Hot Stove Open Thread

Arroyo/Kim for Hudson a bad joke

And I'm not laughing.

I didn't note from the article any connection between who Tampa is shopping and the A's. Looking at that list I hope there isn't any connection, at least not with the Big 3.

by OaklandSi on Nov 11, 2004 9:39 AM PST reply actions

Tampa Connection

Agreed, no connection to the A's. We have talked allot about Huff on the site. We have also been speculating if Huff was available. Can't see BB moving Huddy, Z, or MM for any combo of these players.

"Not the fucking ducks again." Tony S.

by rook on Nov 11, 2004 9:43 AM PST up reply actions

ROFLMAO

Arroyo and B-K?

I fell on the floor when I read that on espn.com, and then I fell on the floor again when I read rook's posting.

Theo Epstein has cojones, I'll give him that:

"Hey, Billy boy -- your sh&$ does work in the playoffs! I proved it! Well, John Henry's credit line proved it. But I digress. See, Billy, I'm an Ivy League gradjooit. I can use words like 'digress.' Anyway, I hear Schott has to re-gild the bidets in his guest wing and he's making you float Hudson. Howzabout we send you Arroyo and B-K. What? You'd rather have just Arroyo? Oh, you're kidding. How about if we throw in Red-Light Curt's Bloody Sock? Mighty inspirational -- and you could probably get five figures for it on eBay. That might let Schott buy another couple of French truffle-hunting pigs and that Airedale he's had his eye on. And I'll sweeten the deal by letting you kiss my World Series ring next time you're in town. No? Well, think about it. Hey, listen, Bill, I've got Harvard Business School on the other line. Gotta run. Call me, babe. Ciao."

by monkeyball on Nov 11, 2004 9:44 AM PST reply actions

Bronson and BK

For Hudson? Was Theo taking bong rips or tequila shots when he made that phone call?

If we really want a guy with cornrows on the team, I bet Byrnsie would do it.

by jmoney on Nov 11, 2004 10:25 AM PST reply actions

uh...

Byrnsie with cornrows? LMAO.... I think Barry would be the one to have cornrows just for the hell of it. Cornrows > Mullets. I wonder what inspired Arroyo to get cornrows.... must've been the devil. or maybe he wanted to compete with Damon, ortiz and ramirez for worst hair. And as for theo taking tequila shots while he made that phone call? I think he was on something worse than that....

Gotta Love the Zito.... :D

by GreenNGoldGirl on Nov 11, 2004 10:38 AM PST up reply actions

Or?

I think only bong rips AND tequila shots together would make him think of that deal. Whatever drugs he's got, I totally want them.

Byrnes with conrows would be hilarious. Though that seems like the kind of thing to get a rookie to do.

by Kyli on Nov 11, 2004 10:51 PM PST up reply actions

Yup

Pretty much what he said. I would have loved to been a fly on the wall for that one. Unbelievable BH Kim is on any table, any. Arroyo for Huddy? My arse.

Now what if that package was something like Arroyo, Nixon, and a Williamson/Embree and cash.....might be closer to reality. Love these games....Arroyo and Schilling's sock...LMAO

"Not the fucking ducks again." Tony S.

by rook on Nov 11, 2004 10:28 AM PST reply actions

Gammons

Gammons < T. Long and Ben Grieve's Love Child

by Zonis on Nov 11, 2004 10:51 AM PST reply actions

bizarre...

None of the players or the amounts of the salaries are realistic to Oakland. If the A's are going to trade any of the Big Three then it better be for the bank not for some mid 30 year old has beens.

With the 2004 team we missed the playoffs by one game. If we would have had Dotel from the start instead of Rhodes...we would have been in a totally different situation.

I hope Billy is enjoying the frenzy. When it all said and done he will make a trade that is best for the organization. In Billy we trust....

by Andy907 on Nov 11, 2004 11:13 AM PST reply actions

NOT A joke

Listen I doubt the A's would trade Hudson for Arroyo but it is not a huge joke. And maybe close to reality.

IF you change the Hudson to Zito it looks like a real deal.

Arroyo had a much better year than Zito and is getting better. Add to that that with the additional 4.5 Mil we could sign a solid Bullpen guy ie: Percival, Urbina, Mesa or some one of that caliber and I would take the Deal.

And we address our bullpen issue with little damage to the rotation.

by novaoakland on Nov 11, 2004 11:15 AM PST reply actions

Please avoid...

Mentioning Mesa or Urbina as an A. Mesa is good for nothing but heart attacks, and Urbina is too big of a gamble for the cost. His mother is still missing too, which means he is a train wreck.

"Not the fucking ducks again." Tony S.

by rook on Nov 11, 2004 11:21 AM PST up reply actions

Hudson isn't old

Isn't Hudson 28 also?

Arroyo didn't have a major league quality season til he turned 28. Zito is still a better pitcher -- especially a better big-game pitcher -- than Arroyo, and he's younger, too.

Arroyo had much more run support than did any of the Big 3.

by OaklandSi on Nov 12, 2004 4:41 AM PST up reply actions

Mesa

The Pirates are bringing Mesa back...

by Sharon on Nov 11, 2004 11:42 AM PST reply actions

Arroyo

Arroyo's actually very cheap, he made just over league minimum last season and I didn't see any articles about him signing a multi-million dollar extension with Boston.

