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Around SBN: Jon Jones, Rashad Evans Reignite Rivalry

The Lord of the Dance

Take two steps forward...pause, twirl, one step back.  Now, side step and back.

Billy Beane has been dancing all over the Anaheim Marriott.  He's dancing as deliberately as he can, waiting for serious partners to stabilize.  Braves in.  Braves out.  Orioles in.  Orioles out.  Red Sox trying to cut in.  Yankees standing behind the Red Sox.  Yet Beane, whether feigned or not, has his attention focused on an old friend (DePo).

Meanwhile 400 miles north in the East Bay, AN sits and waits for word that any one of the Big Three pitchers has been traded, which will subsequently result in mass hary-cary.  Hudson, Mulder and Zito have become the colorful bait dangling from the boat while Beane kicks back with a Corona, patiently waiting to see who pokes their head out of the water.

Billy is playing his own private game of up-the-ante through the press.  No doubt that DePodesta wants Hudson, but Billy wants the most for his horse, regardless of who his friends are.  I imagine that a big part of Beane's impetus has been to try and get the Braves involved again.

Beane badly wants Giles.  And Billy usually gets want he wants.  Eventually.  He may not get Giles with this particular deal, but keep an eye on this development down the road.  Especially if Hudson is traded and the A's struggle out of the gate.  Schuerholz is a lot more likely to part with Giles for a pitcher like Mulder or Zito with two years on their deals as opposed to Hudson.

But back to the dance at hand.

Hudson is a chip, but he may not be turning out to be the precious chip Beane thought he was prior to the meetings.  Yes, he has a .700 win percentage, but the fact that Billy is denying access to Hudson for contract negotiations could be hurting his position.  The only teams that would pay that handsomely for one season of a pitcher of Hudson's caliber are teams that will be in contention for the World Series next year, such as the Red Sox, Yankees and Cardinals. The Red Sox and Yankees have nothing the A's want.  And the Cardinals may have pitching to send to Oakland, but they don't have any bats to send the A's way.

I understand why Billy is denying access to Hudson for negotiations because then Huddy would dictate Beane's dance partner.  We all know that Beane doesn't like to have his options limited.

So, where does that leave Billy?  It would appear that only the Dodgers, Braves and possibly Orioles could offer enough to entice the A's into a deal.

Then again, that doesn't account for the three-way deal.

That's one crowded dance floor.

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I think
The orioles are more likely, because Angelos OK'ed the trade for Hudson. They have a lefty fireballer in Bedard, and Brian Roberts, a great second baseman. So i guess we will see. BTW, if we were to get Roberts, where would he hit in the order? Well thats a question for after the trade anyways. Meanwhile, Catfish's AP source is giving me the heeby jeebys.
Beanetown Baby

by ohad on Dec 13, 2004 10:00 AM PST reply actions  

I should say
Angelos OK'ed the attempt at Hudson
Beanetown Baby

by ohad on Dec 13, 2004 10:00 AM PST up reply actions  

Great
Everyone uses that word way too much here at AN.  If any of you have seen Brian Roberts play, he's nowhere near greatness in his ability at either end of the plate.  Sure, last years OBP of .344 is pretty good, but he also struck out 95 times...and a player with barely any pop in his bat shouldn't be striking out that much.  I understand you may be a fan of Roberts, but don't be spreading false rumors about his greatness

by TroyNeelorBust on Dec 13, 2004 10:24 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm not really a fan
And with a trade involving them, it might not be good to get him since we don't have where to hit him. Didn't mean to make you distressed about my false rumors.
Beanetown Baby

by ohad on Dec 13, 2004 10:27 AM PST up reply actions  

Agree
Both Balt 2nd baseman are above average but I don't think either one is as valuable as a healthy Ellis.  Most of the trade rumors with Balt have not been ones I can see pulling the trigger on.  Now I could see a 3 way deal where we turn around and move those players to another team and get a couple of guys we like.
ogallalabob

by ogallalabob on Dec 13, 2004 10:33 AM PST up reply actions  

Beane
Yeah it is so hard to tell what reports are true and which reports Beane has leaked in an attempt to try and get a bidding war going and who he is ultimately trying to move (is it Zito rather then Hudson)  

