 2005" or "How to Win a World Series after Moneyball"

by A s Eh on Dec 15, 2004 8:25 PM PST up reply actions

If anyone wants to see how bad it can be....

....try to find some video of Jeff Bagwell turning a 3-6-3 double play. He has even admitted that since tearing his labrum three years ago, the only way he can make that throw to second is to be able to plant and throw off his front foot. If he can't set himself, he can't make the 90 foot throw without a bounce.

That's the worst-case scenario of course.

Now imagine all the off-balance throws, falling away from the bag, throws while in mid-air, etc., that a second baseman has to make, and you can understand why BB would be concerned, even if things are "going well".

We'll all just have to wait until Spring Training and see how he fares in game conditions. It won't be a long process. The A's will know within the first week of games where things stand.

by nodaclu on Dec 15, 2004 8:48 PM PST up reply actions

Torn Labrums Can Be complicated...

depending on the mechanism of injury. I believe in Ellis' case, he was diving and collided with "Crash" Crosby. If strictly the labrum tore due to impact and not from a repetitive-use type injury such as throwing, this may prove to be better for Ellis. It's reasonable that after almost a year of rehabiltation in which the initial inflammation has gone down and there has been scar tissue built up in this area, Ellis could have complete return of range of motion AND strength. BUT, the labrum can take a beating with every throw he makes because the biceps tendon will pull in that area with each throw and the head of the humerus bone bangs up against the labrum as well. This can cause a lot of inflammation and depending on his ability to handle that inflammation and pain he may be good for 80% of the games per week vs complete recovery. He's reported that he's been throwing a football and a baseball regularly which I interpret as encouraging news. We'll see how he does in Spring Training when the repetitions increase and how much stress that will cause on his shoulder.

by Gerard on Dec 16, 2004 11:32 AM PST up reply actions

Idunno???.

I'm noy buying the idea that Ellis will not be ready for opening day, and even if he isn't, we know Scutaro will be fine. This reeks of trade-to-come...bigtime.

by Force on Dec 15, 2004 4:55 PM PST reply actions

Last I heard ...

Ellis still couldn't throw a baseball

And Scooter is fine, if you think it's fine to have the worst second baseman in the league offensively, and close to the worst defensively.

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Dec 15, 2004 5:17 PM PST up reply actions

are you high?

He's by far not the worst defensive 2b in the leauge, and his offense wasn't bad for a position like 2b, he just didn't fit the model that Beane was looking for, lay off the dude.

If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. - J. R. R. Tolkien

by Jordan33 in Santa Cruz on Dec 15, 2004 6:26 PM PST up reply actions

totally

ha...couldn't agree more; I like Scutaro, and I thought he did a great job. I also thought I read somewhere that his defense was really good...there was some statistic about the 2 best defenders both being on the A's (but I don't have ESPN insider)

Rio Del Mar and the long ass stairs were a lot of fun in highschool, SantaCruz. miss the place.

by catfish hunter on Dec 15, 2004 6:58 PM PST up reply actions

Those stairs...

Those stairs have since been washed away, rebuild, washed away, rebuilt. Where'd you go to Highschool, I'm a Harbor Alumni myself.

If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. - J. R. R. Tolkien

by Jordan33 in Santa Cruz on Dec 15, 2004 7:15 PM PST up reply actions

Aptos

My parents live in Aptos, only a couple blocks from those stairs. I'm visiting them for 4 days this weekend...I think I'll take a walk on those stairs for old times sake.

Thanks.

Let's Go Oak-Land!

by Colorado Fan on Dec 15, 2004 7:54 PM PST up reply actions

I was an outsider

:-)
I went to school in Pleasanton (Amador Valley), but any time we went to the beach, it was @ Rio Del.

crazy to hear about the stairs getting washed out / rebuilt / washed out...

the toughest part was carrying the cooler and everything else back up the stairs after a day at the beach.

"locals only, brau"
good memories

by catfish hunter on Dec 16, 2004 9:52 AM PST up reply actions

Actually Catfish...

the hardest part was having to drive back over 17 to P-Town!!! Looking back, I think of all the accidents on that highway and how many drunks must have driven over that pass on a saturday or sunday night. Man, sometimes I don't know why I'm still here. What year did you graduate from Amador? -87 for me.

by Force on Dec 16, 2004 11:24 AM PST up reply actions

Ellis

A lot of asking what is up with Ellis.
2 points.