Here's the problem. His 2004 season was the best of his career. As a matter of fact prior to last season he hadn't had much of a career as a big league pitcher. Every year you can go through the rosters and find 2-3 pitchers who seemingly come out of nowhere and post good numbers. They rarely repeat that production. I think Arroyo is one of those guys.

He averaged less than 6 innings a start. He's not a power guy who finally put it all together, he's a finesse pitcher who was able to make his pitch every time he needed to. I see 2004 as his career year, and I see him doing a Storm Davis (KC version) in 2005.

I don't see how you can trade an established pitcher of Hudson's caliber for a maybe, a guy off the DL, and a back up corner infielder.

by grover on Nov 11, 2004 11:50 AM PST reply actions

Bronson

First off, I agree that this happens every year. But not every pitcher has Curt Schilling say nice things about the size of their nads.

"Not the fucking ducks again." Tony S.

by rook on Nov 11, 2004 2:30 PM PST up reply actions

Too much time in the locker room

Cajones or not, Arroyo's track record is spotty at best. Kim is a $6 million injury question mark and Youkilis is no longer under-valued.

If Boston's serious about Hudson or whomever than they need to give up Arroyo and let Beane pillage their farm system. I don't think they're going to be willing to do that.

by grover on Nov 11, 2004 2:47 PM PST up reply actions

BH

Kim was a toss in. Putting Arroyo on the table was all Beane was looking for to happen at this stage of the proceedings. Adding Kim is like adding ketchup to your mash potatoes...

Huddy goes nowhere. Funny though, Kim making all that money...what was Theo thinking? What does he see in that kid? That's where stats fail me, I do not care what the kid did in Pawtucket last year... All I can think of is "BOMB, BOMB, BOMB, hey is that kid going to cut his wrist right there on the mound..some one help him....." Brenley's faith in that kid might (maybe) even be greater then Macha's in Jimbo this year. Toss up.

"Not the fucking ducks again." Tony S.

by rook on Nov 11, 2004 2:57 PM PST up reply actions

Interesting...

Huddy's a free agent soon and who knows if Beane will be able to sign him. I imagine he'd be one of BB's targets, but he's also the one most likely to make the most of the FA market. I'd like to think otherwise, but this year will probably be our last with Hudson. His numbers are also slightly better than they would be otherwise since Oakland is a pitcher's park.

Arroyo is making just over league minimum and he's under Boston's control for the next few years. He had a 4.03 era in one of the most hitter-friendly parks in the league, and his peripherals aren't bad either. The fact that this is his first real year in the majors doesn't say much for or against him, except that it looks like they kept him in the minors too long. He pitched a perfect game in AAA in 2003, so it's not like he's out of nowhere. He's the kind of guy BB should be all over, and the deal isn't laughable. It's not one the A's should take, obviously, but if they want to build for the future, it's something to think about. Switch Hudson with Mulder or Zito, and this isn't a bad deal.

Oh, you'd have to leave Kim out, though. Surprisingly his career numbers are great, but he was hurt in some mysterious way and was a complete disaster last season. Arroyo and Youkilis for Zito could work out really well. If Youkilis (the Greek God of Walks) could be moved to 1B or OF, that would be something. Youkilis hit well enough in the majors last year, and is young, cheap, and gets on base like crazy. Plus, it's always good luck to have a Jewish player on the team. :)

by scooter o on Nov 11, 2004 12:46 PM PST reply actions

Youkilis

Beane coveted Youkilis when all it would have cost him was a minor league prospect to acquire him. Best case scenario has Youkilis filling the Olmedo Saenz role of a few years ago. He'll fill in at 1st and 3rd while providing a RH bat off the bench. He doesn't have the pop to play 1st base full time and I don't think he's ever played in the outfield as a pro. Even if he could play in the OF who would you bump?

You can't trade a pitcher of Hudson's value (or Zito/Mulder) for a back-up infielder and a flash in the pan starter. You can get so much more for one of the Big 3.

by grover on Nov 11, 2004 12:55 PM PST up reply actions

Youkilis

Youkilis doesn't appear to have a role on the A's this year. Coming of the bench would not work. You usually don't wanr a pinch hitter who is going to walk. Resigning Chavy means the A's are looking elsewhere.

The A's might be interested in moving Hudson only if they are concerned with a reaccuring hip injury ar received an offer they could not resist.

Jim

by jarforcefatherofforce on Nov 11, 2004 1:36 PM PST up reply actions

Youkilis...

"He doesn't have the pop to play 1st base full time"

I bet he hits more dingers than Hatty. Hatty is a slappy singles & doubles hitter, just like Youkilis.

Let's Go Oak-Land!

by Colorado Fan on Nov 11, 2004 2:04 PM PST up reply actions

Mulder and Hudson's

Numbers are not skewed due to park factors at the Net because both are such extreme groundball pitchers. This may be one of the reasons that Huddy seems to struggle at the Metrodome, because the infield is so hard and fast.