Though at this point I think he has targeted the player or players he would like to acquire and it is a matter of wether they can be obtained, the price and the number of teams neding to be involved in the trade, (giles for atl. makes sense, wilkenson for wash makes sense, I am not sure most of the other names I am hearing really make this tam better so i think they are just guesses Like LA I could see Jackson, but everyone else mentioned is a mere throw in, just not seeing it.

ogallalabob

by ogallalabob on Dec 13, 2004 10:27 AM PST reply actions  

TRADE RUMORS MIGHT BE HOGWASH
Urban reports for MLB.com. This may all be a ruse to stir things up. So I guess we can all just sit back and watch the dance - and hold our breath until BB comes home.

by DC in WC on Dec 13, 2004 10:37 AM PST reply actions  

Does Billy engage in any thrill sports?
Like skydiving, racecar driving, or nude skateboarding?(sorry, I wanted a third choice)

I'm just wondering if Billy is a thrill-seeker at heart and is throwing scenarios at his fellow GMs just to watch them squirm and get his heart racing?

The fact that Billy can't stomach watching his team play sometimes should discount the "thrill-seeker" label.  But unlike watching a game, Billy's in charge now.

Did Billy ever reprimand DePo for taking his parking space at the Coliseum when they were together?  Could some down to something as simple as that.

by Rob @ Athletics Nation on Dec 13, 2004 10:39 AM PST reply actions  

Trading Hudson...
...is throwing in the towel. I just can't get my head around it any other way.

I know the justification for it -- leaving aside the money for a minute -- is that our farm system is really so productive that we can replace him, but if that's true, why not keep him and try and win the World Series next year? Who cares whether we get anything back for him if our farm system is so damned good? Isn't one year of winning the World Series better than three or four years of Marcus Giles or whoever (before they inevitably leave as a free agent)?

by jrbh on Dec 13, 2004 11:57 AM PST reply actions  

I Don't Know About throwing in the Towel...
   But I agree that trading Hudson may not be the wisest move given that by retaining him it allows the pitching staff a stronger means to help the team win. Last year when the A's went back to play, I believe, NY and/or Boston the BIG 3 lost consecutively and it was Harden who broke the losing streak. Assuming that last year was an aberration with respect to the pitching staff, the team, as it stands now is already superior to what we saw.
   I would be amazed if BB traded Hudson for bullpen help. I don't care how many guys we get, I don't think they'd add up to his talent. The trade would be looked upon as wasteful. If we consider Hudson to be a marquee player then there are only a few players who would fit that mold. Giles is one of them.Nevertheless, I don't think our 2b situation is going to keep us from the WS, but pitching would. Wouldn't we keep Hudson for a year let him go and take a WS win? Absolutely!

by Gerard on Dec 13, 2004 3:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Absolutely, we would ...
But, aside from our rotation, both our offense and our bullpen are probably about as bad as they are going to be in the next 3-4 years.

Sure, we could win the WS this year - any team that is good enough to get to the playoffs (and the A's will be, with or without Huddy) can - but our best chance at actually winning it all is by retooling and making sure that when our offense and 'pen are peaking, our rotation still has what it needs to get it done.

2001 and 2002 our team peaked, I believe it will peak again in 2006-2008.