Actions speak louder than words. With this aqusition clearly the A's feel they need a 2nd baseman so not matter what they say they can not think his chances are real good.
Is Ellis a little over rated? Great Defensively but his offensive is really not that great. I would say it sucks.

2003 numbers BA 248 OBP .313 SLUG .371 OPS .684

by novaoakland on Dec 15, 2004 5:17 PM PST reply actions

But look at 2002...

OBP SLG AVG
.359 .394 .272

Ellis is only 27, and still has a lot of upside IF he can recover from this injury. I like the Ginter trade for the depth/insurance it provides, but I wouldn't count Ellis out just yet.

by andyinfremont on Dec 15, 2004 6:16 PM PST up reply actions

too bad for Ellis

I agree that this doesn't look good for his recovery right now (and I feel for the guy; what a bummer injury) but he really wasn't much offensively.

i don't know how you determine how many runs a bad fielder will lose, vs. better hitting; I'd say about even?

I'm still a bit leery about having traded Cruz, but Milwaukee needs some love (hi-5 to the Brewers/A's fan for the report), and I'm close enough that I"ll go see some Brewers games this year..

by catfish hunter on Dec 15, 2004 5:33 PM PST reply actions

I Think Ginter Isn't Going to Be Here Long

He's a decent hitter, for sure, but he is not a major-league level second baseman fielding-wise, and with Mulder and maybe Hudson on our staff, we can't give away that position to someone who can't excel in the field. (Any doubters should cast their minds back to the desperate calls to stop playing McLemore out there this past season.)

I think we got him to move him in another, bigger deal.

by jrbh on Dec 15, 2004 6:11 PM PST reply actions

disagree

Let Wash work with him for during Spring Training. I remember the end of 2 years ago, Crosby threw everything a way, look at him now, one of the most accurate SS in the league.

If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. - J. R. R. Tolkien

by Jordan33 in Santa Cruz on Dec 15, 2004 6:28 PM PST up reply actions

christ, i hope so...

...this trade sucks short and long term. this ginter dude might be "a nice guy" and maybe he closed his eyes, got lucky and hit 19 hrs last yr but shit lehr AND cruz???? beane must've been into the chardonnay in napa today.

it's OK to steal-just don't let billy see ya.

by bigelephant on Dec 15, 2004 6:39 PM PST up reply actions

well...

I was never to high up on Lehr, he got his fair share of chances last year, he's getting old to stick around in AAA. He's not a real specialist and I don't think he can cut it as a setup guy right now, and at 27-28, it's hard to wait. Especially with our upcoming RP prospects. Cruz I don't know about what I've read about him he sounds great but Beane might be hiding something from us.

I think your lucky comment is unwarented. A guy that hit's .270 / 19 / 60, at 2b, and is cheap is alright in my book. Not to mention he is a righty. I honestly see the only bad out of this trade is losing Nelson Cruz.

If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. - J. R. R. Tolkien

by Jordan33 in Santa Cruz on Dec 15, 2004 6:54 PM PST up reply actions

Don't be dumb

Ginter is better than Ellis and Scooty Scoots. We gave up Lehr, who is one of approximately 1,295 average right handed relievers in the talent pool. Good trade, whether Ginter starts, adds depth to possibly the worst bench in the league, or is trade bait.

by Tony on Dec 15, 2004 9:23 PM PST up reply actions

Lehr?

yeah that loss is really going to hurt the team this year (not.) And as for Nelson Cruz, he was a prospect, and the A's have an excellent track record for unloading these guys - no more production from them.

by DC in WC on Dec 16, 2004 11:22 AM PST up reply actions

besides dotel

who in the a's bullpen throw mid to high 90's with nice breaking stuff making around $300,000?
NOBODY. oh, the a's had one but beane just traded him.

i'm NOT saying lehr was anything special but the a's just traded something they now don't have FOR something they already had- back-up infielders (ellis,scutaro)

sorry, day later and it still makes no sense.

it's OK to steal-just don't let billy see ya.

by bigelephant on Dec 16, 2004 12:12 PM PST up reply actions

True enough...

...on the other hand, it's a little easier to turn a hack into an average infielder, then it is to help a 39 year old formerly above average infielder with a arthritic and sugically repaired knee.

Especially when you bring him back 3 weeks too early and force him to have fluid drained off of it for the rest of the season.