No TV and no beer make Homer go crazy!

by nothinlikethetown on Nov 11, 2004 1:20 PM PST up reply actions

Also

Let's not go crazy about the Big Three here. Their contracts are up soon. Zito seems to be declining, Mulder didn't have a great year either, and they both play in a PITCHER'S PARK. They've got a lot of talent, but I wonder what their value really is at this point.

by scooter o on Nov 11, 2004 12:58 PM PST reply actions

Big 3?

Zito does just enough to tease other teams into thinking that he can still be the pitcher he was in 2002. He's like Kotsay in that you have to watch him over a full season to fully appreciate him. In Barry's case he's not as good as he's perceived.

Mulder pitched with a dead arm. He'll bounce back next year.

And I'm still hoping the A's can sign Hudson to an extension.

by grover on Nov 11, 2004 1:04 PM PST up reply actions

Zito

___
In Barry's case he's not as good as he's perceived
___

You are right, he is better then percieved. I have watched the kid since he came up, he is a hell of a pitcher. He is 26 years old and has nothing but desire to be the best pitcher he can be. I will take that him over Mulder in a heart beat.

"Not the fucking ducks again." Tony S.

by rook on Nov 11, 2004 1:53 PM PST up reply actions

OK

I never said Zito wasn't any good, I just don't think he'll ever be as good as he was in 2002 again. Other teams might and that makes him more valuable as a trading chip than a starter in Oakland's rotation.

by grover on Nov 11, 2004 2:16 PM PST up reply actions

Ahhh

This kills me. I think Zito is a 15-20 game winner for the next 15 years. There are not many who have the potential. The ones that do, Huddy, Mulder, Santana, and Prior you tend to want to hold on too. For me, Zito is the strongest of them all and is built for the long hall. He does not break down, get dead arm, and besides this year has been a pretty incredible pitcher at such a young age.

If we have to build around two of three, my call is for Huddy and Zito. I don't care what the stats say, those are the guys I want starting against the Yank/Sox next year and for the next 5 years...

Now if we manage to keep all three and still have Harden, we could make a run like the Braves for the last 700 years. Just hope we have more then one ring to show for it.

"Not the fucking ducks again." Tony S.

by rook on Nov 11, 2004 2:45 PM PST up reply actions

I love you rook!

finally... someone standing up for barry besides me! I've been watching barry since he first came up too. In the minors, his first game (against the Angels... he got the win!), Cy young year, I've always been watching him. And you know what? I agree with everything you said up there. nicely done rook. :) One thing to add though. Zito has the potential to be a 23-game winner again, and again and again. As said by Barry: "I'm not trying to be cocky, but I set such a high standard for myself. I'm not happy when I pitch seven innings and give up two runs and get a win." You can tell when he's up on the mound and even though they're winning, if he made a bad pitch he's frustrated at himself. He expects the best of himself at all times. Imgaine that. A guy with the aspiration to become the game's best pitcher on the A's for many, many years to come. To me, Barry is a future HOFer. Even if no one else agrees, Barry is a very big part of the A's. It makes me sad sometimes to see his name thrown around in some posts like he's some mediocre pitcher. C'mon guys, one season isn't enough to classify a pitcher. We all know barry is much better than what you guys portray him to be sometimes.

IM- ZitosGirl7528.... You Gotta love the Zitoness of Barry... :D

by GreenNGoldGirl on Nov 11, 2004 3:47 PM PST up reply actions

Zito over Mulder any day

Even in an off year, Zito was a better pitcher than his win-loss record indicates. With a decent bullpen, he would have won 15 games at least. And which of the Big Three has not missed a single start due to injury? Oh, that would be Barry.

kkd in napa

by kkdaz on Nov 11, 2004 3:52 PM PST up reply actions

zito AND mulder over Arroyo any day!

Look at their ages and what they have accomplished -- and Zito and Mulder have done it without lots of run support.

by OaklandSi on Nov 12, 2004 4:44 AM PST up reply actions

I agree too.

This is all troubling to think about. Hudson, the heart and soul, a great pitcher. Zito, the "headcase" but a great pitcher nonetheless, a big game pitcher, with dazzling stuff. When it works. Mulder, also a great pitcher, with injury problems, but it is harder for me to choose cuz he is my favorite pitcher. He has five above average pitches, and whenever he was out there he gave us what we needed, other than the second half. I never thought id have to think about who was gonna go. And with Barry, he is capable of great things. In 2003, he was like 14-12, but his ERA was like 3.35 or something. The only reason everyone is critical of that year is because it wasn't a sub 3 ERA over 20 win season, like the year before. Last year, he lost his coach, and his catcher. He needed to adjust, and it took him the first half. But it was evident that he was starting to get a feel for himself towards the end. And that is what we should base our decisions on. And in a perfect world, we could keep the big three. But for now, that is what we should strive for. Which can you live without AN? Durazo, Byrnes, and some offense? Or our big three. I personally cannot see life without big three. And if they realize that the best chance they have is to all stay together, then maybe Zito and Mulder will sign extensions for 6-7 million a year in two years and Huddy will also take a paycut. We first go for pitching. We have enough young offensive players that can make an impact. Our system is now loaded with offense rather than pitching, though we do have some good pitchers. If we have Mulder, Zito, and Hudson for the next 6 years, we are competing no matter what.