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Dec 13, 2004 3:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Trade
I really think any trade will at least on paper be a wash for 2005, even if the LA reports are true then I would bet that Jackson would be are 4th starter and Beane has worked out a wy to spend 6 million to upgrade our offense.
ogallalabob

by ogallalabob on Dec 13, 2004 3:49 PM PST up reply actions  

WS
Of course Beane would keep him around if he knew for sure a series win would be in the picture, on the other hand who would support such a trade if it would bring a series.  

our 2b situation may not keep us from the series but the combimation of our outfield, 2b and bench sure might.  We have a below average offense, above average starters and question marks all over the bullpen.  I think Beane is exploring all options as far as improving the other areas and to lesson the fall of the big 3 eventually leaving.

ogallalabob

by ogallalabob on Dec 13, 2004 3:46 PM PST up reply actions  

If Hudson goes
I'll be at least a little disappointed, as I was so looking forward to a Hudson-Kendall battery--well, at least for the first half of 2005.  They both have a heart to win, and it would be fun to see them together.  STILL, in the long run, I trust BB.

by Pepper on Dec 13, 2004 12:40 PM PST reply actions  

Hudson is so hard to move
because he isn't that dominating in the eyes of other teams around the league. I love A's and all but please, some people think Tim Hudson is in the class of Pedro Martinez at the same age. LOL. I can name 12 pitchers i would rather have than Tim Hudson for a game 5/7.

So please, if Beane can move him for a Giles (which Bobby Cox is saying HELL no) and a prospect, the A's got a good trade.

re: Hudson's value
Most dominating start? At boston last year, where he made groundout after groundout. He came into the league as a 94+ FB/hard sink Kevin Brown type. Then he learned how to "pitch" instead of throwing. Which means, in pitching coach jargon, he lost a few miles--he doesn't go for the K and makes more movement instead. Ok, that is great and all, but as your September/October ace? Putting the balls behind your defense to make plays? Um, that is why dominant October starters are power pitchers because they rely more on themselves, not ballpark factors, or the range factor of your 3rd basemen.

I want my pitchers to control the game by striking them out and not having a chance, not by letting them make contact and hit the ball down.

by suggy on Dec 13, 2004 12:44 PM PST reply actions  

Power doesn't matter
These guys weren't exactly power pitchers and they were pretty damn dominant.  

Greg Maddox
Tom Glavine
Orel Hershiser
Andy Pettite

I could go on.

BTW, who are these 12 pitchers you'd take over Hudson and are any of them not yet eligible for social security?

Well, you may run like Mays, but you hit like shit.

by nothinlikethetown on Dec 13, 2004 12:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Pitchers I'd take over Huddy *
*strictly baseball - $ doesn't matter.

Definitely
Santana

Probably
Peevy
Zambrano
Harden

I'd think about it
Sheets
Oswalt
Webb

Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Dec 13, 2004 1:18 PM PST up reply actions  

I wouldn't take half those guys
For a playoff series, over Hudson (when healthy)--

I would take:
Santana
Prior
Big Unit

I'd think about:
Wood
Harden
Schilling

All other suggestions are asinine. Hudson is one of the top 10 pitchers in MLB. Is he as good as Pedro was four years ago? No. But neither is anybody else in the history of baseball. Give credit where credit's due.

by jmoney on Dec 13, 2004 2:48 PM PST up reply actions  

'I can name 12 ...'
OK, that's seven.  Any more?

by iglew on Dec 13, 2004 8:03 PM PST up reply actions  

nope, that's it ... sorry ... he'll have to
make his own list
Relax alright don't try to strike everyone out. Strikeouts are boring besides that they're fascist. Throw some ground balls it's more democratic.

by devo on Dec 13, 2004 10:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Maddox
had a career postseason ERA of 3.22 while issuing only 48 walks in over 190 innings.  Granted Hershiser blew out his arm, but he didn't exactly throw 95 before that happened.    
Well, you may run like Mays, but you hit like shit.

by nothinlikethetown on Dec 13, 2004 1:46 PM PST up reply actions  

name the 12
Not to be a pain but 12 pitchers you would rather have for a game 7. Johnson, Beckett, Schilling, Santana, ok I am beginning to slow down, 8 more. Need some help here...