I didn't want to see McLemore out there either for the last month. On the other hand, I found myself feeling a bit badly for him, because he was definitely hurt the entire season.

by nodaclu on Dec 15, 2004 8:54 PM PST up reply actions

about Cruz

from ESPN's report:

Cruz was a late addition into the deal, which Beane said "wasn't a significant payroll hit for us at all."

"There were a few people on Ginter and we felt we needed to step up," he said. "I was starting to run out of options if we didn't get Keith."

also, interesting, are the ZIPS projections for Ginter next year (and Cruz' too, while you're looking)

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/main/article/2005_projections_brewers_twins_nationals/

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/main/article/2005_projections_mets_yankees_as/

by catfish hunter on Dec 15, 2004 7:04 PM PST reply actions

trade bait

I'd have to say we have too many infielders right now, so I would be inclined to agree on the trade idea. The Braves might be willing to talk if we throw in Ginter along with Tim, and get back Giles, a starter, and some serious bullpen help. With the departure of Lehr, and the retirings and leavings of others, we're still thin there. Despite his age for a career minor leaguer, Lehr threw hard and could eat some serious innings.

It just doesn't make sense without thinking there's another move in the works.

by cuppingmaster on Dec 15, 2004 7:28 PM PST reply actions

Not sure if it is trade bait

I don't think this is one of those bait and switch type moves. Like BB said, this move does not hurt the team financially.

Also, the A's get a RH power-bat (sort-of) that they need. But the biggest thing Ginter provides for the A's is flexibility on the infield and the bench. Now, the A's have Ellis (if healthy), Scutaro, and Ginter to choose from for 2B and these guys can come off the bench and be reliable when called upon. I remember in a game last season in September vs. Cleveland, the A's were running out of options and needed a PH to drive in the winning run. Who did Macha have to use? Esteban German. That was our best option from the bench. 'Nuff said about that.

Finally, these guys can spot Chavez and Crosby from time to time. The A's played many, many close games last year, and they wore down in September. And it did not help to have a weak bench. When everyone says the A's have to fix the bullpen first, BB is addressing another issue that was just as critical that lead to the A's demise last season.

IMO, the bullpen was fixed when the A's shit-canned Arthur Rhodes. Dotel and Bradford will comeback. Street, Garcia, and maybe Mabeus will be ready. And I am very sure the A's will get another lefty reliever so that Rincon and Johnson (Rule V Pick) are not the only lefty options to have.

Good move by Billy Beane, adn by the way, Hudson is not getting traded IMO.

It is inevitable, the Green and Gold will rise once again as World Series Champions!!

by Omid on Dec 15, 2004 8:25 PM PST up reply actions

Omid is onto something here

I think Ginter can step in for the following players, depending on our circumstances:

Ellis, either on a medium-term basis (that is, if it takes Eliis until May or June to be fully healthy) or, for the season if need be.
Billy McMillon, that is, a pinch hitter and generic extra player. I doubt Ginter would be much worse in the outfield than ol' lead shoes, and he can definitely play 3d and 1st. He'd end up playing more than McMillion, though, because he's more versatile defensively and a more accomplished hitter.
Scutaro, if Ellis comes back fully and we add another bat. I think this is unlikely however, b/c Scutaro is the only legit backup SS and as Omid says we need to give the kid some days off this year.
Byrnes, an outside chance, but if Byrnes is packaged for Otsuka, it's possible Ginter would end up in LF, basically reproducing Byrnes' hitting, but it seems without the SB.

So I think BB has gotten a guy who will fill a need, we're just not absolutely sure yet which need it will be.

by Nick on Dec 16, 2004 8:19 AM PST up reply actions

Trading Lehr..

Definitely means they think Huston Street can replace him in the Bully next season. Whether it's AAA to start, or the Bigs, Huston Street is going to make his mark next year, and Lehr was only going to be sent into ballgames during garbage time.

Let's Go Oak-Land!

by Colorado Fan on Dec 15, 2004 7:59 PM PST reply actions

Attention all....

The bullpen still stinks.......whats the plan????

what we do in life, echoes an eternity......

by Utah on Dec 15, 2004 8:08 PM PST reply actions

in billy we trust

Have faith, we'll pull off some masterful stuff.

by oaklandgabe on Dec 15, 2004 8:10 PM PST up reply actions

re: current state of bullpen

The A's potential bullpen, as it stands now, would not stink, in my opinion, so much as it would be unproven. Guys like Street and Garcia are (in ability and experience) comparable to where Frank Francisco and Almanzar were last Winter. Now, when they're throwing baseballs instead of chairs, they look like "power arms," not power puff girls.