Beanetown Baby

by ohad on Nov 12, 2004 2:36 AM PST up reply actions

Don't die, it's not worth it

Barry was inconsistent most of 2003 as well. His greatest asset is his excellent health record. He is fully capable of going out and pitching like he did in his last start. He's also capable of missing breakfast. He's Jeckle and Hyde and no one, himself included, can explain why. He often has trouble going past six innings. Why? Because it often takes him over 100 pitches to get there. When his curveball isn't getting called for strikes the rest of his stuff is very average. He's a fly ball pitcher, so when he makes a mistake it is much more likely to go for extra bases.

IMO he is the weakest of the Big 3, and with Harden around Zito may not even qualify anymore.

by grover on Nov 11, 2004 4:10 PM PST up reply actions

While all you say is true...

...Zito takes his turn in the rotation without fail! AND he is also the only post season winner on the A's!
All I'm saying is if Barry is #3 or #4 until he retires -- everyone elses jobs are soooooooooooooo much easier.
I think his curve is here to stay, I consider Barry another year wiser.

...just an A's fan,

by A s Eh on Nov 11, 2004 7:41 PM PST up reply actions

What scares me about Zito

is his rapidly declining strikeout rate.

2001 8.61 K/9
2002 7.14 K/9
2003 5.67 K/9
2004 6.89 K/9

He picked it up in his "off" year in '04, but he also threw 20 less innings. He also became an ven more extreme flyball pitcher this year yielding a career high 28 HR's. The problem is that Barry lives and dies by his curve. He still can locate it, but it doesn't seem to be called for a strike as often anymore. (Odd isn't it? Damn QuesTech.) When he doesn't have that pitch, he's John Halama.

No TV and no beer make Homer go crazy!

by nothinlikethetown on Nov 11, 2004 9:07 PM PST up reply actions

I think

what happened is that hitters got used to the curve. I can't remember who said this, but in one series in Boston, Johnny Damon hit the ball so hard and dead on when Barry pitched it there were suspicions of stealing signs or something. He needs to add more er.... flare. hehe Besides, the umpires were evil this year. They always seemed to be against us in big games (did anyone else see that? cOUgh MANNY TRAP CoUgh anyway... Barry has too much left in him to give to the A's for us to trade him. It's not the time... yet.

IM- ZitosGirl7528.... You Gotta love the Zitoness of Barry... :D

by GreenNGoldGirl on Nov 11, 2004 9:16 PM PST up reply actions

Trap

It is still amazing how that umpire didn't see that as a trap when me and my friends sitting in foul territory in left field an extra 200 feet away could easily make out that it was a trap - stupid Red Sox and stupid Manny!

by jumperjh on Nov 12, 2004 1:14 AM PST up reply actions

Tipping his curve

Barry was clearly tipping his curve in the middle of the season. He was "waggling" his glove around the ball while he got the curveball grip on the ball. It was evident even on tv shots.

I got through to Robert Buan on one postgame show to discuss this, and he started off belittling any rumors about Zito tipping his curve; then, when I pointed out the "glove waggle," Robert got realllllly quiet, and then muttered, "Aaahhhh, is he doing that again?"

So, obviously, the team was onto it. I think Zito stopping the tipping of his curve was a big reason behind his second-half resurgence.

by monkeyball on Nov 12, 2004 6:43 AM PST up reply actions

We cant forget

His changeup is also one of the top 6 in the game. Sometimes he just doesnt set it up well. Also, a lot of times he just got his fastball fucking raked. His fastball unless really located pretty much is ineffective.

Beanetown Baby

by ohad on Nov 12, 2004 7:58 AM PST up reply actions

Here is last years salaries...

Hudson $5 million contract with 1 more year.
Mulder 4.5 million contract with 2 more years
Zito 3 million contract with 2 more years
To me, Zito's health and reliability are important to the A's. That he is "less expensive" probably is appealing to Beane and team roster "flexibility".
Mulder and Huddie's salaries are almost a wash. I say if one is to go let's re-sign the one projected to have fewer health issues.

...just an A's fan,

by A s Eh on Nov 12, 2004 8:52 PM PST up reply actions

Zito

Why trade Zito? Yeah, he had a tough year but I thought he was much better in the second half and he pitched a hell of a game against Anaheim the last weekend of the season. He gets the win in that game if the bullpen does not shit the bed. There are not too many guys in the the league that have a curve ball that is that good. He's also got two years left on his contract.

by boatshoes on Nov 11, 2004 3:16 PM PST reply actions

you rock too! :D

IM- ZitosGirl7528.... You Gotta love the Zitoness of Barry... :D

by GreenNGoldGirl on Nov 11, 2004 3:48 PM PST up reply actions

Not just last year

Remember he struggled in 2003 as well. Don't get me wrong because I love Zito. But if Beane can convince some other team to take him to fill holes in their lineup, so be it.

by limecat on Nov 11, 2004 6:55 PM PST up reply actions

you guys need to chill out

i think many are quick to jump to conclusions about trading a member of the Big 3. i think it's foolish to get caught up in a frenzy of potential trades and possibilities. why don't we just trust BB? he may have screwed up with rhodes, but still. He's a guy that turned a terrible team that had Mike Oquist, Tom Candiotti, Jimmy Haynes, Ariel Prieto, Ryan Christiansen, A.J. Hinch, etc. on the staff, into a perennial postseason team. anyways, i'm excited for next season.
by the way, Zito kicks ass. he has been scuffling a bit, but this guy is amazing.