Just wondering?

by dougald1 on Dec 13, 2004 3:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Game 5/7 Starters over Huddy
Curt Schilling
Pedro Martinez
Roy Oswalt
Roger Clemens
Jason Schmidt
Randy Johnson
Mark Prior
Kerry Wood
Carlos Zambrano
Josh Beckett
Johan Santana
Ben Sheets
Let's Go Oak-Land!

by Colorado Fan on Dec 13, 2004 5:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Um.....???????????
 What the hell is ben sheets doing on that list. He has never even pitched in the post-season, and last year was his breakout year. Why Zambrano, Hudson is better than Zambrano. Why Wood? Hudson is better then wood. Clemens started game seven verse the cardinals and he lost..... Hudson is one of the top 8 pitchers in the game. Better than Ben Sheets, Josh Becket,, Carlos Zambrano, Kerry Wood. Top 5 would be Schilling, Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Johan Santana, Tim Hudson, Roy Oswalt, Roger Clemens in no particular order. Did you guys forget that Huddy is third all time in win percentage? I wonder how many quality starts he has. I guarentee only Schilling, Johnson, Oswalt are the only people that might have better than him the last 3 years.
Beanetown Baby

by ohad on Dec 13, 2004 5:32 PM PST up reply actions  

??? to you as well
I will take Schilling, RJ, Prior, Santana, Halladay, and Mulder (health no concern).  This is totally subjective.  RJ and Schilling are way out in front.  Soon this list will include guys like Oliver Perez, Sheets, and Oswalt.

by Patrick on Dec 13, 2004 6:01 PM PST up reply actions  

If I had one game to win...
Huddy wouldn't be the guy for me...  Why would he be?  How has he deserved that type of cred?  
Let's Go Oak-Land!

by Colorado Fan on Dec 13, 2004 7:49 PM PST up reply actions  

OK true he has not won the game five
OK in the playoffs he has been up and down but half the names on the list are the same, if they have pitched in the playoffs. Pedro, for all the hype is out after 6, Sheet never there, Beckett good in game 7 but hurt half the year before playoffs start. Clemens is only in Hou. and may be gone this time.

by dougald1 on Dec 13, 2004 8:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Winning %
Also to note:
his win% would be much higher if it weren't for all the blown saves.
"Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or the present are certain to miss the future." -JFK.

by sf drift king on Dec 13, 2004 7:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Marcus Giles = holy grail?
Not really.  The negative spin on the winter meetings thus far is that, dangling our most valuable commodity on what is supposed to be our biggest asset--our starting rotation, the best RUMOR we can come up with is one netting us this second baseman with about three full years in the  bigs, a .292 career average and 45 career homers.  Depressing.

It would be even more depressing if the A's pulled the trigger on a deal that netted them even less.  You'd think, "Billy's too smart for that," but I'm afraid he's such a junky for action in the market that the A's might give up Huddy for assorted crap.  Bottom line, Giles is no Rogers Hornsby, but he's the only rumor mentioned thus far that's even a little bit palatable.  

Which brings me to another question:  if the A's do go for a second-baseman, do they then trade Ellis, and what could he net them on the open market?  

by rubin sierra on Dec 13, 2004 1:00 PM PST reply actions  

Ellis
I just do not see getting much for ellis at this point, we have major concerns about his health, I do not see how a team would acquire him not have concerns and want a major discount for assuming those risks.
ogallalabob

by ogallalabob on Dec 13, 2004 2:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Billy Beane sighting
I was in Anaheim all weekend and this morning was the first time I'd seen him or DePo.  They both showed for the Rule 5 draft and then talked to reporters after it was over.  

by duende5000 on Dec 13, 2004 1:22 PM PST reply actions  

and oh yeah
He was outside talking to John Schuerholz when I left.