The bullpen already has, in Dotel, Bradford, and Rincon, guys who have succeeded in the major leagues far more than they have failed. If Street and/or Garcia filled out a bullpen they might stink, dominate, or be mediocre in preparation for domination in 2006. It's rolling the dice with great arms and no track record, but it's not back to the days of resting hopes on Bob Owchinko and Dave Heaverlo, or Dave Leiper and Keith Atherton.

Nico

by Nico on Dec 15, 2004 9:29 PM PST reply actions

Whoah! Back off Dave Leiper!

Dave Leiper was the bomb! He used to warm up Rickey out in left field and we would cheer for him, and he talked to us a couple of times. Then the A's outrighted him to the minors, despite the fact that he had an ERA half of what Mark Acre's was, not to mention John Briscoe. That turned me against Tony LaRussa permanently.

I am secretary and co-founder of the Dave Leiper Fan Club, and as such, it's my responsibility to step forward and shake anyone who uses him as an example of bullpen ineptitude. If the Dave Leiper who last pitched for the A's in '95 was available now, Billy'd snag him up in a heartbeat. Recognize!

by rubin sierra on Dec 15, 2004 11:10 PM PST up reply actions

Tru dat!!!!

by Force on Dec 16, 2004 11:31 AM PST up reply actions

Ginter Stays

is my guess. A lot of people on this thread see him going to the Braves as part of a Hudson deal. And that's certainly possible. But maybe this trade is Beane's way of making a Braves-A's deal possible without involving Giles. The Braves system is good enough that they could put together a package interesting to Beane, and Ginter is good enough (and cheap enough) that he represents a real option at 2B, albeit not one as exciting as Giles.

by complete game on Dec 15, 2004 10:22 PM PST reply actions

Okay Bobby...

... this is a new second baseman. His name's Keith. You play nice, alright?

by Hegenberger Road on Dec 15, 2004 10:29 PM PST reply actions

seriously

:)

by Sharon on Dec 16, 2004 4:50 AM PST up reply actions

Cute! =)

Hopefully Bobby's parents will get him some hazzard lights and a helmet for Christmas this year.

by Jennifer on Dec 16, 2004 6:17 AM PST up reply actions

hahaha

That's too funny.

Sadly, he does need them.

by Sharon on Dec 16, 2004 10:03 AM PST up reply actions

Who needs Giles?

If we pick up a guy with numbers as decent as Ginter and he's signed up for two more years at less than a million per year, why would we want Giles?

Oakland A's = no $$$
All Star 2B = lotsa $$$

This trade is classic Billy: comes out of nowhere and leaves people thinking, "Why didn't I think of that?"

Face it, if Giles comes to town, in a few years we'll be waving goodbye to him or lamenting why we couldn't sign aces Harden or Blanton because of all the money we have locked up in his contract.

by almostreggie on Dec 15, 2004 10:33 PM PST reply actions

Simply the Best

With the Yankees and Red Sox clearly becoming worse (at least compared to last year's squads), as of this instant I think the A's are the best team in the AL.

Great offseason, Billy.

by Jurgen on Dec 16, 2004 12:05 AM PST reply actions

The whole AL West ...

... seems to be improving, actually. I just read that Seattle, having signed Richie Sexson, is now talking to both Delgado AND Beltre. Even if they weren't so active signing sluggers, the Mariners probably weren't going to lose 99 games again this year--guys like Meche and Pineiro are probably going to bounce back. I'd peg them for 70-85 wins, which means there's no crappy team within the division for the A's to beat up on this year.

by rubin sierra on Dec 16, 2004 12:15 AM PST reply actions

Look at the M's Rotation though

Even with that lineup, their pitching sucks.

SP1 Joel Pinero
SP2 Jamie Moyer
SP3 Gil Meche
SP4 Ryan Madritsch
SP5 Ryan Franklin/Rafael Sorinao?

SU Ron Villone
SU Shigetoshi Hasegawa
CL Eddie Guardado

That staff must give hitting coaches wet dreams. The Mariners are going nowhere next year. They've become Texas North.

Well, you may run like Mays, but you hit like shit.

by nothinlikethetown on Dec 16, 2004 8:50 AM PST up reply actions

Idunno...