by kookooforkotsay on Nov 11, 2004 5:31 PM PST reply actions

Huddy won't go

Its obvious that Huddy would never be traded for these two. However, this talk does show a couple of things, mostly that the A's will consider trading one of the Big Three. While Huddy won't be swapped for Arroyo, Zito might. Its the additional players in the package that are going to determine this deal. Zito for Youklis and Arroyo might happen. Who knows, we might get Foulke back! ;)

by limecat on Nov 11, 2004 6:53 PM PST reply actions

Keep smoke that crack!

Foulke????????

by boatshoes on Nov 11, 2004 7:38 PM PST up reply actions

Big Three

The only one of the big three that might be traded is Hudson because of his pending free agency and hip problem. Mulder and Zito have lots of time left and they are both excellemt pitchers. They are also human. Zito can overcome a bad year and his performance at the end of the year bodes well for next year. There has to be concern about Mulder last half of the year but he was on a Cy pace up until the end. One cannot give up on him. With the A's it proves you cannot have too many staring pitchers.

The A's will not trade Hudson unless they cannot sign him. In that case they will start the season with him but he will be gone by the trading deadline. Blanton should be ready by then.

Jim

by jarforcefatherofforce on Nov 11, 2004 7:41 PM PST reply actions

Zito

I still think Zito's trade bait, especially if it looks like the A's will be able to sign Hudson to an extension.

by grover on Nov 11, 2004 8:00 PM PST up reply actions

Trade Deadline

Blanton ready for the stretch run? If Huddy is not signed by then, he will finish the season and get us as far in the playoffs as we will go. BB does not trade assets at the trade dealine, he trades prospects. There is NO way Beane trades Huddy at the deadline.

"Not the fucking ducks again." Tony S.

by rook on Nov 11, 2004 8:31 PM PST up reply actions

Hudson

Trading Hudson depends on what is offered. I'm sure that they will be sizable.

Jim

by jarforcefatherofforce on Nov 12, 2004 5:45 PM PST up reply actions

And How Young Is Barry?

Ladies and Gentlemen, Barry is still a "boy" when it comes to starters. He IS durable and never underestimate his determination to succeed. Last year was tough with one of his mentors gone (Rick Peterson) but everybody has to adjust and grow up.
2nd-half Barry reminded us of his greatness, albeit in glimpses. Beane isn't stupid to quickly look at a short term answer with a trade for Youkilis et al because you can't replace what Barry brings to the rotation. I am sure that when BB stated that they may be able to keep 2 out of the big 3 he anticipated what the market values will be when they come to their year before free agency. He probably determined their values to some degree 1 to 2 years ago. Mulder and Zito will be in essence auditioning for BB over the next 2 years to show that they would be worth retaining. Besides, let's not forget that they are still overvalued and underpaid despite Mulder's flame and Zito's struggles.

by Gerard on Nov 11, 2004 8:50 PM PST reply actions

Exactly

Barry is 26 years old. Like I said he has 15 wins in him until he is 40...you don't trade that away, for anything. Let's say 30 wins for the next 2 years, minimum. Is that worth Youklis? Or Dunn? Get real.

"Not the fucking ducks again." Tony S.

by rook on Nov 11, 2004 8:57 PM PST up reply actions

The Big Three, Again

What would you do if BB traded more than 1 of the Big Three?

by rsquared on Nov 11, 2004 9:44 PM PST reply actions

I would think that Beane

had lost it completely. It would be a far worse mistake than not having a back up plan in case Foulke didn't sign, and ending up with Rhodes.

by OaklandSi on Nov 13, 2004 4:37 PM PST up reply actions

OMG

i would got to war with billy beane. I would seriously round up all the angry A's fans and attack.

IM- ZitosGirl7528.... You Gotta love the Zitoness of Barry... :D

by GreenNGoldGirl on Nov 11, 2004 9:57 PM PST reply actions

ARROYO"S Stats

ON the Road 3.09 ERA 214 BA against.
He is a player and giving up zito for him makes us a better team

by novaoakland on Nov 11, 2004 10:44 PM PST reply actions

that would never happen

but seriously folks, get a grip. Billy will do everything in his power to retain the Big Three for as long as possible. . . why do you think he didn't go to Boston? If and when the Three are broken up, it will be because it was absolutely necessary, and no fault of Billy's. Can we bitch and moan about what he gets in return? Sure. . . But don't expect Zito to be traded any time soon. If it becomes obvious that the A's can't sign Huddy and the right deal comes along, he'll be traded. Let's be honest, Giambi and Miggy are no Huddy, and it would be a shame to get only a draft pick for one of the best pitchers in the league. But don't be surprised if Billy lets Huddy play out his walk year and peace out. Don't underrate the motivational factors of a player's walk year either.