by duende5000 on Dec 13, 2004 1:26 PM PST reply actions  

Beane should work on Philadelphia
I live here and see them regularly. The talked about deal is Utley and Madson. Throw something else in and make this deal. Madson is the real deal and so is Utley. I'd rather have these 2 than Giles and Meyer. Meyer is unproven. Madson is not while Utley will be the offensive equivalent to Giles. Get this done.

by Sam Dracula on Dec 13, 2004 2:56 PM PST reply actions  

Madson/Utley
Agree--from what I've seen of Madson, he's the safest bet of all the pitchers mentioned: great command (appealing to Beane more than "power arm without command"), has proven he can have major league success, has a a healthy arm with repetoire unlikely to cause injury. However, my recollection is that is was Philly, not Oakland, that reportedly wouldn't pull the trigger on this deal, and I'm not sure what else Philly might want and whether we can/would offer it.

The upside to the less-than-expected offers for Huddy are that it suggests his market value is less than previously thought (probably due to 2 years in a row of missed starts, and the mysteriousness--and hence "difficult to solve" nature--of the injury). The less of a discrepency between Beane's available $$ and Hudson's market value, the more likely Beane could resign Hudson if that became his goal.

Nico

by Nico on Dec 13, 2004 7:04 PM PST reply actions  

You're right
Philly said no to this. Maybe they can restructure it somehow. Madson has an unbelievable changeup, probably as good as Trevor Hoffman's. The problem with Philly is, despite their new stadium and record attendance, they're cutting payroll. On top of that, they're raising ticket prices. Oh well.

by Sam Dracula on Dec 14, 2004 9:19 AM PST up reply actions  

Vazquez
If the Yankees are serious about trading Vazquez, that throws a massive wrench into Beane's attempts to deal the any of the Big Three.

Sure, Vazquez is more money, but at $12M/year he's still a bargain in this market.  And unlike the A's, the Yankees can afford to take on other people's contracts in return.

by Jurgen on Dec 13, 2004 9:27 PM PST reply actions  

re Vazquez' impact on possible Hudson deals
I have always thought Vazquez was an excellent young arm, but still, Hudson is twice as proven and half the price. Different enough situations, and 10-15 other teams who are desperate for an ace, and who think they can win the WS next year if they just get that one guy...
Nico

by Nico on Dec 13, 2004 10:15 PM PST reply actions  

Vazquez, etc.
Vazquez is not a "value" at $12 million. Just because the Mets are the Mets doesn't mean Vazquez becomes a better pitcher - just more of an incomprehensible commodity (in light of say, Hudson's availability). Inflation here is rampent. Either teams are pressing to demonstrate activity and reel in a name draw or fans are thumbing off reasonable trade rumors like they're ready to game with Beane. Blez's Lord of the Dance lays out a nice template for critical thinkers of player value, particularly Hudson's. One year of top shelf pitcher at $6.75 per. Unsigned is limited. I may be naive to ask but what about working with Hudson and agent on a sign and trade possibility with the understanding that - as another option and to the right team - Hudson would accept (say0 a 4 year extension at (enter figure here) and give the A's some leverage to bring back the best package?
5 years, the first at 6.75? A team could build around that and it seems reasonable to think that could give the A's the return on their Heart and Soul the faithful think he's worth.
If it's broken, fix it.

by Bosnian on Dec 13, 2004 11:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Gammons on Dan Patrick - Huddy Trade
He said that the Dodgers were far from having enough talent to get Hudson.  I don't know about that:  Brazo, Jackon, Perez, Hanrahan, and Guzman are all young, cheap players that you think would have interested Beane.  

He also said something very odd: Depo offered Jackson and Choi to the Blue Jays for Lilly and Rios and then would have used those two as the centerpieces for the A's trade.  Why would the A's want Lilly back when we traded him for Kielty (bag of scuffed ball)?  Very odd to me and to be honest all these trade rumors are getting even odder.  As of now, I'd take Baltimore, Atlanta (latest with Meyer, Fornasomething, and other), or LA (if they added Guzman or Brazo with Jackson).