I'd have to believe that the M's will be better in '05. Last year was an amazingly bizarre year for them as many players just did not perform to their career averages. It was like the whole team caught that crazy Giambi parasite(WTF?) They began thier housecleaning in mid-season and brought up some pretty talented ballplayers from AAA. Bucky Jacobsen is a monster of a DH to replace Edgar, if he lives up to his legend, the whole league better look out. Another player that impressed me was 3rd-sacker Justin Leone. At Safeco Field, there is a contest with a local radio station that gives away a million bucks if any M's player hits the bullsye on thier sign on the left-field second deck facade, give away 1000 if they just hit the sign. Never been done in the history of the park. In one of his 1st games at the park, Justin Leone gave somebody 1 million dollars. And on the very next night, almost did it again, but this time it was only 1000.

So the guy hit a couple of long HR's in the same spot, right? What I take from it was the "magic" of it, the spark it created, and I don't like seeing that kind of magic anywhere but in Oakland.

by Force on Dec 16, 2004 11:54 AM PST up reply actions

I dunno, either ...

Jamie Moyer was 41 ... I wouldn't count on a bounce back season from him.

Pineiro's era has been trending up every year he's been in the league.

Gil Meche has never lived up to the hype (or been able to stay healthy).

All of their young starters got absolutely lit up in their limited time.

Madritsch was solid - but he was also a 28 year old rookie - not a good sign.

Boone is getting old and none of their other returning starters had bad years.

Leone may have hit a couple of awesome jacks ... but he also put up a .216 batting average and an attrocious 3:1 k:bb ratio. And his minor league stats don't project out to him ever hitting for an acceptable average. He's also too old to be considered a real prospect. He was 27 last year.

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Dec 16, 2004 12:49 PM PST up reply actions

What about the Rangers?

As far as I can tell, they haven't significnantly upgraded their starting pitching, which may limit them again next year.

Just me...

by kaweahkaweah on Dec 16, 2004 12:51 PM PST up reply actions

But ...

Texeira, Blalock, Young, et al will be a year older and probably a year better ...

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Dec 16, 2004 1:17 PM PST up reply actions

Mariners

Ha. I live in Seattle for most of the year, and I even root for the Mariners when they're playing against anyone but the A's, but I'm not afraid of Sexson, Delgado, and Beltre at all.

A's strategy: Sign several young unknown players to inexpensive contracts, hoping that one (maybe two) will turn out to be tomorrow's surprise stars.

M's strategy: Sign several big-name veterans to expensive contracts, so that one (maybe two) can be a total flameout and be millions of dollars flushed down the toilet.

Which one will be Seattle's next contract bust? I guess Delgado.

The best thing about the Seattle team at the end of last year was the "kids" they finally brought up from Tacoma in the mid-season shake-up. The problem is that most of them were in their late 20s by then. Bloomquist, Madritsch, Jacobsen, Leone ... all of them should have been developed years earlier, but the Mariners were too busy trying to get something out of guys like Rich Aurilia, Ben Davis, and Jeff Cirillo.

The only promising young player on the Mariners who is really young is Jeremy Reed, and he didn't make the team until September callups. Now there's a guy we should trade for. Mariners are probably stupid enough to give him away, but it would have to be a three-way deal because Seattle is only interested in high-priced yesterday's all-stars, and we don't have any of those at the moment.

by iglew on Dec 16, 2004 5:18 PM PST up reply actions

Thoughts on the trade

I think we keep Ginter. As mentioned above, we need a backup third baseman, a position he can play. And it's been pretty obvious that Beane has serious concerns about Ellis' ability to come back in 2005. And despite our fondness for Scutaro, Beane doesn't want him as a starter again.

Reading between the lines, and one of the Angels blogs, it looks like we offered Cruz along with Lehr because we were competing with Anaheim. Beane said he was worried about finding a second baseman if he couldn't get Ginter. If the A's overpaid, I suspect that's the reason.

Lehr might surprise me, but I'm not concerned about losing him. Cruz's minor league numbers look promising.

by bear88 on Dec 16, 2004 1:32 AM PST reply actions

I was right

I knew we were going to get a Milwaukee 2nd Baseman - I just thought his name was Junior Spivey. Maybe I had it mixed up and knew it was going to be Ginter, but that we're going to sign Junior Noboa to be our head of scouting....

by jubjub on Dec 16, 2004 3:50 AM PST reply actions

Piniero...