In my opinion, Mulder should be the one to be traded. He is the most injury-prone, I question his mental makeup (forearm injury my ass), and he is the most-overvalued of the Three. Everyone who underrates Barry Zito, where were you that Game 3 of the ALDS vs Mussina, with posada's solo pop-up that barely made it to the scoreboard ledge cause it was a day game, and mini-G's non-slide? Cause if you saw that game, or ANY of the other wondrous mussina/zito matchups of recent years, there'd be no way you could challenge the talent or heart of Barry Zito. I do question his ability to focus on a pitch-to-pitch basis thru the course of a whole season tho. . .

by kotsbots on Nov 11, 2004 11:04 PM PST reply actions

Posada's "pop-up"

I was there and I think it was a night game. I agree that we should keep Zito. But i disagree with trading Mulder. I don't think that we should trade any of the big 3. The A's are a stronger team with all of them.

by boatshoes on Nov 11, 2004 11:46 PM PST up reply actions

It was an evening game

It started in the light, i know that. I dont remember when the actual homer was.

Beanetown Baby

by ohad on Nov 12, 2004 2:27 AM PST up reply actions

It was early on,

3rd or 4th inning maybe. The real turning point of that game was also early, when Mussina grooved a fastball to Chavez with, I think, 2 runners on and he crushed it, but got out in front and pulled it way foul. I remember thinking, "Uh oh, that was our chance to win it right there."

by Nick on Nov 12, 2004 8:00 AM PST up reply actions

Dude

The posada HR was in the seventh wasn't it?

Beanetown Baby

by ohad on Nov 12, 2004 8:18 AM PST up reply actions

5th inning

Here is the link for the series:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2001_ALDS2.shtml

It was one of two hits given up by Zito. Game 4 was the Dye game, and well the last game pitched by Cory Lidle for the A's.

"Not the fucking ducks again." Tony S.

by rook on Nov 12, 2004 8:26 AM PST up reply actions

Uhm, where are we

I agree that Giambi and Tejada would be nice but they would also reprsent our entire payroll. Huddy is still afordable and needed. Until this year when Balco caught up with the bubble boy, he would be worth the price (93 MM), but with Huddy, Zito, MM, and Chavez coming up, BB made the right decision with Chavez at 66MM because he that is below market value for his potential. Tejada is an MVP canidate, and Chavez will be too....at a much lower cost.

"Not the fucking ducks again." Tony S.

by rook on Nov 12, 2004 10:39 AM PST up reply actions

Position player vs pitcher

See Tom Boswell's article in the Washington Post.

by PhillyAs on Nov 12, 2004 10:40 AM PST up reply actions

Pitchers vs Position: Apples vs Oranges

That being said, the most desirable resource -- and least plentiful -- is good starting pitching. The A's are rich in this resource, and must be careful never to squander it.

The Big Three stay for 2005!

by OaklandSi on Nov 13, 2004 4:41 PM PST up reply actions

That's not true

they have a few, but now their prime prospects are hitters. Especially outfielders and catchers. Just look!

Beanetown Baby

by ohad on Nov 14, 2004 6:25 AM PST up reply actions

More..

Street and Garcia are already pretty much in our bullpen. They are barely prospects anymore.

Beanetown Baby

by ohad on Nov 14, 2004 6:26 AM PST up reply actions

Pitching

You simply don't try to conjure up trades of good pitching! The honest truth is: individually the Big 3 are better than what?--60?, 70?, 80? % of the pitchers in MLB! I think you guys are trying to steel yourselves against the eventual day when in fact one or more of the Big 3 leaves. And believe me it's no fun to lose 'your' players. I've lived through the loss of Kell, Fox, Maris and Lord knows how many more of 'my' players.
One thing occurs to me: the big 3 are, in spite of their years of experience, still young. So, if in some ways, they are each still trying to find themselves as pitchers; think about this: none of them have ever had the experience/advantage fo pitching on a staff that included the likes of a Shilling, Glavin, Maddux. No pitching mentor, no pitching role model.
Try this for fun--create an all time 25 man roster of players having the same no. of letters in their last name as you have in yours. Musial in on my team.

by PhillyAs on Nov 12, 2004 6:31 AM PST reply actions

But for how long?

I love the Big 3 as much as anyone. They've given me so much happiness to watch them do the brilliant things that they do. When Zito's curve is on it's a thing of beauty. He's one of the most wonderful pitchers in baseball to watch, and I have no questions about the character and the work ethic of all these guys. However, (you knew there had to be a however) these are the A's we're talking about. We've all seen Damon, Giambi, Miggy, and Foulke leave for the big bucks. That's what players do, and I don't blame them. It's the way the world works. Now I'd love to think that Hudson would stay in Oakland, but are the A's really going to pay the $10-14M a year for 4 or 5 years that he's going to be offered by other clubs?

Nothing would make me happier than to see these guys pitch for the A's for the rest of their careers. I think they will be very good pitchers for the next few years too, but the truth is they are too good for us. It's the sad trap of being an A's fan. Everything you love not named Chavy eventually goes away.

by scooter o on Nov 12, 2004 7:01 AM PST reply actions

On The Move Again...

I see where San Diego traded T. Long to KC. Did SD have enough? I wonder what kind of reception T will get when KC comes to town.