PS: Look for Hatte to be traded this week.  

by jubjub on Dec 14, 2004 1:28 PM PST reply actions  

Rios
That is one of the better names that I have heard in awhile.  Lilly and Rios is far better than Jackson and chumps (IMHO).  Especially if LA throws in some cash too.  Dunno.  Who knows what will go down.

by Patrick on Dec 14, 2004 1:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Rumors
The Rumors do seem to be getting odder, and quite frankly worse for the A's every time I hear one we are alegedly getting a worse and worse prospect.  I have not heard a rumor that if I were the A's I would even consider doing.  Like the above I would much rather have Jackson then rios or Lilly, (we can go out and buy a equal pitcher for what Lilly is signed for)I also heard ATl was back in but Giles was no longer part of the package.  I have come to the conclusion that Beane thought there would be more interest in Hudson then there was and now can start making plans on the fact that Hudson will be with us opening day.
ogallalabob

by ogallalabob on Dec 14, 2004 2:33 PM PST up reply actions  

true
I would rather see him pitch 2005 and get draft picks than trade him now for sketchy prospects.

by Patrick on Dec 14, 2004 5:24 PM PST up reply actions  

no production
maybe...I think he could be something if the power comes....but ok.  

by Patrick on Dec 14, 2004 8:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Braves Starting Pitchers
Have you seen the Braves projected Starting Pitching Staff lately? Now that Byrd has signed with the Halo's, they have Smoltz, Hampton and Thomsen, and two HUGE holes. If the A's have to trade Hudson, I would suggest the Braves. BB needs to take Schuerholz and TIME/ AOL to the cleaners. The Braves do not want to trade Giles. As a matter of fact, they can't afford to trade Giles. They have nothing behind Giles but Nick I hit .236 Green. So be it. Get the Braves to fork over Marte, Meyer, Francouer and LaRoche. The Braves get Hudson, Hatteburg, and Baker. Let Johnson & LaRoche fight it out for the A's starting 1B job. Ellis will be itching to get back in at 2B. I would be willing to bet his shoulder will be 100% by the middle of April.  
bambikiller

by bambikiller on Dec 14, 2004 9:33 PM PST reply actions  

I like the way you think
Go for the jugular. But might I make a suggestion? Marte is likely to be untouchable and I say to Hell with LaRoche. Take Meyer, Davies, Langerhans and Ramirez for Keilty and Hudson. Meyer and Davies are their 2 best pitching prospects in the upper minors, Ramirez can pitch in the 4th spot and Langerhans if a LH OF with good pop and solid strike zone judgement. If you're going to shoot for the moon and you can't get Giles I say raid and plunder their pitching. Young pitching always has value in trade.

While you're at it how about swapping Dotel for Kolb?

by grover on Dec 14, 2004 9:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Jumpin Jugular
Grover, your comments were highly appreciated. I failed to mention H. Ramirez in the Braves projected starting rotation. 12-4 with a 4.00 ERA. Not too shabby. He was on the DL. Was it anything serious? What would it feel like to lose three starting pitchers? The Braves have got to feel like sh*t. The A's need to play Dr. FeelGood with the Braves and mug their farm system while Schuerholz is under the gun. Hudson is worth it.  Dotel is going to be 100% in 2005. Personally, I would stick with Dotel.    
bambikiller

by bambikiller on Dec 14, 2004 10:37 PM PST up reply actions  

kielty?
Good luck with that one.  Dotel for Kolb..yuck as well.  Kolb is due for a crap year.  Borowski 2005.

by Patrick on Dec 14, 2004 10:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Braves
I also get the impression that Beane has thought of a way to spend the 6-7 million savings wether it is to sign Plonco to play 2b or some other avenue.  So that if he can get 3 good prospects sign a vetern to improve the team this type of trade might be workable.
ogallalabob

by ogallalabob on Dec 15, 2004 1:47 PM PST up reply actions  

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