...seems like a little bit of a head case, but I think he has potential to be a good #2 or #3 major league starter.

by jrbh on Dec 16, 2004 9:52 AM PST reply actions

Definitely...

...his stuff is electric, but he just can't seem to quite put it all together.

So many guys in the league like that. Harden's 2nd half last season gives me hope that he won't become one of those as well.

by nodaclu on Dec 16, 2004 10:13 AM PST up reply actions

Another thing about Harden...

....what impressed me more then his quality second half was his last start of the season. Forgive my faulty memory here, but I believe it was the next to last series of the season. Harden "guts" out a game without his best stuff. Goes 7 innings, leaves with a 3-2 lead, only to watch Mecir give up the lead in 3 pitches.

The cameras caught Harden heading down the tunnel slamming things as he went.

Call me crazy, but there just isn't enough of that today. This kid came up huge in a game that A's desperately needed, and when he saw it slip away through no fault of his own, he was flat-out pissed.

It was that moment of burning hot, hard core fire and competiveness in him that finally convinced me that Harden is going to be something very special.

Talent doesn't mean much of anything if you don't have a competitive fire burning inside you to stoke it.

I wasn't much of an athlete growing up, but I always seemed to play over and above my abilities because I was hyper-competitive, and had a burning desire to never, ever lose. And, yes I had a vicious temper as a result, but it carried me to levels I would have never reached on just talent alone.

It wouldn't shock me to ultimately see all of the "Big 3" sent packing, and Harden being the one that Billy pays anything to keep.

by nodaclu on Dec 16, 2004 10:23 AM PST up reply actions

If Ginter is a supersub guy for us,

he gives us someone off the bench we can really use for the first time in a long time.

If he plays every day at 2B, though, I see trouble ahead.

by jrbh on Dec 16, 2004 10:12 AM PST reply actions

Will Macha and BB...

...be able to leave that kind of power and production on the bench, when it's so desperately needed by this club?

Can he DH against left-handers and spell Durazo? That would give him additional AB's without taking his right-handed stick off the field.

Hopefully Wash can help. And I loved the comment above about telling Bobby to play nice with the new second baseman.

Maybe that was BB's secret goal here - get a 2B that doesn't have enough range to risk getting glove-slapped by Crosby. :-)

by nodaclu on Dec 16, 2004 10:28 AM PST up reply actions

off the bench

It wasn't that long ago. We had an excellent bench in 2002.

Finding good bench players is kind of tricky. A lot of hitters who might be excellent if starting regularly aren't so hot when they're not starting, whether it's a matter of needing the practice to stay hot or just the personality that objects to not starting. Having two starter-quality players in the same position doesn't really solve the problem if the one on the bench is really unhappy about it all the time.

The trick is to find those special guys who are OK with being the backup and can still hit well even off the bench. Greg Myers and John Mabry were both excellent in that regard, and before that Olmedo Saenz was too. Today we have Melhuse, but that's it.

by iglew on Dec 16, 2004 5:27 PM PST up reply actions

Old Ginter Interview

Here is an old interview/story on Ginter. After reading this, it makes me think this is a guy that BB had his eye on for a while and that he'll be around this spring.

http://www.topprospectalert.com/keith-ginter-interview.htm

In the Spotlight - Keith Ginter

By Jason Blasco

It was early in Houston Astros second base prospect Keith Ginter's professional career, in the New York-Penn league in Auburn. He was feeling the heat of the tremendous pressure that many professional players go through early in their career. In his first 13 at bats, the 10th round pick went 0-13 in 1998. That is when the hitting coach pulled him aside, gave him tips to help him change the angle of his bat and other minor adjustments. Ginter says, "The best thing the hitting instructor told me to do was relax, because I was very nervous in my first professional games."

These minor adjustments really helped Keith Ginter out. These tips helped him become one of the hottest hitters in minor league baseball today, and it turned his career around. He became a hitting machine and put together a terrific first season. In Auburn that year, he went on to hit .315, with eight homeruns, 41 RBI, and 22 doubles. He also tied for the league lead in runs scored. These outstanding stats helped Ginter earn the club MVP honors for Auburn.