Jim

by jarforcefatherofforce on Nov 12, 2004 9:43 AM PST reply actions

I can't believe this

This is what I hate about the offseason. Tim Hudson is bar none the most important player on the team. Their transition from one of the worst teams in the league in the mid 90's to 1998 and the first half of 1999 into one of the best teams in MLB from the second half of 1999 coincides EXACTLY with Hudson's Major League debut. EXACTLY.

Now, people are talking about trading him for B H Fucking Kim and Bronson Fucking Arroyo. I can't believe it at all.

Seriously, even if we had a 0 chance of resigning Hudson, one year of THE MOST IMPORTANT PLAYER ON THE TEAM is worth more than 5 lifetimes of Arroyo and Kim.

There is no reason to trade great players for garbage just because the great players aren't locked in for more than one year. Especially because the loss in revenue from losing more games than in the past five seasons would cancel out the money saved from not paying for Hudson.

Even if they threw in Youkilis (we have no place for him) and their entire triple A team (we have enough damn prospects) it still wouldn't be worth it. I'm going to say it again. Tim Hudson is THE MOST IMPORTANT PLAYER ON THE OAKLAND A'S.

Please stop the insanity.

by RichardP on Nov 12, 2004 11:10 AM PST reply actions

Blame Boston

They're the ones who made the initial offer.

by grover on Nov 12, 2004 11:13 AM PST up reply actions

Well said

"Not the fucking ducks again." Tony S.

by rook on Nov 12, 2004 11:34 AM PST up reply actions

Hudson

I agree that Hudson is the heart and soul of the team and represents the team's best chance of winning a championship. I would hate to see him go.

I also think he is one of the players most coveted by all the big budget teams, and for that reason Beane is going to be barraged with offers from those teams. He'd be crazy not to listen to them. And I think the sportswriters are going to hear about these talks and write about them, and you can't blame them; it's their job.

I don't think Huddy will go anywhere this year. If he does it will be for something really spectacular.

by matthias on Nov 12, 2004 12:04 PM PST up reply actions

The Big 3

I personaly do not see any of the big 3 being traded, but I can understand that Beane will explore all possibilities.

I think he really wants to sign Hudson long term. But if he was going to make a move it would be now rather then in season. Hudson will only move in season if we are out of the playoffs. But it would have to be for a couple highly touted young players. It is not going to be for Arroyo and Kim (even if Boston picks up his salary)

Zito would be the most likely of them traded, because he would also be the hardest to sign long term. But the only reason to trade him for a pitcher would be to try and free up money to use for the Bullpen or for Hudson. (but I am not sure Hudson will sign if you trade away Zito) Besides Zito stock has got to be at a low point and Beane is one who tries to sell high and buy low. Same for Mulder, now is not the tim to trade him his stock will be much higher after a couple of good starts.

ogallalabob

by ogallalabob on Nov 12, 2004 3:20 PM PST reply actions

A question

This may be something that was discussed on an earlier thread, but it's something I don't see here.

When Chavy's contract was being extended, it was reported he was talking to BB about certain assurances that, I believe, was who else was going to be held on to. I have to believe this was who of the big 3.

Now Chavy & Huddy are the elder statesmen of the team & good friends, so my guess is that BB plans to hold on to Huddy, but I could be wrong.

Thoughts?

by OaklandInvader on Nov 12, 2004 3:53 PM PST reply actions

I'm hopefull that's the case

The key is Hudson. If he's willing to give Oakland a hometown discount like Chavez did then Beane will (should) give him an extension.

by grover on Nov 12, 2004 4:09 PM PST up reply actions

No hometown discount...

I heard a radio interview with Michael Urban where he says that Hudson is not interested in giving a hometown discount. Huddy believes he deserves and is seeking a 4 year deal around 50 mil.

by davebenfremont on Nov 12, 2004 9:25 PM PST up reply actions

Ouch

Well, he's certainly earned it. But he won't get that from Beane.

My guess is that Beane will max out at 3 years and $30M, with a mutual option for a 4th year at $12-15M (and with no "poison pill" clause like Jeff Kent's where the option would have become guaranteed in the event of a trade).

by monkeyball on Nov 12, 2004 9:31 PM PST up reply actions

Not good

I could see Beane going 4 years/44 million but not any higher. Hopefully it's all just part of the negotiation process.

by grover on Nov 12, 2004 10:36 PM PST up reply actions

Here's a link

http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/oak/news/oak_news.jsp?ymd=20041108&content_id=911383 &vkey=news_oak&fext=.jsp

Click on the audio link to Michael Urban's comments on Crosby's ROY

Before Urban discusses Crosby, he talks about trading one of the big 3, and specifically about Huddy. You can take it face value, but judging from the time he spent with the aces for his book, he probably knows more about Huddy's desires than any of us.

by davebenfremont on Nov 13, 2004 9:29 AM PST up reply actions

Pitch to Chavy

I remember that thread, and I believe that one of Chavy's concerns was having a big bat behind him in the order. That, theoretically, was Dye, but he didn't pan out.

kkd in napa

by kkdaz on Nov 12, 2004 4:22 PM PST up reply actions

Another hot stove topic

espn posted their "top 50 FA" list.
They've got the A's making moves for Jeff Kent and Juan Gonzalez. If the price was right I'd be happy about both of those plays.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?page=top50mlbfreeagents