What he was able to do at Auburn was just the tip of the iceberg. In 1999, his bat really helped put the venom in the Kissimmee Cobras, as they won the Florida State League championship. That became one of Ginter's most memorable moments in professional baseball to date. At Kissimmee, Ginter's statistics weren't as eye opening as they were in 1998 at Auburn, batting .263, with 13 homeruns, 15 doubles, and 46 RBI. But according to Ginter, "That is one of the toughest things about professional baseball, as you progress to each level, the pitching gets a little bit tougher and you have to make more adjustments."

Ginter has always felt he has what it takes to get to the major league level, and his work ethic is a big part of why he has been so successful this season. A typical day of professional baseball for Keith starts at about 11 a.m., when he goes to the gym, works out, and does his stretching exercises and throwing exercises. Then he goes to batting practice, plays the game, gets up and does it all over again the next day. In the off-season, he lifts weights about 6 or 7 times a week, and does different running regimens to help him maintain the strength that he requires to give his opponents nightmares.

It wasn't until the beginning of the 2000 season that Keith Ginter really took the baseball world by storm and let everyone know that he has arrived. Coming into this season, he really has given the fans at the new Dell Diamond a reason to come to the ballpark, knowing that they may be in the presence of a future major league All-Star. He has been completely dominating the Texas League this season. Ginter's statistics are something that many players would kill for at the Double-A level: .350 average, 18 doubles, 18 homeruns. 65 RBI. These great stats helped him earn Double-A All-Star honors. Ginter describes his Double-A All-Star experiences "as an honor, and even though it was a longer road trip than usual, it was so fun that you can't complain."

It is as if his bat is a persistent whirlwind of power that has given pitchers nightmares, and created a storm of attention from the baseball world. Now it is even harder not to recognize the 5-foot-10, 190-pound new wave second baseman who can hit for power and average, has devastating speed with which he can easily turn a single into a double, and has improving defense. He has caught the attention of Astros assistant general manager Tim Purpura. Purpura told Baseball America, "He has really become a complete player. He plays hard. He has good range. He dives for balls. Offensively, he's done everything. He hits for an average and hits for power."

Success at a high level isn't new to Ginter though. At Texas Tech, he also excelled at baseball. In his senior season, when he was a consensus All-American second baseman, Ginter put up numbers very similar to what he is doing with the Round Rock Express. In his junior year at Texas Tech, he put up phenomenal numbers, including a .426 average, 17 homeruns, 77 RBI, and 29 stolen bases. Although the scouts didn't look at him as much because he made 16 errors, he continues to improve. Ginter says, "One big difference between college and the pros is, in the pros you have 140 games. The level of talent is different also."

Perhaps it has been Ginter's natural athletic ability that has helped him excel in the enormous pool of talent that is the minor leagues. In high school he did very well in football, but baseball was always his main focus. He started playing baseball at the age of seven, and that seems to be what he has always wanted to do, as he has worked hard by practicing three hours a day, hoping to one day make to the major leagues. Now with his career in high gear, one of the hottest minor leaguers plays and waits for the call that every player waits for, their first big league call up. With the Astros struggling this year, the 24-year-old may get a chance this season to come up and play in the major leagues.

by nathan. on Dec 16, 2004 10:51 AM PST reply actions

ginter's stats

one thing to keep in mind, and correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't milwaukee a hitter's park?

by xbhaskarx on Dec 16, 2004 1:56 PM PST reply actions

i checked...

...he hit about the same home/road, hit almost the same hrs. home/road (10/9) and the only place he walked was to the buffet table after the game.

actually, the only stat i found intersting was he hit very poorly during day games.

it's OK to steal-just don't let billy see ya.

by bigelephant on Dec 16, 2004 2:06 PM PST up reply actions

day/night

yeah, i just checked and noticed the day vs night difference as well.

and he did actually hit better at home than on the road, but not by that much i guess...

by xbhaskarx on Dec 16, 2004 2:10 PM PST up reply actions

Ginter Trade/ Seattle Deals

We have needed a solid 2b for two seasons. Ellis has little hitting to offer and I believe he did not have surgery to injury but is letting it heal on its own which can be risky. He may not be able to throw for awhile. Ginter is solid hitter and we won't see a large dropoff defensively after Scuatro last year.
On another note
Seattle took great risk with Sexson due to his numerous injuries last season and Beltre having a career year in 2004(Boras boy) may not lead to another in a different league... $115 million experiment leaves Seattle with no pitching still.

Morada Mudshark

by Morada Mudshark on Dec 16, 2004 2:21 PM PST reply actions