LFB 4 ever

by Tim J on Nov 12, 2004 4:38 PM PST reply actions

Uhm

We have been commenting on that crap all day. See Kelly's diary:

http://www.athleticsnation.com/story/2004/11/12/12183/667

"Not the fucking ducks again." Tony S.

by rook on Nov 12, 2004 4:51 PM PST up reply actions

Why

As an A's fan I have pretty much been prepared for time when all 3 are gone. Year after year we see our best players mature and move on - why are we so upset about losing Hudson/Zito/Mulder when it was ineveitable from the start? Sure I'd love to see these guys signed long term but I don't see it happening. I also don't see BB trading them for crap, he will make the most of out every situation.

by DC in WC on Nov 12, 2004 5:16 PM PST reply actions

I would like the A's to get...

... Huff,
Baez (30 saves 4 blown saves on a losing team!) -- Baez is a rubber arm reliever that is effective verses righties and lefties.
.. and Toby Hall; the catcher; who cuts down baserunners like a young pudge, his bat average .265 is acceptable with his d, slightly better verses lefties but only slightly.
What we are missing now are teams #3 & #4 to complete the one ace + a prospect for 3 players swap.
D-rays are behind the 8-ball with the Yanks, Boston, O's, & Jays in the same division. D-rays fans have little hope in the future as well so with a 30 million payroll last year they are looking to "dump" salaries this year! Obviously they will stockpile prospects.
The big negative here is one or more of these players is arbitration eligible.
A's fans consider these Rays woes, ...it can be a lot worse!

265

...just an A's fan,

by A s Eh on Nov 12, 2004 9:10 PM PST reply actions

A's Future

The A's have a problem. After Blanton, the A's have no top quality starting pitchers above the A level ready to step forward. If the lose one or more of their big three, where are the replacements going to come from?

Does anyone know of a website where I can find career minor league stats?

Jim

by jarforcefatherofforce on Nov 12, 2004 10:36 PM PST reply actions

Your website

www.thebaseballcube.com

by grover on Nov 12, 2004 10:39 PM PST up reply actions

The problem with Zito

Here's something that hasn't been mentioned in relation to Zito: he's a prime burnout candidate. He has a lot of mileage on his arm at a young age, and this has to be a concern. He's an inefficient pitcher. In 2004, he pitched 213 innings and threw 3688 pitches. This was second in the AL and third in MLB. The league leader, Mark Buehrle, threw 3696, but that was in 245 innings. To put this in perspective, Curt Schilling pitched 226.2 innings and threw 3412 pitches. Brad Radke pitched 219.2 innings and threw 3341 pitches. Johan Santana pitched 228 innings and threw 3427 pitches.

This isn't new. Zito threw 3747 pitches in 2003 and 3695 pitches in 2002. He's thrown 16141 pitches in his MLB career.

Of course, this doesn't mean that he'll suffer an injury next season or the one after, but it's something to be aware of, especially coupled with his decline in effectiveness.

If Beane can get Wilkerson for Zito, I think that's a trade that he should make.

by FlatStanley on Nov 13, 2004 2:20 PM PST reply actions

Trading zito straight up

Only person i trade zito for straight up is Dunn. Or tejada.

Beanetown Baby

by ohad on Nov 14, 2004 6:27 AM PST reply actions

injury risk

my entirely realistic(tm) prediction is if the big 3 stay with the A's then they will remain surprisingly free of shoulder problems, while if they move on to another organization, they'll be spotty in effectiveness and go down 2/3 of the way through the season with arm problems, mostly due to trying too hard and overcompensating for mechanical problems that the A's coaching staff was familiar with diagnosing.

i'm not sure if throwing hard is necessarily related to injury. there are lots of theories about what different kinds of pitchers and usage patterns make pitchers more suceptable to injury, but clearly no one has it figured out. i know when i played little league they didn't teach the curveball to pitchers becuase of the stress they put on the arm, but when i watched the little league world series this year that's pretty much all they were throwing.

of course, that could also be due to the verifiable increase of evil in the world.

by scooter o on Nov 15, 2004 6:31 AM PST reply actions

very few litle league world series kids

go on to be major leaguers. The only one of note that I can think of is Gary Sheffield. If they throw breaking balls at 13, its no wonder.

No TV and no beer make Homer go crazy!

by nothinlikethetown on Nov 15, 2004 9:34 AM PST reply actions

Gary Sheffield played with...

Derek Bell on the same team. Even though bell is retired now. Also Sean Burroughs of the Pad's was like the world series (little League) MVP or something he was a pitcher i think.

Beanetown Baby

by ohad on Nov 16, 2004 6:50 AM PST up reply actions

Lloyd McClendon or Chris Drury

McClendon played for the Pirates, he had a terrible career, but he hit 3 or 4 homers in a LL WS game I believe. Lloyd is now Manager of the Pirates. Drury plays for Buffalo or Calgary in the NHL now, and he helped the Aves win a Stanley Cup.

Just wait a couple of years and Danny Almonte will be in the show.

by Misfit on Nov 15, 2004 10:03 AM PST reply actions